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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:37 pm 
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So I have been running a horde of white lions 3x10 and its been pretty baller actually. I almost never get to use the back rank attacks but if I do that is always good and I usually run my elites thin anyways but when I run units of 14 I usually I give up VP. I keep getting my WL away once they are almost all dead to save me a whooping 495 VP, after they trashed a unit. WL get flanked anytime my oppenants want to pretty much but actually its ok because they are stubborn.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:09 pm 
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I've heard of White Lions doing well in a unit of 30, especially with strong magic support, though I usually run mine in groups of 21. I often thin my elite units out 10-wide anyway in order to minimize the effect of template weapons, so I can see the appeal of running a big unit 10-wide all the time.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:03 am 
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Location: Vienna, Austria
White lions are the perfect candidates for a horde unit.

They have only one attack, so the back ranks do not lose out on any attacks.
That one attack is so strong it will cut through most anything.
Rerolls to hit guarantee an even higher damage output.
They may be clumbsy, but they are stubborn, so they do not care about flank charges. Get a melee character in and he can make way, which will reduce the dangers of flank charges even more.

Downsides:
Templates and spells that hit whole units. Like with all hordes, this is the archilles heel of the unit. You can ofset some of this with a banner of the world dragon, but making the unit immune to magic means that it will not get any benefits from magic either. In that case you would probably want to run your mages with debuffs, not with buffs, which makes the beloved lore of live somewhat less usefull. On the other side... Who needs dwellers when you got 30 str6 attacks?

The price: 500 or more for a single unit is not shaby, you will probably have to build your whole army with the purpose to support this one unit.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:54 am 
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Location: Manchester, UK
It does work, certainly

I have run a list a few times recently

Arch mage shadow
BSB
lv1 caddy
Noble (sometimes on a chicken)

30 WL
19 Phoenix
WL Chariot
5 DP's

enough spears to fill your min core
2 units of 10 archers for a bit of range

Works quite well, PG's and spears prtect the flanks (so reduces need for melee noble)
DPS & Chariot to add some punch and additional targets

2500pts when populated with your magic items of choice

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:53 am 
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I've recently went to a tournament with two units of 24/25 White Lions with a variety of items. Did not too bad with them with a result of 2/2/2 against tough match ups. The problem with a big unit of it is that a lot of tournaments will likely either comp them out (it is common to have caps of 400pts per unit around here) or hit you hard on the comp score.

If you can put them in range of a General AND a BSB then you'll be laughing. These guys are by far the best all-round unit in the High Elf Special choices.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:26 am 
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oh that is just sick my list is like exactly the same as brain mage almost.... lol

i dont use any archers lol I have a unit of 65 spearmen..... my god does the spearmen absorb a lot of fire and its expensive but my white lions are getting into combat untouched.. people are afriaind of high elves that break steadfast... I would be lol... yeah my white lions unit been doing super awesome every game in horde formation... I have won 3 out of 4 times i've used this list with no changes. The freaking game I lost was to skaven player who rolled 3 IF but never blew up in 3 turns.... stupid plaque i was going to remove it from the game with sigil.... atleast it wasnt my lions.... then again removing steadfast would of been better against his 200 slaves but were white lions are worthless but its like atleast my core were threatening enough to be nuked i feel like like my core are comming a lot way from when i started in 8th and they were just ignored.

I dont think im going to touch this list its really strong for an all commers list I am just going to try ot make another one that is different so my enemies dont know what im bringing every week... Wish I could make a competitive star dragon list.

LORDS AND HEROES 628

Level 4 Shadow Archmage 310
-Silver Wand
-Golden Crown of Atrazar

Noble 178
-battle standard bearer
-dragon armour
-shield
-Banner of the World Dragon

Level 1 Fire Mage 140
-Sigil of Asuryan

CORE 625

65 Spearmen 625
-full command
-Banner of Swiftness

SPECIAL 1145

17 Pheonix Gaurd 360
-full command
-The Skeinsliver
-Banner of Sorcery

30 White Lions of Chrace 495
-full command
-Ironcurse Icon
-Banner of Eternal Flame

5 Dragon Princes 150

1 White Lion Chariot 140

RARE 100

2 Great Eagle 100

I am not allowed to use Book of Hoeth only thing they dont let me use were I play. I think they are jerks for it :) I put all my heroes sometimes into the PG block and never fight with them at all lol. I just take ranged hits and I spread them thin so my own miscast dont kill them all. Point denial while my core can kill a deathstar if Iland a okkam's even if they are reduced by 50%.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:27 pm 
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Location: Poznań, Poland
Quote:
65 Spearmen 625


Drakova don't you use any ETC rules in your game club?

Quote:
Unit sizes are limited as follows:
Units cannot be more than 40 models nor 450 points (including all command, upgrades, magic items/banners). This restriction applies during the creation of the roster - unit size/cost may be increased during the game (for example - by joining characters to the unit). This restriction does not apply to characters.


http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... b4&start=0

I mean huge blocks of units are ofc nice, but they are so IMBA, imagine other armies with those huge blocks of units + stubborn , BSB...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:24 pm 
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Location: Rochester, NY
If he has 65 spearmen, apparently not.

huh Go figure. Not everyone uses the ETC modifications to the rules (note I don't say rules since, well, they aren't actually the rules).

Some armies are stronger than others. That's just how Warhammer works out. Figure out how to beat them. Don't change the rules to eliminate what you don't like. Any army can beat any army.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:30 pm 
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Are we going to have this discussion about why ETC fixes the game again?

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And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:34 pm 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
Are we going to have this discussion about why ETC fixes the game again?


If you keep tossing out leading comments like that, I suppose so.

ETC is how some players enjoy the game. The official ruleset is how others enjoy the game. I'm okay with that. I could be a lot more inflammatory, because I have my own views on the issue, but I'm not interested in dragging this discussion off-topic.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:29 pm 
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And his comment about ETC not being 'rules' is any better?

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And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:15 pm 
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Geez, sorry about offtopic, I was just curious why he deployed so many spearelves, Imagine 100x night goblins, i mean it might be weird in my opinion when you actually deploy such huge unit that it is impossible to get around it, etc.

And I am quite fresh to 8 ed., I just thought ETC is kindof popular and that ppl have a certain reason for not using it, and so conseqently, I wanted to know why he is not. That's all :P

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:16 pm 
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Location: Univeristy of Glasgow
In countries like ours (Poland and Malta) you will see primarily ETC run tournaments.

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For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:34 pm 
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Location: Rochester, NY
Diukon wrote:
I just thought ETC is kindof popular and that ppl have a certain reason for not using it, and so conseqently, I wanted to know why he is not.


I'd think that you'd more have to explain why you -are- using ETC over the actual rules, as opposed to why you aren't using ETC...

That'd be like a traffic cop asking you why you weren't going 10 over the speed limit instead of the cop asking why you -were- going 10 over the speed limit.

ETC is a modification to the base rules. Nothing says you have to use it.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:02 am 
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I played a few more games and I've stopped the horde of white lions. It's a nice unit formation but I decided there was better. The problem i started to have is if I ever got hit by a medium level unit in the flank my white lions would only get 1 attack and could rarely reform to face the enemy. I would say it was ok but i;ve decided against it. I got flanked by some Witch elves (after I murder a black gaurd unit, lowred their ini, so i got rerolls to hit) Only 2 black gaurd remained and I got stuck in. The whole time I was thinking maybe this horde isnt so good. I thought I could get some aid with my knights against the witch elves but it didnt happen (failed a short charge) so his black gaurd sacrifice really paid out for him.... my bad.

I started it more as a test and it did well for me for awhile but I'm thinking its just not manuavable enough. The people I play with don't use unit size comp. I Keep my spears block large currently down to 49 (7x7) and I find this to be effective. The 65 was having some troubles as if I put it on a flank and I needed to turn its front arch outwards its back end would collide with something and I would have to reform wide with the risk of losing steadfast...... I do think large spears is the way to go still but I've decided 65 was too much at 2500. Atleast one unit large enough to break some steadfast, and try to clip stuff with it. I run my elites with smaller frontage then most cause I try to combine them so the spears can remove steadfast.

Also my large unit of spears had either loremasters or world dragon in it depending on the enemies spells, but that is a lot of points to pay against some armies who dont have magic that does damage in that way. It was killer against skaven tho... had a skaven player miscast his grey seer with plague to score almost no wounds.

So yeah I did the white lion thing it was working really well against some armies but against faster moving armies I don't think it's worth it usually. I loved it against saures something I fight often.

I wish we were using ETC rules I am a fan of most of their rules.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:18 am 
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I never used large units as a deathstar they could never go toe to toe with a real deathstar. I was using magic items to buff lots of guys at once so large units worked for me. Loremaster cloak, Banner of the World Dragon, Okkam's mindrazor (for the spears). My support units were of course small I only really had 2 combat units. This is all dated strategy for me already tho, I've come up with new builds based on new ideas. I was relaying too much on magic buffs my solution to getting unflanked was landing a mindrazor and then winning combat. Then reforming for the kill next combat. I would use steadfast untill I got mind razor off. But if my wizard would die early to a miscast my game plan would go down the drain. I think it relays too much on magic, and this I have discovered is very bad for finding a reliable way to win. Only rule have ay my club is I am not allowed to use book of hoeth or powerscroll... so landing a mindrazor was risky even if I played the odds as perfectly, I almost always make people scroll on their first turn with can be hard to do with shadow if the enemy is high ini.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:15 am 
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Drakova wrote:
I played a few more games and I've stopped the horde of white lions. It's a nice unit formation but I decided there was better. The problem i started to have is if I ever got hit by a medium level unit in the flank my white lions would only get 1 attack and could rarely reform to face the enemy.
Why were they having trouble reforming? If engaged in flank and front, you should be doing enough damage to the front to win combat. If engaged only on the flank and losing combat, Stubborn means you still ignore the CR modifier when testing to reform, so it should be easy to do.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:56 am 
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Location: Vienna, Austria
I think it was the fault of the flankers.
If a bunch of witch elfes with cauldron buff charge into your flank, it is well possible to not win combat with white lions, even if the unit in the front is just some kind of spearman. Granted, white lions are stubborn and thus steadfast, but that will not prevent them from beeing hacked to bits by models with 4 rerollable poison attacks.

If the WL deathstar is not equipped with a standard of balance, witch elfes will cause them some major troubles, reagardless of flank charge or not.


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