Is something wrong with me?

Discuss your tactics for the 8th Ed army book here.

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Wicksi
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Is something wrong with me?

#1 Post by Wicksi »

As the title suggests I got a problem and I wonder if its something wrong or if its something others share with me.


Here in 8th edition I must admit I love some of the changes and some of them not so much but that is life.
One thing that I have noticed changed dramaticly though is my view on our mainstreamed special units. to sum it up.

Swordmasters: Still deadly but due to stepup I wouldnt say they are worth taking 15points per model thats going to be killed either by arrow fire or by the first horde/huge block it meets (unless you flank etc) anyways I LOVED this unit before but now for some reason I'm just not having any luck with them. I had 10of them against 30night goblins once and I killed 3goblins in total and lost combat and was overun. for some reason I dont have enough luck in their dice rolls to think they are worth it.

White lions: lets face it these guys are (atleast from my point of view) born loosers. the only thing they actually do better then swordmasters is 1Charging out of a forest 2 Survive small BS arrows. 3Loose combats. for 15points you get someone who hits once very hard but on the other hand almost got no save whatsoever, and they simply dont have enough attacks to whipe a unit clean like swordmasters does. for me these units are not bad at all but by far the worst choice of our 3infantry choices. stubborn...

Phoenix guards: actually the unit I have seen preform the best and I'm only using 15nof them. they are tremendessly awesome and often manage to do more kills then my swordmasters per round, people doesnt want to hit them because they know that PG's doesnt roll over and die. This unit is actually the only unit I think is worthwhile in mather of our elite infantry.

Dragon princes: Sure they are good but they dont have the same role as they used to and for the same point value you now have something very good at support (wich a chariot can do better in all mathers but survive hits) and warmachine hunting (wich eagles shadow warriors and ellyrion reavers does better if its not dwarfs) so I think these guys have also lost alot of my faith.


Now moving on. personally (call me crazy) I think High elves needs to play alot different from 7th edition in 8th. I think we have to rely on our core units alot more (after all in all the games I've played in 8th my 20man strong seaguard unit is the one that is always doing the best in the entire game in mather off kills and survival (not countring PG's for survival).

So I'm thinking of making a new wich I actually think can work very good even in a tournament enviroment (I havent entered to many tournaments tho to be completly honest but I still think this might be a good way to go).

Rely on your Core units more have spearmens sea guards and archers, I havent counted anything yet only been scheming on a vague picture of what I want in my head and that is.
2units of 14archers
2 units of 25 lothern sea guards
1unit of 30spearmens.
and for the rest of the points you basicly have 2-3units of shadow warriors for warmachines and chariots to support your seaguards/spears.
on top of this I would have a Archmage with Shadows and a lvl 2 with metal and a bsb.

Now most of you probably already told yourself I'm nuts ;) and I'm ok with that I admit this army might not look so good but I'm pretty sure it is. and I'm dying to try it out only reason I havent is because I lack the modells for it.

but basicly you do have a lot of firepower from 50sea guards and 28archers (I know most people say s3 is completly useless but personally I say that is just rubbish, I've been killing a Orc lord with 2+AS with 2rounds of shooting from a 15man strong archer unit. they've been able to knock off 3wounds from a giant with one round of shooting just to make some examples.) The metall mage is obviously going for stuff that will be hard to kill like Knights, Hydra, Choosens. any type of alot of armor unit white the Archmage debuffs them with lower thoughness lower strength etc.

and once you get in combat you might not win the first round of combat with your 25strong seaguard unit or 30strong man spear unit but you will most likely keep them in place. and the plan is to have 2chariots per cc block ready to come and help them the turn after they get charged (or combo charge).

As I said this idea is very tempting to me especially since I find our Special units a bit boring nowdays, what do you think about this army? good? bad? utterly ridiculus? any input is welcome

(very sorry if I put this in the wrong section).
dabber
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#2 Post by dabber »

I've seen another person on this forum making the same claims about the core being good. I completely disagree is all respects. Beyond that, my response is the same - write some detailed battle reports and SHOW it working. Details!!!
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#3 Post by Zed »

Wicksi wrote:Swordmasters: Still deadly but due to stepup I wouldnt say they are worth taking 15points per model thats going to be killed either by arrow fire or by the first horde/huge block it meets (unless you flank etc) anyways I LOVED this unit before but now for some reason I'm just not having any luck with them. I had 10of them against 30night goblins once and I killed 3goblins in total and lost combat and was overun. for some reason I dont have enough luck in their dice rolls to think they are worth it.
You're exaggerating, had extremely bad luck or you got outplayed really, really badly. Let's assume a reasonable situation: 30 Night Goblins in 6x5 formation vs 10 Swordmasters in 5x2 formation. The Swordmasters have 16 attacks, assuming there's a champion. They hit on 3s and reroll any 1s and 2s. In other words, on average, 10.67 of those attacks will hit without the need for a reroll. The reroll should add another average of 3.56 attacks. On average, you should be hitting with 14.23 out of 16 attacks. Each of those 14.25 hits will wound on a 2+, meaning that you're dealing with an average of 11.85 wounds. That's when the goblins start hitting back. Given the formations, they'd attack 14 times, half of which will hit, half of which will wound, and 1/3 of which you'll save, leaving a whopping average of 2.33 dead swordmasters.

So I'll repeat: you're exaggerating, had extremely bad luck or you got outplayed really, really badly. Whatever is the case, you can't make any conclusions about swordmasters on this basis.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#4 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

English wasn't your best subject, was it? :wink:

I think most of your problems come from the complex that you've given yourself in regards to your Elite units and bad 'luck' with dice rolls.

If I can spell out some things for you.
Swordmasters: are built for combat, not for survival.
White Lions: are made to hit hard, and to make it into combat so they can.
Phoenix Guard: are there to survive, until games end.
BUT, all of the Elite Infantry mentioned above are great fighters, some moreso than others (ie: Swords over Gaurd), but they still hit hard and deal more than their weight in kills (most of the time), I noticed that your complaining that our White Lions only get a single attack and almost get no save !!,.... :shock: they are Elves with strength 6, always strike first, with re-rollable hits, an armour save of 5+ and 3+ from shooting... :?
I think, nay know that they are GREAT, think about their comparison to other Elite Infantry Elves;
With Wood Elves, the best save you can hope for is a 6+ Ward to a 4+ Ward only in combat and every other turn with Wardancers (6+ armour save otherwise), or with Eternal Guard, a 5+ armour save.
With dark Elves it's almost unanimously a 5+ armour save across the board, from Spears and Corsairs to Black Guard and Executioners with the exception of Corsairs havng a 4+ save from shooting, thats the best they've got.

So in retrospect, we've got saves on the good end of the scale, and for fighting power, well if I can't convince you that we have the best, then I don't know what to do... :?

As for Dragon Princes, what did their role used to be??? :?
I confused by this,.. yes I used to run them in units of 10, but now run them in units of 5-7, but thats just to maximize attacks.

As to your 'Core is more Important' statement, yes it is, we need to legally take more and it allows more flexibility (IMO), if what you want to do is run a Core Heavy army, then do so, dont let anyone stop you, but think of this too; (just as an example) Spearmen have the same save as Swordmaters, for a unit of 25x Spears with FC, it costs 250pts; for the 'same' cost you can have 15x Swords with FC; give them a Augment boost and they'll be there until combat and then some, yes its 10 less models but for combat power its far superior, Strength 5 instead of 3, less overall attacks at 22 instead of 26, but they are S-5, and will have more attacks for longer.

Remember that all of this is just my opinion, you have your own as you've stated already.

So each to their own, but keep an open mind and I'm sure if you had better luck with the dice you wouldn't hate the best elite infantry in the game so much. Similarly, because of your impeccable luck with your core unit's dice, you like them a whole lot more.

Also, as I was writting this, there has been other replies, and I agree with what both Dabber and Zed commented on, especially the statistics for the Swords versus Goblins example.
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jwg20
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#5 Post by jwg20 »

I disagree with a lot of your assessments of the specials, so I will cover that first.

Swordsmasters, I am not sure of either, but that's because I have not used them yet in 8th. The reason for my lack of choosing them is I find you lose attacks. If you rank them up in 2 ranks, you only get 50% of the attacks from the 2nd rank, which to me is a waste of points. 15 points for 1 attack S5 in the 2nd rank isn't going to do too much, plus they're not stubborn (so they don't hold as well against a more numerous foe, despite their extra attacks). They also don't stand up at all against shooting.

White Lions I actually LOVE. I had a unit of 13 with my general in that unit in a game against chaos warriors. They took a charge from 8 ogres with great weapons and chaos armor. That unit dealt 11 wounds with no armor saves (-3 to AS with S 6) between the 14 attacks from them and 4 from my general, and the ogres only dealt 7 in return. Yes, I was severely reduced in number, but I had dealt enough wounds for the ogres to run, where I promptly ran them down and charged the flank of a unit of chaos warriors 2 turns later who were engaged to the front with my LSG, forcing another rout. The extra strength and stubborn really makes them rock hard, especially with re-rolling attacks that miss in close combat. I find White Lions, while they will likely not eliminate a horde (but they will deal a huge number of wounds while simultaneously holding them up for at least a few turns due to stubborn), they are great against heavy cav or other heavy hitters like ogres. Also, they get all their attacks from the 2nd rank and can actually survive shooting thanks to the lion cloaks, making them worth the points in my opinion.

Phoenix guard I don't use, but I will have to get some if people think they're that good.

Dragon Princes, yes, need to be used differently in the new rules. But then again, ALL cavalry needs to be used differently in the new rules! Gone are the days when a unit of elite cav can charge a unit of rank-and-file to the front and win combat forcing a rout. Cavalry in the new rules require precision and proper use: they are no longer the hammer they used to be that can be used hap-hazardly to smash any unit they encounter in one turn. Which makes sense anyway to me, as cavalry in reality could NEVER break a unit of spears in one turn regardless of how good they were. I usually take a unit of 5 DPs to take care of enemy cavalry before turning back and supporting my infantry units in the center. A charge by them in the rear of an already damaged unit that has been in combat with my spears or LSG is usually enough to make any unit run for the hills with their 11 S5 attacks (+5 for horses, which can kill infantry). And I disagree that they are less effective than chariots for support. Chariots against any shooty-army will never make it to combat, whereas DPs and SHs will. I'd also love to see a chariot that pumps out 11 attacks a turn (Average attacks for a Lion Chariot is 9.5 on the charge including impact hits vs 11 for a unit of 5 DPs with champion, and they only have 4 wounds vs 5 wounds, and an AS of 4+ vs. 2+) That doesn't mean I think chariots are less, it means they have a different role. The "right" choice between cav vs. chariots are, like all choices in 8th edition, dependent on how you plan to use them.

But you are correct: the new rules forces people to rely on core troop choices, and I LOVE my core! 9 points for a spearelf with WS 4 and ASF and re-rolling misses? They make minced meat of lightly armored enemy infantry. A unit of 32 spears killed 12 marauders from a horde of 40 in one combat phase I played against Chaos before they could even think of hitting back. The Marauders ran and I held to turn and charge a unit of Chaos warriors that were engaged against another unit of 32 LSG my next turn, forcing another rally my following turn.

One thing I do instead of 2 units of 14 archers take larger units. Light strength arrows are great in high concentration in the new rules. You are likely to face larger units of lightly armored troops in the new rules, and high numbers of arrows pumped into those units can really deal some damage before you get into combat. I never divide my shooting equally between a few units that could be a threat; instead I blast away at horde formations to essentially make the unit a weak supporting unit rather than a unit that can tie me up for a few turns thanks to their ranks. In one game, I shot 85 arrows at a "horde" and eliminated 21, making a 40-man unit only 19 strong (which essentially made them a useless unit). Another bonus is the ability to re-rank into a more solid block. Your archers are WS 4 ASF which will re-roll missed attacks almost always, so take advantage of their great abilities in combat compared to other shooting units! A charge with a block of 30 archers in 6 ranks of 5 (6x5) into the flank of a unit fighting your block of spears will take away their rank advantage and likely force that unit to run. They can also hold up a unit of heavy cav for at least a turn if not more in this formation, giving you time to bring help to turn the combat into a victory before they end up running. (and with musicians allowing units of archers to re-rank AND fire in the same turn makes re-ranking less of a wasted turn).

I also love units of 32 LSG or spears. 32 offers 2 strong formations for combat: 8x4, where you get an amazing 33 attacks if you have a champion (which ASF and re-roll misses again), and 6x5+2 where you have enough ranks to take out a horde of the enemy AND can lose 2 spears before you start losing ranks.

Also, in your army, I would recommend an RBT or two. They have much longer range and are more reliable (if you rely on magic to destroy threats, your enemy only needs to focus on countering your magic to ensure his heavy hitters get to your line). In my experience they can hurt anything that's a threat, and your opponent can't stop you from shooting while he can stop magic.

Basically, you are right that 8th edition changes the tactics required by High Elves, but a change does not mean less effective. Used properly, any unit in the army can more than pay for their points. You just need to try them out to see how they work and know that just because heavy hitters like DPs, SM, or WL do not cause the enemy infantry to run for cover in one turn, they are still the best elite units in the game if used properly thanks to ASF and re-rolls.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#6 Post by Musashi »

1. PGs tend to work because of their staying power, and as such, the odds usually favour them, all things being equal.

2. I'm going to take a wild guess, that it's possible that either your deployment or command and control of your troops has let you down; in theory, you could utilize any balanced unit combination in our list and still have a fair chance of winning. If you insist on meeting a horde of thirty gretchen head on with ten SMs, you could reform them 7/8-3/2, though usually you should have let them run up against your Spears and sent in the SMs as backup.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#7 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

If I can add one more thing, why the hell do people insist that Swordmasters are not worth the points when bought in more than one rank,..... seriously WTF, :shock: , can I remind everybody that they NEVER got to attack in 2 ranks, so why say its a waste of points.
Everyone used to field them in blocks of 10-30+, for survivability from shooting and magic so they can get into combat, now just because they can attack in an extra rank their suddenly useless in big blocks and a waste of points.
They can still be used in blocks for survival and they get to attack once from the second rank, which is a bonus...

Using this motion, Swords in 7th should never have been fielded in more than 1 rank either, because you don't get to attack with the rear ranks...... :roll:

Remember that it also plays as a points denial from small shooting units too.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#8 Post by jwg20 »

I never said they were useless, I merely said that's why I don't take them. I am going to try them out to see, but personally, if we are going for big blocks, I would rather have 10 S 6 attacks and stubborn than 15 S5 attacks. Especially because WL's can survive much more shooting.

That said, if I knew I was facing, say, a goblin horde, I would go for swordsmasters. But if opposing army is unknown, I like white lions because of their survivability against shooting, their stubbornness, and their extra strength which really helps against heavy cav. Like I said, just my opinion.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#9 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

jwg20 wrote:I never said they were useless, I merely said that's why I don't take them. I am going to try them out to see, but personally, if we are going for big blocks, I would rather have 10 S 6 attacks and stubborn than 15 S5 attacks. Especially because WL's can survive much more shooting.

That said, if I knew I was facing, say, a goblin horde, I would go for swordsmasters. But if opposing army is unknown, I like white lions because of their survivability against shooting, their stubbornness, and their extra strength which really helps against heavy cav. Like I said, just my opinion.
I agree with you completly here, and I dont mean you alone, it seems half (or more) the posters on here think that it's a waste for Swords,....
I say it would be better for White Lions in most cases for an all comers list, but if you know you facing a combaty army with little to no shooting, then Swords are the better option.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#10 Post by Paricidas »

With access to all lores and all buffs and so many power dices that you need a bucket to throw them all at once, I dare say that none of our elite infantry choices is bad or not worth the points.

Swordmasters are the only elites in a HE army that can chop through a horde like there is no tomorrow, and they surrvive it if they get a decent buff.

White lions can eat most big nasties for breakfast and do not even have to chew when they do it. Their stubbornness gives them additional utilitiy when it comes to to holding a line against an overwhelming force.

Phoenix guards are so duarable that they can make a picknik in the worst artillery killing zone and become nearly undestructable with the right buffs/items.


Of course, if you let your 14 swordmasters getting charged by a furnace unit or you run your white lions in a horde of whiches, while all of your buffs are being dispelled (like I did ;) ), you will not get much for your 15 points
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#11 Post by Lord Anathir »

I've never liked DP, and always liked core. But the truth is going all core isnt going to work. The core needs reliable shadow magic to win combat (which means book of hoeth). The issue is of course that you can only buff one unit at a time with mind razor, and although you can reduce st/t of opposing units fighting spears the spears will still have problems because they can't wound or reduce armor the same as if they were mind razored. You do need a mix of both. Every army is great at killing t3 low save models.

One of the reason I left the army is because the reliable builds are the ones that cut out the majority of support units and focus on 3-4 big blocks of infantry with book of hoeth and combat characters. It gets boring pretty fast.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#12 Post by Seredain »

Lord Anathir wrote:One of the reason I left the army is because the reliable builds are the ones that cut out the majority of support units and focus on 3-4 big blocks of infantry with book of hoeth and combat characters. It gets boring pretty fast.
Haha, Anathir, if an army made up of a few big static infantry blocks was boring you, why on earth did you move to Dwarfs of all things- they're all infantry!

Anyway I dispute, sir, what you say about reliable HE lists all having to include 3-4 big infantry blocks. In all seriousness, I just don't think it's true. There's a very great amount of tactical variety in the High Elf list if people are willing to find it. I bet you just want all the elves to come in a few big infantry units so your machines can have a field day... Tricky dwarf. ;)
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#13 Post by Lord Anathir »

I know it sounds lame. But the dwarfs need more finesse then the elves do now, because they win very few grind fights nowadays. They can't just run the infantry into another block and slug it out.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#14 Post by f00ssa »

Lacking Stubborn is no problem for my Swordmasters, who never take breaktests - they always win combat. :)

In my last game 14 of them (2*7) exterminated 15 orcs armed to the teeth and then continued into a 50-strong horde w. extra choppas.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#15 Post by geoguswrek »

Wicksi wrote:White lions: lets face it these guys are (atleast from my point of view) born loosers. the only thing they actually do better then swordmasters is 1Charging out of a forest 2 Survive small BS arrows. 3Loose combats. for 15points you get someone who hits once very hard but on the other hand almost got no save whatsoever, and they simply dont have enough attacks to whipe a unit clean like swordmasters does. for me these units are not bad at all but by far the worst choice of our 3infantry choices. stubborn...

If you don't take small units of white lions but instead take something in the 25+ range they become amazingly scary. Ok they become easier to redirect and avoid, but they gain some level of survivability and the ability to consistently win combats and remove enemy units from the table one by one.

I took a big unit (28, banner) to a tournament recently. They died in a single game (dreaded 13th), and in every game they killed something. Ok they'll rarely win you a game but they'll also rarely lose you it, and occasionally you'll play someone silly enough to charge something important into it (like a unit of chaos warriors) and give you the game. In my mind these are the best elite unit in our army (phoenix guard break units but they have to roll a about 60% chance to actually kill things, white lions kill them in combat).
Ps woodstrider is pretty useless now as infantry don't take difficult terrain for forests.


Dragon princes: Sure they are good but they dont have the same role as they used to and for the same point value you now have something very good at support (wich a chariot can do better in all mathers but survive hits) and warmachine hunting (wich eagles shadow warriors and ellyrion reavers does better if its not dwarfs) so I think these guys have also lost alot of my faith.

Again.. bigger units are the answer. A unit of 11 dragon princes will cost you a mere 350 points (with the compulsory banner, add in some toys like flaming attacks and a musician and the unit is still the soft side of 400) and will do much more on the table than spearmen. Also now that people are using halberds instead of greatweapons, the 2+ save has become a lot better and with rerolls to hit a unit like this can take ranked-units in the front (plus supporting attacks mean you are a lot better in subsequent rounds of combat). Units like this give you good ability to impress yourself on the battlefield whereas little units are just going to give away points.

Now moving on. personally (call me crazy) I think High elves needs to play alot different from 7th edition in 8th. I think we have to rely on our core units alot more (after all in all the games I've played in 8th my 20man strong seaguard unit is the one that is always doing the best in the entire game in mather off kills and survival (not countring PG's for survival).

see in my experience, intelligent players look to target our, relatively flimsy and expensive core units with their own scary units and take them off the table, getting points they can't easily get from other sources. With an increase in charge range and an importance put on ranks I find picking my core the hardest part of building a high elf list at the moment, as we have a slew of poor choices

So I'm thinking of making a new wich I actually think can work very good even in a tournament enviroment (I havent entered to many tournaments tho to be completly honest but I still think this might be a good way to go).

Rely on your Core units more have spearmens sea guards and archers, I havent counted anything yet only been scheming on a vague picture of what I want in my head and that is.
2units of 14archers
2 units of 25 lothern sea guards
1unit of 30spearmens.
and for the rest of the points you basicly have 2-3units of shadow warriors for warmachines and chariots to support your seaguards/spears.

The problem with chariots against princes and silver helms is that chariots die easily and give away vps. In a tight game one or two dead chariots can lose you the game. Similarly shadow warriors aren't very good at warmachine hunting because they die to shooting and light ombat units.
on top of this I would have a Archmage with Shadows and a lvl 2 with metal and a bsb.

this bit actually makes sense


Now most of you probably already told yourself I'm nuts ;) and I'm ok with that I admit this army might not look so good but I'm pretty sure it is. and I'm dying to try it out only reason I havent is because I lack the modells for it.

what do you do to an opponent who puts something like a unit of 8 treekin on the table? Alternatively what do you plan to do to a hero with the trickster's helm when all your attacks are s3? (i've been running a gorebull with this that I could walk across the table with impunity, and since it is unlikely to break from combat when it will lose the first round by 1 or 2 and win the subsequent rounds how do you kill it? Remember it is cheaper than the block it is fighting so sending chariots at it is taking them from elsewhere
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#16 Post by Eldria »

Lord Anathir wrote:I know it sounds lame. But the dwarfs need more finesse then the elves do now, because they win very few grind fights nowadays. They can't just run the infantry into another block and slug it out.
Ha ha ha? Dwarves are nearly as bad a point and click army as empire are...

Of course there are tactical builds in both armies and the list you choose to take is important in defining the finesse of play but in general you need far more finesse to make H.Elves work, after all dwarves have the best artilery in the game bar none.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#17 Post by Jedra »

Wicksi wrote:Dragon princes: Sure they are good but they dont have the same role as they used to and for the same point value you now have something very good at support (wich a chariot can do better in all mathers but survive hits) and warmachine hunting (wich eagles shadow warriors and ellyrion reavers does better if its not dwarfs) so I think these guys have also lost alot of my faith.
I'm sorry... but this sentence is just categorically incorrect.

First of all: the DPs are a lot faster. This means you don't need to commit them to one role or supporting one unit at the start of the battle. From a tactical perspective this is a HUGE advantage; you can react to what your enemy does rather than stubbornly clinging to the plan you made during deployment. The higher movement should also make it harder for enemies to maneuver in such a way as to prevent you getting charged.

Further, the comparisons of their combat abilities do not favour chariots at all. A naked unit of 5 DPs (with musician... which is who I always take them) is simply much better on the charge than equivalent points spent in chariots; their average number of hits ranges from slightly more to miles ahead, depending on whether the enemy has < WS 5. This is even more exaggerated when comparing to a white lion chariot. They also (when compared to 2 tiranocs) have a higher proportion of high strength hits.

After the charge, 5 DPs are so much better than 2 tiranoc's it isn't even funny. There just isn't a comparison you could make there which would lead to you claiming, with a straight face, that the chariots are out performing. White lions, at least, retain high strength hits so against some enemies they will do better, others they will do worse; a straight forward comparison is not easy on that front. It also depends on how many of the DPs died in the first round of combat.


Now don't get me wrong... I love chariots. They DO have their advantages over DPs. Strangely enough, one of their main advantages over DPs is their SURVIVABILITY in combat (so wrong again it seems). To do damage effectively in CC, DPs have to be in base contact with a lot of foes. Consequently, they get hit in the face a lot. Chariots, however, only need a corner. And whilst you have to maximise base contact with models, if there is already a supporting unit taking up a lot of space, you can just slide that chariot into the corner whilst getting ALL of its attacks hitting the enemy. Consequently, only 1 or 2 models will be able to attack it... and it will be more survivable. Also lost wounds are less of a big deal; a lost wound is just that with a chariot. With a DP, it is also a loss of 1/5 of the unit's attacks.

Strangely enough for your "comparison", chariots are best utilised WITH DPs; the combination of a flank charge from a DP unit and a lion chariot is just pure awesome. Thankfully, it is not a choice between the two, and you can happily take both if you can find the points for it.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#18 Post by FriendlyFanatic »

Zed wrote:
Wicksi wrote:Swordmasters: Still deadly but due to stepup I wouldnt say they are worth taking 15points per model thats going to be killed either by arrow fire or by the first horde/huge block it meets (unless you flank etc) anyways I LOVED this unit before but now for some reason I'm just not having any luck with them. I had 10of them against 30night goblins once and I killed 3goblins in total and lost combat and was overun. for some reason I dont have enough luck in their dice rolls to think they are worth it.
You're exaggerating, had extremely bad luck or you got outplayed really, really badly. Let's assume a reasonable situation: 30 Night Goblins in 6x5 formation vs 10 Swordmasters in 5x2 formation. The Swordmasters have 16 attacks, assuming there's a champion. They hit on 3s and reroll any 1s and 2s. In other words, on average, 10.67 of those attacks will hit without the need for a reroll. The reroll should add another average of 3.56 attacks. On average, you should be hitting with 14.23 out of 16 attacks. Each of those 14.25 hits will wound on a 2+, meaning that you're dealing with an average of 11.85 wounds. That's when the goblins start hitting back. Given the formations, they'd attack 14 times, half of which will hit, half of which will wound, and 1/3 of which you'll save, leaving a whopping average of 2.33 dead swordmasters.

So I'll repeat: you're exaggerating, had extremely bad luck or you got outplayed really, really badly. Whatever is the case, you can't make any conclusions about swordmasters on this basis.
Except that the goblins will be hitting on 5's and the swordmasters will often wound on3+ because of the blasted nets :)
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#19 Post by Zed »

Sorry for that - I didn't have any statistics for Night Goblins near me and just went off the top of my head. In that case, the swordmasters'll kill an average of 9.5 goblins, while the goblins will kill 1.56 on average.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#20 Post by FriendlyFanatic »

Zed wrote:Sorry for that - I didn't have any statistics for Night Goblins near me and just went off the top of my head. In that case, the swordmasters'll kill an average of 9.5 goblins, while the goblins will kill 1.56 on average.
Even better :o
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#21 Post by Zed »

Personally, I run my Swordmasters in 7x3 or 7x2 formation, and it's likely that Night Goblins are in a horde of at least 10x3. In that case, the Swordmasters'll kill 13.10 on average, while the Night Goblins will kill 3 on average. Honestly, I don't think the OP's representation of Swordmasters can be accurate - it's true that they're a pain to get into combat, but once they are... it hurts.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#22 Post by GooberNumber9 »

Lord Anathir wrote:The core needs reliable shadow magic to win combat (which means book of hoeth).
I've proven this not to be the case in many games. I've never actually played a game with Lore of Shadow, but my Spearmen horde is my all-time MVP unit. My record combat res with that unit is 30, which is the result of 6 in static res and 24 wounds.

I agree that core needs magic to be most effective, but it doesn't have to be Shadow and core can take on weaker units without magical assistance. A combo of Flaming Sword of Rhuin from Fire and Enchanted Blades of Aiban from Metal is very mean, and is exactly what I used to generate the 30 combat res. That was against Orcs and I was rolling 2s to hit with re-rolls and then 3s to wound.

In terms of the elites in the army, I find that Swordmasters are the hardest to use right, but if you can get them across the table intact, they will start to cut through units. Phoenix Guard are much easier to use, but will take a lot longer to win combat. They can definitely take out one unit during the game, but there might not be time for a second. White Lions are awesome against really tough troops or monsters. Take on a Hydra or any heavy cavalry with ten White Lions with Banner of Eternal Flame and you'll see what they are good for.

Nothing in the High Elf book is point and shoot. You have to really use each unit in the right way, and sometimes you need a bit of luck.

BTW, it's not nuts to love the core. I recently purchased another box of Spearmen to bring me to 96, with plans for four more boxes (secretly I'm aiming for 200 spearmen total, but I can't admit that to myself openly). They are the models most hated and feared by my enemies.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#23 Post by Lord Anathir »

Eldria wrote:
Lord Anathir wrote:I know it sounds lame. But the dwarfs need more finesse then the elves do now, because they win very few grind fights nowadays. They can't just run the infantry into another block and slug it out.
Ha ha ha? Dwarves are nearly as bad a point and click army as empire are...

Of course there are tactical builds in both armies and the list you choose to take is important in defining the finesse of play but in general you need far more finesse to make H.Elves work, after all dwarves have the best artilery in the game bar none.
Consider:

a) artillery don't eliminate units, just a few single models.
b) I can't catch weakened units for vp. Can't even charge because they just flee then they have the length of the table to rally or keep fleeing.
c) dwarfs can't chose infantry matchups because of poor movement, especially lateral movement.
d) although I am basically t4 with great weapons across the board (which is good) I have no access to hatred/killing blow/multiple attacks/rerolls/ward saves that make some infantry good. st6 attacks kill dwarfs as fast as goblins/elves/whatever, except I do not have the luxury of striking first (let alone rerolls).
e) I have no buff spells, which are incredibly strong this edition.
f) I don't have access to crown of command or any of the very good common magic items, which is a huge disadvantage for an army that is designed to be tough to break. That item is everywhere now, on characters in second rank where they can't die.
g) I have very little anti armor now that stones don't go through armor (granted a small thing), but a pain when a direct stone on a unit of empire knights (when fighting an all knight empire army) still gives him saves of 3+.

(take in mind we use ETC restrictions, so thats a cap of 5 warmachines)

Basically if I make a mistake in deployment I will lose an entire flank because my army doesnt have the movement to recover. Granted they may seem point and click when you fight them with such a vulnerable army like high elves but fight dwarfs with orcs/beastmen and hes got twice the number of blocks I have, triple the number of support units and everything is at his discretion where he wants to fight. If I shoot 9 of 10 fast cav from a unit he can run the last guy away in a forest and I either waste a machine on it to get the vp or I have to focus on other threats.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#24 Post by FriendlyFanatic »

Lord Anathir wrote:
Eldria wrote:
Lord Anathir wrote:I know it sounds lame. But the dwarfs need more finesse then the elves do now, because they win very few grind fights nowadays. They can't just run the infantry into another block and slug it out.
Ha ha ha? Dwarves are nearly as bad a point and click army as empire are...

Of course there are tactical builds in both armies and the list you choose to take is important in defining the finesse of play but in general you need far more finesse to make H.Elves work, after all dwarves have the best artilery in the game bar none.
Consider:

a) artillery don't eliminate units, just a few single models.
b) I can't catch weakened units for vp. Can't even charge because they just flee then they have the length of the table to rally or keep fleeing.
c) dwarfs can't chose infantry matchups because of poor movement, especially lateral movement.
d) although I am basically t4 with great weapons across the board (which is good) I have no access to hatred/killing blow/multiple attacks/rerolls/ward saves that make some infantry good. st6 attacks kill dwarfs as fast as goblins/elves/whatever, except I do not have the luxury of striking first (let alone rerolls).
e) I have no buff spells, which are incredibly strong this edition.
f) I don't have access to crown of command or any of the very good common magic items, which is a huge disadvantage for an army that is designed to be tough to break. That item is everywhere now, on characters in second rank where they can't die.
g) I have very little anti armor now that stones don't go through armor (granted a small thing), but a pain when a direct stone on a unit of empire knights (when fighting an all knight empire army) still gives him saves of 3+.

(take in mind we use ETC restrictions, so thats a cap of 5 warmachines)

Basically if I make a mistake in deployment I will lose an entire flank because my army doesnt have the movement to recover. Granted they may seem point and click when you fight them with such a vulnerable army like high elves but fight dwarfs with orcs/beastmen and hes got twice the number of blocks I have, triple the number of support units and everything is at his discretion where he wants to fight. If I shoot 9 of 10 fast cav from a unit he can run the last guy away in a forest and I either waste a machine on it to get the vp or I have to focus on other threats.

This.

The exact reason why I stopped playing dawi and started up with high elves. Despite the raving over warmachines I actually feel that dwarfes suffer a bit in 8th.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#25 Post by GooberNumber9 »

Lord Anathir wrote:(take in mind we use ETC restrictions, so thats a cap of 5 warmachines)
I don't know a lot about Dwarfs in 8th. I do know the ETC comp and that is so heavily comped that it's not even Warhammer anymore, IMHO. Your experience under ETC doesn't mean much to me in terms of uncomped games.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#26 Post by Tethlis »

GooberNumber9 wrote:I don't know a lot about Dwarfs in 8th. I do know the ETC comp and that is so heavily comped that it's not even Warhammer anymore, IMHO. Your experience under ETC doesn't mean much to me in terms of uncomped games.
Agreed.

Showing up on an international venue and telling the rest of the world about ETC's house rules of the month doesn't affect me much.

Off topic:
Similarly, the drawbacks you mention in many regards can also be overcome by list composition. Dwarves are more mobile than ever, especially when charging, and the improvements to Rangers and Miners is incredible. Many of my Dwarf opponents swarm the board, fold my backline, and applying tremendous pressure with such units. The Gyrocopter is also useful if you're THAT worried about catching fleeing enemies, even if you still have to roll for partials on the Steamgun.

On topic:
I think the points made about the fragility and point cost of High Elves is very apparent, and it's also why I think magic is important to how High Elves fundamentally function. Magic allows High Elves to compensate for many of their disadvantages, especially their fragility and lack of effective template weapons.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#27 Post by Lord Anathir »

To all the etc haters:

It is very much warhammer, as balanced as it comes. Most armies aren't affected much, just a few broken combos are taken out. Look at the most recent draft. The big rule changes they had in the earlier drafts are gone. I can and will play any comp/uncomp structure. I don't pick the rules the entire country uses (and most of the other big tournies in neighbouring countries for that matter). Every decent competitive game system in the world has some sort of update to balance it (look at starcraft/warcraft), and the fact that GW are too lazy to do it means that an independent group has to. Now fine you can play uncomped warhammer, which is basically the equivalent of starcraft/warcraft 3 version 1.0 where there were OBVIOUS balance issues or you can play the most recent version. Which do you think the top sc3 players play, the original or the most recent version? And if you give any of this "its not official" bull consider for a moment how little GW actually know of their own game system (just read WD reports, some of the silly faqs, anything they publish, etc) and remember that the ETC designers are some of the most experienced and best players in the world.

Thats all I have to say, now go back to playing your teclis vs teclis.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#28 Post by Janwin »

Anathir,

Usually, I respect and appreciate points you bring up in threads. They tend to be well thought out and bring interesting points to light.

That being said, this last one screams of childishness, grants the feeling of 'holier than thou', and also reminds me of 'I'm taking my ball and going home'.

Alright. We get it. You have a gamergasm going for the ETC format. You love having the 'cheese' removed so you don't have to deal with it, and so you don't have to consider how to best defeat the 'cheese'. Doesn't mean it's necessarily better or worse than any other system of play, including 'version 1.0'.

Personally? I play 'version 1.0'. It is the only 'official' version of the rules, and also happens to be what my friends and local players at the game store play. That matters far more to me than any 'fixes' that ETC might bring in. The people around me want to play, so we play. Without any regard for what 'some of the most experienced and best players in the world' might think regarding 'cheesy combinations'.

Do I always like playing a system that allows for cheese combinations? Not really. I often face storm banner/abom combinations on the part of my Skaven opponents. However, I believe that, without a doubt, playing them makes me a better player. If you cut out the cheese all the time, you are dulling the game down into a situation where you might as well turn to your opponent and say "ok, my High Elves are Empire, and your Vampire Counts are Empire too. Let's see who can do more with exactly the same stuff". This makes things less interesting, in my opinion. It also means you have to think less (maybe you like that?).

I find all the complaints about Teclis and BoH to be rather entertaining, actually. Instead of finding the weaknesses of your opponent's 'all eggs in one basket' setup, it's easier to whine about it and just ban it from play. I've been playing High Elves for 8 years now, and have never played Teclis (literally, not once). I've played BoH something like 4 times and it always seemed to just be a waste of 100 points. I find that running my dwarves as a gunline to be far more cheesy and broken than running my elves with BoH. ETC should remove handguns and crossbows, as well as template weapons that don't misfire.

Either way, to each their own. If you like playing ETC, play ETC. But don't give people shit for playing the game as it's written if they want to. It's a game. People play to have fun.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#29 Post by Tethlis »

Entirely agreed with everything that Janwin's post contains.

One thing that has to be understood about the functionality of a unit like White Lions and Swordmasters is that taking casualties is inevitable. I don't think it's a good practice to take 14-strong units of either and be surprised when you lose them after two rounds of combat. Casualties from return attacks are going to happen, and I think it's important to make sure you have the unit strength necessary to weather those attacks, and the magic support necessary to help mitigate them.

A lot of the complaints I see about armies stem from the fact that players are still using 7th edition lists/mindsets for the 8th edition ruleset. Loading up on 1000 points worth of characters and 14-strong units just doesn't cut it. The game is more about taking casualties now than it's been in the past; models die in droves, and they're meant to, because this ruleset encourages rolling piles of dice and focusing on greater means of inflicting casualties. Therefore it's important to make sure you're taking a lot of units, so no single spell or one round of poor combat is enough to cripple you.
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Re: Is something wrong with me?

#30 Post by Lord Anathir »

Yeah I think you're right I took it too far that last post. I had only spoken up because it was implied that my opinion means little because I play etc. If people here thought original warhammer was worth the time to play then we'd all play original here and I have full confidence I'd have the same high level of success I have now with the dwarfs.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
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