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What is the best all around unit for war machine hunting HE have?
Poll ended at Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:15 am
Great Eagles 76%  76%  [ 42 ]
Shadow Warriors 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Customized Heroes 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Small Bare Knight Units 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Ellyrian Reavers 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
Something else, I have not mentioned. 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 55
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:15 am 
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I really don't know which one I would recommend.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:19 am 
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Eagles. They're cheap, they're mobile, they don't compete with other choices for point allotment (unless you really, really like bolt throwers) and they serve a lot of roles besides warmachine hunting. If you lose one, it's no big deal, but they can be very difficult for an opponent to counter. Compared to Reavers and Shadow Warriors too, they're quite survivable with their high WS, T4 and multiple wounds. Flying is key for being able to get to well-protected warmachines too; infantry and cavalry units really struggle if an enemy has enough blocks to wall off their warmachines.

Their major downsides are few attacks and poor ground movement, in case a spell or item restricts them from flying.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:22 am 
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Heres an example: 4 Great Eagles in a 2000pt Army List. Costs you 200pts and is 10% of your List. Yet their tactical flexibility/possibilities FAR outweigh that 10% outlay.

My Eagles have eaten their way through entire Empire Warmachine backlines time and time again.
Because i force so many oncoming threat units [+2 Units of 5 Dragon Princes] onto them he cannot possibily shoot that many dead successfully, especially when you get your Angles correct, against Move or Fire Blackpowder weapons. And once you have eaten their Warmachines you are in their Rear, your Mainline Units are about to Contact his Holding Units and then you have setup a nice little slaughter, able to supplement whichever combats with Rear +2 charges from the Great Eagles.

The only problem is against Dwarves, Strength 4 vs Toughness 4 is not so pretty.

Its also a shame you cannot Stomp Warmachines. :cry:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:16 pm 
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+1 to what he said vs. Dwarves. 2 of my 3 eagles went warmachine hunting. Eagle number 1 attacked on turn 2 held out for four combats, fled and then charged again. He was eventually killed in combat against the bolt thrower.

Eagle number two last 3 turns against another warmachine and then died.
Looking back, I'd totally do it again.

If you are looking to kill dwarven war machines, Eagles are not the best unit to do this. However, they do marvelously at causing the warmachine to not be able to shoot at your t3 troops. It may take them forever to die or kill the thing, but that is exactly what you need. Time.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:39 am 
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I want to hear from the people who didnt pick eagle as well hehe. If u dont think its eagle leave comments so I can learn from you or atleast view another point of view. I was kind of thinking eagle myself when I made this but I don't really think they do what I want well enough for their points. Maybe im just spoiled. I play lizardmen sometimes and char skinks are just so good at back line killing.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:55 pm 
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Depends on how you break the question down really. Dragon princes are by far an away the best way to KILL the war machine, but would have more difficulty getting to the machine in the first place (wider frontage, slower movement) though are tougher, due to more wounds and 2+ saves.
Eagles are fairly easy to kill, and not very Killy in return. They can however fly over the top of interfering units, therefore making them "better" as they don't have to fight through a 30 man horde just to get to said artillery.
Can't comment on shadow warriors as never used scouts.
Problem with nobles is they are easy points for the enemy, whether eagle mounted or given the scout armour, they'll attract a lot of attention due to them being characters. And they compete with bsb and lvl2 point slots
Reavers are slightly less useful than knights. Granted they're quicker, but they die from being hit by a stiff breeze. And any opponent seeing them bum rush his artillery will send a lot more than a stiff breeze their way. Given their cost, he fast cav are not effective in this way. Ong yes, he no.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:30 pm 
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I was thinking about running a hero mounted on his own with the charmed shield and golden crown of atrazar for around 165 points. In a shadow army could i fly the hero over enemy units. Should be hard to shoot down that hero inles they got lots of small arms or and organ gun. Not really sure this is remotely intelligent but i might try it. eagles are not doing it well enough for me but im using them anyways. They are OK.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:26 am 
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lvl 4 with shadow and book of hoeth. shadows and reavers are no good, and eagles can't kill dwarf crew. So you either magic them or have mounted nobles charge out of units into them.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:35 pm 
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RBTs should be here, in my opinion. On average, you will have 3 hits (long range) which means 1 crewman hit. Against T4, this is half a kill per RBT. A couple of RBTs should thus, on average, down a war machine in a couple of turns. Add some archery support to it and it's suddenly real nasty compared to the costs.

I voted for Eagles. Being able to move above and beyond anything on the battlefield is crucial to get to war machines.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:14 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
On average, you will have 3 hits (long range) which means 1 crewman hit. Against T4, this is half a kill per RBT.

Wouldn't it just be three rolls to wound T7 now?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:22 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
RBTs should be here, in my opinion. On average, you will have 3 hits (long range) which means 1 crewman hit. Against T4, this is half a kill per RBT. A couple of RBTs should thus, on average, down a war machine in a couple of turns. Add some archery support to it and it's suddenly real nasty compared to the costs.

I voted for Eagles. Being able to move above and beyond anything on the battlefield is crucial to get to war machines.


I think he may be one rule edition behind. SpellArcher is indeed correct.

So that will be three hits, rolling to wound against Toughness 7. Not easy against a 4-crew Dwarf warmachine that has the possibility of being entrenched. If you add in longbows, the odds increase (every shot helps) but I wouldn't call it a great way to hunt warmachines.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:06 pm 
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i'v had lots of success with eagles. i take two and send one down each flank, unless against dwarfs and them they work together. in this way they can take out WM's atarting turn two and never stop unless the opponent wastes power dice on them, which i am fine with.

the noble on an eagle sounds cool and i will try it today at open gaming

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:26 pm 
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Tethlis wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
RBTs should be here, in my opinion. On average, you will have 3 hits (long range) which means 1 crewman hit. Against T4, this is half a kill per RBT. A couple of RBTs should thus, on average, down a war machine in a couple of turns. Add some archery support to it and it's suddenly real nasty compared to the costs.

I voted for Eagles. Being able to move above and beyond anything on the battlefield is crucial to get to war machines.


I think he may be one rule edition behind. SpellArcher is indeed correct.

So that will be three hits, rolling to wound against Toughness 7. Not easy against a 4-crew Dwarf warmachine that has the possibility of being entrenched. If you add in longbows, the odds increase (every shot helps) but I wouldn't call it a great way to hunt warmachines.


My apologies, you're right of course. Still though, the math's the same for RBT's - half a kill a turn per RBT. If you throw some magic into the mix it suddenly looks almost bright ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:33 am 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
lvl 4 with shadow and book of hoeth. shadows and reavers are no good, and eagles can't kill dwarf crew. So you either magic them or have mounted nobles charge out of units into them.


Shadow steed does indeed let me fly or charge into combat right? Yeah eagles are good against weaker crew but ive had to many eagles get wounded by small arms fire and then just get instantly butchered in hand to hand against crew. ESP dwarf crew. Not even delay enemy shooting for a turn. Had a detachment get my eagle down to 1 wound even tho it had cover save and then die instantly to crew (other eagle that was going in with it somehow failed its charge), which is a little unlucky but still. Just saying not having the best of times with eagles atm. Oh and the warp-lighting that was shot my eagle and my unit (not my fault insane luck, rolled double 10s inches) that was just sad. He wasnt even aiming for either one of those lol.

Book of Hoeth is pretty much a perma banned item. Nothing makes dwarves madder even if its fair. I got a whole nother post ranting about this tho.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:39 am 
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OMG no votes for shadow warriors they really do suck huh lol. I used them once and they baited a unit 3 times more expensive into a trap which I made out with like a 350 point advantage but that was more of the enemies error then anything else.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:12 am 
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Drakova wrote:
Lord Anathir wrote:
lvl 4 with shadow and book of hoeth. shadows and reavers are no good, and eagles can't kill dwarf crew. So you either magic them or have mounted nobles charge out of units into them.


Shadow steed does indeed let me fly or charge into combat right? Yeah eagles are good against weaker crew but ive had to many eagles get wounded by small arms fire and then just get instantly butchered in hand to hand against crew. ESP dwarf crew. Not even delay enemy shooting for a turn. Had a detachment get my eagle down to 1 wound even tho it had cover save and then die instantly to crew (other eagle that was going in with it somehow failed its charge), which is a little unlucky but still. Just saying not having the best of times with eagles atm. Oh and the warp-lighting that was shot my eagle and my unit (not my fault insane luck, rolled double 10s inches) that was just sad. He wasnt even aiming for either one of those lol.

Book of Hoeth is pretty much a perma banned item. Nothing makes dwarves madder even if its fair. I got a whole nother post ranting about this tho.


Perma banned as in banned in your circles?

I do not believe Shadow steed lets you charge any longer. The spell specifically states that the movement has to be as if part of the Remaining Moves phase during movement. Still though, catapulting an eagle ever so much closer is probably a good thing ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:11 am 
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I'd say a nice option for warmachines is a large block of archers with Flaming Sword of Rhuin. Wounding on 5's is pretty good odds with enough shots.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:08 am 
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I'll be trying shadow warriors, I think they have potential. Higher than average WS w/ re-rolls, scout and just cool models. They a a bit more situational though. But they're the models I have. So wish me luck!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:50 am 
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Truxio wrote:
I'll be trying shadow warriors, I think they have potential. Higher than average WS w/ re-rolls, scout and just cool models. They a a bit more situational though. But they're the models I have. So wish me luck!


I really do because I like them as well... but they are a bit over costed and weak in general...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:10 pm 
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How about Hero on Eagle with some nasty items, i.e Sailor's Bow (Your hero is a little bolt thrower) or Melee items +3 A etc.

BTW if u have 3 Attacks do you shoot 3 times also? ( I have never had more than one actually ;P and didn't find a rule which says u don't).

edit: yeah, now i remember :)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:42 am 
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Diukon wrote:
How about Hero on Eagle with some nasty items, i.e Sailor's Bow (Your hero is a little bolt thrower) or Melee items +3 A etc.

BTW if u have 3 Attacks do you shoot 3 times also? ( I have never had more than one actually ;P and didn't find a rule which says u don't).


Seafarer's Bow is 60 pts. so can't be given to a Noble who has a 50 pt. limit. And no, unfortunately, the Attack characteristic is in close combat only, missile weapons that can fire multiple times will have the rule "Multiple Shots" in their profile. You can go with the Reaver bow, which can fire 3 times, at S5, although you'll still need 6's to wound...most (Empire/Dwares) warmachines are T7. So best bet against killing warmachines is in close combat which uses the crew's T.


Curu Olannon wrote:
Tethlis wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
RBTs should be here, in my opinion. On average, you will have 3 hits (long range) which means 1 crewman hit. Against T4, this is half a kill per RBT. A couple of RBTs should thus, on average, down a war machine in a couple of turns. Add some archery support to it and it's suddenly real nasty compared to the costs.

I voted for Eagles. Being able to move above and beyond anything on the battlefield is crucial to get to war machines.


I think he may be one rule edition behind. SpellArcher is indeed correct.

So that will be three hits, rolling to wound against Toughness 7. Not easy against a 4-crew Dwarf warmachine that has the possibility of being entrenched. If you add in longbows, the odds increase (every shot helps) but I wouldn't call it a great way to hunt warmachines.


My apologies, you're right of course. Still though, the math's the same for RBT's - half a kill a turn per RBT. If you throw some magic into the mix it suddenly looks almost bright ;)


The main benefit of engaging the warmachine in close combat is that you prevent it from shooting a turn or two, even in cases when the crew eventually kill off the eagles you have prevented it firing on your more important troops. Whereas trading long range shots with RBT, even if you kill the same rate as the eagles is that the enemy warmachine is free to shoot back on its turn.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:41 am 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
lvl 4 with shadow and book of hoeth. shadows and reavers are no good, and eagles can't kill dwarf crew. So you either magic them or have mounted nobles charge out of units into them.


this.

But if i have to go with the poll's options, i'd go for eagles.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:49 am 
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Drakova wrote:
Lord Anathir wrote:
lvl 4 with shadow and book of hoeth. shadows and reavers are no good, and eagles can't kill dwarf crew. So you either magic them or have mounted nobles charge out of units into them.


Shadow steed does indeed let me fly or charge into combat right? Yeah eagles are good against weaker crew but ive had to many eagles get wounded by small arms fire and then just get instantly butchered in hand to hand against crew. ESP dwarf crew. Not even delay enemy shooting for a turn. Had a detachment get my eagle down to 1 wound even tho it had cover save and then die instantly to crew (other eagle that was going in with it somehow failed its charge), which is a little unlucky but still. Just saying not having the best of times with eagles atm. Oh and the warp-lighting that was shot my eagle and my unit (not my fault insane luck, rolled double 10s inches) that was just sad. He wasnt even aiming for either one of those lol.

Book of Hoeth is pretty much a perma banned item. Nothing makes dwarves madder even if its fair. I got a whole nother post ranting about this tho.


Pit of shades or the toughness debuff + archery. Good players block charge paths to warmachines or have a flanking unit that charges in second round. Eagles/reavers/scouts don't kill crew fast enough. DP frontage too big and harder to get to machines.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:59 pm 
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yeah eagles are falling short a lot for me lol... this dwarf player is hitting every point right on the head with eagles, i dont dislike eagles just they really arent much of a war machine distraction or anything for 50 points i feel like im over paying. When u consider how efficient other rare choices are in in other armies but its not that bad.

Fat blocks can block paths for charging the war machines a lot. The idea that eagles are garanteed to get into range on turn 2 is just false against well deployed enemies.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:33 pm 
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Drakova wrote:
yeah eagles are falling short a lot for me lol... this dwarf player is hitting every point right on the head with eagles, i dont dislike eagles just they really arent much of a war machine distraction or anything for 50 points i feel like im over paying. When u consider how efficient other rare choices are in in other armies but its not that bad.

Fat blocks can block paths for charging the war machines a lot. The idea that eagles are garanteed to get into range on turn 2 is just false against well deployed enemies.


Flyers can charge over intervening units, so unless he's placed his block directly in front of his machines, less than 2" away, this won't be a problem. If they draw out to charge the eagle they will be stranded from the rest of their infantry. If the other blocks somehow find a way to follow up, then there will be a gap behind which the cavalry can enter to either rear charge or take care of war machines.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:33 pm 
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I used to use Tiranoc Chariots as they have an Armor Save and hit harder than eagles, slightly more expensive however.

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