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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:41 pm 
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I have played over 30 games games with my High Elves in 8th Edition...
And i have now reached the point where i would like to try out the units that are overlooked...

Specifically Silver Helms...

Primarily I would like to do this to test out my generalship skills of making something 'less effective' work in a competetive environment... [but also because I like the idea of having a block of cavalry running around the field lancing things!] :mrgreen:

The problem is... i want to be as competetive as i can be... So my 2000pt list up untill now has been variations of:

Lords: Level 4 Archmage Shadow/Life [Silver Wand + Various Items]
Heroes: Typical Noble BSB GW AoC GP
Core: Spearmen5x5/Spearmen5x5 or Spearmen5x5/Archers6x2/Archers6x2
Special: 5x4 Phoenix Guard [Banner of Sorcery], 7x3 White Lions [Banner of Eternal Flame, Amulet of Light], 5 Dragon Princes
Rare: 2-4 Eagles

The questions become:
1. what do i drop in order to try out Silver Helms
2. or do i need to rewrite the list from the ground up if i am to make Silver Helms work
3. And most importantly --- How DO YOU make Silver Helms work?

Any and all advice is appreciated! But preferably from those with experience of Silver Helms in 8th Edition


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:18 am 
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viewtopic.php?f=67&t=33584 - here's a good example of how to make them work.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:06 am 
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Second the call to check out Seredain's cavalry tactics, there is some genius going on in that thread.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:50 am 
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excellent thread on cavalry tactics and build above.
i use SH's a lot and can say that you really need to build your list around a cavalry theme for it to work.
shoe horning one in wont really work.

you'll need a combat prince/noble in the unit, maybe a BotWD bsb in there too depending on pts level.
infantry to break steadfast (spear bus) and shooting to reduce incoming handgun fire etc.
i usually run magic defense lvl2 with annulian and rgoh combat prince in my lists. had a couple of wins so far.
they make a good wingman unit to my dragon prince too

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an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:39 am 
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I'm thinking of adding a Noble to my 5-strong Silver Helm unit. The main problem I can see is him getting sniped.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to equip him?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:07 am 
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for a 5 man squad i wouldnt bother. at 5 strong, use the helms to hunt warmachines. above 5 strong (more like 8-10) then a prince with DA, ench shield, magic weapon and vambraces is a good start.
for a noble (bsb) i like; armour of destiny, shield, lance/spear. this gives 2+/4++ and decent strength on the charge

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an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:42 am 
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Csjarrat wrote:
for a 5 man squad i wouldnt bother

I too doubt it's efficiency.

However, I'm wondering if could be made playable. Your Noble set-up looks really good for defence. The alternative is to take a Great Weapon I guess so you can grind if necessary. Then you only have a 3+ Save, so Helm of Fortune is tempting.

With the 5-strong unit I can see war machines targeting the character (and the unit!) being a problem. Maybe Charmed Shield as a cheap insurance against the odd cannonball.

The other thing is I always like to see if I can multi-task Nobles, so maybe Radiant Gem or some such though that may be pushing things.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:07 pm 
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i'd save the rgoh for a prince tbh, a mundane 2+ isnt enough protection considering how many pts you'd sink into him. guardian phoenix and a bound spell item with 2+ mundane could work however, without leaving a noble too defensless and not painting too big a target on his head.
the problem with this is that a 5 man unit isnt really able to grind against anything decent size as you'll just bounce off static CR. putting a noble in there means its overkill against wm crew and skirmishers, and will draw lots of fire onto your small unit due the VP value its carrying around.
i'd rather use the noble on foot with a block of troops like PG to up their hitting power than small cavalry units.

now a noble leading a glorious cavlary charge of combined helms, dragon princes, chariots and eagles is another matter entirely. huzzah for the 10 strong cavalry units :_)

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an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:55 pm 
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I'd like to put in a good word for the unit of 10 SH without a noble.

Sure, a SH bus makes a great escort for a mounted noble or price. However, a unit of 10 SH without noble accompaniment is still a fairly effective unit. They have the same hitting power as a unit of 5 DPs, only cost 1.5 times as much, and can take twice as much damage (except from flaming attacks of course). I have used them in conjunction with units of 5 DP (2 units of 5 DP, one unit of 10 SH) to offer multiple cavalry threats.

The main reason I tried this unit was because I wanted more cav and I didn't have enough DPs, but I found that it was actually quite nice to have a survivable cav unit that didn't cost 300+ points. The big difference between this unit and my DPs was that it was much more effective as a mobile tarpit/anti-tarpit vs weak S3 troops. Against goblins or clanrats, I could ram this unit in on the charge, and both units would be stuck there indefinitely. The weak S3 troops couldn't hit through the armor well enough to kill the unit, and the SHs would kill enough of the cheapies with their ASF S3 attacks to compensate for the lack of ranks and win combat most of the time. With a DP unit, after a death or two, the odds turn against you.

This is also a great unit to use against gunlines. Fast, armored, and most importantly, able to absorb casualties and still make it to its destination.

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Close buts its a bit more Operation Chargeblerghvomitvomiteateat ooolook I grew an extra head


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:10 pm 
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Csjarrat wrote:
i'd save the rgoh for a prince tbh, a mundane 2+ isnt enough protection considering how many pts you'd sink into him

The interesting thing is, where is the line between vulnerable and too vulnerable? Last edition the foot Gem BSB was viable due to lack of Stepping Up, now he can't see combat without lots of help. I think the increased mobility of cavalry letting you pick your fights better means you should be able to get away with a 2+ if you have clear ideas about what the Noble and unit are for. You can go for Life or High to give the unit protection. Sure it can be dispelled but you will also be putting on spell pressure with your lord-level caster, so this won't happen every turn. It's all about picking the right target for the unit I guess.

Csjarrat wrote:
guardian phoenix and a bound spell item with 2+ mundane could work however, without leaving a noble too defensless and not painting too big a target on his head.

This sounds good.

Csjarrat wrote:
problem with this is that a 5 man unit isnt really able to grind against anything decent size as you'll just bounce off static CR. putting a noble in there means its overkill against wm crew and skirmishers, and will draw lots of fire onto your small unit due the VP value its carrying around.

I'd consider putting it into the flank of an average block but not the front. This is what the extra mobility is for! The unit has at least a good armour save, a standard and 3 S6 attacks (if carrying GW) on top of all the S3. I'd also look for extra tricks from the magic item allowance. What I can see it doing is combo-charging. Also targeting weakened blocks mid-late game.

The points investment is the problem of course. Looking at around 250pts I guess and the old argument about just taking lots of DP's instead has force here. Yes it's a shooting target, the rest of the army needs to be built to give the enemy too many shot choices I think. Organ Guns and such will murder it but obviously it doesn't care about things like Stone Throwers.

Csjarrat wrote:
i'd rather use the noble on foot with a block of troops like PG to up their hitting power than small cavalry units.

See I think elite units don't need characters. One problem with our army list as it stands is that naked elite units (including DP's) are more efficient fighters on the whole than basic troops plus characters. The Silver Helm bus may be an exception to this:

Csjarrat wrote:
now a noble leading a glorious cavlary charge of combined helms, dragon princes, chariots and eagles is another matter entirely. huzzah for the 10 strong cavalry units :_)

:)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:31 pm 
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krysith wrote:
I'd like to put in a good word for the unit of 10 SH without a noble.

Sure, a SH bus makes a great escort for a mounted noble or price. However, a unit of 10 SH without noble accompaniment is still a fairly effective unit. They have the same hitting power as a unit of 5 DPs, only cost 1.5 times as much, and can take twice as much damage (except from flaming attacks of course). I have used them in conjunction with units of 5 DP (2 units of 5 DP, one unit of 10 SH) to offer multiple cavalry threats.

The main reason I tried this unit was because I wanted more cav and I didn't have enough DPs, but I found that it was actually quite nice to have a survivable cav unit that didn't cost 300+ points. The big difference between this unit and my DPs was that it was much more effective as a mobile tarpit/anti-tarpit vs weak S3 troops. Against goblins or clanrats, I could ram this unit in on the charge, and both units would be stuck there indefinitely. The weak S3 troops couldn't hit through the armor well enough to kill the unit, and the SHs would kill enough of the cheapies with their ASF S3 attacks to compensate for the lack of ranks and win combat most of the time. With a DP unit, after a death or two, the odds turn against you.

This is also a great unit to use against gunlines. Fast, armored, and most importantly, able to absorb casualties and still make it to its destination.

All good points well made. I've never fielded helms without at least a noble (because they can take a bit of the grind, it helps to have a character to actually make them good at it), but it's good to see you're doing so and finding some success.

People should pay particular attention to the point about gunlines. Lots of elf generals complain that their elite infantry armies are getting blasted apart easily and that, therefore, war machines are overpowered. Well, a fast and durable unit can be part of the solution if you're willing to try it.

Csjarrat wrote:
now a noble leading a glorious cavlary charge of combined helms, dragon princes, chariots and eagles is another matter entirely. huzzah for the 10 strong cavalry units :_)

Huzzah!

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:34 pm 
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See I think elite units don't need characters. One problem with our army list as it stands is that naked elite units (including DP's) are more efficient fighters on the whole than basic troops plus characters. The Silver Helm bus may be an exception to this

me too, apart from PG. swordies and lions are killy enough that they dont need any extra attacks. PG tend to be a grinding unit that wins out because it doesnt die. put a combat char in there and they start to win combats rather than draw them in my experience.

that said, my characters either ride dragons, eagles or horses. i'm considering building a chariot mount though the last char i built was a pain in the ass!

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an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


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