Is HE good to start with?

[TonyGarcia]

Hi,

Have been following this forum for a while and got good advices from it.

I started playing WHF about 3 months ago. I built a 2.5K HE army, mostly using info from this forum, and played already about 10 games. The problem is that I have lost all the games miserably.

Of course I don't expect to win so soon, 10 games are not really much, but I would expect to do a bit better already, at lest put up a better fight and pass the 4th turn.

My question is - Is HE a good army to start WHF? Should I go to something more easy to manage until I get more knowledge about the game itself?

Any advice on that?

Cheers,

Tony

[Chracian]

Don't give up hope yet!

First of all, HE can be difficult to play effectively. Don't listen to anybody that says HE are easy to play because of our ASF rule. While most of our troops are very good, they are also universally T3, meaning they can die easily. It is important to pick which fights to get into carefully and avoid getting shot if at all possible. There are many useful tactics articles on this very forum, so I'll not spend more time on this now.

Secondly, if you've got a 2.5k army, you've invested (presumably) alot of time and money into collecting it. Stick with it.

Thirdly, what opponents are you playing? HE will struggle against gun-heavy dwarfs and empire and can be overwhelmed by the sheer numbers a skaven or goblin army can field.

Finally, what is your army list like? Post this up for us and we can critique it; there may be places here where you have less optimal choices.

[Pash]

Like Chracian said, HE are a difficult army to master but once you do, they'll put up a decent fight to most armies out there. You just have to learn how to use your units best. They're too fragile to just throw at the enemy and it might just be a case of you being outmanoeuvred by more experienced players.

Also, your army list has a big effect on how your game goes. Without the proper support, HE will get picked off and outnumbered and killed. So, post what you have in your collection, what sort of points you usually play and a typical army list you use. Also, the local meta-game makes a big difference so let us know what opponents you usually face.

HE are an excellent army and in the right hands can be extremely effective. Don't get put off by the learning curve, we all had to face it at some point (and most of us still do)!

[dabber]

If you want to get better, changing armies is not a great plan. You will probably just make similar mistakes with another army book. Examine why you lost the last few games. Write battle reports so people can give you feedback on your choices. Change what you are doing.

[TonyGarcia]

Thanks guys for the support. Don't get me wrong, I don't really think I should be winning already but at least surviving to the 6th turn.

My tactics are basically - I don't have any. Try to shoot their main blocks, advance my infantry to try to engage their main infantry, flank them with my special units and use magic in a offensive way. All this works very well inside my head, but for some reason, when it goes for real, well...

I have basically faced dwarves, DE, skavens and WoC. So far, skavens has been the worse. Their Doomwheel, Plage Catapult and Warp-Lightning cannon as just a nightmare.

My army list has changed from game to game, but my last one, witch I played against DE is:

2400 points

Prince on steed, barding, shield, ogre blade, armour of fortune, dawstone.

Archmage lvl4, jewel of dusk, foloriath's robe, life

Mage lvl2, dispel scroll, fire

Nobel BSB, dragon armour, shield, reaver bow, luckstone

3 x 12 (6x2) Archers

24 (6x4) Spearmen FC, war banner

2 x (7x2) Swordmaster FC

2 x Ellyrian Reavers

2 x RBT

[Jaith]

High Elves are the glass elite. It is considered a "tactician's army" by most WHF players on this specific forum

[dabber]

Try to shoot their main blocks

Mistake. HE shooting is not very good at causing massive damage. Pick off the support elements with shooting.

advance my infantry to try to engage their main infantry

If both sides are advancing, it is likely someone is making a mistake. Perhaps you should wait longer and attempt to improve the overall battlefield situation first. You have a ton of shooting in the list below, and that means you want to stay out of combat and use the shooting.
Given your other statements, you also mean "engage with spearelves". Engaging quickly with spearelves is rarely a great idea, since most things beat them. Especially with small spearelves, and size 24 is definitely small.

flank them with my special units

Your little Swordmaster units need to be in the flank, but the more common practice is to take bigger units and run things over frontally. Oh wait, your Swordmasters are size 14, not size 7? They'll take most other infantry frontally. You'll get hurt, but you'll kill a ton. Just make sure they fight infantry, not a monster, and protect them from shooting first.

Their Doomwheel, Plage Catapult and Warp-Lightning cannon as just a nightmare.

Shoot the Doomwheel. It is hard to hurt, but mass shooting should do some wounds. Also shoot the catapult or cannon if you get a clear shot. Skaven is a real problem for High Elves.

My army list has changed from game to game, but my last one, witch I played against DE is

Not a terrible list, but it has above min core, has too many points in characters, shoots too much, and is short on elite infantry. In many matchups, replacing the Reavers and RBTs would help. Dropping the Prince for another unit of elite infantry is a very obvious improvement. Adding Banner of Sorcery is almost always a good idea.

[Rip.dk]

with that army i will take shadow magic with your lvl4 mage, as you are shotting alot
gett melkoth´s mystifying miasma , the withering and okkam´s mindrazor

now you only need too learn when too charge as your army dont have the rus forvard and kill but shot shot and shot again but still charging (yes with your archers as well) when it is the rigth time and then give them okkam´s mindrazor too make the kill

+ gett some eagles

hav fun m8

Rip.DK

[Chracian]

I would do without the prince. That's a lot of points when you've already got plenty of characters. If you can, replace with another unit of elite infantry.

How's the reaver bow doing for you? The set-up you have leaves him vulnerable in close combat. Better with armour of caledor, guardian phoenix and a great wepon to keep him alive.

High magic is a good support lore for your level two, shadow probably better for your level four. Banner of sorcery is useful in a two mage list.

Eagles are always better than reavers, especially against skaven and dwarves with war machines. Against WoC they are very useful if units have the mark of khorne (this makes them frenzied and more likely to chase after your eagle).

[Bolt Thrower]

A lot of good advice here. Don't give up. High Elves are a great army for many reasons and while they are challenging, the rewards when played well are worth it.

I agree that it appears your list is character heavy. Dropping the Prince is a good start. After games, I find it helpful to go over my list and say "what have you done for me lately?" In other words, are you worth the points I'm spending on you? Who did this character/unit kill? Who did they pressure/redirect/shoot etc? High Elves work better with units working in tandem rather than depending on characters to pull thru on their own.

In your list I wonder if 3 archer units is too much. You may start to see diminishing returns. I'd cut one of those and work the difference into your spearmen to beef them up.

I think your lvl 2 mage would do better with a support lore like High Magic. Being able to take the shield of saphery to protect those sword masters would be a big plus against shooting. Getting drain magic for free is also a bonus. On the lvl 4 which lores have you experimented with? You mentioned using magic offensively, but I don't really see Life being offensive. Death, Shadow and Metal would be potentially more appropriate. Definitely work the banner of sorcery in.

Get some birds. Or just proxy something as an eagle and test it out first.

[Ptolemy]

When I first began high elves a little over a year ago (it was also my first WHFB army) I did the following:

1)Straight charged a star dragon into the front of a unit of hammers
2)Assumed Eagles were pointless
3)Deployed my Lion Chariots one behind the other (subsequently watching a cannonball bounce through both)
4)Assumed my general had to have a magic sword at all costs to be kewl
5)Thought that a Dragon Prince charge would be WH equivalent to running a chicken over with a Sherman

My List was a standard Star Dragon cookie-cutter 2250 tourney list.

Suffice to say...I lost a lot of games rather stupidly. I say lose as often as possible in the beginning. Not purposefully, but play with the mindset of focusing on the performance of two or three units. See what they do, what they CAN'T do (the most important lesson) and how to better use them.

Should you use high elves to start to learn the game? Yes. High Elves are extremely unforgiving to mistakes. You can easily allow a crucial element of the army to be isolated or lose a chunk of points all at once and be unable to recover. This is a good thing. You will learn more about the warhammer gaming system and how to work your army within it (by necessity) than armies like Daemons or Skaven will ever have to do.

High Elves are the frigates of Warhammer. Fast, agile and able to decimate enemies on the offensive. Our fraility balances the army out.

Take the high road here and you will be a better player at the end.

Keep up the work.

[Chracian]

Also look at magic items you give to characters. Your prince, for example, currently costs 277 points, for 2+ rerollable armour save, 5+ ward save and S6 attacks. The same can be achieved for 245 points with this set up:
Prince, barded steed, helm of fortune, great weapon, dragon armour, guardian phoenix.

In other words, play around with magic items to get the right balance. Jewel of the dusk costs 15 points and uses your archmages arcane allowance, whilst banner of sorcery costs 50 points and can be carried by most special troops.

[TonyGarcia]

Thanks guys for all the help. I have now a few questions but I'll start new topics to discuss those in a bit more detail. I hope my problems can also be helpful to other HE players.

[prelude_to_war]

IMO High Elves are harder to learn for new players. You have little to no margin for error since our units are few in number and easily killed. But you learn how to maximize units, deploy in your favor, when to fight and when not to, etc.

Just the other day I played another new player starting High Elves with my own High Elves. The game was odd since our lists were almost the same, but he was able to see on both of our turns - not just his - what a HE player was doing. It might be helpful to try if there's another HE player in your area.

[Lord Anathir]

Actually I think they're quite newb friendly. Pack as much elite infantry and a dragon or teclis into your lists and try to steamroll and you should always have a good chance. Most players/armies won't have the tools to deal with 3+ blocks of PG/Lions. However the top players will deal with it, and so over time you'll eventually drop off some of that infantry in exchange for the support units that help your infantry get into favourable fights and clear up chaff. And thats the journey of the army in a nutshell I think.

[Azreal]

I started Warhammer about ten years ago playing games against my brother and some friends- After my gameing group moved away we sort of gave up on Warhammer. Yet I did try to keep up with the rules/army books as I loved the fluff. Anyway I decided to get back into it since the 8th and played about as many games as you winning I think 6 drawing 2, I am currently getting mullered by my friends Skaven and another friends warriors of chaos list. But thats all good- its how you learn.... My first army was Dwarf gunline- which was pretty easy to learn but got a bit dull... Them Skaven can really really be a nightmare.....

Seriously dont get too downheartened - the only issue I can see from your list is the prince, also (and I hope no one here takes too much offence) planning your initial lists arround advice given in forums like these might not be the best place to start, since advise here tends to be on the optimal side of things. I would advise to do what you like and go from there- a gameplan of your own, for example, is more likely to succeed since you came up with it. A good option might be to consider bulking out your units a bit- take a large block of SM instead of your 2 units of fourteen, or take a big old unit of oh so reliable PG and hold the center.

Anyway you'll make Ulthuan proud, keep those ideas comming, try to anticipate what the other guys thinking, and pull a few suprises here and there and youll be bringing in those victories in no time...