Enemy of the Month November: Skaven

[wamphyri101]

Hi all,

The last 2 games I have had against Skaven (Though one of them was all my fault) has been a bit of a tight one.

8th Ed leaves us with a lot of issues against rats. Templates cause a hell of a problem, thunder stomp on abominations, doom rocket can take out 18 swordmasters in 1 shot. Even the magic is pretty cheap (Plague/scorch decimates) for little real side effect if irresistible. Plague censors can really really hurt also.

So, WITHOUT using Teclis (Or any special characters) or Book of Hoeth

How do you deal with them?

[Ruerl Khan]

Skaven can be a damn dangerous opponent, and offcourse my perspective is somewhat different since I play another elven race with slightly cheaper models

But some of the things I try to do is to do a refused flank, I found that such things as a hero on a chicken as well as chickens in general (Or in my case, pegasi) are good at hunting characters and pesky war machines, and the enemy will often use a completly disproportionate force in removing those, and they will be removed. But usually they will last long enough for you to get in tight and personal.

Once there I personally prefer trying to go with a refused flank using the terrain if at all possible, and I do always allocate my rank and file attacks against his characters whereever possible, a dead character does not provide leadership which helps you significantly, sure they may still be steadfast but its far easier to break them then.

Also, on magic I would say that this is one enemy where a lord and a level 2 combined with death and shadow really shine, I even tried the crazy combo once in a 2500 points battle where I had 2 level 4 mages with me, one with death, one with shadow. It was... overkill.

Lore of death in particulair is useful here as it lowers a units leadership by 3, which may give you that opening in their line to punch through, combined with the ability to snipe characters (and war machine teams) it gives you some solid openings and are able to remove enemy characters with some good chances.

Speaking from the tactical point of view I am still a fan of the MSU principle against skaven, I know this is 8th edition and people generally swear by large blocks to get the steadfast rule, but we play elves, we will rarely be steadfast unless fighting against specialized elite units, so we must deal with combats in other fashions, such as dealing enough casualities to win combat and keep winning combat till the enemy is'nt steadfast any longer. Apart from a few blocks of spearmen I would probably not even have many large regiments, and I would (gasp, shock) try to have a broken line with sacrificial lambs, that is sacrificial lambs that your enemy *wants* to take. imagine a long line that is your deployment zone? Place the majority of your regiments on one side and a single or two regiments in the middle/other side. The enemy can kill those regiments offcourse, he just needs to divert more than one regiment to do it, since most of your regiments easely can take down his one on one. As such the battle becomes about forcing your units to fight his, without his units getting support.

[Jedra]

So i've never had a whole lot of trouble with skaven I have to say. I think one of our best tools for dealing with them is an archmage (even without book of hoeth). The great thing is, whilst we have things like the banner of sorcery and jewel of the dusk, skaven have bugger all by way of increased dispel ability (bar the BRB stuff of course) given us a huge advantage in the magic phase.

Two lores particularly good against skaven are death, as has already been mentioned, and light.

With death, the only spells that isn't any good is the purple sun. Anything else has a ton of uses. In particular, sniper spells rock for taking out the skaven characters, who do relatively poorly in terms of their stats to resist these spells, but who's leadership (combined with the strength in numbers) help keep the skaven on the field even whilst they lose battles. Snipe the general and/or BSB, and the skaven army crumbles. Also, casting doom & darkness on the generals unit is very handy, basically negating his leadership bonus for the army. Again, skaven break, you have fun.

Light is also great. One of skaven's biggest threats (especially if you like blocks of infantry) are those f***ing warp lighting cannons and weapon teams. Light is ideally suited for taking them out and shielding you from their effects. Pha's protection, shem's burning gaze (which is also flaming, incase he brings a hellpit abomination) and even banishment help enormously against these. The combat buff spells are also great to mitigate the effects of prolonged combat against the skaven blocks.

I think one of the reasons I don't have problems with skaven is that I take both of these lores. Granted, I only have the one spell for death, but the enemy usually chucks most or all of his dispel dice at it. As such, the remainder of my PD can be used to take out all those pesky dangerous ranged things, and the rest of my army plows through him like a knife through hot butter.

[Tethlis]

One important concept I find with Skaven is to make good use of your Core choices. Skaven are really an opponent where our Core choices excel; even archers can hold up Slaves and Clanrats with ease, yielding little VP and really letting us focus on gathering VP with our stronger unit choices. Similarly, with our elites being hit by so many potentially devastating unit-destroying effects (as has been mentioned, Plague, Scorch, Dreaded 13th, Doomrocket, templates) can mean that an entire crucial unit is destroyed/depleted quickly. This makes it important to have all of your units involved in the fight and actively contributing, rather than depending heavily on one or two units but being careless with the rest of your list.

In terms of general strategy, I also agree with Ruerl Khan that a refused flank is a good way to go. Skaven will have a lot of bodies, and if you can quickly isolate and kill the closer portion of their battle line, it makes it much easier to deal with everything else. This is obviously tricky since march blocking is a thing of the past, but this is where those Core choices become useful for slowing/tying up Skaven regiments, helping to handle their numbers while your best units go after the real Victory Points.

[Kethnae]

I like most of what you're saying Tethlis, but I've got a problem with this:

One important concept I find with Skaven is to make good use of your Core choices. Skaven are really an opponent where our Core choices excel; even archers can hold up Slaves and Clanrats with ease, yielding little VP and really letting us focus on gathering VP with our stronger unit choices.

Slaves are dirt cheap. Slaves are brought with the assumption that they will die, it's just a question of what they do beforehand. You don't hold up slaves, Slaves hold up YOU.

[Greenman]

[quote="Ruerl Khan"]Skaven can be a damn dangerous opponent, and offcourse my perspective is somewhat different since I play another elven race with slightly cheaper models

Are you sure you're in the right house,boss?
Spot on about deploying denied flank though and which is not a bad "default" stategy for elite armies.Shooting in numbers will help here as will having plenty of drops(skeinsliver?)and a skirmish capability supported by nudie DP's.

[Ruerl Khan]

Are you sure you're in the right house,boss?

I've said this a few times before, and i'll say it again:
This is a warhammer site first and foremost, for all hobbyists, it has a high elven focus, but you do not need to play high elves to participate here. We've had days where 5 out of 6 moderators played dark elves, and even today there are more moderators who play dark elves (and high elves) than those who do not.
Please keep that in mind, its not a forum for high elven players with a high elven focus, it is a forum for warhammer players, that have a high elven theme. And this is something entirely different.

Spot on about deploying denied flank though and which is not a bad "default" stategy for elite armies.Shooting in numbers will help here as will having plenty of drops(skeinsliver?)and a skirmish capability supported by nudie DP's.

Well, it is hard to give specific tatics without a specific situation, so I need to speak in general terms I am not sure i'd bother with dragon princes though, they are very expensive for what they can do against skaven and I honestly think the same thing might be pulled off with cheaper troops, such as Ellyrian reavers (which are faster too while at it).

Now, this also ties in with what Tethlis stated above, and I agree with him that your core choices are an excellent thing to have here, I would only bring elite choices as small MSU groups who he is forced to focus on occasionally, but which wont cost you too much if they die.

I disagree with the notion that march blocking is a thing of the past though, today its about forcing the enemy to either stop his move entirely, or overrun in the wrong direction. And one skaven block stopping, due to the nature of his large units, will leave a huge gap in his line. Plan accordingly and you can and should have large holes to exploit, one of the most important things to note here is this: During the movement phase his units can be a hindrance to himself if you exploit the size of his units by sacrificing a chicken.

Regards

Ruerl Khan -who yes, plays dark elves. But also knows the high elven army quite well, thank you.

[Tethlis]

Slaves are dirt cheap. Slaves are brought with the assumption that they will die, it's just a question of what they do beforehand. You don't hold up slaves, Slaves hold up YOU.

Entirely true, but slaves and cheap Clanrat units are also good for going after vulnerable units while Skaven fight your best stuff with their best stuff. If you can use your Core to slow down and occupy a lot of their trash tarpits, then it actually allows you to send your nice White Lion/Phoenix Guard/Dragon Prince unit out to get some Victory Points, rather than being tarpitted and eventually destroyed.

Basically, as you mention, Skaven have such a numerical advantage on us that it's important to use every unit you have to try and handle their numbers, and make sure you're sending good troops after a worthwhile Skaven threat that will actually give you enough VP to win the game.

I see games versus Skaven often take two dynamics:
-My good troops fight his good troops, my Core fights his Core.
-My good troops fight his Core troops, his good troops fight my Core.

In the first situation, Elven elite can usually spank Skaven under the right circumstances, giving you the advantage in Victory Points. Your Core is able to slow down, occupy, tie up, distract and generally help buy a few turns for your elites to do their job. It's not perfect, because obviously you're outnumbered by a big margin, but it's not impossible since Skaven blocks very easily tend to get in the way of each other.

[Worloch]

Magic is the easy answer, of course. Flames of Phoenix, Fulminating Flame Cage, Net of Amyntok, Piercing Bolts of Burning, The Dwellers Below, etc, etc. Lots of good ways to disrupt or plain old destroy those big blocks.


I say hit them where it hurts - their Leadership. Skavenslaves are dirt cheap, so you can basically assume they will always be steadfast. However, they also have a base LD of 2, and if they break, they are destroyed with no chance to rally. Even the basic Clanrat only has a LD of 5. They rely on propping their LD up to stick around.

Steadfast - Can't get rid of this other than to kill a lot of them until they are no longer Steadfast. However, even with Steadfast, you Fail more often than you Succeed on LD 5 ...

Characters - These guys provide the higher base LD for the units, so take them out when you can. Snipe them with spells, direct attacks at them (don't challenge), hunt them with Chickens, etc. Take out the BSB asap if you can. Even if you can't kill them, you can try to draw his line apart so that the units end up out of range of the General and BSB.

Strength in Numbers - The other half of the propping up the LD equation. Best thing to do here is Disrupt the big blocks. Disruption cancels out the Rank bonus of the unit, thus denying it to the Units LD. A unit that manages to get on the flank of the Skaven's line can be a game changer.

[Jedra]

Strength in Numbers - The other half of the propping up the LD equation. Best thing to do here is Disrupt the big blocks. Disruption cancels out the Rank bonus of the unit, thus denying it to the Units LD. A unit that manages to get on the flank of the Skaven's line can be a game changer.

I feel like such an idiot for not realising that... but i never realised that very nice.

[Tethlis]

That's the thing; Skaven Leadership isn't poor at all, until you either flank them or there aren't many left. Even Clanrats have the same Leadership as our spearmen, as long as they have three ranks (pretty easy for them to achieve) or are Disrupted. Usually when you're sabotaging their Leadership like this, it means you're already winning since they either have very few models left or are being hit in the flank.

The big thing that I really see sabotage Skaven, however, are late-game Panic tests. If you can take out a general or BSB in the first half of the game and start forcing Panic, then I often see it causing a cascading effect. Having lots of units, all tightly packed and taking Leadership tests, is bad for any army.

[Pash]

Another couple of tricks to keep in mind: that 15pt Enginseer upgrade in the Skaven slaves unit means he can't shoot into your combat so it might actually be worthwhile to keep him engaged and not attack him if it means it'll save you being blasted by the Warp lightning cannon or a Catapult. Unless of course they're disrupted as mentioned. That way you want their LD as low as possible (if out of General range).

Also, never underestimate the power of your Eagles! They can provide handy Combat res and are quite tough to kill for anything below Special/Rare or character. Use them for extra combat res, extra attacks, speedbumps to get SS buses off the board - ANYTHING! These 50pts are about the best you can spend in your army and I would highly recommend stocking up on at least 2/3 in every standard army

[Ptolemy]

If we assume you are playing a HE army, you must destroy that furnace before it contacts your line. The Plague furnace unit will simply decimate an Elven unit (even PG) on the charge. Impact hits, followed by a wrecker, followed by a plague priest followed by 3 attack horde plague monks will doom your unit.

The furnace is most easily destroyed by a Spirit Leech spell. Please keep in mind, since the furnace/bell are mounts, they may use the best stat available for statistic tests (which spirit leech is NOT). This means that people's assumption about insta-popping the furnace with pit or sun are incorrect.

Also...Doom and Darkness is a fantasitic spell as others have mentioned. The Skaven army relies on their garbage blocks of slaves holding up your army. They expect to lose combat. Even steadfast skaven slave units with general will still have a problem staying around if they have -3 penalty on that leadership. You bust through one of those slave units in a single turn and you can expect it to ruin the skaven plan.

I'm convinced that players who rely on steadfast to keep their army around are asking for trouble.

Also, beware the Seer/Power Scroll combo. The 13th spell is the single nastiest spell in all warhammer and I believe that a seer with power scroll is far more nasty and abusive than the Book of Hoeth can ever be. It pretty much guarantees you lose an entire unit 1st turn.

Our only counter to this is to deploy as far away from the seer as possible for the 1st turn. I love my RGoH noble on eagle for this. He will throw a death spell into that seer's face turn 1 (hopefully bjuna or caress if I rolled them, spirit leech if I didn't). One good roll and he's a crispy rat.

[Seredain]

If we assume you are playing a HE army, you must destroy that furnace before it contacts your line. The Plague furnace unit will simply decimate an Elven unit (even PG) on the charge. Impact hits, followed by a wrecker, followed by a plague priest followed by 3 attack horde plague monks will doom your unit.

The furnace is most easily destroyed by a Spirit Leech spell. Please keep in mind, since the furnace/bell are mounts, they may use the best stat available for statistic tests (which spirit leech is NOT). This means that people's assumption about insta-popping the furnace with pit or sun are incorrect.

If you don't have death magic, how else would you destroy the furnace? I'm guessing that missiles only hit it (rather than the plague monks) on a 5+?

[wynforth]

If we assume you are playing a HE army, you must destroy that furnace before it contacts your line. The Plague furnace unit will simply decimate an Elven unit (even PG) on the charge. Impact hits, followed by a wrecker, followed by a plague priest followed by 3 attack horde plague monks will doom your unit.

The furnace is most easily destroyed by a Spirit Leech spell. Please keep in mind, since the furnace/bell are mounts, they may use the best stat available for statistic tests (which spirit leech is NOT). This means that people's assumption about insta-popping the furnace with pit or sun are incorrect.

If you don't have death magic, how else would you destroy the furnace? I'm guessing that missiles only hit it (rather than the plague monks) on a 5+?

for both the bell and the furnace you can choose to shoot it or the unit pushing it, but the shot is still randomized between the furnace(1-5) and the rider(6) if you choose to shoot it.

Skaven in general aren't that threatening to HE. The strength in Skaven really is in their armybook. They've got a lot of different options, and if they know what they are facing can really make a punishing list. need lots of bodies go horde, need lots of strength bring ratogres/abomb/censes, need range bring jezzails/cannons/weapon teams, need lots of attacks bring plague monks/night runners..there are just a lot of options in the book. Facing Skaven in a tournament, or pickup game they really shouldn't be too much of a problem unless the player is just really really good.

also i'll just say if you get the watch tower scenario you've practically won already. Chances are if they start in control they won't have any core units <20 so it'll start empty, or maybe have scouts in it. Racing to the tower HE are one of the few(only?) armies that meet skaven in infantry speed. The only really threatening unit to hold/attack the tower with is censer bearers which most armies don't bring, and possibly rat ogres, nothing else will really put out any killing power against any of our good tower holding units, (mainly SM/PG). Their best hope is bring the tower down with crack's call/bell, and at that point they are just hoping for luck at a chance to win.

[Pash]

also i'll just say if you get the watch tower scenario you've practically won already. Chances are if they start in control they won't have any core units <20 so it'll start empty, or maybe have scouts in it. Racing to the tower HE are one of the few(only?) armies that meet skaven in infantry speed. The only really threatening unit to hold/attack the tower with is censer bearers which most armies don't bring, and possibly rat ogres, nothing else will really put out any killing power against any of our good tower holding units, (mainly SM/PG). Their best hope is bring the tower down with crack's call/bell, and at that point they are just hoping for luck at a chance to win.

While I agree with a lot of what you point out, I'd like to point out a few things that we may disagree with.

Firstly, Censer Bearers are a standard unit in many Skaven armies. I suppose it depends on your local meta-game but its a solid unit and I can't see why any decent Skaven player shouldn't take them.

Secondly, while our units can hold the tower quite successfully (especially WL & SM), there are still things in their army that can hit hard enough to push us out. Mainly - the Abomination.

Lastly, just to be pernickety, the other armies that match Skaven in movement are Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Deamons, Beastmen, Bretonnians and Ogres...

[wynforth]

Firstly, Censer Bearers are a standard unit in many Skaven armies. I suppose it depends on your local meta-game but its a solid unit and I can't see why any decent Skaven player shouldn't take them.

might be a local thing then i hardly see them, and looking around skaven army list forums the first 20 2000+ point lists i looked at none had them.

Secondly, while our units can hold the tower quite successfully (especially WL & SM), there are still things in their army that can hit hard enough to push us out. Mainly - the Abomination.

the abomb is actually weaker against the tower then say rat ogres, or censers. no impact hits, which if it's SM/WL in the tower might mean it doesn't even survive to do anything. And, the feed attack will do at best 1 wound. so only 2/3 chance it might be dangerous, and one of those is just 3d6 WS3 attacks so best case you could expect 9hits. Avalanche of flesh is really it's only hope and even that is reduced in effectiveness since only 1 model has to take the ini test.

Lastly, just to be pernickety, the other armies that match Skaven in movement are Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Deamons, Beastmen, Bretonnians and Ogres...

being persnickity back I said infantry speed. ogres are monstrous infantry not infantry gnoblars are m4. Brettonian and DoC(predominantly 9@4 2@5 3@6 1@10) infantry speed is 4. I guess lizardman has a fairly even split.

[Tethlis]

For my part, I see a lot fewer Censer bearers than I used to. Attacks being made in Initiative order, plus step up, means that Censer Bearers lose a lot of their shock and survivability in combats now. I still think they have very strong potential, but they're not the standard choice they used to be.

For dealing with the Furnace, I've always just luck with shooting it down to a couple wounds before engaging it in melee to finish it off. Taking wounds on a 6, with no protection other than randomizing against a character who also has no armor, really means that it doesn't like missile fire.

"Prime" the Furnance with shooting, line up your combined charge of choice, and watch the unit's staying power and survivability melt as you finish off the Furnace itself. The Wrecker attack is resolved towards the end of combat, and Impact Hits (obviously) only apply if you charge, so all you have to deal with is forced Toughness tests before you're able to attack with all that ASF goodness.

The Storm Banner can give the Furnace some great survivability, but if the Banner's active then the Skaven shooting is weakened as well, so hopefully you're gaining enough advantages in other areas to compensate for the fact that the Furnace is harder to shoot down.

Lastly, the Furnace is very weak to flank charges. Yes, the unit pushing is Unbreakable, but the Furnace's ability to move within its own unit is limited.

[Suirahm Nesbokaij]

my way of dealing with the furnace is to commit 20+ lothern seaguard to shoot them and eventually resive a charge from them, most times Ive been able to reduse them enought that after the fight wish I loose and run from he cant pursue, because of less that 10 pushers. After that some Dragon princes, lions or swormasters charge the flank, to take those last wounds off it. while my last 5 - 10 LSG rally on a rerollable ld 9 test (if my bsb is in range as it should be.) Dwellers, FoP, and the Kain spell is good for backing up this tactic, or just use shadow magic and rip the furnace to shreads, and use it for plywood. But be aware of scrolls as skaven players tend to save them for last rounds.

Ive also been beating slaves with 10man archer units in combat after knocking off some ranks with missile fire, but the mvp in winning against skaven is Reavers usually 2 small units, killing off those weapon teams in turn 1 - 2 is crusial if they are still alive use them to disrupt his lines, a succesfull rear or flank charge with archers in the front will beat clan rats. Remember to spread your shooting out since every rank lost is - 1 ld for him.

[Eldria]

I tend to find kill the artillery and characters and little will bother you in whats left. A skaven army with no bsb or general starts to fail panic tests, particularly if you are rank stripping units.

Of course those first two task are not always that easy to pull off.

shadow warriars have been awesome for me a couple of times, when i slipped them between skaven blocks and into the squishies behind. Now ratling guns roll to hit very few of their weapon teams are amazing against small units in their own lines. (remember fire throwers cause panic tests which can be extremely funny)