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 Post subject: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:19 am 
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I've not played against Beastmen before, and it looks as if I've got a couple of 2,500 point games against them tomorrow. I did some reading around here through the tactics forums, which turned up the 7th Ed Enemy of the Month thread, some recommendations to take the Fire or Death lore against them and some 7th Edition battle reports. Having read through those, I'm hoping that those who've played against them under the new edition of the rules can give me some pointers on things to watch out for and to avoid doing.

I gather that Minotaurs need to be killed in a single combat if possible, or redirected away to avoid them stacking up bonuses from winning combat rounds; that the general/heroes in a Beastmen army tend to be pretty important for shoring up the average Beastmen leadership; that Beastmen have some hard as nails rare choices that can cause havoc if they connect, and that I can expect to see screens of small, disposable skirmishers as well as units appearing behind me from my own deployment edge. I've not read the Beastmen army book and I'm not likely to get a chance to other than perhaps quickly immediately before the game, so assuming I'm completely ignorant is probably for the best.

The intent is to play two games at 2,500 points - one without special characters, and then one with special characters if we have time. The list I've been running for the last few weeks is fairly generic, uses Ptolemy's lord combination and looks like this:

    Prince with RGOH, GW, Armour of Protection, Dragonbane Gem, Potion of Foolhardiness (Lore of Death)
    Archmage with Book of Hoeth (Lore of Shadow)
    BSB with AoC, Guardian Phoenix, GW

    24 Spearmen, Full Command, Banner of Arcane Protection
    24 Spearmen, Full Command
    10 Archers, Musician, Light Armour upgrade

    6 Dragon Princes, Musician, Standard Bearer, Ellyrion Banner
    18 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Ruby Ring of Flame
    19 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame

    3 Great Eagles

Depending on the mood I'm in, I sometimes trade the Gem and Potion on the Prince across for a Silver Wand, or the banner of Eternal Flame in the White Lions for an Amulet of Light.

I haven't put together a list with special characters in yet, but I suspect I'll end up shaving points to replace the archmage and prince with Teclis and Caradryan or Teclis and a Level 2 mage.

I'd be grateful for any advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:15 pm 
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beastmen rare choice are plukey, he'll most likely be going for syngizes with his charaters and units, focus on his generals unit first and then go from there.

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Long ago dragon princes fought on the backs of great dragons, but now the dragons sleep and they ride to battle on horses instead. Proud, arrogant, but extremely skilled, able to impale two people with one lance thrust, they refuse to dip their banners in honour of the Phoenix King before battle
-Dragon Princes of Caledor


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:42 pm 
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Looks like a nice solid list to me. Death should be able to help snipe characters hopefully, and Shadow should help you deal with his nasties.

I can see your Prince is basically relying on his 4+ Ward save, which makes him a bit vulnerable to my mind, but I can see how you can't do much about that without dropping the book on the Archmage. One option would be to drop the book, pick up perhaps Silver Wand and Talisman of Preservation, and then switch your Prince to have Vambraces of Defense over Armor of Protection, and put him on a Barded Elven Steed and join him to the Dragon Princes.


I'm not sure about the Ruby Ring of Ruin (I'm pretty sure that's what you meant by Ruby Ring of Flame). I'm not sure it will be worthwhile, as while it is easy to get off, it is easy to dispel as well, and as a bound item you can't boost it. It will also need PD that maybe you want to use on the higher CV Shadow spells. Maybe switch it out for the Amulet of Light, just in case you need to deal with an Ethereal unit or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:48 pm 
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oh and I'd drop the archers completly and bump the spearmen upto 30 each, also mr sucks now you can save points by droping that.

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Long ago dragon princes fought on the backs of great dragons, but now the dragons sleep and they ride to battle on horses instead. Proud, arrogant, but extremely skilled, able to impale two people with one lance thrust, they refuse to dip their banners in honour of the Phoenix King before battle
-Dragon Princes of Caledor


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:23 pm 
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I wouldn't say it sucks. It works differently from 7th, that's for sure but sucks? Nah.

True it won't work against some of the big bad's of Magic now (Final Transmutation, Dwellers Below, PSoX or PoS) but it still works against all the other direct damage and magic missiles.


Could still drop it to shave points of course, if you're not expecting or don't care if your unit is getting peppered by magic damage. I'm assuming it is on there to put the Archmage in that unit and act as a bunker until CC, since an Archmage w/ the book is defenseless without a bunker.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:50 pm 
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Worloch wrote:
Looks like a nice solid list to me. Death should be able to help snipe characters hopefully, and Shadow should help you deal with his nasties.

That's what I'm hoping - there are some critters listed in the back of the BRB under Beastmen that have a high Ld, but the Prince has been sniping things like Stegadons so thoroughly that I'm hoping I can pick off things like his BSB and maybe his General or at least any annoying wizards with the spell.

Worloch wrote:
I can see your Prince is basically relying on his 4+ Ward save, which makes him a bit vulnerable to my mind, but I can see how you can't do much about that without dropping the book on the Archmage. One option would be to drop the book, pick up perhaps Silver Wand and Talisman of Preservation, and then switch your Prince to have Vambraces of Defense over Armor of Protection, and put him on a Barded Elven Steed and join him to the Dragon Princes.

Well, I went through a stage of putting the Prince in Dragon Armour, but unless I was getting his armour save down to 3+ or better, enemy champions or heroes tended to challenge and would negate the armour save anyway through high strength. I read a piece by (I think) Prolemy where he mentioned running a prince with the Talisman of Preservation for the ward save, because the armour save was largely redundant. The Prince tends to lurk in units that are still at 15+ models, so he doesn't get shot at that often by anything other than warmachines. I put him in the Armour of Protection because the ward save is the same, but it does give him that basic light armour save, for the same price. It makes me a little uncomfortable putting him into melee with units that generate a lot of low to medium strength attacks, so I try and avoid that. I've debated putting him in with the Dragon Princes for the extra movement, but he's an easier target to pick out then because of the smaller bodycount. My Dragon Princes basically exist to walk through (or hide in) terrain, hunting targets of opportunity like warmachines, or flanking in support of the infantry units - hence the banner and musician. It's also been handy to be able to drop them into a terrain feature during deployment and thereby push back infiltrators/scouts.

Worloch wrote:
I'm not sure about the Ruby Ring of Ruin (I'm pretty sure that's what you meant by Ruby Ring of Flame). I'm not sure it will be worthwhile, as while it is easy to get off, it is easy to dispel as well, and as a bound item you can't boost it. It will also need PD that maybe you want to use on the higher CV Shadow spells. Maybe switch it out for the Amulet of Light, just in case you need to deal with an Ethereal unit or something.

Well... yes, and no. I've been caught twice by Lizardmen opponents who like to use Chameleon skinks in numbers. After the first time, I decided to add the ring in; it gives me a second source of flaming attacks, and it's great for dealing with scouts, fast cavalry, fliers and the like that I don't want to throw a unit at. It's cheap to cast and cheap to dispel, but if my opponents are dispelling it, then it's eroding their ability to dispel the leeches/pits, and if they don't want to bother evading it, then it's a ranged attack that doesn't miss. It's not really a game-breaker by any stretch of the imagination, but it has been useful for grabbing a few extra VP as well by throwing it at units that haven't routed off the table yet and have just a couple of bodies in.

Gorak Dragon Rider wrote:
oh and I'd drop the archers completly and bump the spearmen upto 30 each, also mr sucks now you can save points by droping that.

I'm rather attached to my archers; they help deal with infiltrators and the sort of units that would've been hunting my RBTs under the last edition, and with the swift reform they can be handy for popping shots at units after the first crushing round or two of combat has pulled my units in different directions. Taking them out would leave me with just magic for any sort of ranged damage, and I've found occasions where there are things that could usefully be shot at that I wouldn't otherwise want to spend power dice on. They aren't exactly darkening the skies with arrows, but they're handy for scavenging VP and frustrating units that might otherwise be making opportunity flanking charges against my other units.

Worloch wrote:
Could still drop it to shave points of course, if you're not expecting or don't care if your unit is getting peppered by magic damage. I'm assuming it is on there to put the Archmage in that unit and act as a bunker until CC, since an Archmage w/ the book is defenseless without a bunker.

My Prince and my Archmage do tend to sit in that unit for the first couple of rounds, while I try and thing out enemy magic threats. It's handy for those occasions when I'm fighitng someone who's taken Fire, Light or Heavens, and I like having a unit with Magic Resistance that I can hide characters in. It's also a cheap way of getting that MR into my list without spending points out of a character's allocation or that of a unit champion. If I'm facing a list that doesn't really have direct damage dealing spells, the archmage often hides with the Phoenix Guard.

Thank you for the suggestions on my list :) Is there anything you can suggest about beastmen units or lists that I should be watching out for, or beware of?


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:09 am 
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gorebull bsb in ungorhoard, no foot[print issue sick combat and 4wound on a bsb with str5/t5, wildform, always dispell this! wildform is by far the best beast spell. ambushing units, but you haev awhol tuirn to deal with these and they may just not borther seeing how you do not have any warmachines, his minotaurs eating your archers for free frenzy, flying doombulls of er doom, but at 2500 it will probal;y be a beastlord and great shamman.

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Long ago dragon princes fought on the backs of great dragons, but now the dragons sleep and they ride to battle on horses instead. Proud, arrogant, but extremely skilled, able to impale two people with one lance thrust, they refuse to dip their banners in honour of the Phoenix King before battle
-Dragon Princes of Caledor


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:11 am 
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oh and as for MR in my local meta I've yet to see direct damage used any more that allows a save. death you might see but your ld destroys his/hers and hey they cnqa';t hold a candle to yea in the magic phase.

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Long ago dragon princes fought on the backs of great dragons, but now the dragons sleep and they ride to battle on horses instead. Proud, arrogant, but extremely skilled, able to impale two people with one lance thrust, they refuse to dip their banners in honour of the Phoenix King before battle
-Dragon Princes of Caledor


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:32 pm 
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I played my manager of my local GW 2000pts he uses Beastmen, I used DE last night and just about won due to his part bad deployment. his list was:

Doombull with 2 hand weapons, 2 head mutant thingy and the helm that makes every successful save hit the attacker back and also it had a 0+ save
BSB with the banner of rust, which allows no armour saves
Bray shamn lvl 3 with there lore of beasts
also had the special ungor character that can be a spellcaster or fighter in a unit of 20ish ungors
His BSB and Bray Shaman in a 20ish unit of gors
5-6 ungor skirmishers
3 minitoars that had the Doombull in
4 spawns of choas
1 Razorgor

Its all of the top of my head, we've rescheduled a re-match next Thursday and I want to use HE this time, my list so far

Teclis with lore of Shadow and Caradryan in 18 Phoenix Guard with full command
24 LSG with shields and full command
15 archers
20 Sword Masters with full command, banner of sorcery and talisman of Loec
total 1842

thats all I have so far, was thinking of adding a second mage with lore of life or RBT and 1 GE

so was wondering do i have the foundation of a solid build and what am I lacking, any help would be great :D

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8th Ed: 1 Massacres, 1 Solid Wins, 2 By the skin of my teeth wins, 0 Draw, 0 Defeat
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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:58 pm 
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Arious, that is a pretty awful beastman list, I think. 2000 pts with 2 lords, 2 other characters, and almost no troops?
0+ save is impossible in 8th edition. Banner of Rust is just armour piercing, not ignoring armour saves entirely.


Your army is a reasonable start. Certainly add a couple Eagles. And you absolutely want a BSB.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:35 pm 
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dabber wrote:
Arious, that is a pretty awful beastman list, I think. 2000 pts with 2 lords, 2 other characters, and almost no troops?
0+ save is impossible in 8th edition. Banner of Rust is just armour piercing, not ignoring armour saves entirely.


Your army is a reasonable start. Certainly add a couple Eagles. And you absolutely want a BSB.


I thought the unit of gors, skimishers gors and ungors counted as his core, and I maybe mistaken on the size of the units but they were 20+
Also I was told in my GW store that under the new rules a 2000pts army can have up too 500 pts worth of Lords and 500pts of Heroes aswell, I dont have the Beastmen army book on me unless I find a way to download it but I don't think the manager would honestly use the banner wrongly on purpose, but I admit that banner played that way did lay waste to my 24 unit of corsairs, my master and the assassin in two turns :cry:
With eagles I will be honest I dnt see any point with them if he's not using any war machines, and with the BSB should I give it the usual set up of Armour of Caledor and the ward save item?

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8th Ed: 1 Massacres, 1 Solid Wins, 2 By the skin of my teeth wins, 0 Draw, 0 Defeat
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Last edited by Arious on Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:49 pm 
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Not saying it was illegal, just that it probably isn't effective.

The primary purpose of Eagles is not to kill things, not even war machines. Their primary purpose is bait.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:03 pm 
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The Totem of Rust causes all units on both sides within 6" to have -1 armor saves, and all units in base contact have a -2 (including the unit with the banner) but it does not effect scaly skin.

So with -2 from being in base contact with the Totem of Rust and further penalties from Strength or Armor-piercing, it is not hard to see how he could have reduced your armor saves to non-existence.


I'm not sure how he got a 0+ save on his doombull though. Heavy Armor + Ramhorn Helm + Gnarled Hide only equals 2+.

Also, with a Great Bray-Shaman at lvl 3 coming in at 200 points base, and a Doombull coming in at 235 points base, and being limited to 500 points total for lords, he doesn't have a lot of room for a great many upgrades. By your account, he had the helm, and I figure he must have had gnarled hide for the Scaly Skin, so that only leaves 15 points for the "2 head mutant thingies" which I think was the Many Limbed Fiend Gift of Chaos, but that would put him 5 points over his Lords Allocation ...

Also, he can not have more than 2 rares of the same type, so I assume that is 2x units of Chaos Spawn with 2 each?


On your next match up, might want to ask to look at his army book and have quick review of his list ... I know it is all off the top of your head, so of course some things may not match up, but also remember that everyone makes mistakes and he may have accidentally added wrong or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:44 pm 
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Worloch wrote:
Also, he can not have more than 2 rares of the same type, so I assume that is 2x units of Chaos Spawn with 2 each?

I'm pretty sure Spawns are listed as 2 for 1 rares, much like other races Bolt Throwers. And it was either the new rulebook or the FAQ for it that pointed out that anything that used to be a 2 for 1 choice meant you could take 2 and have it only count as 1 for the purposes of limiting repeated choices.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:20 am 
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minitoaurs and doombulls you need monstorus killing blow to kill them rather than good old fashioned Killing blow? im gonna to my local GW later today and will have a word with him about his list

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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:22 am 
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Thank you everyone for the advice offered here. The game turned out to not be what I'd expected; I arrived, and was told that someone else would be joining in, and I ended up facing 1,000 points of Beastmen and 1,500 points of Dark Elves. I did a little judicious redrafting to my list with the agreement of the other playes (Archmage and Prince out, Teclis and Noble with RGOH in, some minor fiddling with units) and fought several rounds through.

I ended up facing:

Gorebull with various items (including that 0+ save mentioned above, which I thought was a little odd)
2 Chaos Spawn
10 Ungor Raiders
30 Gors with FC and additional hand weapons

Lokhir Fellheart
Lvl 2 Sorceress with +1 PD/DD item (rolled Blade Wind, Dark Horror)
Assassin with additional hand weapon, extra D3 attacks and some sort of poison
2x units of Corsairs
Bolt Thrower
6 Cold One Knights with FC, ASF Banner, Immune to Psychology item
15 Executioners with FC, Banner of Murder
10 Crossbowmen

I ended up messing up my deployment; my Noble with RGOH was on a steed and in with the Dragon Princes, but he was on the opposite side of my deployment area to his preferred target, the Gorebull. My opponents deployed across the board, Beastmen left, Dark Elves centre and right, crossbowmen and bolt thrower in the centre of their edge. I castled up on my left with my units in 2 ranks each to avoid the dark horror spell, infantry units first, then the dragon princes, then the great eagles, with the archers on the far right as bait.

The game consisted of me throwing the Eagles out right and hiding the Dragon Princes in woods and sniping with spells until I could get a decent round of magic off; the Ungors got a serious ignoring and spent most of the game shooting ineffectually at the White Lions, the Gors lost a chunk of their unit to a pit of shades, the Spawn ran into the middle of the board and the Gorebull kept getting hexed until I managed to charge the White Lions into him and the Phoenix Guard into the Beastmen next to him, backed up with a healthy dose of Miasma. Although the Gorebull had some item that spanked the White Lions for every armour save he passed, he got cut down in exchange for two models, and the White Lions overran into the Gors just as the Phoenix Guard arrived. The two units promptly cut about three ranks out of the Gors in one turn for the loss of two PG before the surviving half dozen Gors tried to run away and got run down.

The Dark Elves were playing an MSU game, and suffered more from their own sorceress than anything else. Although Teclis had an awful magic phase in the first turn, he did completely shut down the DE magic phase, and then in the second and third turns the Sorceress miscast each turn, blowing away most of her unit of Corsairs and ending up a level 1 wizard with one spell heading in the wrong direction. I kept moving away from his units while his Cold One knights chased my guys around a wood before getting fed a Great Eagle to keep them busy for a turn, and my Noble with RGOH almost leeched the life out of the Sorceress before the Dragon Princes romped straight through the woods, ate Lokhir Fellheart's unit in exchange for their own unit Champion (who died to an assassin) and wheeled around to run into and through one of the spawn.

We had to finish early, but I lost more models to the Dark Eldar Bolt Thrower and Crossbowmen than I did anything else. The Beastmen were largely ineffectual because Teclis kept hexing/miasma-ing them until the infantry units had a good opportunity to attack, and the game was heading towards me trying to spin a Spearman unit and hex the Cold One knights moving around the back board edge while my other infantry tried to get stuck into the Crossbowmen and Executioners. Teclis had some issues with magic (I kept missing casting values thanks to abysmal rolling - twice by just one point) but he shut down the enemy magic phase pretty firmly.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:49 am 
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Well it looks like your match went well =D> I can only hope my re-match with my HE goes as well as yours :) how many eagles did you run in your game? cause I have 150pts left over and can't chose between lvl 2 mage with life, 3 eagles or 1 eagle and 1 rbt? I know RBT suck but I want something that will help thin out the ranks before CC and with 3 eagles I think i'll miss use them and they'll end up being a point sink #-o

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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:59 am 
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I used 3 eagles in my game, although it wasn't an ideal game for them. The table really didn't have much by way of LOS blocking terrain, and two of the 5 terrain features ended up jammed up against the edges, so there wasn't anywhere they could get a good run at the bolt thrower from, which was my original plan. I need to reacquaint myself with the situation regarding shooting through units, because my opponents kept telling me that my Eagles couldn't get cover saves - even when the Reaper was shooting through the unit of Dragon Princes to get at the Eagles. With a bit more terrain, the Eagles would've been very useful.

As it was, one Eagle died holding the Cold One Knights up for a turn, the second was behind the unit with Lokhir Fellheart in when his unit broke - the only surviving model was the assassin, who failed his dangerous terrain test for running through the Eagle - and got shot down by the Bolt Thrower after that comment, and the third managed to charge into the Bolt Thrower the turn after. The Eagle that held up the Knights for a turn was invaluable, as it stopped them circling a wood and getting a charge in on Teclis' unit on that turn, leaving him free to drop spells that really ruined the Beastmen's day.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:22 am 
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hmmm I mite go with the 1 GE and 1 RBT, wish I could have the 2nd mage with life, but i'd have to take PG or SM away and I think i'll need the numbers

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8th Ed: 1 Massacres, 1 Solid Wins, 2 By the skin of my teeth wins, 0 Draw, 0 Defeat
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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:19 am 
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Well, at 2,000 points, Teclis is a really big chunk of your army. Don't get me wrong, I think he's an excellent special character, and I love fielding him... but depending on what you're facing, he can end up being overkill. I didn't get that many IF spells in my game, and while his extra dispel and power dice were useful, I didn't get a single miscast. I think I would've had a more effective lineup in some ways if I'd gone with the original archmage with book and prince with RGOH. On the turns with lots of dice flying around, I had enough Dispel Dice to shut everything down, but was running short of useful spells to throw across multiple units. On the turns with relatively few dice, I wasn't getting the IFs anyway.

With playing at 2,000 points, you can't really squeeze in both a prince and an archmage. If you're not playing Teclis, then you have to choose your lore in advance, and if you're not being consistent with it from game to game, you're really tuning your list against your opponents, which isn't really a great way to play.

Looking at your list, I'd slim the LSG down to regular spearmen, and I'd drop the archers down from 15 to 10. I think archers are useful, but they aren't going to stop an enemy in his tracks, and you're likely to be in combat from turn 2 onwards. Strength 3 shooting doesn't really do a lot by the time you've hit your enemy, made wound rolls, and then worked through armour saves... it's going to come down to a ferocious melee sooner or later, and you may find yourself wishing you had another melee unit of some kind to throw in there. You also don't have a BSB, which can be a serious disadvantage.

I'm curious why you have the Banner of Sorcery on the Sword Masters, rather than the Phoenix Guard? You want the banner around as long as possible to boost your casting, and the PG are far more durable than the SMs.

I'm trying to be careful not to argue that you should simply make your list look more like mine, because my list simply suits how I play, and everyone has a different style. I do think your list is a bit fragile and dependent on S3 shooting though, and that would make nervous.

At 2,000 points, I'd be inclined to drop Teclis for the AM with Book of Hoeth; you could squeeze in a level 2, then. The Annulian Crystal screws with your enemy's casting phase, but is expensive; the Jewel of the Dusk is a cheaper alternative that bumps your dice in both phases. The Death signature spell isn't that useful when the model throwing it is only LD8, but it does have some nasty character-killing spells in there, as well as a tasty hex spell. I've played with Life a little, but I've found it too easy for people to dispel the Throne spell and leave me with spells that feel... substandard. If you go with a second caster, I'd be tempted to consider something like Beasts; there are some useful spells in there, that aren't threatening like the big spells and which help tip things in your favour when it comes to the melee grind. I've actually also considered using Fire/Light because there are times when I just don't want to bother running a unit over to deal with annoying units like skirmishers, and an auto-hitting magic missile can work wonders for forcing Leadership tests on little, lightly armoured units without forcing you to commit more resources. Of course, you have the limit then of how many power dice are available.

Given that your enemy will probably have more units, you're going to get stuck in a grindfest sooner or later; having the eagles around and wizards who can buff key units/hex key enemy units makes a big difference, helping you break particular combats when you need to. The Eagles are handy for slowing up enemy movement in their turn - I'll happily feed an Eagle to an enemy unit if it gives me another turn to concentrate my units on the units they're ganging up on. I think that's more useful than lots of S3 shots, frankly. If you do get a BSB, you could always do what I think Giladis suggested, which is base most of his equipment around the magical bow that fires three high-strength shots a turn. It's not the single bolt or the spread of shots a Bolt Thrower throws out, but it's 40% of the cost, moves around the tabletop and can't be killed particularly easily.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:55 am 
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Location: South Wales
I can't shave points off my LSG or archers cause atm they're jst around 500pts, Im using teclis cause I have never used him before and wanted to test the waters with him, I think I will swap the banner into the PG unit to keep it alive longer.
I don't think im banking on my shooting its jst I was trying to maximise my core options, I will have a look at the cost of a BSB with the uber bow of doom, but I mite reduce the sword masters to 15 to free up some points for an eagle if the BSB with super bow is gonna be around 150pts mark

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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:40 pm 
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I think I'd be tempted to ignore shooting, in your position - I'd go for two units of 25 Spearmen including full command, and look to magic to even up any differences. The bows aren't going to do a huge amount against T3 creatures, and less against T4 - and there's a lot of T4 out there. If you end up in melee, dropping the toughness of your enemies or pushing up the strength of your spearmen, even by a single point, makes a significant difference.

Your opponent is almost always going to outnumber you; the best way to make sure your quality wins out over quality is to try and hold up their line of advance so that you can pile two units into one, break that one and then crash on into another unit. Eagles are great at that, because even if you lose the eagle, holding up an enemy unit for even a turn makes a huge difference. If an enemy can charge you in their turn, you're on the defensive against their supporting magic; if they're going to arrive anyway, I'd rather feed them the eagle, have the enemy unit overrun into my unit, and engage in my turn - preferably after I've hexed them or buffed my unit. I know big spells can make a difference to a battle, but I like lots of little spells that continue to shave the odds in my favour - that's one reason Teclis and Shadow go so well together; even if you don't use Occam's/The Pendulum/Steed, you have three useful hexes, all of which make life more difficult for your enemy, and which are crippling if two of the spells are stacked together. A lot comes down to weighing up your power dice, though... Teclis can power spells through enemy defences with IF, but you're likely to get between one and three spells off, by the time dispelling is thrown into the mix. Occam's is great if you've got one unit that's going to fight more than one combat, to get best benefit from it; the Toughness and Strength hexes are more efficient if you're looking at breaking an enemy unit with more than one of your units. I did that last night - I put the Toughness hex on the Gorebull, and the Miasma on the Beastmen. The White Lions charged the Gorebull, slew him, overran into the Beastmen, and then both the White Lions and the Phoenix Guard malletted the Beastmen. Without the hexes, combat would've been more protracted, and my units would've been held in combat in enemy phases, which is often a bad thing.

I think dropping the Sword Masters to 15 is a good move. You're not likely to get more than 7 in a facing at best, and maybe more like 5-6. A small unit is great for positioning to charge into the flank of an enemy unit that's locked in with your spears, where they can pile on casualties without having to fight for more than a round. Trying to take on a unit on their own... well, maybe with the Shield of Saphery running, or that Regeneration spell, but I'd rather hex the target unit, hit it with both Spearmen and Sword Masters, and then give the unit behind a headache.

Fighting at 2,000 points means some hard choices you don't really have to make at 2,500. One you've already found is that Teclis plus Caradryan means problems squeezing in a BSB, particularly if you don't want to reduce your model count. Are you content that you've covered the major threat vectors your enemy is likely to throw at you?


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:01 pm 
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I got work tonite, so I'll take another go at the list with some of the changes suggested, and I've been re-reading the lores of magic and I really did like Shadow when I used it but I think light or beats since +1 and the Amber Spear will be aimed at his Doombull till its dead

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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:19 am 
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Location: South Wales
improved list

Teclis, Caradryan in a unit of 13 Phoenix guard SB and M
BSB (either with standard stamina set up or maybe mini bolt thrower), lvl 2 mage in a unit of 13 Sword Masters
FC w Talisman of Loec and banner of sorcery
2x 25 Spear elves with FC
1 Great Eagle

that comes to a total of 2001pts (will come to 1991pts if i go with mini bolt thrower) lvl 2 will have lore of life and still un-decided about Teclis

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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:00 pm 
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Nuthromil wrote:
I used 3 eagles in my game, although it wasn't an ideal game for them. The table really didn't have much by way of LOS blocking terrain, and two of the 5 terrain features ended up jammed up against the edges, so there wasn't anywhere they could get a good run at the bolt thrower from, which was my original plan. I need to reacquaint myself with the situation regarding shooting through units, because my opponents kept telling me that my Eagles couldn't get cover saves - even when the Reaper was shooting through the unit of Dragon Princes to get at the Eagles. With a bit more terrain, the Eagles would've been very useful.


First, let me say I'm glad your game went well it seems.

Second, your opponents are probably just confusing multiple rules, possibly even remembering rules from 7th or 6th.

What you're looking for is on page 42 of the BRB under the Cover section. If the majority of the unit or more than 1/2 half of a single model (which is the case for a Great Eagle) is obscured, it gets a cover modifier. Due to True los and having Eagles mounted up on flying bases, they normally won't be obscured enough by say, spearmen, to get cover modifiers. Behind DP's, I think it would be.

Shooting through units, friend or foe, confers Hard Cover, as long as the above qualifications are met, so that would be a -2 to hit.

If some of a unit traces los through cover and others have clear los, you roll them in two separate groups with appropriate modifiers (BRB, pg 41).

Your opponents were probably mixing up rules though, thinking that Great Eagles as Monstrous Beasts would be Large Targets but they aren't. However, even the Large Target Special rule doesn't apply to cover modifiers from units, only from Obstacles.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:12 pm 
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Eagles are not Large Targets, therefore if they are behind a unit they get the hard cover bonus. Just because they are on a flying base does not mean they are "flying". If you read the rules fly involves swooping and landing. Therefore as long as the eagle is completely behind another unit, it is said to be behind hard cover and gets the bonus.


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 Post subject: Re: Tactics vs Beastmen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Awsten wrote:
Eagles are not Large Targets, therefore if they are behind a unit they get the hard cover bonus. Just because they are on a flying base does not mean they are "flying". If you read the rules fly involves swooping and landing. Therefore as long as the eagle is completely behind another unit, it is said to be behind hard cover and gets the bonus.


Indeed, as I mentioned in my post Eagles are not Large Targets; I was simply pointing out that maybe his opponents had some confusion over whether they were or what that would mean.

Even if they Eagles were Large Targets, it wouldn't matter with regard to cover from units, as the Large Targets special rule only deals with cover from Obstacles.

However, I do have to point out that just putting an Eagle behind a unit does not give it hard cover by RAW. If you look in the BRB under the Pg numbers I listed above, you'll see that cover from models is determined by true los. If more than 1/2 the unit or 1/2 the model for a single model (like the Great Eagle) is obscured, you get the cover. If not, you don't. So having your Eagle based in such a way that more the model is visible over most infantry models means you don't get cover as often. Behind Calvary like DP I think you could still get it though.

This is not always a bad thing though, as the elevated height allows you to declare flying charges against enemies behind other units, as you can draw los to them.


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