Are Lothern sea guard really worth it?

[krysith]

That's quite interesting, and it's heartening to know it can work. I take it you use a lot of Reavers? What of Shadow Warriors?

I don't want to side-track the discussion of LSG, so maybe I'll start a different thread with a mobile shooty HE tactica. I use a lot SW (typically 3 units of 6). I've tried Reavers, and sometimes they work well, but I like the SW better, both for their survivability against shooting (relative to Reavers), and because I like the models much more.

actually, I was one of many who thought (in the abstract) that 6" meant nothiing and have
from experience realised it means everything.

I also agree that the 6" is important. The important distinction when choosing between archers and LSG is: will the unit likely see combat? If the answer is no, archers are superior. Jedra and Angel have it right - when it comes to shooting alone, archers are definitely the superior choice.

However, if the unit is expected to see combat, the LSG make up for the loss of wounds done with shooting with a similar number of wounds which are delivered in combat. This is important, because while the archers and the LSGs may deliver the same number of wounds over the course of shoot, shoot, stand and fire, combat, the archer does more of their wounds outside of combat. Those wounds often mean the difference between winning the combat or losing it, or between losing it by a few points or by a lot. I have rarely had to roll for insane courage with LSGs. When my archers see combat, they usually lose, even if they hold for a round or two.

This is why I like to mix in a unit or two of LSG in amongst my archers. It is likely that something will make it close enough to my archers to charge. That's why I make sure that the archer unit that gets charged is actually LSG. Like I said, archers with spears. I suppose I could deploy a combat unit to guard my archers, but that unit could spend the whole game doing nothing - a waste of points. I'd rather guard the archers with more archers with spears.

If your archers never see combat, you have no use for LSGs. If they do, then LSGs are a better choice.

[Ptolemy]

So....suppose we have a list with no RBTs (very common lately) and the only shooting we have is found in LSG units. Would those who don't like LSG forsake shooting altogether and go strickly with spears?

No bows at all makes me nervous. In a tourament setting, there are quite a few armies against which standard str3 shooting is awesome.

[Janwin]

I tend to run LSG as my core, and it's worked very effectively for me.

At 1500 points I run 27 LSG with FC and the banner with flaming attacks, for 386 out of 375 required. I could drop the banner to points shave, but haven't found a need to. Flaming attacks on either melee or shooting is just too good.
At 2000 points I tend to run 20 LSG and 20 Spearmen, again with the flaming banner on the LSG and FC on both. Works out to exactly 500 points.
At 2500 points I tend to run 25 LSG and 27 Spearmen, same banners and command structure. Comes out to 628 out of 625 points.

I generally shoot for as few points in core as I can get away with, and my LSG have thus far proven rather good at doing either role I need them to do.

Yes, they have str3 shooting, but with everything wounding anything on a 6...they've taken out ogres and minotaurs in a pinch (or at least weakened them enough that my stronger units could finish them with ASF, while not letting them strike back).

The flaming banner is really useful since it applies to two phases. You can hit flammable targets in either phase, and stop regen in either phase. It's also a nice 10pt cheap banner to use to burn down buildings (you get to reroll to wound when attacking garrisoned troops in buildings if you have flaming weapons because you light the house on fire).

Yes, they're expensive, costing only 2 points less than our killy specials, but they definitely have a place.

I did a watchtower battle with me at 1500 and my opponent at 2000 (defender had less points, but got the tower). Put my 27 LSG in the tower with my archmage running shadow, and held him out of it the entire battle. Between being able to whittle him down as he approached with 27 arrow shots (3 levels, 10 shooters per floor in a watchtower), or being able to throw him out in assault (Mindrazor making s8 attacks), it truly made me happy to see them so effective.

I like having a unit that I can call on to fill whatever hole there may be in my army. If a hole is breached in a line, they can fill it. If not, they can plink arrows into the fray.

[PadForce]

At 2000 points I tend to run 20 LSG and 20 Spearmen, again with the flaming banner on the LSG and FC on both. Works out to exactly 500 points.

This is what I am planning, glad it is working out for you!

[Janwin]

Well, to be honest, I'd prefer both of those units at 25 (that way you can take some casualties but still deliver a full 4 ranks of attacks and still get +3 ranks to resolution), but it just doesn't work out at those points. I could swap one of the units for archers and beef up one of the blocks, but archers wouldn't be worth enough points and I'd end up beefing up beyond the point of usefulness (caps out around 27 or so before you're just bringing more guys than you'll likely ever need).

The two blocks do work out pretty well, though, even at 20. Convenient that it works out to exactly 500.

[PadForce]

Reallistically though these two blocks arnt there to win you the game, they are there because they have to be so I dont mind if they arnt 100% functional. I am happy with the spearmen serving as a diversion and the LSG as a teclis guard whilst my white lions/dragon princes/pheonix guard/spells make us the points.. on that basis an extra 5 models in each wouldnt make much impact on their purpose.

[Jedra]

However, if the unit is expected to see combat, the LSG make up for the loss of wounds done with shooting with a similar number of wounds which are delivered in combat.

You make a good point. In my last game against VCs, there was a nearby combat that I didn't want to get my archers involved in because I assumed that even with a flank charge on a unit of graveguard, they would probably get wiped out (I didn't even take light armour...). LA+S LSGs I could have charged in to support without too much fear...although I would need to have taken more that I had for the spears to be at all worthwhile.

[Xarhain]

6'' may not seem a lot in theoryhammer discussions, but when you are playing an actual game it makes a huge difference. For example you can deploy deep inside your deployment zone and still fire from turn 1 without moving, while most enemies can't since they have a 24'' range. It also gives you short range faster and the ability to reach further away.

No it doesn't. It gives you one or the other of those advantages. As soon as you deploy "deep" in your deployment zone (6" isn't deep, a cannon on the back edge is deep) you've lost your extra 6 inches. Sea guard can and will deploy further forward, and walk up. They'll actually get short range faster than archers.

edit: actually on T3, unarmoured opponents of equal size or smaller, their "average" roll invokes a panic test. 1/2 hit, 1/2 of those wound -> 1/4 dead.

That's what I was saying. It means you're archer unit has to be as big as the unit it's firing at to cause a panic test, some of the time. It'd have to outnumber them by some margin to guarantee it. How big archer units do you take? Being one of the most expensive missile units in the game, it's rare that they outnumber or even equal what they're shooting at, even if its opponents missile troops.

[Ptolemy]

Sea guard can and will deploy further forward, and walk up. They'll actually get short range faster than archers.

Exactly why they have worked for me. I don't know how others use them, but I deploy my LSG on my extreme flanks and use them as a flanking force. They deploy in two ranks to maximize shooting. There is typically nothing an enemy commits to a far flank that can take out a block of spearmen easily (even big monsters like Abombs still have to deal with me being steadfast, and one of my lsg have the flame banner).

Their ability to pour out 42 shoots a round (2x 21 man units) makes them able to pick off at least something. At my point level, I just can't find any other combination of lsg/spears/archers that doesn't cut into my special/rare/character numbers which will always be where HEs will win their battles. My configuration is the cheapest I can do, works in the roles I give it and are good enough for the 600 points I have to pay.

[Taliessin]

6'' may not seem a lot in theoryhammer discussions, but when you are playing an actual game it makes a huge difference. For example you can deploy deep inside your deployment zone and still fire from turn 1 without moving, while most enemies can't since they have a 24'' range. It also gives you short range faster and the ability to reach further away.

No it doesn't. It gives you one or the other of those advantages. As soon as you deploy "deep" in your deployment zone (6" isn't deep, a cannon on the back edge is deep) you've lost your extra 6 inches. Sea guard can and will deploy further forward, and walk up. They'll actually get short range faster than archers.

edit: actually on T3, unarmoured opponents of equal size or smaller, their "average" roll invokes a panic test. 1/2 hit, 1/2 of those wound -> 1/4 dead.

That's what I was saying. It means you're archer unit has to be as big as the unit it's firing at to cause a panic test, some of the time. It'd have to outnumber them by some margin to guarantee it. How big archer units do you take? Being one of the most expensive missile units in the game, it's rare that they outnumber or even equal what they're shooting at, even if its opponents missile troops.

Then, after that 4pt volly of str3 arrows, they will spend the rest of the game in combat (if they are lucky and don't get plain wiped out). Remember, a unit that has to move closer to shoot rather than being able to back up, is not going to shoot for long if your opponent has a unit nearby.

[Xarhain]

Works out to the same price as 2 or 3 volleys of 11pt arrows, and means you have less easy VP for your opponents to eat up.