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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:59 pm 
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Since the start of 8th edition I've not seen a single army that doesn't include LSG, I can't help but think that theyre not worth the points. Consider the points difference between spearmen and LSG as an upgrade to the spearmen, would you consider paying those points just to have a 24" range weapon at strength 3?

Consider further the new scenarios; without the benefit of a 24" deployment zone there is not so much benefit from ranged weapons. If you put a ranged weapon on a unit and they spend most of their time in CC then it's points wasted.

Just ask yourselves at the end of each battle could the job your LSG did be done equally well by a unit of spearmen. I'm curious to know what your experiences are.

My personal belief is that in light of the release of IoB people have fallen in love with the models and the idea of fielding them in the new 8th edition rules. I do not believe them to be competitive relative to their points.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:06 pm 
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Well I do love LSG, thou I haven't had much experience playing them... jst love teh fluff I suppose, I can see a tactical advantage to having them thou. Give them BotEF and they have magical/flaming attacks so they can harm regen/flammable units. I plan on using them to stand there and shoot stuff and wait for the enemy to come and impale its self on teh end of there spears. I know some armies don't play like that but that where you use there bows since they can move and shoot and if the stand and shoot you get to use volley, and tbh I think they're cool :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:35 pm 
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So far I haven't played any 8th edition games, but in 7th edition I used a unit of 10 with shields in my 2k army; they were there to guard my bolt throwers, and they were pretty good at that job. They were able to fight off most things the enemy threw at my bolt throwers and even a couple times the simple presence of them was enough to keep some units away.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:04 pm 
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Arious wrote:
Give them BotEF and they have magical/flaming attacks so they can harm regen/flammable units.


This seems to be a common misperception on this site. The banner of eternal flame bestows ONLY flaming attacks. It is not written anywhere that it give you magical attacks as a bonus too. The premise that "it is a magical banner, thus the attacks are magical" is, what can I say :roll:

On the original topic - I fully share your sentiment and do not rate or use LSG. Though I like theri fluff, 13 points is way over their reasonable and fair price


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:47 pm 
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I've used a unit of 14 as body guards for my archmage in every game so far. Mostly because I want to use my Maiden Guard but also because I wanted to try them out. After 12 games of 8th I'd say that they are OK. Personally I prefer spearmen to them and will drop them from my list once I have enough spearmen painted. They will most likely then replace my White Lions and use the rules for Phoenix Guards.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:01 pm 
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I really *want* to like seaguard. I like the idea of a unit that can be perform well in multiple roles. The problem is, seaguard just plain suck at both of shooting and combat.

I was thinking about doing a post about this at some point (every other high elf player at my local GW goes heavy seaguard to). I actually just typed up a really long reply to this detailing it. But... well... I just deleted it all by mistake :oops:. And I sort of can't be bothered to type an epic post all over again ;)

I'll just leave it at an "I agree". Seaguard suck. Whilst volley fire has, in a way, made them better, they are actually worse this edition, because you need to take more of them for them to hold their own in combat.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:13 pm 
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No, they aren't. But spears and archers are equivalently bleh arghle blargle blah.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:20 pm 
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Jedra wrote:
I really *want* to like seaguard. I like the idea of a unit that can be perform well in multiple roles. The problem is, seaguard just plain suck at both of shooting and combat.

I was thinking about doing a post about this at some point (every other high elf player at my local GW goes heavy seaguard to). I actually just typed up a really long reply to this detailing it. But... well... I just deleted it all by mistake :oops:. And I sort of can't be bothered to type an epic post all over again ;)

I'll just leave it at an "I agree". Seaguard suck. Whilst volley fire has, in a way, made them better, they are actually worse this edition, because you need to take more of them for them to hold their own in combat.


Pretty much my stance on them, I love the fluff, the models, and the tactical idea, but in the games I've played with them I've always found I would have done far better with a unit of spears and/or a unit of archers.

I think they have their uses, but it is not even remotely as a frontline unit, more as a flank/warmachine guard in a 10-15 strong unit size. Sadly however, with the state of RBTs in this edition you will rarely see them take the job of warmachine guard...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:16 am 
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They had a place in 7th when we had to take 2 Core units. You wanted to spend the least and get the most out of those slots so the LSG shone.

I tried larger blocks in 8th and I prefer taking an equivalent block of Spears and a smaller unit of Archers when I can. Let's face it, the S3 shots were just a bonus for the LSG. In the end, you used them as Spearblocks anyway.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:01 am 
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LSG are worth it in smaller numbers -- Like 20x. That way, they can deploy in 10x2, shoot, reform and then get on your way.

Anymore than that and it's too expensive.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:48 am 
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The problem with Archers is that with no armor, no standard, no champion they are easy prey for enemy warmachine hunters. In a list like mine (which seems to be common) where there are no warmachines to hunt, forcing enemies to engage my big infantry blocks (I run two seaguard blocks at 2400) is a form of points denial.

If those blocks had been spears with some archers behind (and I do think you need to have SOME semblence of a shooting phase, even if it is str3 bows), those archers would fall victims to enemy light cav, harpies, etc that have a very real chance of claiming 110pt units fairly easily.

Frankly, I think all elven core is garbarge. These arguments become what flavor of garbage you want to field. It comes down to what you want them to do. My Seaguard are archers in some battles, spears in others. Bottom line is that I want them in combat so I can mindrazor the unit. Could spears work just as well, yes. But I can't fathom having no shooting at all with 6s wounding anything now. With TLOS and randomized terrain making hill placements unlikely, getting clear lines to fire with archers seems problematic. So, I'm sticking with the Seaguard for now. They have worked very well and I have no complaints in their performance thus far.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:24 am 
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we have the best spear units in the game, there is nothing rubbish about them they only start to struggle against WoC whose combat prowess gives our elites a run for their money. Seaguard perform just as well as spears in combat but can provide a few turns on half decent shooting, true they are not going to break hordes of infantry, but they can soffen big units up before these units reach elven lines, I have used seaguard since 6th edition when i strated playing, they might be pricey but have one games for me.....its down to prefference, if want to spend 25% on the button and maximise your damage seaguard are the ones!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:15 am 
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Archers are in my experience one of the most resilient missile units in the game. Very few traditional war machine hunters survive 20 S3 (S&S+CC) attacks with re-rolls to hit for 10 of them. Especially since the lighter units that usually preform these kinds of jobs are a good target for archers from turn 1 and have therefore often already lost some models.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:02 am 
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Angel wrote:
Archers are in my experience one of the most resilient missile units in the game. Very few traditional war machine hunters survive 20 S3 (S&S+CC) attacks with re-rolls to hit for 10 of them. Especially since the lighter units that usually preform these kinds of jobs are a good target for archers from turn 1 and have therefore often already lost some models.

I tend to put my archers in light armour and give them a musician. It started out simply being because I have a load of the old metal archers from around 3rd/4th Ed, and they had armour on the figures, but I found that the light armour gave them more resilience than I expected it to. I'm used to WH40K, where a 6+ save is utterly pointless 90% of the time, but that one in six chance to save an archer from a volley of missile fire or an attack from a unit of light cavalry or other rear area units just seems to work for me. The musician was more of a later addition, because I decided that if someone was going to charge them I might as well take advantage of the reform and see if I can get that extra round of combat out. I don't expect the archers to charge anything, but they do seem to be good for knocking off harassment units and for soaking up a round of combat from some units.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:06 am 
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I'm still convinced Seaguard have a place in modern HE lists. I currently use 2 x 15-man units with Banner and Musician and a 10-man unit of Archers at 1999 (tournament practice :/ ). While they aren't particularly effective due to range and strength, I find that they are a great deal lot harder to deal with if you wish to kill them off. A 15-man unit deployed in two ranks can do a fair bit of damage to anything short of a Chaos Warrior.

I find that their ability to hold onto a banner is very useful in a Breaking Poing/Fortitude scenario. Plus, I seem to have very lucky rolling when it comes down to my S3 bows and often manage to surprise my opponents and pin-coution more than they'd expect :D

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:44 pm 
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Angel wrote:
They will most likely then replace my White Lions

You'll miss these, mark my words!

Nuthromil wrote:
tend to put my archers in light armour and give them a musician

+Std, + Champion! I'd give them the flaming banner too but my LSG need one.

I think it could be worth trying to exploit a narrow firing frontage with LSG. What with magic bows and such we can project a lot of firpower from quite a small space.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:05 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Angel wrote:
They will most likely then replace my White Lions

You'll miss these, mark my words!
They have not been performing as well as I hoped. So I'm going to try Phoenix Guards for a while instead. Swordmasters have been doing great, and they are killing a lot. I feel that the Phoenix Guards are a better anvil than the White Lions are due to their ward save.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:58 pm 
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Angel wrote:
They have not been performing as well as I hoped. So I'm going to try Phoenix Guards for a while instead. Swordmasters have been doing great, and they are killing a lot. I feel that the Phoenix Guards are a better anvil than the White Lions are due to their ward save.


Yup. Phoenix Guard are definitely a better anvil unit than White Lions. However, that's because White Lions are not an anvil unit. They are a hammer unit.

I've found them to be absolutely -devastating- to enemies I play against. I put them up against the biggest, baddest, scariest target the enemy brings to the field, and watch their str6 great axes cleave through anything in their path. I tend to run 14 of them with full command and my battle standard bearer (also with a great weapon), putting out 13 str6 attacks with rerolls. Not a whole lot walks away from that since almost nothing will get armor saves, and you need 2s to wound against most things.

Swordmasters are also very effective, but I've found that my White Lions are a bit more reliable due to a 3+ save vs. shooting from their cloaks, meaning that more of them will make it to the enemy and stubborn pulling them through if they do happen to lose the combat (usually, if they do lose the combat, they finish off whatever they were against the next round).

My Lions have lost count of the number of ogres they've killed. :D :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Athanoes wrote:
we have the best spear units in the game, there is nothing rubbish about them they only start to struggle against WoC whose combat prowess gives our elites a run for their money. Seaguard perform just as well as spears in combat but can provide a few turns on half decent shooting, true they are not going to break hordes of infantry, but they can soffen big units up before these units reach elven lines, I have used seaguard since 6th edition when i strated playing, they might be pricey but have one games for me.....its down to prefference, if want to spend 25% on the button and maximise your damage seaguard are the ones!

Our spearmen are good now, and with our ability to often reroll missed attacks they got even better in 8th but don't kid yourself, they are not the best by any means. Having said that, in the three or four games I have played in 8th, my unit of 20-24 Sea Guard have done very well. They may not be uber good in combat or shooting but they are good enough to get noticed, which is useful.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:05 pm 
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What's annoying me is that to get my Core up to 25% I have to drop something else and I'm not willing to run an infantry army. So that means the Lions but they were such a good 'hinge' unit between the cavalry and the Core. They also come with advantages (Missile Save, Stubborn, S4) built in which means I don't have to buff them with a character if I don't want to.

It's funny how simply swapping the Lions for the LSG (really Maiden Guard, like Angel!) means a complete tactical re-evaluation.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:14 pm 
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Janwin wrote:
Angel wrote:
They have not been performing as well as I hoped. So I'm going to try Phoenix Guards for a while instead. Swordmasters have been doing great, and they are killing a lot. I feel that the Phoenix Guards are a better anvil than the White Lions are due to their ward save.


However, that's because White Lions are not an anvil unit. They are a hammer unit.

They are somewhere between PG and SM. They are not as good as hammers as SM are and they are worse anvils than PGs. Sort of like the LSG are a mix of both archers and spearmen. Jacks of all trades, masters of none.

I'll try the PG for a while once I've painted up enough core to move the maidens from LSG to PGs, but that will probably take quite some time so I'll be using WL until then.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:46 pm 
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First, I have to say that I love my Seaguard and almost never play without them. My army is painted sea-green for a reason!

Second, I would like to say this about Seaguard: Seaguard are not spearmen with bows. They are archers with spears. This may seem like a silly distinction, but if you think of them this way, then their tactical advantages become apparent. Here is my reasoning for this:

I have noticed that there seem to be two opinions about Seaguard. And it doesn't seem to be just "like em'" vs "don't like 'em". Whether Seaguard are worth it for people seems to depend a lot on what the rest of their army is doing.

* If you have a very fighty army (e.g. lots of SM, WL, DP), and like to charge in and get to smacking, then Seaguard will never be worth their points to you. Spears do the same job just as well for much cheaper, and the few extra shots that Seaguard provide don't make enough of a difference to compensate for the extra Spearmen you could have had.

* If you have a very shooty army (e.g. lots of archers, RBTs, SW), and like to shoot as the enemy comes to you, Seaguard seem quite useful. If you take them without shields, they cost the same as archers with light armor (and note that Seaguard come with light armor). So, essentially the points cost is equal to archers. What you lose is 6" of range. What you gain are:

-ability to add a shield for a point (wouldn't this be a nice option on archers?)
-additional rank of attacks in HTH

So, what Seaguard offer are essentially slightly shorter range, slightly more armored, rather better fighting archers. If you are playing archers already and need a little more combat power when the enemy hits you, consider changing some of your archers out for Seaguard. Seaguard are so similar to archers that the difference in their use will be slight.

On the other hand, if you are considering using Seaguard in the place of spearmen - don't do it! They cost significantly more and don't do significantly more than spearmen when used in that role.

Seaguard aren't spearmen with bows. They are archers with spears. If you would'nt play with archers, don't play with Seaguard. If you would, they are a close alternative to archers which can compensate for the HTH weakness of a shooty army.

One other advantage to Seaguard comes not from theoryhammer, but from the pocketbook. I can only afford so many models. Seaguard models cost the same $ as spearmen, but are worth 133-144% of the points. When starting an army, this is an important consideration when trying to reach 25% core. Whether used as tough archers or poorly used as spearmen with bows, at least you can get your army on the table.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:10 pm 
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I completely agree that you should think of seaguard as archers with spears. However, viewing them in this role, in my oppinion, does not really make them a good choice.

Ok, first up, lets talk about that 6". Everyone *always* emphasises this when comparing them to archers, saying that seaguard are basically as good at shooting as they are. Unfortunately, that 6" is very very significant. On an average board there is a 24" gap between the deployment zones. With 24" range, only very precise positioning by both you and your opponent will allow you to shoot without moving on the first turn. That extra 6" means you can shoot well into his deployment zone right from the start. And with str 3 hits, you need to make as many as possible against *any* enemy if you want to do any significant damage.

Also, most move-or-fire weapons are 24''. Most notably the dreaded handguns that tear through our guys like chainsaws through melted butter. Archers can stay out of range and pick off small groups of handgunners (empire especially) without worrying about getting attacked back. I use them in support of my main, fighting force, picking off a unit at a time. Usually at max range they can still do enough damage to at least invoke a panic test. Very handy.

Finally, there's short range. 12'' vs 15'' short range moves your short range from slightly above average charge range (for a move 4) to near maximum charge range. So if you need to get those shots off before you get charged, archers are better for it.

krysith wrote:
* If you have a very shooty army (e.g. lots of archers, RBTs, SW), and like to shoot as the enemy comes to you, Seaguard seem quite useful.


I think you are right that this is the where seaguard start to make sense; if you have built your army around hanging back, letting the enemy come to you, and taking them out from range. Seaguard still have disadvantages to the archers for shooting, but they are a lot better in CC so this will balance out. But there is just one problem...

Why on earth would you ever make a shooting army with high elves?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:21 pm 
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I think i agree with you on the whole archers with spears concept, it is a good way to look at/use them.

Generally, the problem I think is just that HEs don't do very well with a shooty list, at least in comparison to the armys that are good at fielding a shooty list. I really don't have many plans of taking RBTs until somthing gets done to make them worth their extreemly squishy points.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:24 pm 
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Jedra wrote:
Why on earth would you ever make a shooting army with high elves?


Well, one of the nicest things about High Elves, in common with Dark Elves, Empire, and Lizardmen, is that the army is flexible enough to support many completely different styles of play. A hard-hitting dragon themed army can work well, and so can an Alith Anar shooting army. I have to say that shooty HE armies have worked well for me (went to US Ard Boyz finals last year), although I have nothing against melee armies. If I owned more WL and PG I might play them myself more often.

The secret to a good shooty HE army is that although other armies may have more raw firepower (dwarves, empire and skaven come to mind), we have two big advantages over these armies: movement and magic. If you just stand there and shoot, you will die, and its not much fun to play that way even if you win. However, a shooty army that is mobile and has spells that complement its strategy (not just curse of arrow attraction) is loads of fun to play.

One way that worked very well for me in 7th edition was to have most of my points in highly mobile units with ranged attacks (spell or bows) complemented with enough RBTs to present a threat. Against non-gunline armies, the usual strategy of the opponent was to get to the RBTs as fast as possible. No problem! By the time they took out the RBTs , the rest of my army was safely shooting them in the back, and the RBTs had already earned most of their points back through 3 rounds of shooting. Against gunlines, this trap wouldn't work, but I already had the best tool to deal with gunlines - high mobility. I wasn't so worried about cannons shooting my RBTs when I was charging Thorek on the second turn.

Magic has to be chosen to work with the strategy. Blast em' spells are nice to add to the firepower, but aren't the real killer. Spells which help control the movement phase are pivotal for a shooting army, more so than even for a flanking army. Consider a large 30+ model skaven horde barreling straight for a 16 man unit of archers. Which is more useful - melf's miasma (reduces movement) or mind razor (raises strength)? Both help the archers to deal with a unit they would not otherwise be able to handle, yet the cheaper (5+ vs 18+) spell may yield more of a point spread through denying the skaven a chance to hit.

It certainly doesn't hurt a HE shooting army that we always strike first, often with re-rolls. This is a dangerous enough defense with archers, but with Seaguard I have actually had opponents choose not to charge my unit which was shooting at them and go off looking for easier prey. The psychological effect of "I stand and shoot, then I attack, with re-rolls, all before you even get a chance to hit" can be interesting. In 7th edition, ASF meant it didn't matter if you charged, so why go to them?

I find that a mobile shooting army is much more fun to play than a static gunline. Imagine if wood elves had access to awesome mages (all lores, Teclis), RBTs, better magic bows and helpful items like dragon armor, and that is the kind of army I like to play.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:24 pm 
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That's quite interesting, and it's heartening to know it can work. I take it you use a lot of Reavers? What of Shadow Warriors?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:30 am 
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Jedra wrote:
I completely agree that you should think of seaguard as archers with spears. However, viewing them in this role, in my oppinion, does not really make them a good choice.

Ok, first up, lets talk about that 6". Everyone *always* emphasises this when comparing them to archers, saying that seaguard are basically as good at shooting as they are. Unfortunately, that 6" is very very significant. On an average board there is a 24" gap between the deployment zones. With 24" range, only very precise positioning by both you and your opponent will allow you to shoot without moving on the first turn. That extra 6" means you can shoot well into his deployment zone right from the start. And with str 3 hits, you need to make as many as possible against *any* enemy if you want to do any significant damage.

Also, most move-or-fire weapons are 24''. Most notably the dreaded handguns that tear through our guys like chainsaws through melted butter. Archers can stay out of range and pick off small groups of handgunners (empire especially) without worrying about getting attacked back. I use them in support of my main, fighting force, picking off a unit at a time. Usually at max range they can still do enough damage to at least invoke a panic test. Very handy.

Finally, there's short range. 12'' vs 15'' short range moves your short range from slightly above average charge range (for a move 4) to near maximum charge range. So if you need to get those shots off before you get charged, archers are better for it.


To be honest this all sounds like a lot of theory hammer. Play more games and you'll realise these are not issues. First of all, it is very rare that the difference between 24 inches and 30 inch range makes a difference. Even if it does make a difference it means that they're more than 24 inches away from you and as such aren't an immediate threat.

Next, handguners don't shoot at archers. If they're taken, they blow away swordmasters, lion chariots and spearmen. More often than not they're eschewed in favour of more war machines, and rightly so. Being able to keep your archers out of handgunner range is really no advantage. And no, at max range archers can't do enough damage to invoke a panic test, unless they're lucky or outnumber the T3 no armour unit they're firing at.

Finally, people don't charge archers! Nobody cares about 10 str 3 shots hitting them once a round. If they do charge your archers it's because they've nothing better to charge, and even then it's likely it'll be with a fast unit that could get there, or is already very close, like fast cav or a tomb scorpion or miners and suchlike, in which case the difference between 12 and 15 inches is really irrelevant.

So overall, the extra 6 inches of range is a nice bonus once in a blue moon, but isn't something I'd pay points for, let alone convince me of taking a unit over another one.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:55 am 
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actually, I was one of many who thought (in the abstract) that 6" meant nothiing and have
from experience realised it means everything.

Sure, people shoot at your troops not archers. When your troops are not in close combat. But lets face it... you're fighting a gunline, so by turn 3 at most your troops are going to be in combat or have pushed through. Seaguard are a viable target at this point (easy source of a few 100 VPs). archers aren't.

edit: actually on T3, unarmoured opponents of equal size or smaller, their "average" roll invokes a panic test. 1/2 hit, 1/2 of those wound -> 1/4 dead.


Last edited by Jedra on Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:32 am 
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6'' may not seem a lot in theoryhammer discussions, but when you are playing an actual game it makes a huge difference. For example you can deploy deep inside your deployment zone and still fire from turn 1 without moving, while most enemies can't since they have a 24'' range. It also gives you short range faster and the ability to reach further away.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:53 am 
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I havnt had a chance to try it out but I swapped a unit of 20 spears and 10 archers for a unit of 20 LSG.

Previously I had Teclis in the archers and was constantly bricking it about typically inconsequential enemy forces hunting him down because the 10 archers are so rubish.

Having him in a LSG unit means the unit can still be used for firing without having to get into combat whilst he casts spells. When he/they do get charged you get to fire first.

I am hoping the above tactic will prove a decent way of protecting the most expensive part of my army whilst allowing the unit he is in to be used and my other units not to have to stick around so much to protect him. If anybody has any practical insights into trying to do this tactic please let me know.


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