Teclis

[mcpolle]

Sorry guys, a little rant here, WHY oh WHY do many of you people play with special characters?????

Many a list I look at, the first line says TECLIS, I just flick "back" and don't even bother looking,

With this new edition, there are many many options, so why not go and try some new things instead of using that "crutch"

Come on, I really thought the Asur, were made of better things than this.

Ok rant over:-)

Polle

[Ring87]

Cause you look at the other guys list and it says Thorek. Take the high road and bring a knife to a gun fight.

I agree with you though. I don't want special characters. But everyone is like hey it's a new edition lets see what happens. I kind of knew after I read the rules for spells and warmachines what this edition was going to be about. Without comp I think your counting on your opponents good graces to not field utter filth.

You can say anything goes but all armies are not created equal. People are using Army Books 2 editions old....

[Telabir]

It's not always Teclis, sometimes it's wannabe Teclis (archmage with 'book of winning'). The reason is, we're not as durable (if you can call an elf durable) as we were due to stepping up so we need to compensate in other areas. Magic has had a big boost in this edition, and after all it's always been said the Asur are a magical race, so now it's time to prove that claim.

[Taliessin]

Why? because he/ an AM with BoH make our army top tier. I don't think the term "crutch" is very apt for this situation. Yes, hes powerful, but that is not the entire definition of a crutch. He requires skill, and stratagy to use correctly, (sometimes more than a hack'n'slash list would.) and for an object to be a crutch, it must be not only powerful, but also easily used to the fullest effectiveness by a complete noob.

To the extent Teclis is a crutch in your oppinion, then so are all units other than archers in the HE book. Strong =/= crutch.

please prove how leet you are by playing an army composed entirely of archers (who dont shoot, only take flank attacks) and a noble (with no gear, who sits in a corner swinging at himself every turn to give the opponent victory points). Kinda hard right? well playing against an armybooks easily recognized strengths is basically the exact same thing, just to a lesser extent

Seriously, enough with the unit choice rants already!
There are fewer options this edition than last, and theres even fewer VIABLE options. If a HE player does not take a strong magic phase, than he will be crushed by gunline armies.

/rant_over

[Aryel]

I only bring Spec. Chars. in battles of 3500 pts. or more, mostly for themed battles. And pretty much all my gaming groups (old and new) agrees with me.

They're boring in my book. And fluff wise, they don't show for small skirmishes. And I'm from the old school, where you had to ask permission to your opponent to field them

Cheers.

[SpellArcher]

First up, terrific result at the ETC!

I do sympathise with this thread, I'd like to see some different builds being used. Unfortunately 8th edition does seem to encourage a HE list with several large blocks, Archmage with IF,Lvl2 to taste, BSB with World Dragon/GP+AoC, PG, eagles, that's about it. Teclis just happens to be the biggest hammer available.

[Tethlis]

He requires skill, and stratagy to use correctly, (sometimes more than a hack'n'slash list would.) and for an object to be a crutch, it must be not only powerful, but also easily used to the fullest effectiveness by a complete noob.

Oh please.

Deploy Teclis.

Cast spells.

Profit.

Is Teclis out of range?

Move him within range.

Profit.

It's not rocket science. "Strategy" for Teclis involves deciding which spell you want to cast first.

[Brian Mage]

Tethlis is right.
Teclis is pure push button win time. I love his fluff and have used him, but all it served to do was make my mates not want to play. I now won't use boh or Teclis.
It doesn't necessarily make you a poor general to take Teclis but no one will ever know if you're good or not.

I agree that specials should not be used unless its discussed. I hate turning up to find im facing a total cheese lists when i just want to have some fun.

[Dracos]

True true

Teclis has always been bofo but now it's well . . . what more needs to be added to what's been said already?

Today's Teclis is yesterday's Thorek.

Fact is our local Dwarf player would never use T-horek. He knew it was ridiculous, and while Teclis isn't quite so blatant, it's a near thing.

Strangely enough I don't have quite the same issues with AM /BoH. I guess I just believe the only justification for playing a Special Character is if he allows a "special" army build. Such as Throgg or Wulfrik

[Arcsheild]

In the campaign the I'm playing at the moment we are not allowing special characters. I'm not against fielding Teclis, and personally I would just ask the player you're battling at the time whether he minds you taking special characters or not (if he's a noob, then be nice and show him what teclis can do before he decides on his vote ). That way, it's fair, and players know what they'll potentially be up against. I agree the Teclis is incredible, and, if played the right way, extremely over powered, but keep in mind that he does cost a wooping 475 pts, which is 105 pts more than a Star Dragon.
I'm not saying he couldn't woop said Star Dragon's butt, I'm just trying to put things into perspective .

Basically, I believe you should play your strengths, but try to be fair, or you'll find that there'll be a lot of Anti-Teclis units out there in you fellow players armies if you keep spamming him. He is toughness 2 after all

[Flame of the Asuryan]

Teclis just wins. Nuff said.

[Taliessin]

He requires skill, and stratagy to use correctly, (sometimes more than a hack'n'slash list would.) and for an object to be a crutch, it must be not only powerful, but also easily used to the fullest effectiveness by a complete noob.

Oh please.

Deploy Teclis.

Cast spells.

Profit.

Is Teclis out of range?

Move him within range.

Profit.

It's not rocket science. "Strategy" for Teclis involves deciding which spell you want to cast first.

Theres alot more than that to just about every piece of the game, your forgetting the part where you have to protect your almost 500pt investment with your life, and the part where thats easier said than done.

I'm not saying hes the most difficult piece to use in this relativly easy game, but he is by no means a "crutch" Crutch means a person with zero brains cells can make use of him, (there are units/armies like that in warhammmer) Hes not one of these.

Anyway, I've been disagreed with on this topic before, and I suspect I will be again, but I think everyone is drastically overstating his "easy-factor" I would say any single CC army has a tendancy to be easier to manage than any magic phase oriented army.

[Minsc]

He requires skill, and stratagy to use correctly

Thanks for making my day.
I think Tethlis post summed it up pretty neat.

your forgetting the part where you have to protect your almost 500pt investment with your life, and the part where thats easier said than done.

It's true that he dies easily in close combat (more so now in 8th Ed.), however he can easily IF any protective spells he want cast on himself (4+ Regen from Lore of Life for instance), and he is placed in a unit of ASFers, probably with S5+ and with reroll to hit, so you need a quite large unit to begin with if you even want to be able to alocate attacks against him.
Also, appart from the 4+ Regen granted by Lore of Life, you also get +4 T, making him T6, and suddenly he's not so squishy anymore.

Lore of Life is basicly made for Teclis. (+4 T, 4+ Regen, Lifebloom if he get's injured, etc.)

[lathian]

It's true that he dies easily in close combat (more so now in 8th Ed.), however he can easily IF any protective spells he want cast on himself (4+ Regen from Lore of Life for instance), and he is placed in a unit of ASFers, probably with S5+ and with reroll to hit, so you need a quite large unit to begin with if you even want to be able to alocate attacks against him.
Also, appart from the 4+ Regen granted by Lore of Life, you also get +4 T, making him T6, and suddenly he's not so squishy anymore.

Lore of Life is basicly made for Teclis. (+4 T, 4+ Regen, Lifebloom if he get's injured, etc.)

Spending 500 points on protecting itself is a losing strategy. I do agree he's not that hard to use correctly however.

[Minsc]

Yes, because giving himself (and his unit) 4+ Reg and +4 T is a loosing strategy. (You don't necissarely need both at the same time.)

It's not like he'll have PD over to get of Dwellers below either right? (Especially since Teclis + BoS Averages at 11 PD/turn.)

[lathian]

You're spending 3 spells on buffs and trying to get IF. You don't have spectacularly good odds of getting off dweller in addition, no. Not without risking a few buffs not going through, or without the currently debated use of your items to generate more than 12 PD a turn.

A tough unit is all well and good, but depending on the unit chosen, you're either going to be spending a thousand points on one unit including Teclis, or you're going to have a very tough unit that still doesn't do anything other than protect Teclis.

[Minsc]

You're spending 3 spells on buffs and trying to get IF

Technically it's only 2 spells.
Throne is obviously cast if it's down, but due to it's RiP nature, your opponent will have to use his PD in his magicphase to remove it, meaning that you effictively shut down their magic phase.
If Throne is up, you cast both regen and +T (say, 3-4 PD each).
If Throne is not up, you either cast Throne + one of the defensive spells, or both the defensive spells and ditch Throne for the time beeing. You're correct that spending 3 spells on buffing yourself would be a waste - that's why you (or at least I) would only try to get 2 spells trough.

Either way, you will have ~4 PD left for Dwellers.

And I'd never use that 1000+ pts unit as a bunker, I'd probably have it close to the frontlines, especially if it's buffed.

[lathian]

A 1000 point bunker on the frontlines isn't going to make its points back. You need some kind of ranged ability to prevent an enemy from just parking a few cheap units in front of you to redirect, and if your other 1000 points get too shot up, you won't gain any objectives.

The throne can be dispelled by the enemy easily on two dice if they have a lord mage, and with 3 near guaranteed with a level 2. That's hardly shutting down their magic phase. I also don't like tossing just 4 dice on dweller when I could eschew spending it all on protection, and spend it on the offense instead, but if that's your preference that's your preference. But tossing 4 per with Teclis means if you don't IF any of the three spells, that one is dispelled. What do you do with throne up, but not regen?

[Keith]

A 1000 point bunker on the frontlines isn't going to make its points back. You need some kind of ranged ability to prevent an enemy from just parking a few cheap units in front of you to redirect, and if your other 1000 points get too shot up, you won't gain any objectives.

what objectives? This is 7th edition thinking, the unit doesn't need to get any points "back' just not give up its own and protect Teclis. Teclis gets the points.

Also, just because some people cannot prioritize targets correctly, does not make doing so a 'skill'. Which is really the only thing you need to do with Teclis. Oh and pick the right lore for your enemies army. Another 'skill'.

[CrazyCarl]

I think (hope) that a lot of the Teclis talk is brought on by the 'Ard Boyz prelims coming up in two weeks (and then the Semifinals and finals after that).

[mishari26]

I've used Teclis in every game I played since April. I feel no shame in it. I like that he's a BIG JUG of squishy 475 victory pts for my opponent.. one which.. if he wasn't up to the task of taking. he shall pay dearly for his lack of bravery ;P

[gnoblar]

I like that he's a BIG JUG of squishy 475 victory pts for my opponent.. one which.. if he wasn't up to the task of taking. he shall pay dearly for his lack of bravery ;P

+1

I've had Teclis sniped out of units by cannon balls/mortars twice in 8th ed.
When all is said and done, he is a T2 sack of flesh. Any opponent who isn't targetting him with every warmachine they have is doing something wrong. He can only pass so many LoS saves. (and even when he does pass the save, it's not a wasted shot, because you have hit the unit)

Yes, Teclis can have defensive buffs up on himself/bunker, but that is power dice he's not using to destroy the foe. Teclis + bunker = a huge points sink that isn't/shouldn't make it into combat. Teclis needs to be doing the killing, and if he's casting def buffs on himself, then:
a) he's not buffing the rest of your army, which by the way is massively outnumbered because 1) you're Elves and 2) you took Teclis.
b) he's not killing as many pts as he could.

Personally, I see him as a huge liability. If he lives, that 475 pts you've denied your opponent. You're likely to have won on victory points.
If he dies (which, lets be honest, a T2 elf with no saves 'should' die if your opponent has any modicum of sense) then you have probably lost.

He is powerful, but i don't believe he's in any way "broken" or the point + click game-winner everyone thinks he is. Are people just forgetting that he cost 475 points???!!

[Teclis Smash]

I like that he's a BIG JUG of squishy 475 victory pts for my opponent.. one which.. if he wasn't up to the task of taking. he shall pay dearly for his lack of bravery ;P

+1

He is powerful, but i don't believe he's in any way "broken" or the point + click game-winner everyone thinks he is. Are people just forgetting that he cost 475 points???!!

I agree with you. The goal with Teclis is to at the very minimum is to kill enough opponents to equal his value. Hes so easily killed and I really think the whining needs to stop. Every army has a powerful mage and with the right lores and items can be strong. Perhaps not Teclis strong, but strong enough to be a force in the game.

[gnoblar]

The goal with Teclis is to at the very minimum is to kill enough opponents to equal his value

Have to disagree with you there - the goal is no longer to "get your points back"... units now either give up their full points, or they don't. Simples.

Things only need to get their points back if they're going to die doing it. If they live, and only kill 50 points worth of stuff, that's a net gain on VP.

Problem with Teclis is he's 475 points of uber target... who also happens to be Toughness 2....?!

People who think Teclis is a ridiculously powerful Mage would be correct. People who think he's overpowered for his points are wrong. There is a big difference.

[Taliessin]

Thank you, gnoblar, for giving me the feeling i may not be crazy after all!

[Teclis Smash]

The goal with Teclis is to at the very minimum is to kill enough opponents to equal his value

Problem with Teclis is he's 475 points of uber target... who also happens to be Toughness 2....?!

This is why you must wipe out enough units worth 475 points. When I say this, I mean fully kill an entire unit of troops, thinning them out enough so that your other units can finish them off, or have them fleeing on snake eyes until they run off the board. Lets face it, Teclis is always the target of all of their magic, shooting or heavy melee troops. Hes too easy to kill and will cost you many VP's in the process.

[Sturen]

Teclis, if you made him with an archmage and all the correct items from our army book that he has the effect of, is ~100 points more expensive than he is costed, add in the ability to pick your lore, take multiple dispell scrolls, add 2D3 dice, and he is at least 150 points cheaper than he should be. So saying he's 475 points, as if it's a downside, is a little pointless. As for his squishiness, it's not hard to keep him safe realistically. Take a WL or PG block and you're sorted. Take the 6+ ward against warmachines for good measure and he's not going anywhere. And he really controlls the magic phase. That is not up for argument. Averaging 11 dice, and IFing most spells, he makes the enemies entire magical investment a waste really. He was considered cheesy in 7th, and he's only been buffed since.

There is, IMO, only one way to field Teclis in a challenging way. Put him in a small infantry unit (like 7 SMs) and take lore of shadow. Fill your hero allowance with cheap heroes on foot and give them their own units of 7 SMs. Give Teclis shadow lore, and go SM hopping to keep him alive. Surviving that would be a fun challenge

[gnoblar]

Teclis, if you made him with an archmage and all the correct items from our army book that he has the effect of, is ~100 points more expensive than he is costed, add in the ability to pick your lore, take multiple dispell scrolls, add 2D3 dice, and he is at least 150 points cheaper than he should be. So saying he's 475 points, as if it's a downside, is a little pointless.

Sorry - but that might just be the most flawed logic i've ever heard! Seriously - just adding more items onto one dude does not increase his points "worth" on a straight line basis.

Take for example, Teclis. If on top of his own items, if you could give him every offensive arcane item in the game, and lets say they total 2000 pts.... does that make him worth 2475 pts?? Of course it doesn't, because he still (say it with me now) TOUGHNESS 2 WITH ABSOLUTELY NO SAVE!!!

I would certainly pay the 150 pts extra you have [ahem] "calculated" if it meant i could spread them across characters. Here Mr Prince, have the Sword of Teclis. Here Lvl 1 Mage, have this Uber Scroll...

The "discount" special characters get is certainly a factor of putting many shiny items in one basket. Teclis' discount just happens to pretty huge because, (yes, you guessed it...) HE'S TOUGHNESS2 WITH ABSOLUTELY NO SAVE!!!

And he really controlls the magic phase. That is not up for argument.

Not arguing - see my earlier post RE: being a great mage vs. being worth his points.
Simply throwing in the occasional tangential correct observation does not suddenly give your other arguement more substance. If that were the case, i'd say "Teclis begins with a T and ends with ECLIS".... or "Stegadons are big"...

As for his squishiness, it's not hard to keep him safe realistically. Take a WL or PG block and you're sorted. Take the 6+ ward against warmachines for good measure and he's not going anywhere.

Wait wait wait wait wait.... you cannot "cost-up" Teclis in a vacuum, and then argue his low toughness and no save are irrelevant because he can hide in units with additional items. How expensive has this vacuum Teclis suddenly become???!!!

Models/characters are not costed up in a vacuum as Sturen tried to incinuate in his prior post. They are costed within the context of the entire game. It is not as simple as 1+2+3=6.

[Sturen]

I'm not arguing that Teclis should be worth 625 points, I'm simply arguing that he is extremely good value. Teclis, due to the fact that he uses a illegal (where it on a mage) combination of items is in fact even better value! If you could put several arcane items on an archmage the items would have a higher cost. So having Teclis with all these items, several times an archmages point allowance, is extremely powerful. I agree that costs should not be and are not based on formulas, but adding 200 points of items to a character increases his power by at least 200 points. That is why the items are costed as such.

As for Teclis, sitting in his bunker becoming a huge points sink, that is a little bit of a moot point. Teclis, his bunker and 3-4 great eagles could beat most balanced lists, despite being half the cost. The bunker, by definition, is a durable combat unit and there is no reason why it cannot partake in combat, it may even be safer to do so, as you avoid war machine shots and much magic.

Models/characters are not costed up in a vacuum as Sturen tried to incinuate in his prior post. They are costed within the context of the entire game. It is not as simple as 1+2+3=6.

I admit, I maybe didn't make my point clear enough, but this is really my point. Not only does Teclis have very powerful magic items, but he gains more than the items value from the way those items work together in the context of the game. A good example is Teclis's scroll, with that scroll, we have access to 3 dispelling items, more than any other army. And two possibilities to destroy a spell. These items combine multiplacativly as opposed to additively. In other words, the more you have, the better each gets. That is why Teclis is so strong.

I apologise if my post is unclear, it makes sense in my head, typing it, so it makes sense, is harder.

[Musashi]

At the moment, Teclis is very synergistic; he gets to ignore the first miscast, he has boosted PD/DD, he knows all spells.

Too bad a strong breeze will blow him down.

It's hard to calculate the true value of Special Characters, but with the correct strategy and list, 475 is an attractive cost, considering the potential possibilities that come with his inclusion.