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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:28 pm 
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At my local store 2500 is becoming the norm for our battles. In that regard, gone are the days of 2, 10 man units of elves as our minimum core at any point level and so I would like to focus this tactica on the new standard of taking 25% core at 2500pts. I plan to break this down by point totals and overall choices to fill those totals.

Personally, I plan to get as close to 625 without going over too significantly as our core has never been our strong suite, I want every point I possible can get for my specials, characters, and eagles.

2500pts 25% core = 625pts! - Thats a fair number of points to fill, so lets get to the options! far more than we have ever had to fill and I find it to be one of the biggest nerfs the high elves have received this edition. You might say but everyone has to do it! and you would be right, but others can benefit from this across the board mandate to a level that it works out in their favor, especially against elite armies like ours.

For instance lets go with skaven who can take slaves at 2 pts a model!! thats 300 models worth of skaven in core! compared to our 69 thats alot of furballs coming at us! This issue has further ramifications as the horde rules and steadfast GREATLY benefit those 2 pt skaven models more than they do us. In fact I could argue the fact elves would never take horde, and will rarely use steadfast.

Anyways, on to the tactica

Topics to cover:

1. Core Unit break down
2. Infantry Fielding Formations
3. Potential Unit Combos


CORE UNIT BREAK DOWN:


Archers (48 archers for 625pts)

Like I said, 2 core units of archers for minimum core is gone. They are actually a third rate choice in the current meta game as large blocks of infantry are required to hold the lines of battle or break enemy steadfast units, remember those 300 slaves coming at you?. Additionally, every army got faster with the new charge rules which means less turns of potential shooting. The place I now see them is for filler of the minimum core we would need or maxed out for a gunline. However, since Elves have such horrible war machines for there cost, I do not see this as a competitive build...or fun.


Spearmen 69 spearmen for 625 pts (this does not reflect commands just total possible models)

Our cheapest choice, but still double the points of most armies core brick units. However they of course have a few benefits over there choices. In eighth edition they can now fight 4 ranks deep without going horde! 5 ranks in horde and with the new ASF rules will be rerolling failed hits against most ever unit (I cant think of any unit with init 6? anyone?). Beyond this they are weedy little dudes with low tough, save, and strength.

Seaguard 48 spearmen (with shields) for 625 pts (this does not reflect commands just total possible models)

Spearmen with bows for a premium above our base spearmen as they now get a ranged attack. Their bows can also use volley fire if they stand still or fire in 2 ranks if they move.

The attack formation is even better for Seaguard as it maximizes the number of shots allowed. 15(22 volley) to a steadfast formations 10(15 volley) at minimum suggested size.

However, the next item to look at is if its worth it to take seaguard over taking a mixed force of spearmen and archers. Lets say we took 2 units of 28 seaguard with shields and full command thats 778pts. You could take 2 units of spearmen with full command and 2 units of 10 basic archers for 774pts!. That gets you 2 more units, 6" more range with 8 less normal shots and 18 less volley fire. Thats a hard decision... Do you want more units or a concentrated force of spears/bows? I leave it to each general to decide. I will likely try both options but I am personally a fan of more units, creating more targets.

INFANTRY FIELDING FORMATIONS:

In 8th edition one can argue there are now three rank widths 5x(minimum), 7x (max attacks against minimum), 10x (horde) I will break these down.


5x (Steadfast formation)- 4 ranks deep can get 20(21champ) attacks not bad and higher than any other core unit in the game can pull off! Minimum size should be 5x4 for maximum attacks out the gate. I call this stead fast formation due to it being the minimum size required to get large ranks to have steadfast. The problem us elves have is we pay a premium to get it while other armies have options as low as 2pts a model up to 6pts a model on average. Only a very small few have core units as expensive as ours so if someone wants to beat us at the steadfast game they damn sure are going to and for far far cheaper.

7x (Attack formation)- 4 ranks deep gets us 28(29champ) attacks. Maximum attacks against all formations! hence forth dubbed the attack formation. I personally believe this is our new sweet spot and we should be going for 7x4 ranks. Going a minimum of 7x4 and adding more ranks if your going for steadfast.

10x (Horde formation)- 5 ranks deep gets us a staggering 50(51champ) attacks but at a staggering cost of 475 pts including full command. Not a good option in my opinion or hordes are drastically more expensive than the normal hordes and it only gets us one more rank of fighting spearmen.


POTENTIAL UNIT COMBOS:

Keep in mind I am trying to hit 625 exactly or go slightly over as I find our core units are not our strengths and would like to save every possible point I have for specials, characters, and great eagles.

Option 1

(554pts)2x 28 spearmen in attack formation (7x4)
- Full command
(110pts)1x 10 Archers in steafast formation (5x2)

664 pts total - This is the absolute minimum I feel any general can field. Keep in mind you can shave these points down if your including some characters in these units!

Option 2

(414pts) 1x28 Man Seaguard Unit (7x4)
- Shields
- Full Command
- 20-25 pt banner
(220pts) 2x10 archers in steadfast formation (5x2)

629-634 pts total - As close to a gunline core as we can get with 34(48 volley) shots down range a turn. Not a bad option in my opinion. It needs a banner to put it over that 625 edge! anything 20 or 25 pts would do it. You could even go for a 15pter and add a musician to an archer unit.

Option 3

(389pts) 1x 28 Man Seaguard Unit (7x4)
- Shields
- Full Command
(277pts)1x 28 spearmen in attack formation (7x4)
- Full command

666 pts total - Unless your superstitious this is a good mix of the two giving you two solid infantry units of which one can shoot! I personally would prefer Option 1 that gets me another unit for 4 points cheaper and only 4 less shots 11 less in volley.

There you have it, a tactica on core choices at 2500pts, which you can extrapolate up or down at your leisure.

DISCLAIMER! The intent of this tactica is not to say this is the end all be all of core choices for high elves but more to point out some ways to look at your builds and make your decisions. Its purely intended to get the creative juices flowing and pair that up with some solid math to help you make those decisions as to what core units you will take.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:41 pm 
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I'd like to add one to the list:

2x 24 LSG in max shooting formation (8x3)
- Full Command

674 pts total - This is the most flexible option in my opinion, especially for the list that I take. You have 40 shots a round while the opponent comes to you, and then you use the musicians swift reform to form up 6x4 if the unit you are in combat is only 5 wide to max out attacks.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:48 pm 
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I personally would like to take

20x LSG's + musician

20x LSG's + musician

10x Archers

total = 640 pts.

This way your Archer's long range will harass your enemy to come to you, and all your core will be in range shooting for 2 turns atleast. your LSG's spread in 2 ranks of 10.

and as soon as your enemy gets within charge range, your LSG's do a swift reform into 5x4 block, move in to protect the Archers as needed, and shoot half their arrows and still be very combat worthy for next turn's incoming charge.

Or you can just throw away the Archers and add more LSG's to these 2 units :)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:58 pm 
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Same tactics, different preferences. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:05 pm 
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I'm currently favoring the following:

28 Spearmen, FC, War Banner - 297 points (Attack Formation)
15 Sea Guard, Shields, FC - 220 points (Steadfast Formation)
10 Archers - 110 points (Steadfast Formation)
Total - 627 points. Only 2 points over! :D

Gives me some good flank protection and a decent amount of ranged attacks. A little bit of everything!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:33 am 
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I run similar to bolt thrower.

24 Spearmen, FC
19 Sea Guard, FC, shields, banner of discipline
10 archers

638pts


Spearmen go 5x5 with a noble leading. The sea guard are the bunker for my archmage, and utilize sea guard versatility to move up or hang back, whatever he needs, while making him a ld 10 general as well. I'm tempted to drop the sea guard down to 14 but I don't like wasting the high elves martial prowess rule to enable a 4th rank to attack.. and all it would do is beef up the spearmen or archers more.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:18 am 
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Location: South Wales
Well i'm new to this and my first ever High Elf force i'm going with a 48 block of LSG with Lvl 2 mage and Elatharion or Prince that has similar weapons and probably a better protection gear. This unit alone hits the 625 mark and then some but im curious to see how they well they do... and if I find out it doesn't work then i'm always open to change tactics :P The main thing to the LSG survival will depend on the lore I take too

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
At 2500 I use:

25 Spearelves, Full Command, 15-25 point banner
25 Spearelves, Full Command
10 Archers

for 625 - 635 points


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:41 pm 
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the way i see it, is that most our enemyes will come with greatweapons or halberd (if they can) and in hord formation so our 5+ save is close too gone :(

a unit of 20 spearmen gett 20 attacks wich is good but so do the enemy....we can win the figth but not the battle

a unit of 20 seaguards gett there shooting on top of the melee wich make the figth easy too win

a unit of 30 archers wich is the only unit we can take in hord and pay for :D shoot better that the seaguards and kill the enemy in CC just as well, but dont have +5 save

So my plan is
Option 1
2 units of 30 archers with banner and musican cost 690 one of them take the fire banner for 10 points

Option 2
2 units of 20 archers no comand (10x2) 440 point
1 unit of 20 spearmen full comand 205 points and take a magic banner if you like

Option 3
1 unit of 10 archers no comand 110 point
2 units of 20 seaguads full comand 570 points and take a magic banner if you like


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:28 am 
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I'd say spearmen are actually really good for their points now. Not as good as our special/rare, but good nonetheless. now my thought is that we are best off taking spearmen in units of 30 this costs quite a bit (315 with fc+warbanner) but it has a few advantages: 1) we'll still have 20 attacks in the second round, 2) we can take a template weapon hit and still have a combat unit 3) with such a big unit you can hold up killy units a while (even if you take 9 wounds a round you still have steadfast for 2 rounds, which is enough to charge in, arrange support and then charge in your next turn) 4) the unit is quite hard to panic and it is hard to shoot enough of the unit to reduce effectiveness.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:11 pm 
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If my mass horde unit of LSG 10 by 5 fail horribly I'll probably go for option 3 rip.dk post, I'd always chose LSG over any other core choice cause they are so versatile, with my horde unit I've chosen the lion banner, anyone else got other suggestions when I'm fighting an army with no fear/terror causing unit.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:35 am 
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I thought about this last night, High Elves in 7th were able to take only one core choice so do you think when they do a new High Elf book that again we will be given the choice not to field 25% of core and instead maybe half of 25% or a more rounded percentage?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:48 am 
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I still didn't play a game, I will start at the end of August due to holidays an so on, but I prepared a list I intend to test. This list include the following (similar to Bolt Thrower :) ):

28 Spears, FC, WarBanner (7x4 Attack Formation)
14 Lothern SeaGuards, SH, Mu (7x2 attack Formation)
14 Archers, Mu (7x2 Attack Formation)

What I am scared of with this 8th ED, is the amount on hordes I will have to face. This is why I will want to maybe try th3 2 units of 28 Spears. It is the only response we can hive to all the cheap infantries around.

Even if we have only 3 core choices ( I believe that SH should go back to core) we have maybe good combinations. But I will have to playtest :?

Spears for hordes
Sea Guards for flexibility
Archers for long range and for facing all the hordes/cheap units that can have great weapons as stated by Rip.dk

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:51 am 
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Arious wrote:
I thought about this last night, High Elves in 7th were able to take only one core choice so do you think when they do a new High Elf book that again we will be given the choice not to field 25% of core and instead maybe half of 25% or a more rounded percentage?


it could be :)

or it could be that other units will move from special to core (SH in 6th ed were core units :) )

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:42 pm 
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Marsyon wrote:
Arious wrote:
I thought about this last night, High Elves in 7th were able to take only one core choice so do you think when they do a new High Elf book that again we will be given the choice not to field 25% of core and instead maybe half of 25% or a more rounded percentage?


it could be :)

or it could be that other units will move from special to core (SH in 6th ed were core units :) )


But in 8th SH aren't that good, would pefer Elisayn Reapers to Core since DE have Dark Riders as Core, i would pefer the lower cap for our core [-o<

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:50 pm 
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At 2500 points I will most likely run the following as my core units

23 Spearmen: Full Command
19 Sea Guards: Full Command
14 Archers: Standard, Musician

One unit can then take a banner.

For 3000 points I just add 4 sea guards and a 25 pts banner, or another spearman or two.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:30 am 
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Arious wrote:
I thought about this last night, High Elves in 7th were able to take only one core choice so do you think when they do a new High Elf book that again we will be given the choice not to field 25% of core and instead maybe half of 25% or a more rounded percentage?


I think if they wanted to do that they would have done it with the Errata/Faq like they did with the Elite Army rule. What i think we are likely to see next edition is different units moved to core, particularly i can see Reavers, and possibly Silverhelms moved to core. Possibly shadow warriors...but this is all jsut speculations i don't want to start any rumors or get peoples hopes up.


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