Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:44 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:30 pm
Posts: 151
Hello all,
I'd like to start a discussion on killing super characters. You know the ones, blender lords, demon princes, the stubborn 3++ chaos lord, 1+rr4++ elf characters and the like. For me, these kill the game. No matter how well I move and jig, I will lose the game because I cannot go near the character deathstar that holds 1000 points of mages/BSBs/superman. There are variations on this, so let's limit the discussion to those characters that roll solo and those that hide in a unit.

Solutions:
1) Kill the unit.
-If the guy is in a deathstar, there are other models that can be used to gain combat res. The difficulties with this come when the make way/challenge mechanics are used to take your 21 white lion attacks and cut them down to 9 on the champion, hero's locked in a challenge, and so the other 6 go on the tanky lord. Stubborn crown on the mage lord and boom, no dice. Over time, the lions get ground down and you're out of luck. Potential solution is hold/flank, but with combat reforms, mr. tanky blocks off 3 20mm files after the first turn. Still, probably the best option. I had a great game against this forum's Furion where his helm bus was killed to a man, but thanks to excellent character positioning, I never had enough attacks to dent the characters that were winning the combats for him.

2) Destroy Key Items.
-The only way to do this is with Vaul's Unmaking. It makes the spell 100% dispel priority, but then you're stuck with high magic, and I have yet to use it convincingly. User error probably key. Thoughts on this are appreciated.

3) Shoot it.
-So far, my best successes come when I just run away and shoot/magic the deathstar down and ignore the characters. This works less well with solo-rolling super men since common tournament consensus is to hammer BS shooting as best as possible. For the record, I think tournaments have chosen to interpret rules to make BS shooting worse than it probably should be regarding line of sight. The disadvantage here is that HE are frequently outshot and it really requires a specific army design to make it work. Specifically, 4 bolt throwers and heavens/shadows/metal magic. I'm a loremaster kind of guy, btw.

4) Death magic.
-By far the most popular lore out there and it has several tools for picking out lone characters. These characters usually have protection against death magic, however, and it doesn't help as much once you're in combat. -1s is fine until you realize that s7->s6 doesn't mean much for your t3 2+/5+ elves. Still -3 ld and snipes are pretty sexy and offer checks to the rampaging nastyness that is superman.

5) Avoid it.
-Very common advice that I'm sure people will give here. I have tried. Flight, points sinks and magic have thwarted my attempts. Thoughts appreciated, especially if you have a bat. rep. to back it up.

Other thoughts appreciated. I really just want to take people's crutches away and super powerful single models are the biggest crutch I can think of.

Cheers,
Ether


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:59 pm 
Offline
D3niROTCODht01
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:09 pm
Posts: 1274
Location: Virginia
Arcane Unforging is great against characters with magic items, because A) It wounds on their armor save (which most characters sport a pretty good one 2+ or 3+) but also B) Because it destroys a magic item on a 2+ (since as written it doesn't state "if the guy takes a wound" it just automatically destroys a magic item on a 2+). If it takes dispel priority you can pretty easily get off a Soul Quench into something worthwhile still, maybe even a Fiery convocation since a lvl 4 should be able to Unforge on 3 dice.

For killing guys in a unit. If you hit them where the characters aren't (flank/rear) we have ASF so will get to attack the unit before they can make way for their attacks, so you break up enough of the main unit and you might be able to take down the characters through combat resolution.

Avoidance is a key one. I played a game where I realized he had built a Ogre Gutstar (6 Ironguts, led by a Slaughtermaster, Bruiser, and 2 Butchers) I threw some reavers to them, and got the rest of my army the hell away from them to kill everything else.

_________________
Nox's Painting/Modelling Log

Nox's Battle Report Log


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:16 pm
Posts: 36
Domine Nox wrote:
Arcane Unforging is great against characters with magic items, because A) It wounds on their armor save (which most characters sport a pretty good one 2+ or 3+) but also B) Because it destroys a magic item on a 2+ (since as written it doesn't state "if the guy takes a wound" it just automatically destroys a magic item on a 2+). If it takes dispel priority you can pretty easily get off a Soul Quench into something worthwhile still, maybe even a Fiery convocation since a lvl 4 should be able to Unforge on 3 dice.

For killing guys in a unit. If you hit them where the characters aren't (flank/rear) we have ASF so will get to attack the unit before they can make way for their attacks, so you break up enough of the main unit and you might be able to take down the characters through combat resolution.

Avoidance is a key one. I played a game where I realized he had built a Ogre Gutstar (6 Ironguts, led by a Slaughtermaster, Bruiser, and 2 Butchers) I threw some reavers to them, and got the rest of my army the hell away from them to kill everything else.


surely at the end of the day though that death star unit has to be tackled otherwise its game over


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:45 pm
Posts: 152
piggypod1 wrote:
Domine Nox wrote:
Arcane Unforging is great against characters with magic items, because A) It wounds on their armor save (which most characters sport a pretty good one 2+ or 3+) but also B) Because it destroys a magic item on a 2+ (since as written it doesn't state "if the guy takes a wound" it just automatically destroys a magic item on a 2+). If it takes dispel priority you can pretty easily get off a Soul Quench into something worthwhile still, maybe even a Fiery convocation since a lvl 4 should be able to Unforge on 3 dice.

For killing guys in a unit. If you hit them where the characters aren't (flank/rear) we have ASF so will get to attack the unit before they can make way for their attacks, so you break up enough of the main unit and you might be able to take down the characters through combat resolution.

Avoidance is a key one. I played a game where I realized he had built a Ogre Gutstar (6 Ironguts, led by a Slaughtermaster, Bruiser, and 2 Butchers) I threw some reavers to them, and got the rest of my army the hell away from them to kill everything else.


surely at the end of the day though that death star unit has to be tackled otherwise its game over

Aslong as you have enough VP you dont actually need to finish it off.

_________________
"Today we mourn Sir Technical, horrifically dismembered in battle. He was unable to survive the fight, but his form was impeccable!"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:22 pm
Posts: 27
Domine Nox wrote:
For killing guys in a unit. If you hit them where the characters aren't (flank/rear) we have ASF so will get to attack the unit before they can make way for their attacks.

Really? Make Way says that it happens even before Impact hits, and I have always thought Impact hits go before everything else in combat (even ASF).

*checks*

Rulebook says Impact hits go before "attacks of any other kind are made."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:30 pm
Posts: 151
It's not usually an issue because you can lock a char in place with your post-combat res reform, keeping them in the fight (to the front, for example) while you flank. You get one turn where you can attack the flank of the bus.

Good points DomineNox, but the main issue I have with avoidance is when 800 points of unit and 1000 points of characters are hanging out in there, the remaining 600 points are probably around the same cost as your redirecting units/6th turn bolt thrower casualties.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 9:33 pm
Posts: 121
I played a game at the weekend versus a WoC list with Nurgle DP, Nurgle chariots and Chimera. The chimera and DP hunted as a pair and completely obliterated my lion horde sporting BOTWD. I had one turn to shoot at the DP and then it was game over. This guy is proving a real thorn, I ain't beaten my mates Chaos list since he started fielding this DP. I'm stumped, can't avoid him, can't kill him!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:28 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Hi ED,

A very good topic! I will definitely come back to you with some examples from my games when something worked for me but I will also need to prepare some pictures to better illustrate it. So, please, be patient! All I can say now is that it often involved combination of shooting/magic/combat. Simply because you could get some wounds here and there and finally kill the beast!

In the meantime two things I wanted to ask about:

Quote:
I had a great game against this forum's Furion where his helm bus was killed to a man, but thanks to excellent character positioning, I never had enough attacks to dent the characters that were winning the combats for him.


Would you be so kind and tell me more how exactly the situation looked like?

Quote:
It's not usually an issue because you can lock a char in place with your post-combat res reform, keeping them in the fight (to the front, for example) while you flank. You get one turn where you can attack the flank of the bus.


How do you lock the character in front rank with combat reform if they are attacked to the flank only? I am sure I am missing something so thanks for help in advance :)

Cheers!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:30 pm
Posts: 151
Hello Swordie, thanks for stopping by! I will illustrate some of the things Furion did in an update to this post.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
How do you lock the character in front rank with combat reform if they are attacked to the flank only? I am sure I am missing something so thanks for help in advance :)


I was unclear. There was a unit of white lions fighting to the front, so there would be one unit to the front and one to the flank. UB pics when time allows!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:24 am 
Offline
D3niROTCODht01
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:09 pm
Posts: 1274
Location: Virginia
@Jartree my mistake then. I always had make way happen at the characters Initiative step. I guess I stand corrected.

_________________
Nox's Painting/Modelling Log

Nox's Battle Report Log


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:01 am
Posts: 1532
Orien wrote:
I played a game at the weekend versus a WoC list with Nurgle DP, Nurgle chariots and Chimera. The chimera and DP hunted as a pair and completely obliterated my lion horde sporting BOTWD. I had one turn to shoot at the DP and then it was game over. This guy is proving a real thorn, I ain't beaten my mates Chaos list since he started fielding this DP. I'm stumped, can't avoid him, can't kill him!


Why didn't you focus fire on the Chimera to kill him, since your main combat unit has a 2+ ward vs the Daemon Prince but not the Chimera?

That describes basically all my games vs Warriors with a Daemon Prince: I've killed pretty much everything else, fed the Prince a fair bit of my army, but still ended up wit ha win of 1000+ points each time.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 9:33 pm
Posts: 121
That will be an approach that I will try. There was a lot on the board giving him some target saturation. From memory...

1 Nurgle DP
1 Chimera
1 Nurgle Giant
1 Lvl1 sorceror with skull of katam
3 x 5 Dogs
2 x Nurgle chariots
2 x 18 blocks of Tze warriors
1 x Nurgle Gore chariot.

He won first turn as well, and had a box cars magic phase, then in the second phase he channelled 3 dice with the skull of katam and towelled me a bit more. Complete beating


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:01 am
Posts: 1532
A strong army. Try to do a cost benefit ratio in your head for what you should be shooting at, e.g.
1 Nurgle DP - Unless you can kill it outright, if it's going up against BotWD, probably don't bother shooting
1 Chimera - Deadly in combat, especially to BotWD unit, try and murder (especially if Sisters are nearby)
1 Nurgle Giant - Trash, and it's always a shame to kill them before they hit combat ;)
1 Lvl1 sorceror with skull of katam - if he's targettable, sure
3 x 5 Dogs - trash, but if you can kill whole units in one go, then do
2 x Nurgle chariots - too tough for anything but single bolts, beat them in combat if possible
2 x 18 blocks of Tze warriors - require a lot of shooting investment to whittle down
1 x Nurgle Gore chariot - too tough to shoot, isolate and beat in combat if possible


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:26 pm 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Hi ED!

As promised some examples. Please, bear in mind these are more ideas rather than definite solutions. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't. My usual approach so far was to avoid the big nasties and protect my own characters as often the enemy is after fragile but expensive general or bsb.

Example 1 - Avoidance

This is example from my old game and the one I added to the very long post on some MSU observations:

Image

In the game against Daemons of Chaos I faced a big challenge (literally!) in the form of Bloodthirster. I managed to elude his attention for some time and it happened that I needed just one more turn to survive with my characters. As you can see on the diagram I positioned my 2 units at an angle with only a small gap in front. My characters were between the units, one inch away from each regiment and presenting their front to the Bloodthirster. In that situation Bloodthirster could not land between them to attack my characters. He could only charge a unit. As he had to maximize the number of models in contact it also meant he would not be able to pursue or overrun into my archmage either. Another important factor here is that I didn't have any champions in these units so I could not challenge and by sacrificing one be able to remain steadfast one turn longer. It did help, however, to be able to cast Courage of Aenarion to make the regiments stubborn as the one attacked suffered too many casualties to remain steadfast. Thanks to this formation my characters survived the game and when we calculated the points it was a draw!

Of course we don't have an access to Courage of Aenarion anymore but Light Magic can help here too. It is more about the principle when you deny landing zone for the enemy and force them to waste time on less juicy targets.

Example 2 - Close Combat

Kill them with Swordmasters (or other hard hitting troops). I run mine with a Bladelord so that I can challenge the beast and then use a lot of attacks from the unit to kill the enemy. It is not a guarantee as it depends on how well your opponent rolls his armor/ward saves but sometimes it does work.

In the following battle I managed to defeat a Chaos hero on a juggernaut this way:

Battle 97 (2013/07/21) - Battle 2 - 2400 vs. Tzeentch Warriors

You will also notice that in the same battle a simultaneous charge failed to kill the Daemon Prince despite the fact that the units attacking were White Lions and Dragon Princes. Still, something worth consideration I hope.

Example 3 - Combat Resolution

Break them with static CR. It works even better if you can still challenge them, thus minimizing the damage they can do (no t-stomp) and also if you do so with heavy cavalry. It works very well on Sorcerers on Disks as they also have few attacks. I managed to achieve that in this game:

Battle 78 (2013/02/23) - Battle 7 - 2400 vs. Warriors of Chaos

Dragon Princes held and then Swordmasters charged to provide extra bonus from charge and rear.

Example 4 - Shooting

Shoot them! Yes, it might be difficult but if you throw enough sticks at them they will eventually fail enough armor saves. It is of course going to depend on the situation. It might be more beneficial to shoot at other targets, also dangerous but at the same time easier to eliminate. Again, have a look at the game against Tzeentch WoC. What heavy cavalry and lions failed to achieve was done by shooters.

Example 5 - Magic

This is example I got from one of my games but also from the game of a friend of mine. In my game:

Battle 80 (2013/02/28) - 3000 vs. Strigoi

I played against Strigoi Ghoul King. I cast Final Transmutation on his horde unit. The advantage was that I could kill some ghouls in his horde unit. But as a bonus I got his Vampire Lord too.

The example from another game is when the very same spell was cast at Blood Thirster over and over again until the 6 was rolled. It is quite possible it was also 6-dice casting but still. Getting a 6 might be at less than comfortable odds but 1 in 6 chances are worth trying.

There are more spells out there that might be good against certain characters, not only from death magic.

In general one could use all of the above and eventually kill the Superman. The challenge lies in the fact that they never come alone. So the decision has to be made. Do you want to focus on the character and destroy it or do you prefer to fight against its minions.

Cheers!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:30 pm
Posts: 151
First off, an apology. This thread is very interesting, but master's theses tend to get in the way of warhammer time!

Thank you Swordmaster for a very in depth post. I will have to look at these again.

I think we have covered a lot of the basics of lone super-characters. I would now like to redirect our attention to characters in units and the use of challenges and champions to deny attacks. Because I think it will come up lots in the coming months, let's use dark elves as an example:

Image

I apologize for the small size. The upshot is that there is a unit that doesn't want to be hit by lots of small strength attacks, as those from phoenix guard and spear elves. To minimize incoming attacks and to protect the characters from BS based shooting and magic missiles, the DE player sticks the 1+ armor characters into the front rank, taking up 4 of 5 spaces. Now, since command has to be in the front too, the DE player chooses to put the champion up front. This means that only 1w can be dealt to the unit. All of the other attacks have to be allocated to the characters, who are rock hard. If the combat ends up being favorable, the DE player can expand frontage and combat reform the characters onto the extremes of the fighting ranks so that more executioners can get in on the action.

This is one example. Bretonnians do something similar, though they have an easier time of it since they only have to protect a frontage of 3.

In terms of dealing with this kind of thing, I think the best response is to put something sacrificial and sticky (large unit of lions, phoenix, phoenix guard) in the front and a multi-attack unit (sword masters, dragon princes, chariots) into the flank. Of course, this is problematic if the unit is stubborn (I really hate that crown...) and able to reform to deal with the new threat. From that point, I think it would be a grinding match with the HE player throwing units in until the executioner block was all gone and hoping it didn't cost more to kill than you put in to eradicate the unit in question.

If you say avoid it, ok, sure. But the mobility of the pegs means that denying you points for his unit will still let him gather points from yours with relative impunity.

So there you have it, characters can deny attacks from units and force us into wars of attrition that we don't want to fight.

Thoughts on dealing with this kind of strategy? Death magic does not count, btw ;)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:46 pm
Posts: 446
Ether Dude wrote:
Of course, this is problematic if the unit is stubborn (I really hate that crown...) and able to reform to deal with the new threat.

That won't happen if you have a unit to the front and a unit to the flank. A unit engaged on two or more sides can't make a combat reform! So even characters can't move within the unit if they are already in btb with the enemy (Make way! only works if the character is not in btb with the enemy).

As for the issue you raise, it's interesting indeed. Such units should usually be avoided/redirected until it can be charged from multiple fronts, with a special care for redirecting the characters themselves (so they can't charge out, or at least limit that possibility).

Note that it may be different for Pegasi characters since they fly. That raises a rules question: p.70 of the rules book states that "Units made up entirely of models that can fly can move or charge normally on the ground, using their Movement value, or instead choose to fly." So... can Pegasi fly if they charge out of unit alone, or not? If not, they are subject to redirection. If they can fly, however...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:39 pm
Posts: 2062
Location: Cathy
Iluvatar wrote:
Note that it may be different for Pegasi characters since they fly. That raises a rules question: p.70 of the rules book states that "Units made up entirely of models that can fly can move or charge normally on the ground, using their Movement value, or instead choose to fly." So... can Pegasi fly if they charge out of unit alone, or not? If not, they are subject to redirection. If they can fly, however...

They can fly out to charge.

_________________
ETC WHFB Team Singapore
2014 - Chaos Dwarfs & Most Favoured Enemy
2015 - High Elves & Top HE

T9A
Highborn Elves - Army Book Committee
Balancing Board
Highborn Elves - ex-Army Support


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:18 am
Posts: 560
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Death-stars tend to be vulnerable to the big uber spells

Death- Purple Sun low Initiative Deathstar

Shadow- Pit of Shades or Mindrazor a big unit to fight the Deathstar.

Life- Dwellers good vs. most but not so effective vs. High Strength troops

Metal- Final Transmutation good vs. all


I would try re-directing the Deathstar with Eagles and or Reavers and meanwhile weakening the Deathtrap with Magic and Shooting. In the meantime the rest of your forces can deal with the rest of his army. Hopefully by turn 4 you can mutli charge the Deathstar and kill it if it hasn't died to Magic and shooting.

This may not always be possible but if you have destroyed the rest of his army and successfully re-directed the Deathstar then you should be ahead on points.

_________________
2008-2013 Wins:Draws:Losses
7th Ed High Elves 18 : 9 : 4 Bargle Con I, Best General, 3rd Overall
New High Elf Book 16 : 1 : 5 Bargle Con II, 2nd Overall, Conviction 2nd Overall & Best Sportsman

MSU List: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=48650


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group