The High Elf With Great Weapon Re-roll Debate

[Booth]

Under the new rules it states that if a model has Always Strike First and has the Always Strike Last rule (given by wielding a great weapon) that the two rules cancel each other out and the model strikes at initiative order. However, with the Speed of Asuryan rule, a High Elf retains Always Strike First regardless of the weapon it is equipped with. It also says that if a model has the Always Strike First special rule and has equal or higher initiative than their opponent then they can re-roll misses in combat. However, as previously stated usually this cannot be used with a great weapon as the two rules cancel each other out. In my mind it is clearly stated in Speed of Asuryan that a unit like Swordmasters or White Lions would retain their always strike first and thus still benefit from re-rolls even though they have a great weapon. I realize this is not everyone's thinking, but I was wondering what you guys thought about the matter.

[HERO]

omg.. not here too.

Here's a 35-page thread about the subject on warseer:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261098

Close thread until the FAQ please.

[Silver]

There can't be a debate over something that hasn't been ruled yet - wait for the Errata then we can continue this discussion. No need to close it unless people start debating pointlessly on something that might be answered next week.

[Volkos Lark]

when is the errata supposed to come out?

[Aethyr]

Same time as release, and apparently people have seen it and we maintain rerolls and strikes first.
Im concerned with high elves being pigeon holed into the 'theyre cheap and cheesy' category and people not giving me games - but i think its the same as when 7th was released, 'the sky is falling the sky is falling...oh, i beat them, how about that'.

[Chracian]

'the sky is falling the sky is falling'

Did chicken licken tell you that?

[Aethyr]

Nah, Luci Druchii

[Musashi]

High Elves ain't cheap; their northern cousins, however ...

As regards to GW and HE, especially SM, we'll have to wait and see.

[Booth]

I hardly think Warseer is the place to get a definitive answer. I was asking people who have played High Elves for a fair amount of time and seen then evolve how they thought the next step in this evolution of the rules would effect them.
It does seem like High Elves got a lot better than Dark Elves, what with ASF giving the same benefits of Hatred and more.
I've played a fair number of games with my High Elves and some people have indeed called me cheesy just for using the army, no matter how tame my list was.

[Bolt Thrower]

I fully expect that high elves will strike first regardless of the weapon they carry. Do I think this will make us cheesy? No. I think the new step up rules will allow plenty of damage to be done back to us. I think it will just be lots of noise until games are actually played.

[Aderyn]

also i am getting called cheesy every game i play (just for playing highelves) and get to listen to various jokes of how lame and gay highelves are, even tho i play against Darkelves and lizardmen using lists that would add up to 0-5comp in a tournament.

anyone else getting sick and tired of it? :/

about 8th ed... Unless they change the way speed of asuryan works (which i doubt) we are gonna be bashing around freely with greatweapons. It's kinda the Highelf special thing (since we dont have above str3 on averagetroop).

Nuff said. :>

[HERO]

I never found T3 5+ save Elves being cheesy.

I'm dreadfully afraid of Black Horror once Dark Elves start playing more into their Lore and understand that 11+ is remarkably easy to get off with a Lv.4 and no partials exist anymore.

[Tethlis]

I never found T3 5+ save Elves being cheesy.

I'm dreadfully afraid of Black Horror once Dark Elves start playing more into their Lore and understand that 11+ is remarkably easy to get off with a Lv.4 and no partials exist anymore.

The casting values for the lore will probably be increased, and Black Horror doesn't roll for partials now anyway.

[mike newman]

about 8th ed... Unless they change the way speed of asuryan works (which i doubt) we are gonna be bashing around freely with greatweapons. It's kinda the Highelf special thing (since we dont have above str3 on averagetroop).

Nuff said. :>

you've got that the wrong way round. if they leave it as it is we dont get re-rolls with GW. they need to change it to specifically say we do.

[HERO]

I never found T3 5+ save Elves being cheesy.

I'm dreadfully afraid of Black Horror once Dark Elves start playing more into their Lore and understand that 11+ is remarkably easy to get off with a Lv.4 and no partials exist anymore.

The casting values for the lore will probably be increased, and Black Horror doesn't roll for partials now anyway.

Yeah... I don't think so.

If you look at the Beast of Chaos cards.. their casting values didn't change.

[mike newman]

I never found T3 5+ save Elves being cheesy.

I'm dreadfully afraid of Black Horror once Dark Elves start playing more into their Lore and understand that 11+ is remarkably easy to get off with a Lv.4 and no partials exist anymore.

The casting values for the lore will probably be increased, and Black Horror doesn't roll for partials now anyway.

Yeah... I don't think so.

If you look at the Beast of Chaos cards.. their casting values didn't change.

yeah but that book was released a month ago. and the casting values where....a little high.....for 7th

[HERO]

Changing the prices would suggest a balance change.

I doubt that the erratas/FAQs are out to balance each and every book lore. That's NOT the GW way.

[Dracos]

I never found T3 5+ save Elves being cheesy.

Me neither.

But the S5 ASF reroll would be. For 12pts

Personally don't care since I'm looking to swap Empire for Asur anyway. Still I hope I'd feel a little off about fielding SM and WL that would eat Khorne Warriors with Halberds for breakfast . . . for a third the price.

[HERO]

I never found T3 5+ save Elves being cheesy.

Me neither.

But the S5 ASF reroll would be. For 12pts

Personally don't care since I'm looking to swap Empire for Asur anyway. Still I hope I'd feel a little off about fielding SM and WL that would eat Khorne Warriors with Halberds for breakfast . . . for a third the price.

12?

I assume you mean 15

[Dracos]

oops yeah that's what I said, wasn't it

Ok 3pts isnt insubstantial but I still hold Swordmasters with ASF and Rerolls is just nasty against even the toughest infantry. Your standard Warrior build is only going to have a 4+ save. Admitted his T4 is a saving grace but not enough against SM with the proposed set-up.

Strangely enough most other forums aren't seeing SM and WL getting the rerolls. Wishful thinking all around?

[HERO]

oops yeah that's what I said, wasn't it

Ok 3pts isnt insubstantial but I still hold Swordmasters with ASF and Rerolls is just nasty against even the toughest infantry. Your standard Warrior build is only going to have a 4+ save. Admitted his T4 is a saving grace but not enough against SM with the proposed set-up.

Strangely enough most other forums aren't seeing SM and WL getting the rerolls. Wishful thinking all around?

15 points for a T3 warrior with 5+.

Great damage potentially.. but expensive none the less.

A 3 point difference is 60 points for a unit of 20. That's pretty substantial when you factor in the fact the die to a soft breeze. That's why we need our magic now then ever.

[Dracos]

I agree with everything you said

[CrazyCarl]

I've had two opponents (playing VC and Daemons) complain about how good ASF is now. They seemed to agree with me when I gave the Pro-ASF working for SM/WL even when I presented the decent counter argument (that the SOA rule is using out-dated terminology). And every single time they complain I point at the little "3" sitting under the T column of my stat lines and tell them to cry more. Though funnily enough, today my horde of Sea Guard actually suppressed attacks from a horde of Ghouls. It was only like, 6, but still was pretty awesome.

[faile]

Spoke to the guy at warhammer world who was introducing the new rule book and got told that the general rule is that Army Books take precidence over the BRB if the rules don't match up, unless the erratas says otherwise. This was in regards to a Questing Knight and lance formation question on the rules for cavalry with great weapons (now +2 str which made me happy)
So from that i'd think that until we see an errata saying otherwise, do as our Army Book says.
Hope that helped

[Tethlis]

Yeah... I don't think so.

If you look at the Beast of Chaos cards.. their casting values didn't change.

Beasts of Chaos are the only armybook that's been released with 8th edition rules clearly in mind. They probably won't even receive an update/errata PDF, because the devs were largely aware of what 8th edition would contain when they made the new Beast book (and that includes an increase in casting value.) That's WHY the casting values there are so high; they knew Beast casters would be receiving anything from +1 to +5 to cast each of those spells, and took that into account when they formulated the Beast casting values.

[CrazyCarl]

GW has been working on 8th for a year if I remember what I read in the latest White Dwarf, so that should mean Skaven and Beastmen should have been being written possibly with the idea of some of the new rules, i.e. the dreaded 13th spell is a bit more realistic now. Maybe Warriors of Chaos too? I can't remember the timeline too well.

[Pskyrunner]

on warseer you guys can read that HE will receive ASF while using great weapon due to SoA rule.. has been confirmed by a few veteran guys there, who have read the FaQs too

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthrea ... 558&page=6

for those who dont believed in the rumors yet

[Ulanth]

you've got that the wrong way round. if they leave it as it is we dont get re-rolls with GW. they need to change it to specifically say we do.

actually we do. our Speed of Asuryan says we get always strike first regardless of weapon. and army book supercede brb. So even though we have great weapons we don't care and have always strike first.......maybe.....until it is faqed....

[Loremaster]

army book supercede brb. So even though we have great weapons we don't care and have always strike first

This is the way it is. I'll try to find the link but GW said the Armybook trumps the Rulebook.

[mike newman]

at the moment

yes we always have always strike first

having a great weapon doesnt take that away in effect "we always have ASF no matter what weapon we wield (ie a great weapon"

however we also have ASL

as we have both rules then we strike in I order.

having a great weapon doesnt overide asf, we still have the rule just dont get the benefit.

however untill the new faq comes out anything could happen!