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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:09 pm 
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Pros for the LSG are more shooting attacks per unit than your archers (if they're 10x3 they get 20 shots on the move and 25 stood still, while arranging them 5x6 is 10 on the move and 19 stood still - but in a better set up for Combat). And also that they a better defensive combat unit than Spearmen as they get a stand & shoot reaction.

Cons are what you already posted.

So I guess that the Spear/Archer combo is a more offensive look since you can strike at a greater range in support of a battle line that doesn't get affected by closing with the enemy as fast as possible. While the LSG are designed to absorb charges more effectively, and work better as anvils for our Special Unit hammers.

I think that the real decider is the LSG's superior unit killing potential (30 LSG vs. 10 Arch/30Spears). 19 shots + 21 attacks (in 5x6) when charged can do serious damage an enemy before they've even struck a blow. While with Arch/Spears I'd have to concentrate the fire of both Archer units to get the same. So I'd take the LSG.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:04 pm 
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been out for a while but 8th edition has slowly brought me back to wanting to play again. So i was wondering for those of you who have seen the book can we still make a flying invulnerable archmage. It seemed to me because you cannot target the eagle anymore that it actually made some sense to do it. Give the make the forlaiths robes and silverwand and then you have 45 points to give him what you desire. The new 4+ ward save (helps against miscasts/magic), loremasters cloak (2+ ward save against magic), or even the amulet of fire (immune to fire, metal, light damage spells, almost immune to death because its I based damage).

The advantage of the eagled archmage is that he can support where ever he is needed. Doesn't have to get into combat (big bonus considering stepping up), and miscasts become less devastating (unless you were in PG a s10 template can kill a lot of elves).

Of course this is all just hypothetical and I haven't seen the brb so I don't know if it would work.

Another helpful mage might be just a level 1 with tricksters pendant. Making the opponent roll twice on the miscast table can be devastating and if the average point limit does rise to 2500-3000 then it makes it even more worthwhile. Plus (and credit goes to hero for this) beast, and high (assuming you can switch for shield of saph) have great spells for a lvl 1.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:58 am 
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I re-read the construction rules and took notice of the statement that the army can have 3 of a kind (special) and 2 of a kind (rare). Now that's pretty clear.

I was hung up on the word duplicate, contained in the summary box for the percentage rules. I.E. if you were to state that one can take 1 duplicate rare and that logic dictates that one must have an original model before one can have a duplicate model, its clear that the overall limit is 2. Therefore stating that one can take 2 duplicates, and applying the same logic one "could" come to the conclusion that the limit might be 3.

So dropping the bolt thrower, the gem of courage and the two tiranoc chariots gains 280 points, which I will spend on two lion chariots (280 points) yielding the following first cut army:

Archmage, level 3 High Magic, General, seerstaff, dispel scroll x3. 315 points.
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon Armor, Great Weapon. 184 points.
Character total - 499 points
Lothern SeaGuard x 40 (formation 10x4) Full Command, Shields, Banner of Ellyrian. 560 points.
Core Total - 560 points.
Dragon Princes x5, Drakemaster, musician, 180 points.
Dragon Princes x5, Drakemaster, musician. 180 points.
Lion Chariot x2 , 280 points.
Total Special - 640 points.
Repeater Bolt Thrower x2. 200 points
Great Eagle x2. 100 points
Total Rare 300 points.
Total Army - 1999 points.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:58 am 
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Magic items are one per army, and you can't have more than one "category" of item per character.

So one Dispel Scroll per army is what I'm getting at RE: your list PapaElf.

And tiekwando2 RE: your list, Folariath's Robe is only for models on foot, so you can't put them on an Eagle.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:23 am 
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Also, you can only have one Arcane Item, so no Seerstaff and Dispel Scroll.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:32 am 
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Yikes, I've really got to get a copy of the new rules. Thanks, for the corrections guys.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:18 am 
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Eldareth wrote:
Also, you can only have one Arcane Item, so no Seerstaff and Dispel Scroll.

This is what will really hurt I think, the scroll costing you the Item.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:52 am 
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Archmage, level 4, silver wand, high magic 270
BSB, AoC, GW 143

20 LSG, shields, FC 285
20 LSG, shields, FC 285

14 Phoenix guard, FC, armour piercing banner (not sure of name?) 285
15 White lions, FC, lion standard 280
Lion chariot 140
5 Ellyrian reavers, bows and spears, musician 112

2 RBTs 200

Total 2000

A mage is necessary and this one is cheap enough yet can still be effective. High magic is still useful (curse and flames, especially against low T hordes) until the casting values change, in which case shadow seems to be the best bet.

Obviously a BSB is essential. He goes with the PG, which I think are an essential choice in the new edition. Armour piercing looks too good to pass up.

Sea guard seems to be the way to go. Two units offer more flexibility than a horde. I think a frontage of 10 in combat will only hurt elves more; minimise the attacks back by having them 5 wide.

White lions are in there unless their GW cancels out ASF. Not sure whether the lion standard is as useful and/or essential as it was; it can be dropped for flaming attacks

Lion chariot just got better due to S6 from the crew, regardless of whether they have ASF or not.

Ellyrian reavers are worth a go with the new rules for fast cav. Also, this is the only cavalry I’ve got here. I can’t see a unit of 10 SH or DP being efficient (230-300 points, plus if only one gets shot, they don’t negate ranks anyway).

RBTs are still useful, if slightly more vulnerable.

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:52 am 
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ok. so this is my first attempt at a high elf list then using the new rules set. (and it also bears in mind i DONT think we will get re-rolls on our GW, however i do think we will have the limits on special/rare lifted - as in WD)

Prince - white sword, armour of caledor, dawnstone (re-roll armour), potion of foolhardiness (plus 1 attack on charge and ItoP one use only)- 245 - 12.25%
Noble - bsb, dragon armour, halbred, reaver bow - 160
Mage - lvl 1, annulian crystal - 140
Mage - lvl 1, sigil of asuryan - 140 - 22%

18 seaguard - FC, banner of eternal flame (flaming attacks) - 269
18 seaguard - FC - 259 - 26.4%

18 phoenix guard - FC, banner of arcance protection - 325
5 shadow warriors - 80
5 shadow warriors - 80 - 24.25%

3 bolthrowers - 300 - 15%

1998

feedback?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:54 am 
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I'm using point costs off the top of my head so if they are off please just point out where.

LORDS
Prince 259 (Gen: Armours of Caledor, Vambraces of Defense, Amulet of Light (or possibly something in BRB), Halberd)
Archmage 280 (AM: 4+ WSv item, Silver Wand, Lore of Shadow)
=539

HEROES
Noble 186 (BSB: Gaurdian Phoenix, Helm of Fortune, DP setup)
=186

CORE
Spear Elves 297 (SE: 28, Lion Standard, FC)
Archers 154 (Ar: 14)
Archers 154 (Ar: 14)
=605

SPECIAL
Dragon Princes 315 (DP: 9, Banner of Elyrion, Muso, Std)
Phoenix Guard 330 (PG: 17, Baner of Sorcery, FC)
Tiranoc Chariots 170 (TC: 2)
=815

RARE
Great Eagle 100 (GE: 2)
=100

=2245

This is the 2250 list I plan to test out under the new rules. The idea is to have the Spear Elves and the Phoenix Guard hold the centre. I'm going to run the Spear Elves 7 wide with the logic that any horde block of High Elf core is redundant unless it's 50 strong as both LSG and SE can strike with the same number of ranks a normal horde could and maximize the number of attacks on 5 wide units though this does mean hordes will get more attacks back at me the PG and DP are there to counter charge. The Phoenix Guard I am running 6 wide with the Archmage in. The reason for this is that with the attacking in ranks rule the hits a bit harder and can therefore justify the wider front. The large unit of Dragon Princes is the heavy hitter in the army obviously and the reasoning behind the size if the unit is to cancel ranks and also just to hit really hard with the extra 5 attacks. The eagles are for redirection and warmachine hunting as can be expected and the chariots are there to play a flexible roll of either protecting the archers, counter charging, getting rid of flanking units, or suicide assassinations/getting rid of ranks. The Prince goes in the Spear Elves just to give them some hitting power and spread his leadership around. The BSB will go in the Dragon Princes just to add some combat resolution. Though I am very seriously considering switching their roles because I think I would much rather have re-rollable leadership 9 in my centre than just leadership 10 and with the Prince's extra killing potential (take Vambraces of Defense and Star Lance with DP setup) he will probably more than make up for the +1 CR bonus. The Archmage is really cool I think. Lore of Shadow is awesome especially being able to choose 5 spells and pick rather than re-roll any double you may roll and painful for horde armies especially because you can reduce a unit's initiative and cast Pit of Shades with a relatively low chance to roll double 6's.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:43 am 
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I finally got to read the rules properly, the Duplicate thing is quite clear:
'An army cannot contain more than 3 Special Choices of the same type and 2 Rare Choices of the same type'

so it has nothing to do with the word duplicate itself, its just the title of the section.
3 RBTs are illegal for high elves unless the Errata gives the rumored Elite Army rule.

And yet 4 RBTs is legal for Dark Elves as they are 2 for 1 choice,.... -_-
Though I'm sure they would all prefer 2 War Hydras first.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:30 am 
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What do you guys think is better, the ogre blade for s6 or Blade of seagold for ignore armour?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:36 am 
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Honestly that depends on the rest of your list, plus you can always add Potion of Strength with the ignore armor sword.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:58 pm 
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At this point, I would be giving phoenix guard the banner of Arcane protection, as it will give them a 2+ ward save against wounds caused by magic spells. Seems pretty solid IMHO. Also any character joining the unit gains +2 to their wardsave against spells.

Other good combos seem to be banner of ellyrion + character with the -1 to shoot at item. Anything to keep these guys alive. with TLoS I think this item is more needed.

I would often be putting the banner of sorcery on white lions now. Just my personal opinion, they don't need Lion standard as much anymore.

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