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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:23 pm 
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My dear Princes,

I've been gone for way too long. 7th Ed. really put me off and I took a long break from Warhammer Fantasy. That, and the fact that work and real life issues took priority over my wargaming. 8th Ed is coming out this summer and I'm really looking forward to dominating our enemies.

With this in mind, I would like to preform a tactical exercise that will not only be fun, but help weed out the possibilities of what will work in 8th Ed and what won't. Of course, no amount of theory will ever replace playtesting, but we can't do any of that until we have the actual rulebook in our hands.

Here is the exercise:
Construct a 2000 point army with the following restrictions:
25% Max Lords (includes mounts)
25% Max Heroes
25% Min Core
50% Max Special
25% Max Rare

The reason for this exercise is to explore our options with the rumors at hand and see if High Elves will remain competitive or not. How will this mandatory 25% min core effect such an elite army such as ours? How will lists play without the presence of the glorious Prince on Star Dragon and the monster that is Teclis?

All these things must be explored. Please, give as much information to your army list as possible. May this thread reflect upon our predictions when 8th Ed. finally reaches shelves!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:03 pm 
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Quote:
Lords:
500- Prince, DA, lance, Enchanted shield, Guardian Phoenix, Moon dragon
OR 492- Prince, DA, Shield, Star lance, Talisman of Loec, Helm of Fortune, GP, Sun dragon

Heroes:
153-BSB, AoC, GoC, GW
140- Mage, 2x Dispel Scroll

Core:
261- 24 Spears, command, warbanner
240- 2x 10 archers, banner (if you need a banner to capture objectives. Otherwise just more archers or spearmen)

Special:
300- 2x 5 DP

Rare: (assuming that there are no longer slot caps)
300- 3x RBT
100- 2x GE

Total: 1994

Just because I still want a dragon.
On the same topic, when I want two dragons:
Quote:
Lords: 25%
500- Prince, DA, lance, Enchanted shield, Guardian Phoenix, Moon dragon

Heroes: 21.75%
435- Dragon Mage, level 2, Silver wand, 2x scroll

Core: 25.5%
270- 25 Spears, command, warbanner
240- 2x 10 archers, banner (if you need a banner to capture objectives. Otherwise just more archers or spearmen)

Special: 12.75%
255- 5 Dragon Princes, banner, BoS, champion, AoL

Rare: 15%
300 3x RBT

Total: 2000

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Last edited by grantmepower on Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:06 pm 
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For example.. here's what a rough draft of a slightly magic heavy Elven army would look like with blocks of Infantry!

Quote:
1998

LORD:
Lv.4 Archmage (Silverwand, RoF, Scroll) = 330
Lv.2 Mage (Seerstaff, Scroll) = 185
Noble (DP, BSB, Battle Banner) = 218

CORE:
25x Spears (FC, War Banner) = 275
25x Spears (FC) = 250

SPECIAL:
20x Phoenix Guard (FC, BoSorcery) = 380
12x Sword Masters = 180
12x Sword Masters = 180


Nevermind the magic items and such.. it might be true that 8th Ed will bring more magic items so I'm not 100% sure what I want yet. The Battle Banner is in there simply because that thing alone has won me more games than I can remember. The Spears are 25% and form the anchors of my army with the Phoenix Guard as the middle. This is a fairly magic heavy army and has the Banner of Sorcery as well. The Sword Masters are on the flanks to counter-charge anything that runs into my Spears.

Simple alternations in this list will have the Noble BSB on the Horse/Halberd (DP = Dragon Prince) with the Radiant Gem of Hoeth. With those extra points, I'll probably throw in some Blade Lords.

The Sword Masters can be traded out for Dragon Princes w/ Banner of Ellyrion or maybe even 2x Lion Chariots over the SMs. No S7 instant death, but the Sword Masters give me a lot more killing power and bodies for the points. I might just go with Dragon Princes on one end and Sword Masters on another.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:22 am 
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Archmage, Lvl 3, Silver Wand - 235
Archmage, Lvl 3, Seerstaff - 255

Noble, BSB, Armour of Caledor, Great Weapon - 143

28 Lothern Sea Guard, Shields, Full Command - 389
10 Archers, Musician - 115

5 Dragon Princes, Banner of Sorcery - 220
Lion Chariot of Chrace - 140

3 RBT - 300
4 Great Eagles - 200

TOTAL - 1997

Feather them; stick them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:54 am 
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This is mainly as I'm a Classics nerd, and some units have been picked for their looks rather than effectiveness, but I think this should do pretty well for me:

Archmage - Level 4, Ring of Fury, Chariot - 385

Noble - Sword of Might, Heavy Armour, Golden Shield, Barded Steed - 155

20 Spearmen - Musician & Standard Bearer - 195
20 Spearmen - Musician & Standard Bearer - 195
20 Spearmen - Musician & Standard Bearer - 195

11 Silver Helms - No Shields, Musician - 239
5 Reavers - Musician - 92
5 Reavers - Musician - 92
10 White Lions - Standard Bearer - 162
10 White Lions - Standard Bearer - 162

1872 (128 left over).

I'm debating dropping the Level 3 for either a BSB or a Level 2 Mage, or alternatively getting 10 Archers, or boosting the Spearmen to 24-strong each, or getting an RBT...options are good to have at this stage when we don't know the rules. But some sort of firepower, be it more Magic or actual fletched weaponry, would be pretty handy to have in this force. But then so are Spear numbers...

The idea is that the Silver Helms take one flank, joined by the Noble - this will be a flanking force, in all senses. The 3 Spearelf units form a battle line, with either a second-line provided by the White Lions, or they guard the flanks of the outer-two Spear units. The Reavers form my opposite flank and are tasked with taking out enemy war machines FAST - Stone Throwers are a huge threat to our infantry these days. Archmage goes wherever it is needed, and depending on which Lore I end up taking (possibly supporting the main line with High Magic, or helping out the Reavers with a good dose of Fire).

Think the Battle of Cannae and you have a rough idea of how this army works. And it's mainly to prove people wrong who say decent-sized blocks of Infantry are too expensive in 8th :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:52 am 
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I think, every army needs now a BSB as he/she will let you re-roll all tests.
Dragons will be a good choice, as they hurt our foes a lot, as they stomp on them and dragons can breath fire in close combat.

Teclis will be still a good mage, even so he will ignore only the first total power miscast, but all other doubles do not force him (or any other mage with the "Book of Hoeth") to roll.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:11 pm 
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every "prince on dragon build" in this topic would be killed way too easily.. of course this is consequence of the 25%..

therefore u would do 2250 games like used to be (full kitted prince on moon dragon possible) or 2500 to have the highest lord builds available for every armybooks out there

well that my thoughts when i read trough


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:37 am 
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i remember when 1500 points was the standard game level.

2500 is quite possible to become the norm once people see the lord restrictions.

just a thought and i'm sure i'll get shot for it too!!! :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:05 pm 
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We have a club event to build an army for 8th and this is this list I have in mind so far:

AM, Jewel of Dusk, Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll, Skein

Lords: 325


Mage, Seer Staff
Noble, Great eagle, Reaver Bow, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour, Lance
Noble, BSB, Dragon Armour, Shield, Helm of Fortune, Barded Elven Steed, Sword of Might

Heros: 498


28 Spearmen, Standard
20 Sea Guard, Standard, Champion, Musician

Core:547


5 Dragon Princes, Standard, Banner of Sorcery
10 Sword Masters

Special: 380


2 Repeater Bolt throwers
1 Great Eagle

Rare: 250

Total: 2000


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:12 pm 
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I don't know about raising the basic game-size from 2000pts (well, here in the UK).

The talk from a variety of forums seems to be that a lot of people want to, to keep using their (whatever army) Lord on a Dragon.

I can understand that, they are often very nice (and expensive) models. But at the same time a part of me thinks that's really "cheap", and that people are too reliant on their monsters these days - and should revel in the chance to play without one - or against one; saving the beautiful models for larger, more scenario-driven games (such as a campaign or something).

Mind you, being a player with a penchant for Greek-style Phalanx play, a higher points limit means another block of Spearmen and some more Chariots to support them (or a way to play without taking a Lord character, being able to squeeze in a Noble, Mage and BSB into the Hero 25% allocation).


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:24 pm 
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Nemo wrote:
I don't know about raising the basic game-size from 2000pts (well, here in the UK).

The talk from a variety of forums seems to be that a lot of people want to, to keep using their (whatever army) Lord on a Dragon.

I can understand that, they are often very nice (and expensive) models. But at the same time a part of me thinks that's really "cheap", and that people are too reliant on their monsters these days - and should revel in the chance to play without one - or against one; saving the beautiful models for larger, more scenario-driven games (such as a campaign or something).

Mind you, being a player with a penchant for Greek-style Phalanx play, a higher points limit means another block of Spearmen and some more Chariots to support them (or a way to play without taking a Lord character, being able to squeeze in a Noble, Mage and BSB into the Hero 25% allocation).


ya ur totally right about what you say.. just talking about tournament-balance, high elves would still not be top tier if they dont use stardragon for example, maybe even with all the new 8th magic or maybe the combo of both is the winner HE players want to play to get to first places


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:06 am 
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25% Max Lords (includes mounts)
25% Max Heroes
25% Min Core
50% Max Special
25% Max Rare

First attempt I started with Rare.

Characters
Lord:Achmage Lvl 4 Silver wand, 1 Scroll
Heroes 14.4%
Lvl 2 Mage Seer Staff 165
Noble BSB GW, Armor Caledor 143

Core 51.6%
20 Spears full command. Lion Standard
2 x 13 Archers

Special

Rare 12.5%
RBT
RBT
Eagle

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:59 am 
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2000 points, just friendly to start with but I'll be keen to try it at tourneys if it works:

Prince: Dragon Armour, Hand Weapon, Bow of the Seafarer, Enchanted Shield - 224pts.

4 Bolt Throwers at half the price! + extra leadership/combat goodness.

Mage: Lvl. 2, Silver Wand, Seerstaff of Saphery, Hand Weapon. - 175

Tough decision but I'm favouring Lore of Life: Throne of Vines, Regrowth and The Dwellers Below over Lore of Shadow: Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma, Withering, Pit of Shades 'cos of the base power up (heal 1 per spell over switch my mages' places).

Mage: Lvl. 2, Annulian Crystal, Hand Weapon. - 175
High Magic - for Drain Magic.

Here I'm torn between having lvl. 2 vs. an extra Dragon Prince + tweaking my BSB's gear.

Noble BSB: Armour of Caledor, Great Weapon. - 143

Total Lords: 224
Total Heroes: 493
Total Characters: 717

Core:

19 Seaguard: Full Command, Shields - 272 (Prince goes here).
19 Spearmen: Sentinel, Musician - 186 (BSB Here).
10 Archers - 110 (Annulian Mage here)

Total Core: 568

Special:

14 White Lions: Full Command, Banner of Sorcery - 300 (Life Mage here).
12 Swordmasters: Bladelord with Talisman of Loec - 202
5 Dragon Princes: Full Command, Drakemaster has Helm of Fortune - 210

Total Special: 712

Army Total: 1997


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:20 pm 
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First attempt with a dragon @ 2000 points:

Prince, sun dragon, bow o/t seafarer, DA, enchanted shield, guardian phoenix 479
BSB, reaver bow, DA, GW, loec 174 (w/LSG)
Mage, lvl 2, wand, scroll 165

20 seaguard, FC, lion standard 310
20 seaguard, FC 285

15 phoenix guard, FC, armour piercing banner 300
Tiranoc chariot 85

2 RBTs 200

1998

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:37 pm 
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This something I cooked up. Sadly couldn't make a passable Mage knight list but I'm pretty pleased with this overall. Its probably bit core heavy to be really competitive but I really like the feel of it. Citizen soldiers marching of to defend their homeland. Magic items are used as described in the thread in general forum.

Celeador (Arch mage lvl 4) 360
Book of Ashur, sacred incense

Daelith (noble bsb) 168
Great weapon, DaoC, Pond stone

Emerald Company of Tor Achare (24 spearmen with FC) 241

Ruby Company of Tor Achare (16 Achers w/ Banner+Mus) 191

Saphire company of Tor Achare (24 sprearmen with FC) 261
Warbanner

15 Phoenix Guard (FC) 335
Standard blade (AP), Keeper of the flame with skeinsliver

Rangers of Elleador( 12 white lions with FC) 240
Banner of eternal flame, Guarding w/potion of toughness

Black Star Battery (2 RBT) 200

Total 1996

Percentages: Lords 18% Heroes: 8%, Core 35%, Special 29% Rare 10%


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:44 pm 
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Gonna try this at 2500:

2498

LORDS:
Teclis = 475

HEROES:
Noble (BSB, DP, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix) = 188
Caradryan = 175

CORE:
30x LSG (FC, Banner of Eternal Flame) = 425
20x Spears (FC) = 205

SPECIAL:
20x Phoenix Guard (FC, Banner of Sorcery) = 380
11x Dragon Princes (FC, Banner of Ellyrion) = 395
15x White Lions (FC) = 255

-----

I could also drop Teclis for a Lv.4 with Book of Ashur and have 145 left for a bigger White Lions unit, or 2x Eagles and 3 more White Lions in a 6x3 formation.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:26 am 
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Hi, I just spent most of Sunday afternoon at my local GW store reading the new rulebook. I too, like Hero, was very disapointed with the 7th Edition ruleset/armybook. Well after reading some 200+ pages of NEW rules, my conclusion is that 8th Edition is a new ballgame.

As an example. Under 8th edition rules one may measure distance before declaring charge, or before selecting a shooting or magic target. Magic is completely updated. Extra mages do NOT generate power dice. Ones power dice pool is now a 2D6 dice roll at the beginning of ones magic phase. Your power dice are the total of the dice roll, your opponents dispel pool is the higher value of the two dice. The mage's level only controls how many spells the mage knows. Any mage may attempt to cast any known spell with 1 to 6 dice. There are spells in the new magic lores with casting costs as high as 24. The total of a given casting attempt, is the total of the dice roll (1 - 6 dice) plus the level of the mage. Failure to cast a spell, ENDS that mage's turn. Irristable force is a BAD thing. It is considered a miscast where one gets the benefit of the spell followed by a roll on the miscast table. This is NOT a pretty table.

The new rules favor big infantry blocks, so without furter ado, here is my attempt at making a 2000 point army.

Archmage, level 3 High Magic, General, seerstaff, dispel scroll x3. 315 points.
Lore could change as one becomes more familiar with the new spell lists
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon Armor, Great Weapon. 184 points.
Character total - 499 points
Lothern SeaGuard x 40 (formation 10x4) Full Command, Shields, Banner of Ellyrian. 560 points.
In my opinion, the Seaguard are the 8th edition core unit of choice. For example this unit fights from all four ranks. first two is for spears, rank 3 is High Elf extra, rank 4 is for the new hoard rule (i.e. 10 models wide). It shoots thirty shots from this formation. The first two ranks, new rule allowing shooting in two ranks. Five models from each of the 3rd and 4th ranks, (new volley rule.) Core Total - 560 points.

Dragon Princes x5, Drakemaster, musician, gem of courage. 190 points.
Dragon Princes x5, Drakemaster, musician. 180 points.
Tiranoc Chariot x2 , 170 points.
Total Special - 540 points. New rules allow for three duplicate special choices under 3000 points.

Repeater Bolt Thrower x3. 300 points
Great Eagle x2. 100 points
Total Rare 400 points. New rules allow for two duplicate rare choices.

Total Army - 1999 points.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:40 am 
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Quote:
Total Rare 400 points. New rules allow for two duplicate rare choices.


You've got 3 Bolt Throwers that are not 2 for 1 choices like dark elf rbts.
Unless the elite army rumors are true you'll need to drop one.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:45 am 
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Silver wrote:
Quote:
Total Rare 400 points. New rules allow for two duplicate rare choices.


You've got 3 Bolt Throwers that are not 2 for 1 choices like dark elf rbts.
Unless the elite army rumors are true you'll need to drop one.


I'm reading allowing two duplicates as allowing two extras, are you sure it really means two total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:49 am 
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I don't understand what you mean by that. You're allowed up to 2 of the same rare and 3 of the same special. The previous slots of 6 specials and 4 rares are completely gone.
Gotta wait until next week to confirm it if High elves ignore these new restrictions.

This still means 2x Doom wheels or 2x Abominations or 2x War Hydras but at least it won't be 4x doom wheels or the like until 3000+

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:58 am 
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PapaElf wrote:
Silver wrote:
Quote:
Total Rare 400 points. New rules allow for two duplicate rare choices.


You've got 3 Bolt Throwers that are not 2 for 1 choices like dark elf rbts.
Unless the elite army rumors are true you'll need to drop one.


I'm reading allowing two duplicates as allowing two extras, are you sure it really means two total.


My first and only exposure to the new rules is what I read from the rulebook at my local GW store this afternoon. In the section on army construction at the back of the book it states that one may take 3 duplicate special selections, 6 if a grand army, i.e. 3000 points.

I also states that one may take 2 duplicate rare selections or 4 if a grand army.

I interpreted that to mean, I could have two extra bolt throwers. It dosn't mean that I'm necessarily correct.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:26 am 
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Well that's the first I hear of such an interpretation but considering how GWShop is at wording rules with clarity, we won't know the correct way to interpret it for a while, I think the white dwarf army list also has 3 bolt throwers in the list.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:40 am 
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If it helps a sample Asur army used 3 Bolt Throwers in a 2,500 point list

Looks like a High Elf composition exemption is on the way


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:16 am 
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are the new items part of the errata, or BRB?

regarding your blog, why would anybody take spears over LSG anymore? now that their shooting is fairly effective, theyre probably the 2nd best core unit in the game (tough time giving it to LSG over chaos warriors, though from point cost maybe) and spears just look ineffective now. We have to fill up a certain amount of points in core, so why would I spend it in a unit that can only do half as much as LSG can?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:16 am 
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PapaElf wrote:
Lothern SeaGuard x 40 (formation 10x4) Full Command, Shields, Banner of Ellyrian. 560 points.
In my opinion, the Seaguard are the 8th edition core unit of choice. For example this unit fights from all four ranks. first two is for spears, rank 3 is High Elf extra, rank 4 is for the new hoard rule (i.e. 10 models wide). It shoots thirty shots from this formation. The first two ranks, new rule allowing shooting in two ranks. Five models from each of the 3rd and 4th ranks, (new volley rule.) Core Total - 560 points.


I'm not sure horde is the way to go for our troops. Yes, we would get attacks from every model using this system, but I think it is inefficient. Two units of 5x4 would still generate 40 attacks (2nd ranks also attacks, 3rd rank spears, 4th rank citizen levy) and 32 shots, so we don't lose out by having two smaler units.

If I'm not mistaken ,we could have a horde 10x5 in which every model fights? 2nd ranks fights anyway, 3rd rank spears, 4th rank citizen levy, 5th rank horde? But thats at least 650 points.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:47 pm 
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Elite army rule is true, high elves can take as many of same rare/special as they want (within point restrictions)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:04 am 
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Papaelf its nice to see you comment on here again.

I`m not sure if you`ve read the terrain rules yet, but from what I`ve heard there is going to be alot more terrain, and with true line of sight there will be heavy penalties on missile troops. Therefore I`m not quite convinced the LSG are our best core troop. I think games are going to get into meaningful combats very quick, and so LSG wont have as many turns to shoot as they previously did. With these changes, template machines improving, ranked infantry becoming more prominent (thereby neutering the effectiveness of rbt), and our magic phase no longer being significantly stronger then anyone elses I believe we will struggle to win a ranged fight and have the enemy advance towards us. Everything points to High Elves becoming a full out aggressive army, our infantry blocks closing down on our opponents to limit ranged casualties. Therefore my core unit of choice to start is going to be the humble spear block, capable of fighting reasonably well and marching full speed with the elites toward the enemy to protect their flanks.

I could be wrong but that is how it looks to me so far. Playtesting will reveal...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:06 am 
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Keith wrote:
Elite army rule is true, high elves can take as many of same rare/special as they want (within point restrictions)

Really? How do you know?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:07 am 
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At this moment, assuming that all costs remain the same, I was thinking of dividing a quarter of my points amongst the LSG, inclusive upgrades; since they already have a missile weapon, I wouldn't feel compelled to commit them.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:28 pm 
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Hi,

as this is my first post I would like to thank you for all the ongoing discussions. They have been a great help coming back after taking a 10 year warhammer break.

Currently I am constructin a 3 k list. What I am trying to decide is whether 2X 30 LSG are the way to go. Pointwise you could get for the same amount 2 X 30 spears and 2 X 10 archers. That has imo several advantages:
1. 30 in range while shooting
2. More boots on the ground
3. More units for deployment phase
4. I do not have enough LSG models...

But I am not sure whether that is enough to bench the LSG


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