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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 9:10 am 
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High elves: weak, not tough, statistcly average and very expensive in points.
Good news.
They have the best rules, always strike first, three ranked attack are just for the core units rules and no army can equal the High elves in preciseness or manovrability. (no wonder goblins are scared of high elves, they are the only sensible ones.)
Anyway, this is all info you may know.
But what you may not know is this, if you value your men, each individual one as if they are the most fragile and preciuos thing, you will have less casulties. In fact many "pro" players play as if one elf dead, is one to many.

Combat.
elves in combat are quite good, they hold up well, with high leadership and quite good basic skills. However comfidence isnt something you should have if elves are in combat, because most armies will win in combat rez even against some of you elite troops.
Orcs and goblins, sheer brutality, strengths and toughness will kill you.
Chaos will slaughter you.
skaven sheer amount will over welm you.
Lizardmen will beat you with stegadons, poisened attacks and elite magic.
All undead will simply come back to life.
Ogres will squash you.
Dark elves sheer hatred (cheap troops) and creatues like the hydra will eventually get the better of you.
wood elves, well acuallly all they have is wooden swords, so go ahead woop their ass.

But i think you get my point. If your in combat to soon, the game will end very soon.

I guess your waiting for the good new. Well its a mixed bag. You may not be the most superior in fire power, however it will help. However Magic, now thats the killer teclis, mages even Mr. Grim they all will smash. If you have teclis, you will be superior in the magic phases and unless you vs dwarves or the emipre, you will win in long ranged fire. Corse in combat you will do satisfactory, so i believe its quite possible, if you are a good general to win.


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:44 pm 
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Teclis does not a good general make.

I think it is generally agreed upon that Teclis is one of the strongest (if not the strongest) special character in the game. Like everything, he is not an automatic win button. However, he does change the odds in your favour a lot.

Taking uber characters does make you a great general and doesn't always makes for good games

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:19 pm 
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But i think you get my point. If your in combat to soon, the game will end very soon.


Have you actually played high elves before? Because most the stuff you talk about is complete garbage.

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:38 pm 
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wamphyri101 wrote:
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But i think you get my point. If your in combat to soon, the game will end very soon.


Have you actually played high elves before? Because most the stuff you talk about is complete garbage.


Agreed.

What was even the point in this thread?

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:12 pm 
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They'd have a better armour save if HE's were in a nut shell. I'm all for the idea


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:20 pm 
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Pash wrote:
wamphyri101 wrote:
Have you actually played high elves before? Because most the stuff you talk about is complete garbage.


Agreed.

What was even the point in this thread?
wamphyri101

Spot on.

[quote="fabiankj wrote:
But i think you get my point. If your in combat to soon, the game will end very soon


Oh, by the way: HE need to be in and out combat fast. We're an army like a scalpel; use it quickly and with finesse, then it'll slice through everything (except DE unkillable Dreadlord :P ).
Use it as a club (yes you, former O&G generals! :) ) and it'll break.

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:38 pm 
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calmacil wrote:
They'd have a better armour save if HE's were in a nut shell. I'm all for the idea

Lol!

this made me laugh very hard...

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:43 pm 
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Most pointless thread 2010 goes to...*drumroll*..."high elves in a nut()shell". =D>

This feels like something GW would publish - it's all wrong but hilarous at the same time.


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:38 pm 
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Minsc wrote:
Most pointless thread 2010 goes to...*drumroll*..."high elves in a nut()shell".

This feels like something GW would publish - it's all wrong but hilarous at the same time.


The year is only a few (well) months old.

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 5:31 am 
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Still the most pointless. Awesome quotes by the way ;D

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 7:47 am 
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calmacil wrote:
They'd have a better armour save if HE's were in a nut shell. I'm all for the idea

dude thats an epic quote, hahahah i so agree


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:28 am 
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Ok lets take a crack at this (lolnutpun). I have the day off and I have nothing better to do, lets see how many things I can explain are wrong and why!

1. With great weapon combos HEs have strength 5 and above usually, HE nobles on foot with a great weapon are basically base strength 6. ASF counts out great weapons and so you can count anything with great weapons as base strength +2.

2. You're right, toughness 3 is not tough.

3. Our statistics are way above average, our weapon skill is sky high, initiative (although not relative) is high and leadership is the second highest in the whole game.

4. Expensive, kinda, but actually not really compared to like chaos warriros or something like that, I cant quote points so I wont, but we're about average on points (DE are just too cheap).

5. ASF is not the best rule, its an average rule that helps our combat. Three spear ranks is alright, but not the best. And Wood Elves beat us on both the prcise and movement game.

6. Sacrifice is often needed to win. If you play like that then you'll make a gunline, and against a balanced list you'll get shot, magiced and then run at with dragon princes, and you'll die. It doesnt matter if an elf dies, but WHERE he dies is important. If 10 spear elves die at the back line then i dont care. If 2 elves die from a bolt thrower that throws 100 points out the window and a chance to take out much higher priority targets.

7. Out of all the elves (excluding black guard super group) HEs can stay in combat the longest btw, we can easily have extended combats as long as the enemy doesnt break, i would gladly take round after round with swordmasters against piles of orcs or goblins, but the damn things just dont stay there.

HE do combat fantastically and while fragile in armour and toughness most of our combat untis (Swords are the best, but DPs and White Lions work too) will give peopel nightmares.

O&G: Stay out of the way of fanatics and you'll win most combats, just dont be silly with your placements. 7 swordmasters can either win or draw against a 20 strong unit of orcs.

Chaos: Daemons? Yeah probably, but out of all the armies HEs are the best equiped to deal with them. If you mean warriors then you can laugh at them while your swordmasters take out 2-3 knights on their charge, you'll lsoe the combat but those 3 knights cost more than 7 swords, or a unit of white lions with some static just bust and axe in thier faces.

Skaven: Its not the numbers that win skaven their games, and if it was then they'd be the easiest to drop out of everyone on this list. If you're getting beat by their numbers then you're doing something really wrong. Skaven toys are what win battles.

Lizards: Stegs are pretty good right now, but most of the time all you want to kill is the skink priest blowing knights up on the top anyway, but still dont underestimate the power of a charging steg. Poisen isnt too much of a problem really, just make sure your eagles dont get shot by skinks and you're pretty much ok, a small unti of DPs can clear up the field of skinks and while doing so will usually get into good flanking position.

Undead: I lvoe playing undead, i can keep killing and they dont run away AND they get back up! I love rolling that many dice, and its a downhill struggle for them anyway because few undead magic phases can both keep up their army and keep the rest of you at bay with damage magic. Just get in combat with them but dotn fall into traps.

Ogres: Bah, run at them and get within the 6" mark, they dont get impacts and you'll ruin thier day, shoot anything that is bigger than a gnoblar (because they have nearly no armour). You will i nfact squash ogres. Although physically an ogre can probably squash most things.

Dark Elves: Biggest threat is shooting and magic, black guard can be a problem but it will NEVER be the cheap spearmen that get the better of you.

Wood Elves: Tough game if they play right, because you cant catch them. Their swords are very much made of metal, ask their wardancers when they charge your swormdasters and dance for ASF ;p

High Elves dont have a rough deal, they will of course struggle against DEs, a good vamp player and Daemons, but thats because everyone does too. If you want a rough deal playing OGres, Brets or TK is a harder game.

Oh and as a side note if you want the best magic user you probably want to ask Kairos what he thinks of you calling Teclis a better mage than him ;p

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:47 am 
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WarpPhoenix wrote:


O&G: Stay out of the way of fanatics and you'll win most combats, just dont be silly with your placements. 7 swordmasters can either win or draw against a 20 strong unit of orcs.





I dont know about you but EVERY TIME my Swordmasters have come in contact with Night goblin block my unit breaks from combat and gets overuned.

(Orcs are the easy part goblins aint)


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:11 am 
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Really? Because you should be beating goblins every time to be honest. If you have a 7 wide swordmaster unit (which you should ALWAYS have) then you'll have 14 attacks. 9 hits from that and assuming they got nets you'll get 6 wounds, thus winning by one. If they screw up their nets then you're laughing all the way home. You'll have 6 wounds on average and they'll have 3 ranks, banner, outnumber for a total of 5. They shouldnt wound you at all because you should have made them charge you to be honest so spears shouldnt be a problem, and even if they got spears they're doing less than one wound a combat phase.

Maybe you just have really bad rolling with swordmasters :( . Personally I have hit and wounded all 14 attacks before and its not unknown for me to get 10 wounds of them on a regular basis, but thats just personal luck and on averages you should be doing fine anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:17 am 
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calmacil wrote:
They'd have a better armour save if HE's were in a nut shell. I'm all for the idea

Awesome quote, I'm so tempted to put that in my sig!

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:51 am 
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He didnt have nets and I acually had 8in the front row :P (not all could attack but for some reason I made itso) and made a total of 3wounds and he didnt have nets O_o happens every time :P


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:50 pm 
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Wicksi wrote:
He didnt have nets and I acually had 8in the front row :P (not all could attack but for some reason I made itso) and made a total of 3wounds and he didnt have nets O_o happens every time :P

That's very unlucky rolling. With a frontal attack 7 Sword Masters should butcher a unit of goblins, no matter what size unit. 14 attacks should easily take out his front rank.

You must have rolled alot of 1's. Have you ever tried the board game Axis & Allies, you'd win every game :D


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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 6:36 am 
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[quote="WarpPhoenix"]

Chaos: Daemons? Yeah probably, but out of all the armies HEs are the best equiped to deal with them. If you mean warriors then you can laugh at them while your swordmasters take out 2-3 knights on their charge, you'll lsoe the combat but those 3 knights cost more than 7 swords, or a unit of white lions with some static just bust and axe in thier faces.

ok thanx for your feed back i do like it.
however i think your high because chaos knights acually have the lowest armour save that any core or special unit has, i wish i cud giv it to u but i cant cuz its da rules. anyway i promise you youd b lucky to kill one..
how can u say high elves are good in combat, ws mean nothing in the game, s, t do, and that exackly wat we suck in, why do u thin warhammer creator gave high elves bow for bot spearmen and archers. Ok so spearmen dont need them, but that is an option and their is a reason. Ok so we rock in ld iadmit and i hav faired off pretty well in combat rez. However most armies will kill us, chosen chaos are staisticall almost the same as our nobles. black orcs r our sword master except with black armour. Fanatics are literally thebest hard hitting thing in the game. Lizard man litterally hav an unbeatble army. legal as well. 3 stegs one with the engine of gods, slann priest and a unit of skinks, this has never been beaten at the brisebane games workshop. You also speak about undead as if they are easy to kill, do u know zombies and skeletons can have double -1 of our spear elves. They can be brought back to life and staisticall they are maginificent. DE are just super cheap with xbows and black gaurds. dwarves beat us in long range and close. stubborn better strength and toughness.(i can give no statistics which is gay) equal weapon skill and kick ass runes which are cheap. Then wood elves you admitted they are good. skaaven rock in numbers and their toys as you said. Deamons, ohh god tey rock in combat, but you wouldnt argue that im sure. u said they were tough, how are they more tough then VC's? (just asking i really dont know?)

but anyway thanks for ur info plz post bac


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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 10:25 am 
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Well lets look at some maths, shall we?

7 swordmasters equals 14 attacks. Those 14 attacks hit on 3s (WS is really important here, we need to hit on 3s) and have a 66% chance of landing, rounding to 9 hits. Those 9 hits also wound on 3s so that goes up to 6 wounds. And now we impose a -2 save modifier and thus they are saving on 3s. Thus on average you should kill 2 Chaos knights with the 7 wide frontage. With our pretty high leadership we probably passed the fear check as well so we probably didnt run from the charge (see how all that stats suddenly work together?). Now the knights will probably kill 2-3 swordmasters back (including the horses) which brings the knights to winning, but because its a cheap 105 point unit of swordmasters you can accept their loss and hell they might even get lucky and win it instead, anything can happen when you only need 3s to hit and to wound. When those knights run around with 3 left you can then throw ANOTHER unit of 7 swordmasters at them, which should clean them up.

Also Empire knights (which are core) also have a 1+ armour save.

ALL of our units are desgned to charge or get charged except for the four units that have bows (archers, seaguard, reavers, shadow warriors). Swordmasters are feared because of a WS6, S5 statline. Chosen are expensive, and because of that they do really well in combat, they are the WARRIROS of chaos, they SHOULD have at least one unit that is better in combat generally than most, but they are harsly expensive and slow moving, walk around them.

Black orcs are nothing, low weapon skill and normal strength they'll drop like flies. heres some more maths with swormdasters but I'll just give you the results. 4 wounds on black orcs assuming they're using shields. That probably wont beat the units combat res of 5 (if that much is spent) but its going to keep you there for another turn if you have a BSB nearly (again, high leadership kicks in) and thus you'll kill some more black orcs next turn and the next turn, suddenly 105 points is the most well spent in the whole army!

Fanatics can be lured out, use eagles to force them out of units when you're far away and watch them shred their own units.

Lizardmen have the third best army out there in my opinion. If you really want to know how to beat Lizardmen that do THAT kind of thing then you only need to play daemons. Use a bloodthirster and skulltaker, there. Problem solved. But honestly you can beat it with HE too, you can take teclis to beast cowers them all game, you can take 4 bolt throwers and a bolt thrower character (bow of the seafearer) and try to take everything down or you can use small magic to plink wounds off them all game, or even spam the nubmer 1 spell from lore of metal to kill the guy on the engine, thus forcing the steg to charge something.

Undeads strength is overwhelming you in numbers. Only HEs, Warriors of Chaos, Daemons and a very tooled up DE unit can consistantly kill more undead models than an average magic phase can raise. If you really want to just kill any undead player you only need a 6x6 unit of swordmastesr with a standard of balance and a noble in the corner of the unit, what can beat that apart from several vampires? Even then vampires arnt known for having high armour saves, punish them and kill the vampires. I know a 6x6 units of swords is a crazy amount but it honestly will be give undead players a nightmare unless they avoid it, but have can they when its the only thing worth any points? ;p

DE are kind of viewed as cheaper HEs so I can concede that they are supposed to be better, but most DE players are comfortated by their army and expect everything to fall to their mightly bolts, punish their undeveloped mind.

Daemons, DE and Lizards are tougher than VC. I'll give you reasons why Deamons are tougher than VC. The way their combat break tests work, isntead of just taking off how many you lost by you test against your leadership, meaning if you beat them by 5 due to combat res and no kills, and they have leadership 9, and they roll a 4 they can get away with losing NONE. Every model has a ward save that cant be taken away, meaning a whole third of their dies less often than everyone else. Flamers are the best shooting unit currently in the game, Khorne hounds move faster than most armies cavalry (rival out own) but have 2 wounds, toughness 5 and 2 strength 5 attacks, that is an amazing statline and worthy of everyones respect. The whole army causes fear (like undead, but they have the killing power to add onto their combat res to actually win fights all the time.) Their characters are monster, both basic and special. ALl their items can never be taken away, same deal with thier standards. They have the biggest magic phase potential of all the armies and can get 8 powerdice EXTREMELY cheap with 2 untis of horrors and 2 hero level characters. Greater deamons are to be feared if you have no plan to deal with them, you can invest all those points consistantly beacuse you dont know when you're going to fight a greater deamon next, thus most people with an all comers list are taken back and broke by it. Plaguebearers are stupidly hard to kill, bloodletters are cheap, can be throw away but still have strength 5, WS 5 and killing blow. Horrors are just amazing because of the wizard thing they have going. I cant see how you CANT see how good daemons are?

ANd yes everyone, i was extremely bored.

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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 12:04 pm 
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never fear WP you entertained me with your mathhammers and logic.

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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 6:12 pm 
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fabiankj wrote:
WarpPhoenix wrote:

Chaos: Daemons? Yeah probably, but out of all the armies HEs are the best equiped to deal with them. If you mean warriors then you can laugh at them while your swordmasters take out 2-3 knights on their charge, you'll lsoe the combat but those 3 knights cost more than 7 swords, or a unit of white lions with some static just bust and axe in thier faces.

ok thanx for your feed back i do like it.
however i think your high because chaos knights acually have the lowest armour save that any core or special unit has, i wish i cud giv it to u but i cant cuz its da rules. anyway i promise you youd b lucky to kill one..
how can u say high elves are good in combat, ws mean nothing in the game, s, t do, and that exackly wat we suck in, why do u thin warhammer creator gave high elves bow for bot spearmen and archers. Ok so spearmen dont need them, but that is an option and their is a reason. Ok so we rock in ld iadmit and i hav faired off pretty well in combat rez. However most armies will kill us, chosen chaos are staisticall almost the same as our nobles. black orcs r our sword master except with black armour. Fanatics are literally thebest hard hitting thing in the game. Lizard man litterally hav an unbeatble army. legal as well. 3 stegs one with the engine of gods, slann priest and a unit of skinks, this has never been beaten at the brisebane games workshop. You also speak about undead as if they are easy to kill, do u know zombies and skeletons can have double -1 of our spear elves. They can be brought back to life and staisticall they are maginificent. DE are just super cheap with xbows and black gaurds. dwarves beat us in long range and close. stubborn better strength and toughness.(i can give no statistics which is gay) equal weapon skill and kick ass runes which are cheap. Then wood elves you admitted they are good. skaaven rock in numbers and their toys as you said. Deamons, ohh god tey rock in combat, but you wouldnt argue that im sure. u said they were tough, how are they more tough then VC's? (just asking i really dont know?)

but anyway thanks for ur info plz post bac


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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 7:57 pm 
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Well we all know logic, maths and averages go out the window in an actual game ;p

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:27 am 
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[quote="WarpPhoenix"]Well lets look at some maths, shall we?

7 swordmasters equals 14 attacks. Those 14 attacks hit on 3s (WS is really important here, we need to hit on 3s) and have a 66% chance of landing, rounding to 9 hits. Those 9 hits also wound on 3s so that goes up to 6 wounds. And now we impose a -2 save modifier and thus they are saving on 3s. Thus on average you should kill 2 Chaos knights with the 7 wide frontage. With our pretty high leadership we probably passed the fear check as well so we probably didnt run from the charge (see how all that stats suddenly work together?). Now the knights will probably kill 2-3 swordmasters back (including the horses) which brings the knights to winning, but because its a cheap 105 point unit of swordmasters you can accept their loss and hell they might even get lucky and win it instead, anything can happen when you only need 3s to hit and to wound. When those knights run around with 3 left you can then throw ANOTHER unit of 7 swordmasters at them, which should clean them up.

thanx again for your comment, but i must diagree, which i guess is good cuz this convo pretty sweet.
anyway, youll find that chaos knights can have a 0 +, no joke its possible. But going by what you said, 6 attacks wound, they have to take an armour save, 3+ , mathamatically 2 out of 5 die. that three, to inflict 7 attacks, 4+, benifit of the doubt, 4 make it and they wound on a 2+ soo all 4 mak that, no armour save. then the horses who would kill one more, that 5 so yeah wed lose combat.

and regarding VS's. whole army of zombies up front, then skeletons behind, two corpse carts behind that and a vampire, they all have ws 7 as we shoot down zombies they spwan um behind, and youll find we cant shoot down more than they respawn, especiall considering in another post i said HE's rock at long range and i got bagged, but even with this. I obviously think HE's are better than they acually are in long range but even i say no way can you shoot down more than they spawn, especially with a wing vamp hitting your main magic user and the unit, stopping hit drain magic for a few turns. then by the time yoy got him out of combat they have reached you, up front corpse carts and skeletons and zombies and gouls behind. the clamp of death.


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:59 am 
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fabiankj wrote:
thanx again for your comment, but i must diagree, which i guess is good cuz this convo pretty sweet.
anyway, youll find that chaos knights can have a 0 +, no joke its possible.


No joke, it's not!

Barded Steed - 5+ (5+)
Shield - 6+ (4+)
Chaos Armour - 4+ (1+)

To avoid any confusion, the first number is the armour save provided by the individual piece of equipment. The number in brackets is the overall armour save when combined with earlier items.

Thus we can see, from the Chaos Army Book, that Knights have a 1+ armour save, thus making White Phoenix right, and you wrong. Again.

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and regarding VS's. A whole army of zombies up front, then skeletons behind, two corpse carts behind that and a vampire. They all have Ws 7. As we shoot down zombies they swamp um behind, and you'll find we cant shoot down more than they re-spawn, especially considering in another post I said HE's rock at long range and I got bagged, but even with this. I obviously think HE's are better than they actually are in long range but even I say no way can you shoot down more than they spawn, especially with a wing vamp hitting your main magic user and the unit, stopping hit drain magic for a few turns. then by the time you got him out of combat they have reached you, up front corpse carts and skeletons and zombies and ghouls behind. the clamp of death.


I've had to correct your English, it's confusing me. Now to correct you.

Quote:
They all have Ws 7.


Nope, just the one unit at any time can have Ws 7 from the Helm.

Quote:
As we shoot down zombies they swamp um behind, and you'll find we cant shoot down more than they re-spawn, especially considering in another post I said HE's rock at long range and I got bagged


You're doing it wrong! High Elves do not win through shooting, and VC's are particularly adapt at dealing with shooting armies. Use shooting to take out small support units - like Black Knights, carts. Vargulfs ect, which cannot be raised back once they are all dead. The main blocks - there's no point, which is where our superior movement and combat comes in. Flanking and massed attacks against poor troops nullifies their static res, making them crumble much more easily. Certainly it's hard to do, but that's why VC's are a top tier army, and we are not.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:06 am 
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fabiankj wrote:
thanx again for your comment, but i must diagree, which i guess is good cuz this convo pretty sweet.
anyway, youll find that chaos knights can have a 0 +, no joke its possible. But going by what you said, 6 attacks wound, they have to take an armour save, 3+ , mathamatically 2 out of 5 die. that three, to inflict 7 attacks, 4+, benifit of the doubt, 4 make it and they wound on a 2+ soo all 4 mak that, no armour save. then the horses who would kill one more, that 5 so yeah wed lose combat.


Erm, Its about half past 2?

seriously, i have no idea what thats about

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 3:52 pm 
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all right people i am now watching this thread, keep it civilised or else.
fabiankj can you please use a spell checker as that sort of writing is making no sense to me at all, i can understand if english is not your first language but the use of a spell checker is still desired so that we can understand.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 5:05 pm 
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fabiankj wrote:
But what you may not know is this, if you value your men, each individual one as if they are the most fragile and precious thing, you will have less casulties. In fact many "pro" players play as if one elf dead is one too many.


Now i know for a fact that is not true. "Pro" players of any race play the game as you would a game of poker, with each move a calculated risk as to give yourself the optimum chance of the optimum reward. If this means sacrificng a certain unit in order to save something more important or to set up a certain charge (or a myriad of other circumstances) then so be it. This is how you win games, not by "valuing every individual as precious", that sounds like something out of a fantsy novel.

fabiankj wrote:
But i think you get my point. If your in combat to soon, the game will end very soon.


Erm, no.. For one against several races we are outshot (Darkelves, Some skaven, empire, dwarves, some woodelves) in which case you need to get to combat quickly, and then you also need to remember that High elves have one of the worst survivability:cost ratios of any army (second after woodelves i think), and that thus holding off on combat while we shoot and magic our opponent often results in the enemy's combat being weakened, but ours being weakened further (due to the fact it is easy to take apart high elf combat units with shooting)

fabiankj wrote:
how can you say that high elves are good in combat? ws means nothing in the game, s and t do and that is exackly what we suck in. Why do u think the warhammer creators gave high elves bows for both spearmen and archers (they didn't, they gave them to LOTHERN SEAGAURD and ARCHERS, we can take spearmen without bows). Ok so spearmen don't need them but that is an option and there is a reason. We do have pretty high ld i admit and i have faired off pretty well in combat res (really? the high cost of elven troops mean we are normally outnumbered and therefore down on static combat resolution). However most armies will kill us, chaos chosen are staistically almost the same as our nobles (except that nobles can take magic items and this is the main reason we take any, if they don't have magic items they are rarely seen on the battlefield, and chosen are really expensive). Black orcs are the equivalent of our sword master except with black armour (no they really aren't, ASF and ws6 means we butcher essentially the front rank, and if it does go to a second round, we have the advantage since they are then only s4). Fanatics are literally the best hard hitting thing in the game (Really? since when? something that random is never going to be the best thing in the game.). Lizard man litterally hav an unbeatble army. legal as well. 3 stegs one with the engine of gods, slann priest and a unit of skinks, this has never been beaten at the brisebane games workshop.(This is NOT an unbeatable army, it is certainly beatable. an army with multiple cannons will have a field day as that army has literally 40 models) also played well lots of armies can deal with engines, things like hellpit abominations and doomwheels run circles around them.) You also speak about undead as if they are easy to kill, do you know zombies and skeletons can have double -1 of our spear elves. They can be brought back to life and staistically they are maginificent. (yes skeletons and zombies come back, but they can also be raised over their starting size, which is why it is important to get into combat with them, where we kill them at a higher rate and so put a large pressure upon the vampire count's magic phase, forcing them to spend as many dice as possible in raising more skeletons ghouls andzombies and thus having less remaining with which to cast van hel's dance, which is much more of a frustration, wheras sitting off and attemptiing to shoot them is doomed to fail as they have many fast elements capable of interfering with out shooting capabilities (especially when you dd in the higher number of van hels being thrown if you don't try to close to combat)). DE are just super cheap with xbows and black guard (however their shooting is more point to point efficient than ours, and only a single one of their units will be able to contest effectively with us in close combat (the one with the banner of hag graef), the others can be killed reasonably efficiently by our combat units, which will not be true if we allow them multiple turns of unfettered shooting while we concentrate on shooting their combat units) Dwarves beat us in long range and close combat. Stubborn, better strength and toughness.(i can give no statistics which is annoying (we don't say gay as some people may find this offensive)equal weapon skill and kick ass runes which are cheap. (We can however defeat dwarves by obtaining those points whih are more easily available: warmachines and shooters) while not risking combats with the slow infantry (m3 is a joke), but sitting back and shooting them is doomed to failure). Then there are wood elves which you admitted are good (Woodelves are a good matchup for HE in combat, since only the treekin and treeman are any good at taking us on, the rest withers and crumbles in the face of ASF, whilst at range it becomes a game of dice and not much else.). Skaven have the advantage of numbers and their toys as you said (again, we beat and break skaven units as a matter of course, and by breaking those units we can put pressure on the skaven characters, the only easy points in a skaven army, with shooting we are reduced to panicking the general and hoping.). Daemons, are very good in combat, but you wouldnt argue that im sure. you said they were tough, how are they more tough then VC's? (just asking i really dont know?). (daemons have one of the two strongest books at the moment and despite the fact that HE are very good against daemons (due to our immunity to flaming), we still struggle. Flamers are one of the best units around at the moment and flesh hounds are up there too. Add to that the availability of ridiculously good magic, siren song, unbelieveably good characters and unkillable units, and you have a recipe for a really strong book. We are best, in my view, shooting any horrors that are there to give us an edge in the magic department and some relatively soft points, while isolating and annihlating one or two of the combat units and screening our army from any flamers with dragon armoured units)


Notice i've tidied the english up a little bit to make it readable.

EDIT: theres quite a bit of red in there, isn't there?

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:12 am 
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Prince_Asuryan wrote:
fabiankj wrote:
thanx again for your comment, but i must diagree, which i guess is good cuz this convo pretty sweet.
anyway, youll find that chaos knights can have a 0 +, no joke its possible.


No joke, it's not!

Barded Steed - 5+ (5+)
Shield - 6+ (4+)
Chaos Armour - 4+ (1+)

To avoid any confusion, the first number is the armour save provided by the individual piece of equipment. The number in brackets is the overall armour save when combined with earlier items.

Thus we can see, from the Chaos Army Book, that Knights have a 1+ armour save, thus making White Phoenix right, and you wrong. Again.

While I truly hate to agree with fabianjk, I just figured I'd point out that 0+ AS Chaos Knights are indeed possible, Chaos Warshrines have the option to allow Chaos Knights (or any other unit within 12") to roll on the "Eye of the Gods" table, and if the Chaos Knights roll a 6 on that table, they will indeed have a 0+ armour save.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:46 am 
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While I don't agree with fabianjk either, I think some of the snarky, smart-ass remarks don't really help things. If you disagree, just try to do it calmly and objectively without the attitude. :roll:

On topic, I think High Elves do very well in concentrated shooting. I often had success against even gunlines, provided I chose a small section of the board, usually on a flank, to dominate. Trying to shoot it out directly against cannons and crossbows is usually pretty futile, but indirectly I've had good success.

With the right terrain limiting what my opponent could shoot, I'd obliterate everything that could see me through magic, magic bows, seaguard, and a few RBT, (skeinsliver helps too) and then I'd simply stay where I was until the game ended. These units are very expensive and so have a small footprint, so I could deploy my whole army in hiding and get a reasonable first turn advantage.

After taking such a chunk of his gunline out, most could literally do nothing to me. All my small, expensive units were safely hidden by forests.
He had only a few combat units, and if he chose to advance after me he had to either walk into the killing zone of fire, or go through woods and other terrain with White Lions or a unit with the Ellyrion Banner who were waiting for it. If the advancing enemy unit wasn't something they could handle, I'd flee through the woods, trapping him and coming up in the rear after fleeing through my own units.

Not a sure-fire tactic of course, because its very terrain dependent, but its worked a few times for me.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:49 am 
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I recall Seredain using similar tactics, they make sense.

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