Enemy of the Month September: Daemons
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Author:  geoguswrek [ Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:46 am ]
Post subject:  Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Hello again. This months topic is the Daemons of chaos, yes, those sick hellspawns fighting only for the will of the gods.

I'll start things off by saying that if you are playing a bloodthirster in a tournament it is always worth trying some dragon princes into it, just to see if it has a flaming weapon. Also remember that DP can be used to screen your expensive stuff from flamers. and remember FLAMERS ARE GOOD IN COMBAT! don't orget this and put expensive things near them as you would other skirmishers, these skirmishers have 2 s5 attacks each.

Over to the floor.
EDIT: there is a tandem post on the subject running at the moment so i thought i'd link it here : http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=30491&start=0. If i miss a link that would be good in one of these, feel free to pm me about it :D

Author:  eudaimon [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

I play daemons in a similar way to how I play Lizardmen, divert, divert, divert, and shoot and magic the snot out of them. Use your dragon if you have one to mop up what it can mop up (most standard daemon unit apart from Nurgle) but play cagey. If you have a wall of nurgle, then your dragon's breath is your friend.

Author:  Baerion [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

I've never played the demons (I know I don't get out much) and I am really looking forward to hearing more tactics and tips. Please keep them coming.

Author:  geoguswrek [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

The biggest unit to look out for is fleshies. There is not a lot we can do to kill them and they are fast. Everything that can reliably beat them costs a lot more than they do. Flank charges with the battle banner or a stardragon seem the best bets. Flamets are also unbelievably hard to shift though we can use magic on them.

Author:  prelude_to_war [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Any unit of Bloodletters with a Herald will have hatred. Exploit this.

How you ask? Charge in the rear or flank with an eagle. The eagle will autobreak and the Bloodletters will have to pursue. Be cagey and have them pursue into a forest, or set them up for rear & flank charges. Or just buy yourself more time to shoot them.

Author:  geoguswrek [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

a unit of bloodletters with a herald is an easy point sink: exploit this: shoot it down a bit, then charge something hard in (swordmasters) and if the herald is unmounted attack him, if not attack his buddies, you should generate enough combat res to deal with whats left in shortish order. bloodletters are actually pretty poor.

Author:  Silver [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

If you have a Dragon, or anything big and fast...

Watch out for Daemonettes + Herald of Slaanesh tarpit.
Siren Song WILL draw you in, you will NOT be able to get out of it and you will be flanked shortly after.

Keeper of Secret with Siren Song will break your plans and make you cry ]:
Best way to exploit Siren Song is to have a second unit available to charge in - for exemple if you have a unit with the battle banner, and your dragon is Siren Song'd into the Keeper, charge out your battle banner into the keeper to win against it and pop it.

Play VERY carefully against possible Siren Songs.

Author:  geoguswrek [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

There isn't a lot you can do to the siren song kipper if it is played by someone who knows what he is doing, you have to bring it down by the tail of turn two or it is gonna cause unending havoc. (i know he can only use it once, but he doesn't HAVE to use it early).

Author:  Baerion [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

What is the Siren Song? It sounds like it makes you charge but how far does it work away, does it work on anything or are there any restrictions on what it can be used on?

Author:  SpellArcher [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

It's a bit like the Dwarf 'charge me or flee' rune with the advantage that it works on ITP enemy (and everything I think), which the rune doesn't. It can also be taken several times in the same army. Each Siren Song is one-use. Think it's Slaaneshi characters only.

Basically the enemy nominated has to charge the bearer or flee. I believe that you declare use and then measure but I don't have the book on me. If the target is found to be out of it's charge range then the SS is wasted as far as I recall.

Author:  Baerion [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Ok I play dwarves so that makes sense. The unit would have to be able to make a legitimate charge in order for it to work right? If I couldn't see the siren singer (lol) with my unit of cavalry to charge then my opponent couldn't use it on them.

Author:  SpellArcher [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

That's right. The target must be able to charge in the normal manner for Siren Song to take effect.

Author:  geoguswrek [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

however since slaanesh characters can normally move 20" a turn, the "you need to see me" seems a bit moot.

Author:  DarkTyrany22 [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

geoguswrek wrote:
however since slaanesh characters can normally move 20" a turn, the "you need to see me" seems a bit moot.

I think the bigger factor is that the Slaanesh character still has to be in their charge arc. Also they only move 20" if they're mounted.

Author:  geoguswrek [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Why would u not mount em?

Author:  Silver [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Cause a lone herald is dead even with siren song? o;

Herald of Slaanesh with Siren Song & Torment Blade will have 5 S4 AP ASF attacks since its on foot and within a Daemonette unit, you can tarpit any big nasty with ease.

Author:  orka [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

I haven't played against Daemons yet, but wouldn't shooting be the way to go? Most of their troops are T3 no-AS and bloody expensive.

Author:  geoguswrek [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Not really. The stuff to worry about are the skirmishing flamers, which outshoot our warmachines, the flesh hounds, 2 wounds each, s5 and fast moving, the beasts, with regen 4 wounds and t5, the characters with high toughness and good saves. The plaguebearers with regen and t4. the magic casting horrors and the flyers, none of which are prime shooting targets.

Author:  SpellArcher [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Keepers are M10 also.

Author:  Alathenar [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Plus in my one game against Daemons i realised they pass there 5+ Ward save a lot more than averages taught us. A friend of mine has also made this observation.

Author:  GobbladasSquig [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

That means you just have to score more hits and wounds than average yourself. ;)

My observation of the dangerous flesh hounds is that, with just toughness 4 and a 5+ ward, quantity of hits you can throw at them counts. 2x 10 archers, when deployed correctly opposite the hounds, plus an eagle to marchblock the hounds, rendered a unit of 7 pretty much useless. Also, with the same principles, swordmasters do great.

Author:  Alathenar [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Yea i'm just sour from when my 6 DP's charged 5 flesh hounds and did 4 wounds but he saved 3 of them then he killed like 2 or 3 of my DP's and i ran away and i'm like are u ****ing serious? My DRAGON PRINCES OF CALEDOR(yes these guys use'd to ride dragons) ran away from some hounds.....HOUNDS! And after that i thought to myself im not looking forward to this other combat where my other DP's charged some bloodcrushers...

Author:  Foxbat [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

To begin with, I have only played a few games (i.e. less than 8 games) against DoC and have had varying levels of success or rather, more accurately, levels of frustration dealing with them.

Right now my anti-Daemon strategy is to use the following:
- List must include units that cause Fear or are immune to it;
- List must contain magic defences and at least low-medium magic offense;
- Use march blocking wherever possible;
- Quasi-castle back line deployment with RBTs dispersed some distance from each other; and
- One or two Nobles designed as Torpedoes (i.e. Noble on Steed or Barded Steed with Sword of Might or Lance with ToL).

The general plan is to stall/wait for the DoC to cross the board and during that time cast Flames of the Phoenix on “target” unit(s) (i.e. core units with Heralds, but not Pink Horrors) while shooting Greater Daemons with RBTs. When the “target” unit closes to an appropriate distance I use the Torpedoes against the unit Heralds. For Pink Horrors I just run them down with whatever Cavalry I have (yes, even Reavers work). I have also found that a big block of Spears (20+ models) can do reasonably well against Bloodletters (especially if the Herald has been eliminated).

As HE can easily field flaming attack resistant units, I have not seen the Lord of Change. Generally, when dealing with a greater daemon I have found that a defensive HE Prince to be a good choice and in fact have found that the Golden Shield to be a big help here. Bottom line is that you need to get in Close Combat with it and hope you are able to combat res him to death.

Mechanics of the Torpedo: Place the Torpedo into a unit that is immune to fear (i.e. PG, Lion Standard unit, Standard of Balance unit) and wait until target unit (i.e. the ones hit by FoP and wounded the Herald) is within 14”. Launch the Torpedo and then move supporting unit forward to be as close as possible to receive the pursuit charge.

Author:  geoguswrek [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Sounds good but don;t try it against nurgle units without the talisman. And it all relies on bolters bringing down a Gd, which isn't incredibly likely.

Author:  Silver [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

When I played HE, I liked throwing a BSB with Dragon Armor at Flamers - mine didn't have battle banner though.
Anyway, even if you cause no wounds, since they cannot cause any wounds back, you tie the fight (+1 BSB vs +1 Outnumber ~fear~)

Such an awesome way to block Flamers from shooting your non-immune-to-fire troops.

Author:  geoguswrek [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

You won't break the flamets though. And there is always the possibility of support units

Author:  Silver [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

geoguswrek wrote:
You won't break the flamets though. And there is always the possibility of support units

Obviously, but the goal is to tie up a very deadly shooting unit, without comitting heavy resources.

Point for point, you tie up 5-6 flamers with a bsb you paid about the same points for - and you can easily help your bsb later and of course you have to watch out not to put him in a position where hounds can flank him and whatnot.

But its still awesome to tie up a unit for 6 turns! (: I'd win by 1 or 2 when I wounded and he didn't save.

Author:  Wena [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

I have played one to two very hard Daemon lists every single week for roughly the last 6 months. The guys I play have won GT's and most of the local tournaments over the last few years. They only play the hardest lists and it has been tough.

For a while I started to get real discouraged but some few months ago I made an out loud promise to never complain about daemons again and that I would play my best regardless of the lists. Result:

This last 'Ard Boyz tournament I ended up playing two daemon players (one was my friend I play every week!) My friend and I tied (he got 2nd place because of it instead of first) and the other daemon player gave up to me on the top of round 3 because he only had one unit left (Fleshhounds with two Khorne heralds) and the Nurgle Standard bearer (the rest of the unit was dead) and he had killed 5 of my archers and done two hit points to one of my lion chariots. (I got third place because of this victory - lost to Tomb Kings early because I never play them!)

This is what I have learned when facing daemons:

1. Make sure the units that can take out Bolt Throwers do not get to your bolt throwers! Furies and Fiends of Slaanesh - set up Dp's or Prince on dragon to make sure your bolters stay alive from these threats...

2. Use your eagle to keep the Flesh Hounds with Heralds march blocked and/or baiting charges from these units to keep them away until you can deal with the Greater Daemons you will have to deal with

3. Dragon Princes are great against Flamers - use the Banner of Elyrion to make the daemon player pay for using flamers

4. Pink Horror units need to be dropped to unit strength of 5 or less as soon as possible through shooting and/or magic to make them ineffective at magic – target one at a time
Note: A single lion chariot or unit of Dp’s will destroy one of these units of 10 with a frontal charge most of the time

5. Lure the Greater Daemons out into the open and single bolt them till they die – this is the daemon players bane – avoid charges to greater daemons with your dragon if possible (except for Kairos – he will eventually die after roughly 3 to 4 turns)

6. The best way to kill the Great Unclean One and Kairos is Pit of Shades – period – other than that Kairos 3+ ward makes him hard to kill and the Unclean one is a tarpit – avoid combat with him if possible

7. You will need Dispell Scroll(s) and dispel dice against most Daemon armies – they excel at magic and close combat

8. Daemon block troops do not break – plan on being in combat with any unit (except the smallest) for several turns – plan ahead to avoid getting flanked! The Nurgle block is the worse tar pit of them all – stay away…

9. They cause fear/terror! – try to make charges within General range – Lion standard and standard of balance help –

Sorry if this is too long – I can think of more but will stop here…

Author:  lathian [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Work in progress.

To start with, one should consider how to make an army. I don’t believe in tailoring, so I’ll only be providing a rough sketch to army composition.

In essence, with high elves there are 4 army types. There is the fast offensive, a balanced offensive, or a defensive list. An offensive list relies on fast elements and fast marching infantry to engage the enemy and decisively beat them in melee. Most standard builds are made around this style these days simply because the star dragon is so popular. The second kind relies on slower moving infantry, less cavalry and modest shooting. While they can remain static in defense, they must position to charge in the latter half of the game to gain any serious points. The last relies on a strong position to sit back, as well as ranged threats to draw in targets. If they don’t have enough firepower going out, they will fail to force the enemy into positions they want you to be in.

The fourth and final type is the perplexingly common poorly focused army. That one with 20 archers, 3 bolt throwers then a star dragon and dragon princes with maybe an elite infantry unit trying to keep up with the main clash. This army is designed to counteract its own strength, wanting to shoot as much with the powerful bolt throwers as well as the few archer units, and it also wants to get into melee as fast as possible. Due to the high elves specialist nature, high points cost and the draconic point sink, this is typically only passable due to the inability of some generals to deal with the star dragon.

A high offense army should contain only enough shooting to reduce a unit of 5 flanking fast cavalry down to 2. Typically, a bolt thrower and a unit of shadow warriors will do. You should not send your expensive hammer units chasing down fast cav, though a chariot, if one is included, can be decent in this role. There should be 2 small units (though stronger than 10 strong) of spear elves moving rapidly to either pin elements in place for short periods of time while your cavalry, dragon and chariot mow through the enemy, or to eliminate threats to your flanks. This army should have 3 eagles and a bolt thrower, using the eagles to harry shooters. Even if the eagle only holds one round in melee against that dwarf cannon crew, it did its job, preventing it from firing at your dragon. If it dies to a hail of Empire bullet spam, it prevented your knights from getting chewed up. If it gets run over by a unit of chaos knights, but gets them in a good position for you, it did its job.

A medium offense army should be worried about positioning, presenting enough fire to weaken hard elements (monsters, heavy cavalry) and seriously diminish enemy shooting. Lothern seaguard are the ideal for this purpose, taken in two fairly beefy units. They can severely injure monsters and can decimate shooters posted on hills while remaining a viable part of the strategy past the mid game, providing the same benefits to the army as the spear elves above. This army should not feature longbows, as they provide no late game benefit, and give away easier points than the seaguard in ranged duels or against fast elements. The elements must also be supported with various high strength, high power units such as a flanking unit of dragon princes with the banner of Ellyrion, swordmasters or white lions. Chariots are less desireable as this army presents fewer cannon targets making them essentially tinder, though they can be effective when facing armies without strength 7. This army needs to delay the enemy a little through use of great eagles. A 2/2 rare mix is pretty much the ideal.

The last desirable kind is the defensive list. Ideally, this list will have 20-30 archers, some anchoring elite units (phoenix guard and white lions are ideal) and will likely focus on Teclis. 3 bolt throwers and an eagle are the ideal mix for this one. It’s also the only army that I’d find shadow warriors relevant. Chariots in this army can be held behind terrain, because unlike the other two lists, you likely won’t leave your half of the board.

Now when deploying against daemons, you need to consider your style of army. If you took a dragon with the princes, you’ll be looking to hit his heavy support elements (daemons are the case where support doesn’t mean cheap, and certainly doesn’t mean a waste of time.) and then envelope his slower moving elements.

When using an offensive army, I like to position around a few turns, since he can’t really effectively retaliate with shooting. Magic should be nearly ineffectual due to high leadership, unrealistically high cost of getting a good nurgle magic offense, or the fact that you’re ridiculously mean to a tzeentch army, as at least 2/3 of your points should be immune to fire, and the rest should be further back. As such, the dragon should be dancing around flaming units for a turn or two. When against Slaanesh, keep him back a bit more, such that both he and a unit of dragon princes have the same field of vision most of the time. If the dragon is forced to charge, so do your dragon princes.

A trick I like to use vs. Slaanesh is to have my dragon princes pointed towards the section of the board I want to take out, say, that section has a unit of flamers, and I need to take them out. I move my unit of princes such that they can readily see the flamers, and then I move and eagle to block my charge arc against the Slaanesh portion of his army, keeping my eagle’s eyes averted as well. This prevents Siren song from pulling my units when I don’t want them to be pulled, or it forces him to move his fast elements with the siren song into a position less central to his army as a whole (which in turn means I don’t have to worry as much about getting flanked) Other than this, the highly offensive mobile army should basically move in quickly destroying fast support, then moving in to kill the main units via mass charges.

The big obstacle I find in these games is the greater daemon. Whether my star dragon prince kills it, or it kills my star dragon is basically a crap shoot. I can usually eke out a bit of an advantage by throwing a suicide unit at it to knock off a wound or two, but other than that, it may result in them in a deadlock and our armies squared off otherwise. Alternatively, they ignore each other and you both lose gobs of troops to the monsters.

The middle style army relies on its lothern seaguard and bolt throwers to take down the big nasty in a couple turns. You likely won’t actually kill it in two, but you will force it into a combat it can’t win, or will prevent it from popping out until the game’s already mostly over. Basically, focus fire on the big bad, and if you’ve shaved off 4 wounds over 2 rounds of shooting/magic, he won’t be able to frontally charge any of your infantry units (because this list cannot have “soft” targets like archers or reavers.) By the third round, you’ll either be dealing with an injured, rushed greater daemon in melee, which will likely die of attrition if you can keep his supporting elements from assisting it meaning you should advance your army, or you’ll want to hang back and shoot one more round. This army should have medium-high magic, which is generally considered sub-par. I use2 level 2s, Eltharion and a BSB with the radiant gem of hoeth. I put the mages into elite infantry and Eltharion and the BSB into my sea guard, which makes every unit a significant ranged and melee threat, though of course, my mages bail before they get into melee vs. daemons because they’re unlikely to get sniped outside of units.

In this army, dragon princes with the banner of ellyrion are basically essential, as is a battle standard bearer. The dragon princes in the difficult terrain are nearly impossible to root out for a daemon army (what with their fire immunity) and they can provide devastating bullshit flanks ™. This is the ideal for eliminating hound units. Even without a commander this unit will plow straight through a unit of hounds, even if they only kill one with 9 attacks. (which is the average)

Infantry should advance slowly, always moving for a better position, not just to get closer. My buddy commented that the most infuriating thing is that m6y line is never straight, but frankly Hannibal’s line wasn’t straight at Cannae either, so nyah nyah. Eagles should be put in front of enemy units at funny angles, forcing them to either present a flank to their forward units, or walk slowly up to your lines. This is doubly important in that it stops you from having to charge units with the siren song.

Your units should be able to go toe to toe with the daemons in melee, holding out long enough to grind them down to nothing. Remember, you have ASF, which means their fragile troops go down just as hard as your fragile troops, but you get to do it first. The only real problem for that sort of thing is a nurgle heavy army, but I generally only see 1-2 blocks of that tomfoolery, which gets into melee a bit later than anything else. The point of them seems to be denying you their points, and to hold up your big crucial unit, but this style of army shouldn’t have one. All you really need to do is insure you have a unit that’s immune to fear up against them, or that you whittle them down with magic enough to outnumber them. If I see big blocks, I sometimes take lore of fire to try and spam their numbers down with fireballs.

Author:  Bel-Hathe [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Some interesting food for thought there Lathian, thanks.

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