Enemy of the Month September: Daemons
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Author:  lathian [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons


OK, defensive armies should focus their game around concentrated fire, and as such must be careful when choosing targets. Mostly, fire should be concentrated towards hard units that can be diminished in efficacy (knights, mostly), while large ones that cannot (monsters, massive infantry blocks) should be dealt with via bolt throwers and magic respectively. This is because super heavy cav costs more than twice what most super heavy infantry cost, hit harder and will be at your lines a round or two sooner. Even if it halves your kills, the kills mean more. When giant monsters are your primary threat, massed bowfire can also contribute to their demise. I like to fire my bolt throwers first, so my archers can polish off that last wound if the monster has any.

A note of those fast, flighty buggers that zip around to hunt your war machines, you only really need to pick them down to 2, which usually translates to 3 kills. Use magic for this when possible, but since your archer line can withstand a charge from these light units, you don't need to worry about them too much. Of course, this assumes your war machines are either in terrain, have a hero (which I'll talk about later) or have something to get in the way, like shadow warriors. This generally means you can wait a turn before they turn into a priority. In the case of daemons, this of course means furies. I find at 2, I have better than even chances of my war machine crews winning that crucial first combat against them. Of course, reducing them to 1 is preferable, but if they are down to 2, and you have bigger fish to fry (which facing chaos, you will) then fire at the other target.

When discussing flesh hounds, blood crushers, other giant deadly uber units, people erroneously prioritize them as a target to be dealt with at range. I find the better option is to use overwhelming force agains their flank in melee. This has two benefits. It locks them in a combat that prevents them from bringing many attacks to bear, lets you win combats via combat resolution. A gutsier move I've used is counter charging them when they've been locked in place. If I get say, my white lions with the lion standard into combat with flesh hounds on my left flank, I'll have a pair of chariots with them, who will counter charge from the front or sides and try to crush them via overwhelming wounds. On the other side, it might be my other specials, a chariot, some phoenix guard and the dragon princes with the banner of ellyrion. If they ran their hounds down the center, I absolutely must use my eagle to draw them to the flanks, or I may even sacrafice an archer unit to redirect them to the sides, though that is a last chance. Other times, I'll retreat my center and have my chariots and princes pounce on them from the flanks, redirection their flank forces away from the battle in general.

When playing defensive against armies with little shooting, I like to put my melee heroes into bolt thrower units for a few rounds. (Generally, it's Archmage, mage, commander, commander.) For the first turns, it prevents my bolt throwers from getting over run by fast zippy bastards. After those things have lost their opportunity to prevent my shooting from taking its toll, I simply move them to either flank infantry unit, which helps them hold that one round before I countercharge everything. By then, it doesn't matter so much if my bolt throwers are down because the big bad monster will either be dead, or will be in melee.

Once I've started the countercharge part of the strategy, I generally try to turn their flanks in, because my flanks have my hard hitters, while the center only has shooting. Generally a mix of archers and some small units of seaguard to prevent medium units from stomping through my middle too fast.

Specific units

The star dragon is the lazy man's solution to a lot of our problems. It's powerful, and it tends to get leaned on unecessarily. A strong general (conceit on my part) can do more with the 350 points in infantry than they can with the stard dragon. People assume it's needed to deal with the real big bads in daemonic armies, but the truth is, giant fucking monster vs. giant fucking monster is a crap shoot when they're even, and a retarded arms race escalation when they aren't.

While I admit, we definitely can win with the bastard, it's hardly the only way, nor the best way. It's the penultimate of the hammer. It is a crushing tool that swipes in from whatever angle it pleazes to wreck things, but the cost at which is does so does not always get paid back. Nor do inordinately fancy tactics make it a better tool. The faster it hits melee against something terrifying, the more value you're getting from it, sans walking into traps. Of course, walking into traps is exactly what chaos players will try to force your dragon to do when facing some slaanesh units.

You can cover for that weakness (Ie, it's a high priority siren song target) by moving your dragon in tandem with a unit of dragon princes who can counter the counter charge that you got countered with when you took the sirens song. For this purpose, you may want to keep him nearer the BSB than you normally would.

Teclis is a decent choice against most anything, and works well enough against expensive, relatively fragile pieces like chaos, but I've not used him all that often against daemons. I find most of my chaos opponents however have very few dispel dice. This reduces Teclis' utility when compared to a standard archmage, or my typical Eltharion list. The exception is Tzeentch heavy lists, but I find those are best dealt with by thrusting the dragon princes and heroes forward with reckless abandon while sniping his units down to more manageable sizes.

When using Teclis, I almost invariably pick high or shadow. The movement spells are the ones that absolutely must go off, and the high magic school does fairly well against daemons when used at the right time. Particularly drain magic, wrecking horrors.

A foot prince is a rather sub par choice under most circumstances, unless you have a shadow wizard around him. A prince in dragon armour on foot suddenly flying into that unit of flamers can really wreck a chaos opponents day. I use them most commonly with the bow of the seafarer, plonk him in my swordmasters, and completely demolish the daemon prince with shooting. He makes a good leadership base when I'm moving forward slowly, giving that unit something to do while moving up slowly.

Archmages are about the same vs. daemons as Teclis from my experience. I try and move my units around with magic, getting flank charges, blowing apart small flying units, or whatever.

Commanders on foot are far more common for me than princes. I typically take one with the full armour kit, and great weapon, the battle standard and the radiant gem of hoeth, though of course other options are viable. A commander in a small unit of swordmasters is nearly redundant, but in a unit of spear elves, lions or phoenix guard, his additional high strength attacks can really swing the tide.

Battle standard bearers have been fairly essential to my success. My units are either immune to fear, fear causing, disposable, shock troops or bulky. Other types of units are pretty much a liability vs. daemons. You'll see me run three elite infantry units rather often. Phoenix guard with the banner of sorcery, lions with the lion standard and swordmasters with the standard of balance. My core of seaguard are generally bulky enough to avoid autobreaking. Due to the current prevalence of fear causers, I actually use this standard set up all the time. These re-rolls are less essential when taking an offense heavy list, where you should be pressing through, and routing then regrouping lets you make another push in the late game if necessary. You can break, you just need enough scary melee units to keep the pressure on anyway.

Level 2 mages, due to my focus on mid level movement and low level missiles work just like archmages, but smaller.

Archers are a liability in my lists. I don't take them because they don't contribute much, and they are an easy victim if my opponent is looking for some easy points.

Spear elves are an occassional choice when I playing all out offensive. They do well against support elements at 15 strong, and can beat average units/hold up good units at 28. For their cost, they don't do as much as I'd want them to at either level, but a pair of 15s do well as units pressuring the flanks when going for balls out attacks.

Sea guard are expensive for what they do, but they can do it well. They are for destroying monsters with mass volleys, and for taking out hills, then getting charged by the enemy's countercharge forces, and either holding them up or winning. I even use them to press the final attack against the enemy once their choicest targets are gone. Playing them agressively in the last 2 turns has consistently paid off. It would have with spears as well, but they would not have contributed in the same way in the first through third rounds of combat.

Silver helms are a joke.

Dragon princes are best taken in units of 6. Against daemons, you can manage 7 across since they also prefer wide frontages. I find I have difficulty setting up charges with the larger units though. My favourite kit for these guys is the banner of ellyrion, a champion, standard and musician. When I have a secondary unit, they have the war banner, and I try to point both them and the dragon at the same unit, which is pretty much boned.

Swordmasters do well against daemons, who lack a lot of shooting. You need magic defense when you take them, and high magic becomes much more viable, due to the shield of saphery and due to drain magic. They can turn anything short of crushers and plaguebearers into mush. Even the feared bloodhounds have consistently been cut down by my swordmasters. units of 14, 7 across is ideal against daemons. They do need some immunity to fear from some source, as they can lose combats. It should be noted that even though my unit has accounted for a unit of daemonnettes, a bloodthirster, a unit of fleshounds and a unit of bloodletters in one battle, they are almost always depleted down to 1 or 2 models. They even lost most rounds of combat. But once the enemy units were ground down that first turn, the second turn usually pulps what's left.

White lions are a bit of an odd choice. They have special equipment that isn't likely to come up, due to a lack of shooting, lack the multitudinous attacks needed to fend off the melee daemons, and they have little to no combat protection. Despite all this, their stick-to-iteveness is a resounding plus in their favour. I'd let them anchor my flank any day, if you catch my meaning. They do however need a means to ignore fear. Even more so than swordmasters. Once they do, pick a unit or units, move them towards it, and set up counter charges. Against experience opponents, they make an excellent delay unit, and an experienced opponent won't want to step into the trap of charging them and getting counter charged, and may instead try to move around them. Of course, you need shooting or magic to capitolize on this, as well has have a countercharge unit ready.

Phoenix guard give me mixed signals. They are bloody hard to kill, but have little offense themselves. They make the worst character bunker because they don't kill off as many enemies as the other infantry units (which would reduce attacks on your character) and enemyies don't like attacking them because they don't generate much combat resolution. When I use them, I stick the general in there, because it gives him immunity to fear, he gives them some much needed killing power, and they can take enough of a pounding to safely get my general through the battle without running from unit to unit.

Shadow warriors are too costly for what they do, but in some instances when I can't take more eagles due to a pressing need for bolt throwers, I take a single unit to march block. I even charge the flanks of some tougher units from time to time. With their high weapon skill, hatred and the flank, they can actually beat units in this manner, so long as it's fast cav or something. I actually beat a unit of mounted daemonnettes that way, though don't expect this opportunity to happen often. Just know they are sometimes overly underestimated, which can work to their advantage.

The tiranoc chariot is my chariot of choice. With its higher move speed, it's like a one shot missile, used in conjunction with an elite infantry unit, or charging with the dragon princes, these things can add a couple crucial pips of combat resolution needed to break the back of a small elite unit, like flesh hounds.

The lion chariot is similar in nature, and vs. daemons is a superior choice, due to immunity to fear, and to superior staying power. I don't take them because those are not usually required traits in my chariots.

Ellyrion reavers are too expensive and take too valuable a slot to generally consider. When I do use them, I use them to get around to the enemy's flanks, charging them in solo hoping to win via combat resolution. It's a cost effective yet risky way to eliminate large, weak blocks.

Eagles are crucial to the success of diversion forces. I also put them facing my lines blocking my charges to stop the siren song from working.

Bolt throwers are basically your monster slayer. Work on the biggest targets first, then the fast cavalry if they took any, then flyers. After that, whatever he presents as a target.

Author:  SpellArcher [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

First-up agree with Bel-Hathe, this is great stuff Lathian, keep it up! :)

Agree with your use of Archers to finish stuff off. I've noticed good players doing this and it's working for me too. Controversial views on the Star Dragon! Personally, I fancy Standard of Balance on the Lions and Lion Std on the Swordmaters. With Balance, Lions don't need Ld9, just the BSB's re-roll. SM's still need the Ld9 in case they lose a combat IMHO and this covers the Panic tests.

Author:  lathian [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Ah, the standard of balance is from habit, but doesn't necessarily work better on daemons. It's because I generally use my swordmasters vs. frenzied units. Frenzy is generally on lower toughness/low armour units, which swordmasters mow through really easily. To compare, white lions are more for nutting heavy cavalry, which are less often frenzied. Of course, chaos knights have that, but they don't cause fear anyway. Still prefer hitting them in the flank with heavy cavalry, because my infantry doesn't fancy their odds against them front to front.

My favourite strategy

I use the middle approach. My army consists of 7 levels of magic (Eltharion the grim, 2 level 2 mages, 1 BSB with the radiant gem) 2 large units of seaguard, and mix of units of lions, swordmasters, phoenix guard and dragon princes. I also take 2 eagles and 2 bolt throwers. All you need to know for these is you need a mix of range in every unit (magic or shooting) and you need to have units that can be used agressively.

I approach slowly, moving forward 5 per turn, firing mass bow fire at large targets, or units on hills. I have 42 bows in my army, and sometimes 5 shadow warriors. Against a large target, I can manage hits on 5 round one. 14 hits, 2 and a bit wounds, and against many large targets, decent odds of one getting through saves, hydras excepted. The low saves on chaos large targets makes this especially useful. The paired bolt throwers as well can knock a couple wounds off the enemy.

My magic phase is focused at taking down support units that are not khornate. Fast things, things that are flammable, things that use fire... I generally try to blow up flamers with fire for the irony, though that's not generally the ideal.

Later in the game, I focus magic towards movement spells, moving to the flank, then flanking in the same round.

Once I've moved up 10 inches two rounds in, I stand still, and move my line into a wave sort of formation. Keeping your units at angles will open up their flanks when they charge in, and disrupt your own charge arcs. Since you don't want to get drawn in, breaking up your battle line, you'll not want to charge in on turn 3. Shoot one more round, magic them one more round, move your mages out of the front lines, and let them charge, getting stand and shoot and full ranks on your main line, and force him to position as you want against your elite units.

After the inevitable clash, I move my dragon princes through the flank, supported by magic. Since the enemy is in melee, I don't want to spend my casting dice on my offense spells, because everything worth worrying about will generally be in melee. Of course, I toss magic missiles against flamers at this point in the game if my dragon princes are tied up.

So long as I hold up one round (which is why the BSB is so important,) the battle invariably starts swinging my way.

This is because of the typical manner in which daemons come. Usually, scary units come in one rank, because when you have ranked bloodcrushers, you're a moron. Flesh hounds also don't work when ranked. As such, that first round, you ASF and kill maybe one of them, and take horrendous losses. (Against hounds, I generally kill 2, since one usually was wounded from stand and shoot anyway, or they hit my elites.) This means he gets 4 attackers against me, killing a decent swathe. Round two, my deeper formation (either 2 ranks of elites or many ranks of seaguard) get pretty much exactly the same number of kills. The daemons are now down to 2-3 flesh hounds, and do a little damage. If combat resolution doesn't nuke the rest of them, round three, I should be able to finish them off. The exception is my lions and my phoenix guard, who are holding whatever unit they are squared off against until they can be flanked.

And of course this principle doesn't apply against infantry blocks. The fact that you are actually better in combat than they are means the ultimate conclusion is the same. 22 spear attacks against blood letters causes 4 wounds or so. The two attacks back can kill 2, but you'll be winning every round against these dudes. The exception is plaguebearers who will hold you up much longer, but fortunately don't cause as much damage either. Your seaguard can cause a wound on average, and will lose 1-2. Basically, hold them in place and deal with all the more important stuff. Hit them with everything you can late game if and only if nothing is left standing.

Against nurgle, you may want to consider blasting them away with your flaming spells while moving your dragon princes into the Tzeentch units, since flanking nurgle is not necessarily useful, in that the bastards can still delay you until the late game.

A specific tactic is moving my eagle in front of my line facing backwards, preventing my from charging. I make sure it's far enough in between that if they charge the eagle, and the eagle flees, they'll move forward slower. Alternatively, I move it right in front of their units, forcing them to move forward 2d6 at an angle of my choosing, sitting still, or moving 1 inch at the angle of my choosing then standing still.

Another is leaping my dragon princes into their flank, then moving it into terrain sideways facing the flank of the center as they move up the middle. It creates a massive dead zone that they can't really deal with. None of their units can really deal with this threat in the flank, as their good skirmishers can only dole out flaming attacks, and this medium army has good magic defense.

To support that dragon prince creating that massive dead zone, I have to move up my infantry. If they decided to move a unit to face the forest blocking my dragon princes, I have to be able to flank it with infantry from the center of my line. At that point in time, it's all out assault, moving my unit right up to his face. I'll even charge in my seaguard at this point in time if I'm feeling gutsy.

Author:  SpellArcher [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Some unusual maneouvres there. I thought Chaos Knights did cause Fear these days? Standard of Balance is golden against Blood Knights.

Author:  lathian [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Guess he just didn't bring it up, seeing as how he charged my phoenix guard. Only have one game under them.

Author:  Foxbat [ Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

lathian wrote:
I use the middle approach. My army consists of 7 levels of magic (Eltharion the grim, 2 level 2 mages, 1 BSB with the radiant gem) 2 large units of seaguard, and mix of units of lions, swordmasters, phoenix guard and dragon princes. I also take 2 eagles and 2 bolt throwers.
Have you had any success with the middle approach where you do not use a special character?

Also, how has the strategy faired against a mono-Slaanesh leadership bomb? I would think that their high movement rates would tend force your hand and limit you to one maybe two turns of magic/shooting.

Author:  lathian [ Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

I use a prince with the bow of the seafarer and the BSB will have the reaver bow. The mages are shifted to a more defensive roll, swapping out fury for corin, and taking high and metal or beasts, as opposed to fire, heavens, high and shadow. It focuses slightly more on shooting, but gets the job done just as well. Manuever becomes slightly more important, but I save points, which can buff my elites a little. I played once and got a massacre, incidently against fairly mono Slaanesh, though it had a thirster instead of a keeper, and it had a flesh hound unit as well.

Against mono slaanesh, I put my elites in the center, advance them faster than my seaguard, and face my units outward, putting my army into the classic V formation, blocking siren songs in the center with eagles. The fast elements typicall have to hide, which means they do nothing, or they get shot down. As soon as the fast support elements have been destroyed, and the keeper at least wounded, I straighten the line and advance forward, assuming they haven't been forced to engage my infantry line head on. Since my commander and prince are in my center, this I'll have the edge there.

Commander, BSB and immunity to fear on several units is imperative. When you make a V formation, you cannot let any units break, otherwise the inverse side will get rear charged. The exception is getting him to rear charge your swordmasters, as they actually gain combat resolution from this.

I leave .4 gaps between my staggered infantry which gives my bolt throwers arcs of fire. I put those in spots that are not covered by my charge arcs so I can get units trying to get around the formation.

Slaanesh armies typically have weak magic, and absolutely no shooting. I do an advancing turtle. My dragon princes again set up dead zones, because his fast units can't take a charge from them, sans the keeper. Of course some times, I can break through a flank with my dragon princes, at which point that side of the V will wheel into the center and move across the side to engage head on.

I play this fairly agressively, pushing outward from the center, as opposed to the more common tactic of pushing in from the sides.

Edit: I've played mono Slaanesh against my high elves as well. The path to beating high elves lies in drawing units away from the battle line. The way to not get beaten is to force engagement against it, without breaking formation yourself.

Edit 2: This doesn't work with a gunline. The fast daemons just smash through the archers and use those gaps to get around your flanks. You absolutely must have durable units through the entire line.

Author:  lathian [ Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Offensive style

Offensive style is not my favourite style against daemons. It plays into their strengths, which even when I can match them, I'd rather not do.

Our offense lists assume we'll break through fast. This will not happen against daemons. As such, you must assume your units will charge in, win, hold, win as another unit charges again the next round.

Dominance of the flanks is far more essential than it is for the other style of army. If things are looking a bit touch and go, weight one of them, put enough to delay/push in the other. The center can be empty for all I really care, but a few blocks of core infantry advanced up quickly to hold them up a round or two can make a big difference. I often weight one flank with the dragon princes with the warbanner, my dragon and my swordmasters. This flank has rolled over a greater daemon with a double charge before smashing a unit of hounds, then rolling the center. The other flank was weighted with lions and another unit of dragon princes, this time with the commander. They were there to bitterly push forward, but were not able, in the end, to turn that flank.

Expect the battles to be fairly bloodless, surprisingly, with either a complete butchering of enemy units, or absolutely nothing happening in combat for either side. You should never commit to a fight unless you'll inflict high casualties on enemy units, or will tie them up over several rounds. Of course, if you flub something, expect incredibly high casualties.


Against daemons, I don't generally need to worry about shooting against my dragon or anything so if I have a charge, you'll often see me moving a unit of dragon princes into position, and my dragon behind the enemy line. This gives me a round of breath, but more importantly, I can charge the unit with one of my units, and reposition the other. For instance, if I get behind some hounds, and can charge them from the front with my princes (but they can't charge me) if they turn around to face my dragon, I'll charge with my princes and fly my dragon off to fight something else. They they keep facing my princes, I'll charge with my dragon, and move the princes to fight something else. This saves me units, and basically guarantees wins. You can do this with flanks as well against crushers or other super units.

Even more than high elves, daemons don't have an easy tool to deal with dragons. The only unit they have that's an easy fix for the dragon is the greater daemon, which as I've said many times, is a crap shoot. I frankly don't mind the match up. It's ever so slightly in our favour, if you can get the charge, though I seem to win most of the time when I'm charged as well.

Even if they don't try to counter your dragon with their greater daemon, your units should be able to either flee it if they are dragon princes, or should be able to pull a wound or two off of it, if they are swordmasters or white lions. (My swordmasters have actually killed a thirster before) The keeper is the exception, but you should be able to hunt it and beat it with the dragon, even though it will strike first.

Delaying units is just as important in this army as the others, and I take 3 eagles for this task, as I don't take as much shooting. March blocking, baiting and redirecting units into creating traffic jams all prevent his army from supporting other elements, which ultimately lets you pick off units at your leisure.

There are some tricks for getting flanks that I tend to do:

I place my dragon princes on opposite sides of the board, facing inwards, while moving my heavy infantry up the flanks to clear out any units that could flank them. Then I move the dragon around the back of their lines. I keep my spears and the bolt thrower in the center when doing this.

Unlike when facing high elves with Daemons, the daemon player can't respond by shooting down the dragon. This gives me at least one guaranteed flank or rear charge. Once I've broken whichever unit, I'll have one flank opened on one of their other central units (the alternative is they don't advance the line, which gives me time to position).

In front of that line, I'll put my eagle redirecting the units into the center of the board, which gives beautiful flank opportunities. A unit of hounds hit by this will be devastated no matter what they do, really. The beauty of this is that I don't need to waste a time turning to engage the flanks. Both sides move through the middle to the other side of the board, helping the heavy infantry who should be tying up whatever was on the flanks. The exception is the dragon, who should fly to assist any mistakes that have been made on my part, or to capitolize on mistakes they've made. This is most commonly disrupted by charges from the greater daemon, which I tend to flee from. Positioning is important, so I flee to an advantageous point, and he pursues into a point that can be counter charged by something like swordmasters or lions who can tie it up and eventually kill it.

Author:  saintjon [ Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Your mid-offence list has a lot of similarities to what I was planning to run for a tournament next month, I made some changes based on what you've said about magic etc., thanks for the well thought out methodology that actually involves my favourite unit, the seaguard!

Author:  lorslimshady [ Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

I've never played demons before, a list of what to shoot/magic in what order would be helpful.

Author:  geoguswrek [ Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

shoot the horrors till they are <5 each unit. after that shoot the bloodcrushers. After that shoot any screamers or slaanesh stuff, then any khorne stuff. don't even bother shooting flamers or nurgle stuff, you will never kill it.

Oh and use pit of shades, pit is REALLY good on nurgle stuff.

Author:  lathian [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

saintjon wrote:
Your mid-offence list has a lot of similarities to what I was planning to run for a tournament next month, I made some changes based on what you've said about magic etc., thanks for the well thought out methodology that actually involves my favourite unit, the seaguard!

Greater daemon, then slaanesh fast units, then hounds, then whatever. If I have fire, I point it at nurgle regardless of other target priorities, unless I think that fireball has a one in a million chance at taking out a thirster or something.

Author:  Rogmund [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

Thx. to everybody, the tips where more than usefull, 1400 points difference for me :)

Author:  Eltherion [ Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enemy of the Month September: Daemons

The above posts are very useful with some great tips and Strategies.

I don't believe in tailoring armies to fight opponents so the following comments refer to a Tourney Style list which is designed to take on all comers. Having said this, when I design Tournament Armies I tool them up to be able to cope with VC's, DE's & the dreaded Daemons (the big 3).

Magic Vs. Daemons
I thought I would focus my tips & strategies on Magic and which Lores will best deal with Daemon Armies. This Magic becomes more important in a defensive Army (see Defensive Armies by Lathian above). Magic is one of the keys to a successful defensive army and taking the right Lore can help immensely.

The Standard set up would be and Achmage (Silver Wand) or Teclis, either option with a Lvl2 (Seer Staff) as support and the Banner of Sorcery for extra power dice.

Now the Lores taken do depend on the Daemon Armies set up so I will try to cover some of the more common ones.

vs. Daemons (with strong Magic phase)
When fighting a Daemon Army with very strong Magic (14-28 Power Dice: Lots of Horrors) I strongly recommend both Mages taking High Magic so you can try spamming Drain Magic. Other useful spells for the Lvl 2 are Fury of Khaine & either Curse of Arrow Attraction (my favorite for my ranged attacks), Courage of Aenarion or Shield of Saphery are other possibilities depending on your army composition.

vs. Nurgle bunker list
It is essential to have Lore of Fire at least on your Achmage, to get past those Regen saves at least until the heralds are killed. Wall of Fire is excellent for halting those big blocks or doing damage to them if they keep moving.

Supporting Magic on your Lvl 2 can depend on Nurgle characters etc...Lore of Light can be handy with the default spell Burning Gaze (d6 Str 6 vs Daemons) and a support spell depending on your army set up. Another alternative would be Lore of Fire on the Lvl 2 with Fireball & Fiery Blast.

Daemon troops
Now watch out which units you are casting spells on, as a lot of Daemon troops have Magic Resistance, Teclis is an exception here as he may get lucky with a double and get the spell off anyway. Do not cast your bound items at a troops with MR.

Magic Resistant Daemons
Blood Chariot MR 1
Bloodletters MR 1
Bloodthirster MR 2
Flesh Hounds MR 3
Herald of khorne MR 1
(some of the characters which also have MR)

Targets for Direct Spells like Fireballs etc..
Beasts of Nurgle
Seeker Chariots
and most other troops

There are ways to get around the magic resistant troops firstly area affect spells which aren't cast directly on the Daemon units, examples of these include the Comet of Casandora Lore of Heavens & Cleansing Flare Lore of Light, where the Magic resistance doesn't come into play.

Secondly you can try to draw out the Daemon players dispel dice by casting on non MR units, then hit the MR units by using too many dice for them to be able to stop the spell.

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