Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:09 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:32 am
Posts: 10
So im probably going to be facing a daemons army for the first time soon, and i have no clue about what they can bring to the table, other than often hearing that they are overpowered. The game will be below 2k though so there wont be any lord choices, but all the same id much appreciate if people could advise me as to what kind of nasty things i should watch out for, items or units (like you should be aware of the ring of hotek before playing DE) and whats the best way to approach daemons - does magic work against them? More combat orientated? Shooting?

I have read 'The big 3' topic, but it remains that at the moment my knowledge is limited to knowing abit about bloodletters and that several units have MR(x), that generally daemons dont have armour but do have wardsaves.

Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:37 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
There isn't much to say besides "read their book" because everything in it is really good. The worst units in the daemon army are generally considered better than all but a few units in all other books. There are so many different very powerful daemon builds that giving one answer on "what works against daemons" is not helpful. What will work against a wall of Nurgle is awful against a khorne-dog list, for example.


Never expect to kill a daemon unit on the charge, unless it is very small. Unless you win combat by a lot (5 or more, minimum), don't expect them to care.

Never engage a block of Nurgle infantry containing a herald. NEVER.

Send Dragon Princes after Flamers. DP are totally immune to them, and you need to kill the Flamers before they gut the rest of your army. Flamers will destroy our infantry - they are a powerful shooting unit that is better in close combat than almost everything. And they don't cost that much.

Their stuff is at least as fast as ours. Nurgle infantry are move 4, everything else is faster. Flesh Hounds are move 8.

Magic level of Horrors is based on their size. Each x6 is another level, so 6 is level 1, 16 is level 2, and so on. Kill a few to take away a magic level.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:04 pm 
Offline
Shiny and Polished
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:26 pm
Posts: 1781
Quote:
Never engage a block of Nurgle infantry containing a herald. NEVER.

If you can survive the Herald's 3 S5 attacks (he cancels your ASF and makes you ASLast.) and either wield a flaming weapon or killing blow, by all means charge the plaguebearers and pop its head off. The entire unit loses Regen at that instant.

_________________
Kalandros Shadowsun


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:09 am
Posts: 11
Location: Lets have a look... I have no idea
make sure you have a prince with killing blow and ToL (it negates regeneration and armour saves) the targets for this are either 0+AS khorne herald bsb on juggernaut or that nurgle herald with 4+ regen and ofcourse 5+ ward save all the time. The main focusses are: his characters in units (because they alter the unit, either hatred, regen, 4+ ward save etc...) take 20 PG with battle banner, a prince in SM with banner of balance (to get rid of haterd and to not panic/autocharge yourself) or WL, DP with ellyrion banner, don't bother about magic yourself, just get enough magic defence. magic resistence here and there and some scrolls. screamers and flamers are your nr 1 priority to kill, because otherwise you'll have no choice but to watch and see your own army killed. screamers are nasty because the slash at you whilst you can do nothing about it and they can fly several times in the same turn over your units.

to kill a unit. make sure you win by 10+ or so (this means sword masters mopping everyhting, spears flanking and your general taking out the bsb) and even then it's possible they don't die all of them... the bsb is the key to this army. don't be too much afraid from his flying, large target guys. they're pretty vulnareble to shooting.
for any slaanesh character/unit be aware they can force you to charge
khorn has MR everywhere, but their characters mostly have flaming attacks if they have ST7 (here comes dragon armour in)
nurgle doesn't die as long as their heralds are alive
tzeench you wont get them and they will magic and flame you
slaanesh is a psycholgy bomb and ASF
and the worse thing of all, they can combine all the things I've just said.

but consider that most of their infantery only has a 5+ save and T3, so that's a bit of good news only khoren has armour saves mostly on their juggernauts.

_________________
The word is a rhythm of a rhyme that cant be expressed...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:22 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Albion
Well as aleondorxantress says, most of his army has T3 and a 5/6ward save, so our troops can pretty much force enough saves to make a good few die. In combat CR is our friend, as any left over CR will make that unit crumble, so if we win by 5CR they need to roll on their leadership add the five and any excess turns into wounds without ANY SAVE OF ANY KIND.

Slanesh: beware their banner, this can make your troops hold if charged, so any crafty maneuvering plans can come unstuck. Keep your SM away from these demonettes as they also have ASF, a higher iniative and armour piercing blows. Shoot them.

Nurgle: are very tough and the ultimate tarpit unit. As aleondorxantress says PG are the way, bog them down and win via CR.

Khorne: I know these guys should be scary but ive never had a problem with them. Spearmen always seem to do pretty well, ASF helps when you hit them with 15 S3 hits. I've never had to face the juggernaughts on a battlefield.

Tzeench: Shoot those flamers. Dakka dakka dakka should be your mantra (or twang twang twang). RBT on multi shot. All Tzeench troops have multiple wounds.

I would bring your standard 20 Archers, 2RBT, a couple of eagles and a large block of PG. Sprinkled a bit of magic defence with strong combat support.
Remember CR is your friend.

Oh yes I forgot to say that thier magical wepons are not classed as magical so all that Vauls unmaking and ring of corin fun is nullified.

_________________
No plan survives contact with the dice.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:32 am
Posts: 10
ah, some excellent stuff here thanks. So it would seem magic is not the way to go. As we will be playing below 2k (probably 1500 or 1250), at this level in my experience HE really can only function well magic heavy as their combat characters are abit limited when not mounted on monsters, so thats a shame. In that case might consider going with a caddy and a BSB and then packing the infantry for the SCR. If theyre are mostly T3 though that makes magic rather tempting.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:22 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12692
Location: Otherworld
They have a banner option where they pick a Lore and that Lore is at -2 to cast for the game. It also nerfs Light magic specifically. Doesn't work against Drain Magic though.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:05 am
Posts: 301
Location: Volo Bog
Use eagles to control the movement of his Bloodletters + Herald since they will have hatred. I like the old 40mm base sized eagles as his demons will only be able to attack back with two models (25mm x 2) versus the new 50mm based eagles, where 4 models can attack back.

If you charge his BL block in the side or rear with the eagle and survive, you'll break but they'll have to pursue you. Great for buying time, or executing a well timed flank or rear charge.

_________________
Visit my painting blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:17 am
Posts: 1593
Location: The flat land of nonsense (DK)
Don't underestimate Siren Song and avoid the Plaguebearers until end game. Flamers and Screamers should be priority as others said. A herald in common daemons is bound to be suspicious as they make the unit so much better.

Good luck!

_________________
High Priest of ASS


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:42 am
Posts: 272
Location: Connecticut
Also, there is a Nurgle item that can kill whole units, so watch out for it. I forget its name, but any Nurgle Herald, and prolly the GUO can have it, so up to 4 in an army. Its a 30ish pt. gift that is a bound spell that makes you take D6 Toughness tests with no armor saves allowed. Then you roll another T test, if you fail then you take a further D6 until you pass. I've seen elves of all shades decimated by this. A DE lord on a Black Dragon took like 30 hits from it and died, the dragon too!. It was Terrible. Watch out for any Bound Spells at all!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:05 am
Posts: 301
Location: Volo Bog
Hm, this has the makings of an 'Enemy of the Month' tactica...

_________________
Visit my painting blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:01 am
Posts: 1532
Indeed watch out for naughty Nurgliness. Learn to recognise what Gifts an enemy will have and you'll be able to outsmart your opponents.

For example in an all-comers game a Khornate Herald will usually have flaming attacks, rendering him useless vs your Dragon Armoured models (Beware the KB Juggernaut he rides though). However he won't always have it, so sometimes it might be worth sacrificing small units like Shadow Warriors or an Eagle just to find out for sure.

With Nurgle Heralds, there are two main set-ups, 1 has Staff of Nurgle (Magic missile that makes you keep taking toughness tests and more hits if you fail), 1 that has the ASF-cancelling ability. If you find your opponent hitting you with their Staffs, this means they're more vulnerable and won't stop your ASF, so if you can charge in with White Sword or Star Lance (With Loec of course) you should be fine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:09 pm 
Offline
Shiny and Polished
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:26 pm
Posts: 1781
ZehKaiser wrote:
Also, there is a Nurgle item that can kill whole units, so watch out for it. I forget its name, but any Nurgle Herald, and prolly the GUO can have it, so up to 4 in an army. Its a 30ish pt. gift that is a bound spell that makes you take D6 Toughness tests with no armor saves allowed. Then you roll another T test, if you fail then you take a further D6 until you pass. I've seen elves of all shades decimated by this. A DE lord on a Black Dragon took like 30 hits from it and died, the dragon too!. It was Terrible. Watch out for any Bound Spells at all!


Hum...

Staff of Nurgle
Bound Spell Power Level 3
This rod can cast the Rancid Visitation spell once each Magic
phase.

This is a magic missile with a range of 24".
Rancid Visitation causes D6 Strength 5 hits.
The target must then immediately pass a Toughness test (using the lowest Toughness if there is more than one value in the unit) or suffer a further D6 Strength 5 hits.
This continues until the target is destroyed or passes a Toughness test.

So please don't mix stuff up.
You take toughness tests until you pass one (thus a Dragon and its elf lord would need a 3 or less to pass).
For each failed test you take D6 S5 (randomized as shooting) - there is no mention of "no armor save" and it is more than 30 pts - but yeah up to 4 in a normal 2000~2999 pt army.

_________________
Kalandros Shadowsun


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:42 pm
Posts: 48
Stormie wrote:
For example in an all-comers game a Khornate Herald will usually have flaming attacks, rendering him useless vs your Dragon Armoured models (Beware the KB Juggernaut he rides though).


Herald also has Killing Blow, so he isn't entirely useless. If memory serves me right, he can KB Dragon Armour - wearing Elf even if he has flaming attacks.

Gotta check the rules...

_________________
Spider_wells wrote:
Infantry are great, if you're an infantry player.



The Order of the Mage Knights


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:48 am 
Offline
Shiny and Polished
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:26 pm
Posts: 1781
Franc wrote:
Stormie wrote:
For example in an all-comers game a Khornate Herald will usually have flaming attacks, rendering him useless vs your Dragon Armoured models (Beware the KB Juggernaut he rides though).


Herald also has Killing Blow, so he isn't entirely useless. If memory serves me right, he can KB Dragon Armour - wearing Elf even if he has flaming attacks.

Gotta check the rules...


You are immune to his attack because it is flaming attack, the same way you are immune to D6 Wounds of a Flaming Cannonball.
It cannot wound you if you are immune. Any Daemon player trying to play it otherwise is simply desparate - which is hilarious.

_________________
Kalandros Shadowsun


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Advice vs Daemons
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:44 pm
Posts: 1974
Silver wrote:
Any Daemon player trying to play it otherwise is simply desparate - which is hilarious.


:D

On topic. Daemons aren't too bad except for the special choices (except nurglings), the rare choices, the characters and the nurgle and tzeentch infantry.
In other words if the army is all khornate and slaanesh core choices, furies, and nurglings with next to no characters, then it is fine.

_________________
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group