Ulthuan

I am yet to field my HE army and am still trying to decide how my two RBTs can be placed to their full effect and how I shall use them. I think that I shall deploy them so that their area of fire can be combined to provide twice as much firepower. Are they best at giving covering fire for my spear elves or protecting the flanks? Any advice or info that will give me a clearer idea of my strategy when I do finish my army. Any comment welcome.

I use them in one of two ways:

1) Targeting the enemy hardest unit to weaken or kill it - shooting at Stegs, Dragons or big cavalry hammers is an example. Recently I haven't had much success using this tactic. These types of units are hard to kill and often have some way of additional protection (Lizardmen get the EotG and a -1 to hit banner for example).
2) Softening up a unit so I'm sure my cavalry will break it in one turn. This was my favourite tactic back in 5th edition - I concentrate my shooting on a weak flank I want to bend - archers kill the light troops, BRT's take away some ranks and numbers from the RnF or anything harder - DP's and chariots charge in and are in a position to flank charge the enemy's hard hitters.

In general, its good to have an idea for the RBT's. Shooting randomly at whoever is close is something warpfire throwers and hellblasters do - we've got the range, precision and reliability for a reason, IMO.

One RBT per thousand points is non-controversial, since results can be a little random.

Three tend to place the odds that you can take down a target with RBTs really favourably.

Placing them front and center, right next to each other is a good tactic if there's a lot of terrain and a central route of advance - it's easy to cover it, and you can protect them really well - but it's also worth looking at placing them on their own, on either flank... they can cover a lot, and the chance of them getting a flank shot as the enemy advances increases.

I like placing mine at the edge of woods, one in the middle and two on either flank... it confuses people as to where I'm setting up the majority of my army, and if the enemy devotes a unit to taking out one RBT, good on them - if its less than 100 points, it can usually be shot to pieces, and if it isn't, and it can take casualties, its usually not worth what they're diverting to take care of it. :3

Cheers! That clears up a little of my problem. Are Dragon Princes useful for taking out wounded or routing units- or shall I use Silver Helms to do that while using my DPs to take down the bigger threats?

tomwhar wrote:Cheers! That clears up a little of my problem. Are Dragon Princes useful for taking out wounded or routing units- or shall I use Silver Helms to do that while using my DPs to take down the bigger threats?

no space in a list for silver helms anyway If you've got nothing better to target then sure, mop em up. Otherwise, leave them for the time being and deal with them once you need to or can do.

I use chariots to clean up the battlefield. Dragon Princes go after medium-strength units (so anything I'm SURE they'll break on the charge). I use eagles to confuse the enemy hardest unit while I try to tie it up with some stubborn, fearless WL's. The RBT's switch between their tactics - usually they start weakening the opponents main unit once the DP's are safely in the back of the enemy formations.

Prince_Asuryan wrote:no space in a list for silver helms anyway

What do you mean? Do you not like them? They came with the Battalion that I bought and I have 10 of them in my army. This is so they provide fast attacks like pursuing and charging into flanks.
When I increase my army size I will include at least one eagle and another RBT. Thanks R.E.Lee

silver helms dont have much of a purpose since 9 points gives u dragon princes with +1 ws, I, A, ld, armor save, flaming attacks immunity and the ability to take magic items on the champ and magic standard on the bearer.

gogo dragon princes!

In my army I have 9 of them to protect the Prince I have. The price was quite extortionate. Just under £60 for two boxes of 5 DPs!

Yeah, SH are pretty poor. I'm a fan of the 5th ed metal models and tried to include them in games for some time but they just can't take the heat in 7th ed. Maybe if they were core I'd take them but this way?

I've thought of two ways of using them:
1) Sacrificial units of 5, no command, to try flank charging, war machine hunting and general distraction. Cheaper than DP's, so it doesn't hurt that much when they die.
2) A bigger, ranked unit with a hero or two, where its the characters, who do the fighting and the knights in the unit are just cannon fodder. Again, cheaper than DP, but no magic banner really hurt here.

Best just use the models you have as DP proxies.

I'm attaching a level 2 mage on a barded elven steed to the regiment so they can protect it. Tmage needs to be away from combat anyway and I doubt enemies would worry that much about taking out the SHs.

RE.Lee wrote:I use chariots to clean up the battlefield. Dragon Princes go after medium-strength units (so anything I'm SURE they'll break on the charge). I use eagles to confuse the enemy hardest unit while I try to tie it up with some stubborn, fearless WL's. The RBT's switch between their tactics - usually they start weakening the opponents main unit once the DP's are safely in the back of the enemy formations.

Oh yeah, that's good stuff, RE.Lee! That's exactly how I use my repeaters with cavalry and white lions. And the eagle, and the mopping-up (only single) chariot (who incidentally also makes an excellent RBT-defender). High fives.

EDIT: Having lots of fun with my 10 silver helms inc. Std and Champ (262 pts) running around with my mounted invinciprince (Horse kit+ Enc Shield, Vambraces, Sword of Might) and Battle Banner BsB. They run over everything in sight and at a reasonable cost: using DP's instead would just be overkill. They desperately miss their banner of ellyrion, though, *sigh*.

Does this tactic work well?

The silver helm tank? Hell yes. The crucial thing is that it gets a +1 for rank and +1 for outnumber, so it gets guarenteed combat res against tough or heavily armoured opponents who can shake off the dragon princes' extra Str 5 attacks. With the battle banner in there it'll run over 20-strong infantry blocks head on, as long as you can keept the BsB alive. That's why the prince is there, but a Helm of Fortune + Guardian Pheonix noble would work too against most opponents (and for use against 'normal' units 11 SH's with just the BsB is perfick).

I use the prince because I like my general model. Also, with re-rollable 1+ AS and a 4+ ward he doesn't die ever. Means I can use him to challenge the filth (dragons, bloodthirsters etc) and the tank he's riding with just rolls over whatever their chief is fighting with massive combat res. the sword of might he carries makes the unit viable for melee rounds if the banner should roll poorly on the charge (which it does more often than people give credit for).

Lack of a magic banner for the unit is a definite down-side, but with a unit like that you're already looking at a lot of eggs in one basket - 10 DPs is a LOT of points. I would do unspeakable evil things to have Banner of Ellyrion back on that tank, though. A unit that powerful running through trees is dangerous indeed.

Would you say that 10 Silver Helms would be a good bodyguard for my Level 2 Mage. They could charge any threat while the Mage would cast spells to protect and help them.

tomwhar wrote:Would you say that 10 Silver Helms would be a good bodyguard for my Level 2 Mage.

No. With a Mage attached, the unit does not want to be in close combat. Yet a unit of 10 needs to be in close combat or is a big waste of points.

In general, Silver Helms should be fielded as 115 pt units, or as 10+ with Battle Banner BSB (and likely a second character). Anything in between has no reason to exist and should be replaced by dragon princes.

10 SH to guard a mage? They're to expensive to be a bunker, to weak to be a combat unit. 5 with a mage could be cool, to give him the extra mobility, but anything more is pointless. A big unit can be used like Seredain says.

i'd still take pg over sh anyday

tomwhar wrote:

Prince_Asuryan wrote:no space in a list for silver helms anyway

What do you mean? Do you not like them? They came with the Battalion that I bought and I have 10 of them in my army. This is so they provide fast attacks like pursuing and charging into flanks.
When I increase my army size I will include at least one eagle and another RBT. Thanks R.E.Lee

They're in the battalion because they're plastic. As the others have said, there is no reason to take Silver Helms over Dragon Princes who do everything better for such a small points difference.

Similarly, there is no reason to use them as a mage bunker - mages shouldn't be in combat anyway, regardless of the bunker, and SH suck at that badly.

On this topic, I'm of the opinion that mages should never be mounted for several reasons:

1. The added movement bonus is not worth the loss of 360 LoS ad movement.
2. The ability for a foot character to move through terrain unhindered is crucial as mages tend to hide in woods or flit behind units.
3. the armour ain't worth consideration
4. Points better spent elsewhere
5. the -1 to hit for shooting isn't much, but it helps.

I would tend to agree with P_A’s rationale for not placing a mage on a steed.

However, I have found one combination that is fun to play: Mage, 2nd level, steed, Silver Wand, Dispel Scroll, and Amulet of Fire.

I have found a lot of players take the Lore of Fire against me when I'm using my medium/high magic, no Dragon Prince lists. Further, I have had a lot of fun with this mage set-up when I combo charge him with a unit of spears into Flamers. The mage goes first, who is immune to their attacks, in order to get the optimal alignment followed by the spears (if you’re lucky it’s a flank). In another game, I charged the Flamers with the mage by himself and moved up my spears (they looked to be out of range) to receive the charge when the mage fled. Sure this approach was more risky, but it worked. I needed to get into combat with the Flamers or risk losing the spears next turn.

Yeah I see what you mean. If the mage is mounted on a horse it can flee oncoming threats unlike one without a horse or mount.

If the only genuine hiding places are in cav units though?

A much safer tactic if using say... high lore, is to sit in a forest where no one can see you. Only one spell in high lore actually takes line of sight to use. My mages spend the start of the game in the white lions on in a unit of archers so they dont get picked off on turn one and they're always nearby a forest. I then move them into the forest on my first turn and they're there for the game, usually i try to have one in a forest on either side so that pretty much the whole board is covered by two mages that both have curse of arrow attraction.

Im not a fan of mages on horseback because they now have a frontal cone which you need to base your whole magic phase around. Unless its a scroll caddy that you just want to move fast out of dangers to keep those scrolls then I see no point in giving a mage a steed.

I have never played a game with my army yet so this tactic will be a definite one to try out. Perhaps I could use a regiment of spearelves instead of white lions?

Edit:My whole reply was about something else. Deleted.

Valeli wrote:Edit:My whole reply was about something else. Deleted.

Post something useful then! I need all the help I can get!

I've had great success with a mounted mage with my ER, the mobility is awesome. I've tried adding my mage to a Eagle Claw, but that just made them a juicier target without any added defense really Getting the mage into a unit if SW works well, And I have had success with a mage in a unit of Archers.

I’ve used the Shadow Warrior bunker, but to make it work effectively I have found the SW unit needs to have about 10 models (no champion) and you also need to place your BSB with the Standard of Balance in the unit. The Standard of Balance ensures that the SW unit won’t panic from shooting or magic attacks. As the SW is a Skirmisher unit, the mage retains his 360 degree Arc of Sight.

When the enemy get close, you move the BSB to an infantry combat unit and the mage moves to another unit or runs for cover.

Foxbat wrote:I’ve used the Shadow Warrior bunker, but to make it work effectively I have found the SW unit needs to have about 10 models (no champion) and you also need to place your BSB with the Standard of Balance in the unit. The Standard of Balance ensures that the SW unit won’t panic from shooting or magic attacks. As the SW is a Skirmisher unit, the mage retains his 360 degree Arc of Sight.

When the enemy get close, you move the BSB to an infantry combat unit and the mage moves to another unit or runs for cover.

That strikes me as a very poor bunker. To protect a mage, you rely on a 160pt unit of mediocre troops - who can no longer use the special rule that makes them worth taking - AND a BSB who should be else where. Why does this seem a good idea, when a unit of 10 archers is a perfectly good bunker or simply in the front rank of a spear unit until combat comes it's way? Or even having him alone and hiding around terrain which has always worked for me...