HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

[Jimmy]

Hey SM

Thanks for another battle report. More running commentary than analysis however for me.

I do like the themed list, ticks all the boxes for me and looks very interesting to play with and against.

Turn 1 – The encirclement begins with the warriors however you’re lucky enough to ‘break through’, gain reinforcements and make one of his heavy hitters break the line, a fantastic opening frame.

Turn 2 – DP2 why no movement?

Turn 3 – there it is – your signature move!

Turn 4 – Had Spencer packed his Daemon Prince that could have been interesting....

Turn 5 – Nice final charge.

I remember recently having a conversation with you about MSU being unable to score big wins. As per usual you go ahead and prove me wrong. A very well deserved win and such a solid victory seeing as the scenario was very random.

[Ferny]

Hey SM

Thanks for another battle report. More running commentary than analysis however for me.

I do like the themed list, ticks all the boxes for me and looks very interesting to play with and against.

Turn 1 – The encirclement begins with the warriors however you’re lucky enough to ‘break through’, gain reinforcements and make one of his heavy hitters break the line, a fantastic opening frame.

Turn 2 – DP2 why no movement?

Turn 3 – there it is – your signature move!

Turn 4 – Had Spencer packed his Daemon Prince that could have been interesting....

Turn 5 – Nice final charge.

I remember recently having a conversation with you about MSU being unable to score big wins. As per usual you go ahead and prove me wrong. A very well deserved win and such a solid victory seeing as the scenario was very random.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys!

Thanks a lot for your comments and feedback! Very much appreciated!

@ Electric Puha

Cheers! We talked about it with Spencer and we came to the conclusion that it was also better to either keep both units (Ogres and WoC with BSB) closer to each other or even let BSB join Ogres instead. But having the general nearby helps too, so good point.

@ Hinge

Yes, indeed! It is absolutely fantastic to play against a player who does not sulk in the face of bad luck and plays fair play even if your opponent (me) didn't know about that rule. I honestly didn't know that the rules state that if you don't have the model - you cannot have your daemon prince. He didn't even try to ask anybody to borrow something suitable or use his Lord as a proxy. Many players should learn from Spencer for sure!

it clearly showed my inexperience with single characters. I try to keep telling myself they are there as the army-of-one but sometimes my old habits of keeping the fragile characters in the units prevails. It was my mistake and I didn't use their potential for sure. As to the equipment we discussed that in the army list topic and it was simply because I didn't have enough points. I could have, of course, run BSB with fewer items and I didn't feel well with no-dragon armour on the characters. I guess I need to tweak my army list again to get it just to be ready for the case like this. it would have helped enormously to either contain the lord or make him less aggressive.

I didn't consider the overrun path to get to the sorcerer. it is definitely an option to consider although I must admit it looks like a risky one to me as sorcerer and his disk can kill 1-2 reavers and it might be a shaky break test to take for me. I am also not sure if I would have been able to place them so that nearby marauders cannot flank charge them but that could have been checked before the move.

Thanks a lot for the suggestion, however, as I really need to keep as many options open!

@ Bra'tac SM

Thanks!

No, that is not valid tactics for sure! The better one is to position dragon armour characters in a way that allows them to intercept the Lord with flaming attacks so that he is held for a while in one place. Also, challenging him to do the same is also a good way to do. In my opinion, delaying tactics is very good against such expensive individual characters as every turn they are not winning the combat they are not earning victory points. If, at the same time, you can kill more of the enemy army than they can kill your warriors, you are surely on the path to the victory!

The game was great indeed! I am really happy you acknowledge the sportsmanship of my opponent as I know it is very important to him and he was extremely happy when he learned he got the Best Sport award. So thanks on his behalf!

@ Jimmy

Thanks! I am really happy to know that a fellow battle reporter enjoys some morning read!

I was very happy with the strong first turn too because I needed a good counter punch after the enemy got their first turn instead of me! Any obstruction I could throw under the feet of the chaos warriors is great as it potentially slows their advance and gives me more time to set up counter attacks.

I think I simply tried to slide to the side and have marauders in a front arc and I didn't do so in the diagrams. Apologies for the inaccuracy and thanks for spotting it!

I was glad it worked so well! First, reavers got the spawn, second, the other unit moved far enough to open the path for heavy cavalry but didn't reach the ogres, following that heavies made a successful charge while on top of that there was enough space for lion cube to enter the fight. 5 wide unit would not have made it. It also seems I managed to sneak in either Iceshard or Miasma on WS on warriors that definitely helped to force Spencer to make double 1's break test. Even with a re-roll the odds were not great and a powerful unit was eliminated!

Definitely! My plan would be to challenge DP with a noble who actually had Dragon Helm to keep him in place. But it does not mean that with 2++ against flaming attacks I would have held forever. Should have given me time to move the units away though.

I was lucky to get that last charge and break Ogres despite them being steadfast. I didn't have to risk it but I wanted to finish a game with a glorious charge and this time it paid off!

Yes, it seems that is possible to get big victories with MSU but you have to be aggressive and try to get to the fights too. It is also worth noting that in this tournament one needs 2401+ points to get 20-0 score. If it were ETC for example, it would have been 20-0 for me.

In any case it gives me an incentive to play more aggressively. What is more, I used similar army to what I had at CanCon, at least in terms of units selection so it also shows it is how the player plays that matters the most, not the list he uses.

@ Ferny

Hm, it seems you have just copied post written by Jimmy

Thanks against for all the comments!

Cheers!

[Hinge]

Hi guys!



@ Hinge

I didn't consider the overrun path to get to the sorcerer. it is definitely an option to consider although I must admit it looks like a risky one to me as sorcerer and his disk can kill 1-2 reavers and it might be a shaky break test to take for me. I am also not sure if I would have been able to place them so that nearby marauders cannot flank charge them but that could have been checked before the move.

Thanks a lot for the suggestion, however, as I really need to keep as many options open!


Cheers!

Actually the the Marauders charging the flank is ok as it likely guarantees the Reavers are destroyed. The idea is to pin the Sorceror, the worse result is he breaks the unit on his own (needs 2 wounds to beast the charge and musso plus failed break test) and pursues the Reavers. I actually would have tried for a Wysan's on the Reavers if I had set up the over run into the Sorc.

As it stands, you were able to focus him down with shooting/magic. Searing Doom has to be scary for him!

Hinge

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Hinge!

Thanks for another comment! I agree that as long as he is around he is yet another problem out of multiple others that needs to be dealt with. Fortunately I have some tools for the job and I will gladly add your sound advice to the toolbox so that I have it ready for the future!

Cheers!

[Ferny]

D'oh - that didn't post right! I'd meant to highlight the T3 signature move for particular acclaim as it was T3 not final turns! An artefact perhaps of the scenario, but nice to see none-the-less.

A shame he didn't have the DP model, but you'd still have claimed the points and potentially you'd have the troops to at least tie him down at that late stage in the game, but I'm always keen to see how MSU deals with them (or anyone for that matter, but MSU now because that's what I'm experimenting with currently).

Also to share an experience - I got tabled Monday night vs WoC...but the list reminded me a bit of this one because it included MSU elements: 2x5 forsaken, 2x3 crushers, tzeench BSB and mage, slanesh DP and just one unit of 18 nurgle warriors. I was delighted because when facing a more MSU force I feel there are easier targets to win against. He threw away his forsaken into my lions and swordmasters, but I think I'd have tackled them next turn had he not. I combo-charged one unit of crushers (twice as it didn't break!) and set an over-run trap for the other with an eagle (though he disarmed it with a clever charge-path-blocking move with his BSB) and my shooting pinged wounds of the DP and took the warriors down to a more manageable size. Unfortunately I mis-prioritised dispels and he cacophonied a unit of reavers and a unit of DPs off the board T1 (half of my right flank!) and he IFed it later too...he also got a round where he MMed a unit of DPs and helms off the right flank with Tzeench magic (and he hobbled the other unit with the D6 random moves spell, though unsupported they'd have died anyway) so my cavalry didn't get the chance to do anything except be grist to the slaughter. Highlight was final turn, 1 wound on DP, one RBT lines up a single bolt...hits...and fails to wound. Goddam RBTs, so unreliable . Still, I remind myself they're not there to kill but to weaken and board control and kills are just bonus. Despite the result, I think the army behaved as it ought: I had the confidence to do combo charges against tough opponents, shooting did as it ought, and my cavalry definitely had some nice enveloping flanking moves going on - thanks for the tips on all three prongs which went well!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Ferny,

Thanks for your comments!

It was indeed great to have a turning point of the game by turn 3. In my opinion it was a result of the way this particular WoC army needs to play. It's obvious strength lies in the close combat so as soon as they get in there (although in a coordinated way) the better. That helps to position my units for combined charges earlier.

The scenario helped too because there is only 12" between deployment zones and that is not balanced out by the fact I deployed my regiments further anyway.

On your game experience.

Fighting against another MSU is totally different game. The opponent will neglect some of the typical advantages but at the same time the army list provides targets that can be crippled or eliminated in one-on-one fights. Then there will be a lot of situations were you have to go for unit exchanges. You attack, opponent counters, you counter the counter etc. You really need to try and think ahead to visualise the options, overrun/pursue paths and very dynamically changing situation.

That overrun blocking for frenzied unit is more and more popular. I see it done with other armies that have such units too!

Cacophonic Choir can be really nasty for small units, I know that from my own hard earned experience And some Tzeentch spells are really nasty if the player rolls well for Strength and number of hits.

As to that last chance with Eagle Claw. What was the armour on the Daemon Prince? Was it worthy to try multiple shot instead?

In any case good to know you had a good game and one always learns more from defeats. It was not easy army to defeat and I am glad you actually try to learn from the experience instead of blaming bad match up

Cheers!

[Ferny]

I've fought skink spam so many times now it's getting a bit boring - my record is a bit mixed but mostly small wins/losses depending on how the attrition goes.

But fighting high-value MSU opponents is fun , and as you say, a totally different game . Partly because, in this case, I have more experience with this type of list now than my opponent did, and partly because it does present more manageable targets to completely destroy. I actually think this was a good match-up for me:

1) the dreaded DP wasn't nurgle...this means that he should be easier to take down in combat (which I might well have tried if he hadn't shattered that flank with magic)
2) the forsaken were easy points for this list
3) there's only one third eye - that means either the BSB or the sorcerer is protected by a 'mere' 1+/3++ and neither have more than 2W, so there is a chance to take one down
4) the skullcrushers need support and can potentially be frenzybaited - they're tough but they have their weaknesses and we have high S attacks to take advantage of them
5) nurgle gorebeast chariots...I still hate these guys as I don't think they have any real negatives...and he took two...but they are relatively slow and present good flank/rear targets for cavalry (if they hadn't been destroyed by magic). As it was one didn't make it into the game and I baited the other to charge my steadfast archers with BSB (Ld 10 re-rolls)...they did stand and shoot, BSB did a wound with PoS and with it pinned in place I counter charged with my WL in the flank to finish it off - perfect! I was delighted by this - a chance to use archers as an anvil and a combat threat. It's taking time, but I'm definitely getting better .

In response to your comments:

On the frenzy over-run block, I'd completely missed this option and thought it was pure tactical genius. After the game he said he could see what I was doing from deployment!, so he had the counter well and truly planned out. Kudos to that man, and I'll have to think of a counter to that counter for next time !

The problem with Tzeench isn't just the randomness but also the lore attribute, which can kill as many as the initial spell!

The DP has 1+/5++...so the single bolt hits on 3's, wounds on 3's, ignores armours and is saved on 5's...compared to 4 hits, 1-2 wounds with 3+ then 5++. Neither was desperately likely to work. Statistically I'm not sure which is better but by that stage all was lost and I was happy to roll one for the cinematography of it (and I think single bolt might edge it?) .

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Ferny,

It is always hard to decide in the situation you have described which way to go with shooting. Personally, I choose multiple shot when there is only 1 wound to inflict because there is a chance to get more wounds. The fact it is not necessarily more likely to happen does not matter. You simply roll more dice and that is what counts for me.

But I do agree it is an epic moment when a single bolt takes down a Daemon Prince, no matter if it is on a single wound or not.

Ah yes, Tzeentch lore attribute, tell be about it!

[Nicene]

Multiple shot vs. 1+/5++ Daemon Prince with 1W remaining (long range):
chance to deal at least one wound = 20.3%

Single bolt vs. same target:
chance to deal at least one wound = 22.2%

Disclaimer: this calculation was done in bed on my phone.

[Iluvatar]

Actually your phone probably did some rounding which makes the result a bit incorrect.

If you're considering that:
N = Nb shots
H = To Hit
W = To Wound
A = Probablility to fail armour save
WS = probability to fail ward save

The chances to inflict a wound to the DP are simply N*H*W*A*WS.


Multiple shots: N*H*W*A*WS = 6 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/3 * 2/3 = 2/9 = 22,22%
Single shot: N*H*W*A*WS = 1 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1 * 2/3 = 2/9 = 22,22%

So in this specific case, the chances to inflict the last wound are exactly the same!

Notes:
- the Multiple Wounds of single shot is irrelevant here since you want to take the last wound off. But it's easy to see that you'll inflict more wounds in average with single shot if the DP has more than 1.
- the To Hit and Ward Save factors are not decisive either to compare the type of shots. This means that whether the DP is hit on 3+, 4+ or 6+, the chances to inflict the last wound are the same. Similarly, the Ward Save plays no role in the comparison.
- this result does not take into account the variance. You can expect the multiple shots to have less varied results in general. However, it does not change the chances to inflict that last wound, so it's irrelevant here as well...

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys,

Thanks for some mandatory math hammer However, Illuvatar, I don't think that to calculate the probability of the fact that at least one wound will be inflicted with multiple shot is a simple multiplication by the number of shots. Actually, if my calculations are correct then multiple shot is around 18% while single shot is around 22% at long range. Hm, very interesting indeed

In any case, in the meantime, an introduction to a battle report No. 4!

Game 4 - John - Monsters of Chaos - Blood and Glory

Game 4 and this time I met John, another frequent attendant of the tournaments (both WFB and 40K I might add) and this particular event organizer (one of two). We were about to play Blood and Glory scenario where breaking the enemy gave you extra victory points but didn't stop the game. How hard you broke them also mattered as:

1. If you break your enemy - 200VP
2. If you are first to break the enemy - 200VP
3. If the enemy is broken and 1 fortitude point below his breaking point - 200VP
4. If the enemy is broken and 2 fortitude point below his breaking point - 200VP

Breaking point at 2400 is 3.

I was about to face yet another Forces of Destruction army, yet another Warriors of Chaos force but this time of the Monster of Chaos flavour:

Monsters of Chaos - Army List

Kholek the Suneater
Throgg - King of Trolls
Festus the Leechlord - Lore of Nurgle
BSB - Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut, Sword of Swiftslaying, Dragonbane Gem, Soul Feeder

6 Chaos Warhounds, Vanguard
6 Chaos Trolls
3 Chaos Trolls
20 Warriors of Chaos - Mark of Nurgle, Halberds, Shields, Banner of Swiftness

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, Extra Hand Weapon
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, Extra Hand Weapon

Special character heavy, Monster Mash type of an army. I played against variations of such armies and boy, they are really tough.

Kolek - It was the first time I had an opportunity to face Kholek and this guy makes his fellow Shaggoths look like schoolboys. With 8W he can risk to take a cannonball or two and still keep fighting. With S8 and 7A (as well as a weapon to inflict D3 wounds) he is a character/monster killer. His special rule also means he can also target units with the Lightning meaning d6 hits with S6 in 24" in the front arc. Nice

What to do then? Well, first thing is to isolate if possible or even feed him with units to slow him down. Challenges and being steadfast as always help here. He is also vulnerable to Searing Doom (2+ armour) and Spirit Leach so if possible I wanted to try that out. I had to keep him busy and divert him at all cost as otherwise he can easily destroy any unit I could send at him.

Throgg - Throgg is another individual that can deal a lot of damage on his own. In addition to quite impressive characteristics he has that nasty S5 breath attack (super vomit), can help controlling monsters, allows Trolls to be your core units and have some fancy regeneration abilities. He is tough but I fought against him and he can be defeated. However, I could also assume he would lead bigger trolls to battle and as such this unit was very tough to defeat.

Festus - Another special character I had no opportunity to play against before. He is the only wizard in the army (which always helps) but a nasty one. He adds poisonous attacks to the unit and gives them regeneration 5+ which is fantastic for the Warriors. Inflicting wounds on that army is going to be tough! It is also quite difficult to kill him as he can heal himself with his potion. But some flaming attacks should do the job here!

BSB - Frenzied Champion on Juggernaut with ASF sword. Ouch. Searing Doom is not going to help against him as he has 2++ against flaming attacks. His 1+ armour save is also hard to overcome. He can be devastating when joining any other unit on the attack. Breaking him can be the way to destroy him or ... shooting a single bolt

Trolls - Always a problem but I have tools for the job. I can shoot them with the help of sisters and attack them in close combat with Dragon princes. Small unit should be possible to be destroyed by the knights alone but the bigger unit, in particular with Throgg, needs more resources. A few fireballs in the meantime also can help.

Hounds - small vanguarding unit. Not to be underestimated as they have a good role to play and throwing them to feed the enemy might not be the only one. Have to be dealt with quickly so that they don't mess up with the movement phase.

Shaggoths - One is a problem, two is very tough, add in Kholek and you have very, very dangerous trio. The question is, are they going to work together or as separate units? If they move separately there is a chance to get them. Not easy at all and I expected to lose some warriors, in particular in the infantry regiments.

The scenario allows the units to deploy closer to the enemy. That suits Monsters very well as they are combat orientated and want to be there asap. Because of that I decided to deploy on the back edge to give myself a little space. First, I wanted to make sure that my banners and characters (i.e. Loremaster and BSB) are relatively safe so I needed to see where the Monsters are and deploy accordingly. Basically, I wanted to create a situation where slower trolls and warriors would have further to go to my characters. In that way faster Shaggoths, BSB and Kholek have to either move alone or wait for the foot sloggers. I expected to have 2 turns without combat unless I wanted to.

Smaller and more compact army also meant that it should be easier to outflank it, in particular if it deployed centrally. The main approach would be to wound with magic/shooting and finish in charge while avoiding and diverting the attacks.

Deployment


Apologies for the quality - the sun messed things up!


Deployment of the armies after vanguard

As expected the minions of Chaos deployed in tight formation in the centre. Shaggoths guarded both flanks. Good. On the left flank, Dragon Princes with Banner of Eternal Flame were ready to charge Trolls (eventually) and Noble with Potion of Strength was there to threaten the Shaggoth. On the other flank, Swordmasters and Dragon Princes with Star Lance were to hunt down second beast.

Reavers on the left flank didn't vanguard to have a chance to charge Hounds turn one but Monsters of Chaos were about to move first anyway.

Festus rehearsed his spells: Curse of the Lepper, Rancid Visitations
and the army marched forward.

Monsters of Chaos - Turn 1


Kholek leads by example!


Monsters of Chaos move forward!

Kholek roared his order and there could be only one - forward! Monsters of all kinds sped forward as fast as they could. A steamroller of flesh, scaly skin and multitudes of mutations started to pick up its momentum.

First, Festus broke through the magical defences of the Loremaster and one of the Ellyrian Reavers unit ceased to exist, all riders victims to a horrible disease that developed in seconds. Then Kholek himself summoned power of the lightning but only two Sisters were struck.

Elves had to react quick!

Outcasts - Turn 1


Enveloping the enemy


Power of the magic and missile fire

The units on the flanks started outflanking the enemy as it left the sides of their formation relatively open. The units in the centre remained motionless and kept disciplined ranks despite incoming enemy.

First, Larry the Loremaster furiously attacked a simple mind of a Shaggoth and poor beast was barely alive after that experience. Then, the crew of the Eagle Claw aimed well and hit the enemy BSB with a single bolt. The missile hit perfectly and killed chaos champion on the spot!

Monsters of Chaos - Turn 2


Kholek attacks but is delayed


Monsters consolidate their centre

Kholek, irritated by the eagle, catches the bird of pray and shreds it to pieces. Throgg urges his minions to attack the eagle claw bolt thrower but they didn't respond fast enough. Other trolls, now without anybody telling them what to do, simply stumbled forward a few paces without any purpose. On the other flank, a Shaggoth moved to intercept Dragon Princes trying to outflank him.

The eagle proved to be a distraction enough because Kholek summoned a very weak lightning and only single Sister got struck.

Outcasts - Turn 2


First counter attacks


Outflanking proceeds

Elves proceeded with outflanking. On the left, Dragon Princes used the fact the nearby Trolls went stupid and positioned themselves for a flank attack. On the right, elven hero spearheaded the attack at the Shaggoth but thick hide deflected well aimed attacks. The beasted roared its defiance and held its ground.

In his eagerness to move his bodyguards to safety, Bob and Larry moved behind nearby trees but underestimated how thick and mutated they were. They completely blocked the vision and Larry was very frustrated that he could not use the magical powers strong winds gave him.

Monsters of Chaos - Turn 3


Left Flank


Centre and right flank


Attack through the centre (Edit: Apologies for inaccuracy of Kholek positioning)

Monsters attacked again. Wounded Shaggoth destroyed nearby Reavers while Kholek and Warriors dispatched two brave Sisters with easy. Kholek then tried to reach Archers but fell short. Barely. And proceeded to smash them with lightning instead.

On the left trolls stumbled forward oblivious to the fact that nearby Dragon Princes were about to charge them. On the right flank the combat continued. SHaggoth's hide proved too thick to penetrate by all but the elven noble. Shaggoth then tried to unhorse the knights but their armour and magical protection deflected many hits. The combat remained unresolved but Elves took heart as nearby Swordmasters were about to charge.

Outcasts - Turn 3


Dark forest on the left flank


Fleeing Warriors!


Flank Attacks!

Dragon Princes on the left, led by their noble, charged exposed flank of the trolls and one of the beast fell immediately to the fiery hot lances while another beast was wounded badly. They limped away and Dragn Princes didn't catch them yet to make sport of them soon.

On the right flank Swordmasters charged into melee. Even warriors of Hoeth may lose their resolve sometimes but they managed to land two deadly blows that ended life of the Shaggoth. Its twin fared not better as magical missiles finished him too. Surprisingly, that unnerved Festus and he ordered his warriors to carry him to the safety!

Monsters of Chaos - Turn 4


Kholek scares the Archers away


Festus miscasts!

Kholek was enraged and charged the Archers but young Elves fled, not feeling brave being alone. Throgg was furious that Warriors blocked his path to some Elves and had to move around. Festus, now confident and comfortable, cast deadly spell at the Dragon Princes and claimed all of the knights and wounded the noble. However, the feedback was devastating and Festus was promptly consumed by dimensional portal while his warriors were scattered around like rag dolls.

Outcasts - Turn 4


Elves regroup


Finishing the stragglers

Dragon Princes lost the interest in some fleeing trolls so Larry the Loremaster had to cast some spells to finish them before they started making trouble again. Swordmasters tried to avoid Throgg and his trolls while single Noble moved away too.

Kholek was about to get back.

Monsters of Chaos - Turn 5


Kholek retreats


Horrible fate for Swordmasters

Kholek returned but didn't fancy facing 5 Elven units on his own and started retreating. Throgg could not catch Swordmasters but was close enough to puke some horrible acids at them and all but 2 warriors of Hoeth perished.

Outcasts - Turn 5


With enemy too far away it was all up to Larry do some damage


Searing Doom!

With Monsters reluctant to fight and too far to reach Larry the Loremaster stepped in. He battled Kholek with his magical powers and magic missiles went towards the hulking beasts. Searing Doom reached him and wounded him badly. One more blow like that and even might Kholek can collapse.

Monsters of Chaos - Turn 6


Kholek is running away!


Throggs last charge - still failed

Throgg desperately tried to catch some Elves but still could not. Kholek summoned his lightning one more time but his wounds were deepn and his strike was weak. Only one Swordmaster died.

Outcasts - Turn 6


Last chance to get Kholek!

There was nothing else to do. Winds of magic were very low but Larry still summoned yet another Searing Doom. However, despite wounding Kholek again it was not enough to finish the beast. The Monsters were defeated but with Kholek alive it was a matter of time before they returned!

After-battle thoughts

First of all let me thank John for a very challenging game! His army is tough and he pressed it forward hard. He proceeded to smash all his other opponents and placed 3rd over all. Well done, John!

I was very happy with the victory over Monster of Chaos. It is very tough, resilient and fast army and it started closer to my lines than usual. Kholek is a beast and his lightnings are truly dangerous!

I ma glad I managed to destroy both Shaggoths and what is more, to get BSB with a single bolt! That required a little luck but it was definitely worth trying! That also helped to confuse smaller trolls and destroy them eventually although my rolls for pursuit and then charge were bad. I should not complain, however, as failed panic check for warriors and then cascade were definitely more unlucky for John.

With some bonus for breaking the enemy I got almost 700 points more that gave me 12-8 victory. And while that is the result I would have taken any time against this army, I always wonder what I could have done better.

I think I played good for first half but I didn't capitalise fully on the gained advantage (especially after killing both Shaggoths). John told me he was surprised I didn't target Kholek with boosted Searing Doom right from the start. Well, I need that breathing space and I thought I had better chances in killing smaller Shaggoths first to make it so.

However, from turn 4 I should have pressed from the left flank. Initially I deployed these units there to keep my fortitude points safe. But from turn 4 I needed them to press forward and try to surround warriors at least. I didn't expect I would have been able to panic them but even then my units should have advanced. That would have helped me to be closer to Kholek. In particular, I didn't use the great asset in the form of noble with lance and potion of strength.

Two small searing dooms in turn 5 and 6 would have been enough but I didn't roll enough hits with the second one and getting double 1 for winds of magic didn't help. Ah well, I guess I had my luck when I got BSB with that single shot!

Thanks for reading!

[Iluvatar]

Hi guys,

Thanks for some mandatory math hammer However, Illuvatar, I don't think that to calculate the probability of the fact that at least one wound will be inflicted with multiple shot is a simple multiplication by the number of shots. Actually, if my calculations are correct then multiple shot is around 18% while single shot is around 22% at long range. Hm, very interesting indeed

Damn, that's embarassing! Let's just pretend I'm not an engineer, right?
Or let's put that on the lack of sleep after getting to bed a 4:30 the night before due to a nice, big SoM game.

Still, if we take the multiple shot, it seems to me that each bolt has 1/27 chances to inflict a wound (1/2 (hit) * 1/3 (wound) * 1/3 (armour failed) * 2/3 (WS failed)). This makes 26/27 chances to not inflict a wound per shot, thus (26/27)^6 chances to inflict zero wound for 6 shots. This means 79.74% chances for no wounds, ie 20.26% chances to inflict at least one wound.
Please tell me where I'm wrong now!

As always, I'm looking forward to this game! That's a tough army you're facing: lots of hard units that you really can't face 1 on 1. But your skill is always impressive against such armies!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Iluvatar,

Don't worry! We like number crunching but sometimes a little things creeps in and you get funny result I basically used binomial distribution formula and 1/27 probability for success and 26/27 for failure. It seems I also made a mistake in rounding the numbers hence underestimation of my result for success. I agree with your last result and it seems that single shot still has slightly higher probability of success!

I do agree with Ferny that single shot is definitely better for story telling purposes! Although some master story teller as IlMaestro would use multiple-shot version as a basis for some epic description for sure!

I apologise for delay in report writing. I have finished making maps (finally!) and I hope I will have time to write up some time in the evening. So there is a good chance that some of you will have something to read for your morning coffee (or green tea!) tomorrow!

Also, thanks for kind words and trust in my skills!

Cheers!

[Hinge]

SM-

Another battle well fought.

I think that your deployment was very defensive (which is not necessarily a bad thing given the match up) but it precluded you from your usual envelopment tactics. Especially when you made an initial shift to the left. Your deployment also gave him a free push up the middle. Perhaps your Dragon Princes/mounted nobles should have been up more (though just out of first turn charge range for the WoC) to threaten a counter charge?

I would agree that you were fortunate to take down that BSB in one go. On the other hand, Festus getting Rancid Visitations was unfortunate as it gave him a deadly MM.

Also, could the Archers have sift reformed and walked out of Koleks LoS? Looks like a possibility from the picture. If they fled Kolek's charge, wouldn't Kolek have stayed on the board?

I also chide you in that on the final turn, your Loremaster should have run out of the White Lion unit on his own to cast his spells. A miscast may have created a panic test on the White Lions, failure of which would have seen them off the table and another panic on the Seaguard (trolls look the closest from the pic). While highly unlikely (though the BSB looks like he is also out of range), it is a completely avoidable risk.

Hinge

[Jimmy]

Deployment – I wonder why your opponent didn’t hug a flank to avoid getting swamped both sides?

Turn 1 – A strong opening turn for the Warriors, I always think if you can remove a unit per turn you’re doing very well indeed. Your reaction is even more spectacular neutering a Shaggoth and taking out the BSB.

Turn 2 – what exactly happened with the forest? Direct damage spells don’t need LOS?

Turn 3 – Not that your opponent had many units to begin with however he’s losing them rapidly it seems and losing his positioning.

Turn 4 – Archers failed terror or you decided to flee? Kholek off the table? Ouch on the Rancid Visitations, the spell is harsh against T3 elves if it gets through!

Turns 5-6 – Frustrating about missing out on Kholek!

Great game, well played as per usual. Shame the Lions didn’t get any action however!!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for your comments! As always, very much appreciated!

@ Hinge

Thanks! Can't complain about the victory

But one should always strive to get better and I appreciate the criticism.

I could have definitely deploy the Knights on both flanks (in particular on the left) to threaten with these first turn charges. In fact, John moved his shaggoth on my right a little less aggressively just because of that threat and I was considering the first turn charge already. The distance, however, was not in the range where I would have risked the charge yet. The odds were not too bad but I didn't feel comfortable with that charge yet and I decided I can do better with threatening the flank.

I also didn't want to deploy my nobles alone as I was concerned with Kholek's lightning that would have had a good chance to kill any one of them in an instant.

While little luck sometimes is needed this particular Eagle Claw has a track record of pinning down a few chaos champions already! Hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+ is good for me. It was the number of wounds that sometimes is the most disappointing. Of course I had moments when I spectacularly failed to do anything, like rolling a 1 to wound or to hit (despite having +1 to hit with a spell on short range ). But if I didn't try I would have had that result for sure!

Silly me on not reforming the Archers into a column of 2 and marching away from Kholek

As to fleeing the charge John claimed Kholek would pursue off the table as well and I took his word for it. Did we make a mistake here? I will check later as I don't have the rulebook with me.

Yes, I am guilty as charged with the Loremaster positioning last turn. I did move BSB to provide re-roll but that was not the best option. Why risk panic checks when it could have been avoided?

I guess these mistakes are also the reason why I didn't capitalise on the advantage I managed to obtain in the first half of the game. Still plenty to learn so thanks for pointing these things to me, Hinge!

@ Jimmy

I didn't talk to John about his deployment but this is what I think is probable explanation. I believe that he did so because it was not clear where my units are going to be. By the time he deployed his army I still had half of my regiments waiting. deploying in the centre gave John the opportunity to decided if he wants to go left, right or middle with his army. If he deployed on the flank he would have had longer distance to cover if I decided to put things in the opposite corner.

I actually expected him to move for the kill and wheel towards my left flank but he chose weak middle instead.

Playing against WoC one can forget they actually have a potential to destroy units at range. John's army was not even the best at it but had some solid options. I also think he did will with targeting as he had several options but went for fast troops that can mess up his movement and by doing so he took away some of my options. That is also the reason why I like to have units that can double their roles if something goes wrong.

I was very happy with the opening turn as Larry did great with his magic. I am still wondering if the suggestion I got to 6-dice Searing Doom when possible was not a better one. I still have tools to deal with smaller Shaggoth on the right flank even without magic. While in this particular scenario, killing Kholek gives you amazing advantage. You get heaps of points for him (also +100Vp for the general), then 200VP for breaking the enemy, 200VP for breaking it first and since he is worth 2 fortitude points (half of it for John's army) there was also 200VP extra to grab. Damn, it does look like I didn't prioritize well

if you look at the picture you will see that it is so dense I could not even see through them that immediately took away the options for magic missiles. Searing Doom was not the option then

I was very happy with turn 3 and all that lead to that. I was a little unlucky with Star lance charge (got only 1 wound as the re-rolls to hit didn't quite work and wounding on 3+ is not a guarantee of a success). But had Swordmasters to help who inflicted these wounds needed despite failed fear check. Finishing the second Shaggoth was also helpful even if he was on a single wound. I sometimes fail to roll that 6 to wound! It was a priority for me to kill these guys as they are very fast, hard to divert due to small footprint and can butcher my small unit all by themselves. I can challenge Kholek at least, can't do that with these boys.

Archers failed terror and I had no option but flee.

I agree on the Rancid Visitations. Dragon Princes are these who actually can do better than others but I simply failed my 4+/6++ saves anyway. Lucky me Festus decided to cascade himself.

Well, that was indeed a little frustrating because despite what other players said (that I should have 6-diced searing doom right from the start) I think I was still in the position to get him. I had 2 magic phases where there were at least 2 spells to hurt him. Searing Doom and Spirit Leach. But it just shows that magic is fickle and with very weak winds I could not relay on that. Another reason why I think I should have pushed hard with the units to catch the beast in close combat anyway.

Thanks Jimmy! I am still happy to win that game, even if I can see now I could have done much better

Cheers!

[Ferny]

I think you did well against that list Swordmaster. I agree with your priortisation too - Kholek might be worth a bucket of points, but your loremaster proved man of the match (or if not, at was close to getting the acolade). What if you'd 6-diced and cascaded? Then you lose general and magic and fortitude etc! Or even just lose levels, or blow up a bunch of lions. 6-dicing is always an option, but without the BotWD and on a Lv2 caster I don't think it's a great one. Your approach worked well.

Could you have done more? Well, it looks frustratingly close to a yes because you so nearly had him...but actually, your flankers did their thing, the re-directors took the hit, and your shooting/magic/cav got the kills. So I guess other than mobilising the lions there's not a lot more you could squeeze from your list?

Also, bonus kudos for all these reports. I'm now truly realising just how much effort goes into them!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Thanks for the kind words, Ferny!

Yes, it does take time to write a report. And one can get easily distracted with some other discussions

I actually didn't consider 6-dicing the spell as I know that without earthing rod the way to mitigate the chances of cascading the loremaster is to cast low level spells with 2-3 dice. I had the Book to help me, right?

I assume I can always do better. And I think it is always true. In this case I protected my fortitude points but I also had some to bleed if needed because I had an advantage in that field. So pushing Lions forward would not have been a bad idea in general.

What I didn't like in my behaviour is that once I cleared the flanks and saw Kholek isolated and retreating (so not a danger any more) I was content with that. While I should have always try to push harder simply to get more points, as every point matters at a tournament with 20-0 system. For example, I was less than 50 points from getting 13-7 victory too!

The good thing is that I am glad I did enough things well to secure the victory and I know now what to do better next time!

Cheers!

[Hinge]

SM-

Absolutely agree, with two gnarly magic missiles, the nobles cannot be running around on their own!

Any criticisms are nitpicks as there is rarely any major mistakes in your games!

I am pretty sure once a unit runs off the board, it would be a failed charge for Kholek and he would stop an inch away from the board.

Hinge

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Hinge,

Thanks! I am glad to hear that my occasional silliness is not considered a major mistake

Hm, so it seems we played that wrong, ah well. Definitely helped to save Kholek from some magic

Cheers!

[Nicene]

Why did you not charge your noble solo out of the western dragon princes at the fleeing trolls? Then the DP could move even if you failed the charge roll.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Nicene,

It is due to the fact that solitary noble is very vulnerable to Kholek's lightning. This attack is resolved in the shooting phase and there is nothing I can do to prevent it.

Cheers!

[Curu Olannon]

Solid game vs monster mash, congrats on the victory! One quick question, regarding the following:

In his eagerness to move his bodyguards to safety, Bob and Larry moved behind nearby trees but underestimated how thick and mutated they were. They completely blocked the vision and Larry was very frustrated that he could not use the magical powers strong winds gave him.

Only magic missiles require line of sight, direct damage simply requires front arc. Did you attempt Spirit Leech / was it dispelled?

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Thanks, Curu. Yes, I did try to cast Spirit Leach but it was either dispelled (due to lack of other options it was easier to make it a priority) or the roll-off was not in my favour.

[Ferny]

Gah, I hate Spirit Leach - it's one of those 'must dispel' spells because a simple dice off can be devastating...and then it can do nothing .

[Nicene]

Isn't there a specific set of rules in the BRB regarding forests explaining that the trees are there for decoration only, and to remove them if they get in the way?

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Nicene,

I was told that we were playing true line of sight or whatever it is called meaning that if the model can see the target, then it is visible. If it cannot, then it is not. I simply made a mistake assuming woods don't block LoS and that shows that one should read players pack more carefully.

[Glonojad]

Sorry to interrupt the natural flow of things, but I only just begun reading the thread...

So, as for Battle 1: I think that the "castle" (or karak) might be more effective if deployed around the building or on the hill. Giving maneouverability options to an Elven AND MSU army seems tricky - and the Elves got on the flank from turn one. Still, it is easy to say so from a comfy armchair .

I am also undecided if going for the warmachines with the cav (especially the full-strength Dragon Prince unit) was a good move - still with wide Slayers blocking Ellyrians there was no other choice at this point.

All in all - a very nicely executed encirclement!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

@ Glonojad

Thanks for the comments! Glad to see you are catching up

Unfortunately, the castle does have merits even if it does not win Dwarven players many friends. I agree it would have been way more difficult to get these combined charges. The reason I went for the artillery though was that I really didn't want to risk any other uncontrolled rocks dropping on the heads of my heroes.

Other than that I am of course very happy I could perform that double envelopment!

Cheers!