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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:57 am 
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Well, as the title suggests, this list was inspired by Swordmaster of Hoeth and Nicene. They've both got excellent BatReps on this army style and there are some cool, considered discussions to be found here, here and here.

To start the threat I've copied across my list and comments from where I first posted it on one of Swordmaster's threads.

Lords - 320
Laraib, Loremaster: BoH, Crown, Dragonhelm, ToTS - 320
Well, having been bitching about points, I actually had an odd number left over and bought ToTS...alternatively I was tempted by Ring of Fury in case he fails concentration/I want to 6-dice something...

Heroes - 155
Corvus Bennetti, Noble BSB, Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Reaver Bow, PoS - 155

Core - 600
10 Archers - 100
10 Archers, mus - 110
15 Archers - FC
5 reavers, spear and bow, mus - 105
5 reavers, spear and bow, mus - 105

Special - 1015:
5 Dragon Princes, banner, champ, flame - 175
5 Dragon Princes - 145
5 Sword Masters - 65
5 Sword Masters - 65
5 Sword Masters - 65
10 Phoenix Guard, FC - 180
10 White Lions, banner, gleaming pennant - 145
10 White Lions, FC, discipline - 175

Rare: 310
2xEagles - 100
RBT - 70
5x Sisters - 70
5x Sisters - 70

Total: 2,400

Comments:
Over-all this list is pretty true to Swordmaster's original which I've cribbed from, with the biggest change being switching out 2x12 SM with command for 3x5 no command (a la Nicene) and 10xPG full command. I'm happy with this - it frees up points, gives more drops, opens up lots of flank/redirector options. I think PG and SM fill a similar niche in this list, namely high volume attacks (PG trade 2A for ASF re-rolls, a pip lost in Strength, but the awesome save). I dig these tweaks.

Changes which I'm considering already:
I'm less sure about the MSU archer options. In theory they're chaff/throwaway, and as my loremaster option doesn't have much in the way of nice boosts for them they benefit less from being a single unit. But I am concious of blocking LoS and the fact that they're less suitable as a combat block/steadfast breaker, so I suspect I'll amalgamate them after a practice game. I think 18 archers with FC will compare on a par at least with 15 seaguard FC.

If I switch the loremaster to an AM then I'd lose ToTS and Dragonhelm, and would almost certainly buy in the ring instead, as I think it is more valuable when you only have 4 spells (a little redundant on the LM). I'd save 10pts from the switch.

I might put the BSB on an eagle, taking the points as a straight swap from one unit of swordmasters, plus 6pts for a lance...which without doing anything more drastic might make the mage switch necessary. I'd probably also switch him to charmed shield if I did this, although that leaves me relatively more vulnerable to small arms fire (but who takes that these days anyway ;) ).

I'd like to get my FC back on the gleaming lions unit but would need to free up 20pts, which aren't immediately apparent.


BatRep to follow in next post.

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Last edited by Ferny on Mon May 26, 2014 12:04 am, edited 10 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:57 am 
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Quick comment on my opponent Sam. He's always fun to play against and most recently he's been rocking daemons. He started off with a really friendly list but has gradually been buying more models to make it tougher, which I'm delighted about - as I always try to build as solid a list as possible I like to play against filth.

He's now got double skullcannon, papa nurgle, epidimius with plaguebearers, multiple nurgle beasts and nurglings. FWIW, of the lot, the nurglings have been the MVP in so many games! This solid base is then supported by pink horrors and flamers. I don't know how optimal these two units are but I think they support his list pretty well, adding fairly robust magic users and shooting to an otherwise points denial/poison list. I think having slightly larger beast units would be considerably harder to deal with and I don't know enough about greater daemons to comment on papa nurgle, but all in all I reckon this is a very respectable list.

Against that I brought my first ever full MSU army.

OK, here's the deployment photo - comments welcome:

Image
Please note the bottom right forest is misplaced and should actually be about a foot further forwards - oops, first time error :oops: .

He deployed his three beasts, then the cannons and tzeench stuff and nurgle last. I deployed reavers and eagles first - after that it's pretty much a blur as I had 19 drops vs his 9 plus scouts.

I'll be honest - we were both really confused about what to do in deployment. He had literally no idea where I might go with what so decided to spread out to make sure he could catch me somewhere. Likewise, I had so many units I was a bit over-whelmed to be honest. I've seen from swordmasters reports and commentary that vs MSU this is probably the worst thing you can do - instead you want to be compact and not offer lone units to be picked off. We'll see how it plays out...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:38 am 
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Pre Battle Plan:

Hah! A plan?! Well, here were my thoughts - or at least, what I think were my thoughts after the event!

I knew from past experience that the nurgle beasts were a pain in the arse to deal with in combat. -1 to hit, T5 and 4W just don't shift easily (and that's ignoring regen/ward and no flanks/rear). Oh, and they have M6 and swiftstride to get into combat fast. Anything else you wanna pin on these guys rules wise? Challenge like a character why not? For how many points :shock: #-o . Ah well. So the plan was to shoot these with sisters to remove their regen, and then hit them with reaver bow, RBT and the big unit of archers on the hill. I also put my pheonix guard and flaming dragon princes on that flank, figuring that the PG could absorb a lot of attacks and lock them in place for the dragon princes to flank charge them...albeit not in their actual slimy flank [-X . This might not have been so clever as PG have higher I and no GW, so wouldn't benefit from the flaming attacks, but they were really more like bait than damage doers in my head. The DPs would hopefully keep the skullcannon honest too.

Incidentally, I chose to deploy my BSB solo for this match. I figured his dragon armour should keep him safe from cannon snipes, he's out of range of the flamers (which aren't flaming anymore, WTF) and enemy magic wasn't much of a threat to him. That way he wouldn't impede the movement of other units and wouldn't suffer -1 movement penalty. I'm quite proud of this, although I guess it could have gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Meanwhile on the left flank I thought between my archers, swordmasters and dragon princes I'd be able to tie down or take out the flamers and tzeench block. The cannon chariot was a bit of a threat so I had to approach carefully, and I moved my lions up to counter charge or take the hit as required - this also got my loremaster into range.

In the centre I think he made a big mistake in scouting the nurglings where he did. He as baiting me to charge, but actually, my swordmaster units aren't as wide and are likely to win or draw at least one round of combat, and will thoroughly block the centre of the table. And with such small units I could feed a second one in to help kill nurglings and continue to tie up that centre. Meanwhile, I figured I'd basically play a bait and re-direct game with eagles and reavers to keep the plaguebearers block at bay and to slow the chariot/beasts. To a certain extent I think he could have countered this by ignoring the bait and moving forward as quickly as possible, but it pretty much worked.

Things I wasn't so sure about:
While I'd like to pick off models from the nurgle block, I really couldn't afford to do so until I'd neautralised the rest. That meant that there'd be a huge block of points marching across the board in full denial mode. Between -1 to hit, T4 (boostable via epi/magic) and two characters I really don't think I could take this block on unless much depleted. Fortunately, I should be able to redirect a horde that size til the cows come home!

Epidimius. I'd heard he's nasty and that one thing to do is to assassinate him. In theory I could throw swordmasters at him, but I think it would divert too many resources to do this. Death snipe is an option, but I was out of range and had other magical priorities. So I basically chose to ignore him and his block.

Great Unclean One. T7 and 6W, with thunderstomp and stuff. I basically didn't think I had anything which could touch him. Again, redirect and ignore!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:57 am 
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Deployment, Scouting, Vanguard and First Turn:

I can't remember who chose sides, but I'm happy I got the hill for my RBT and big archer unit. Depending on the range of his spells the house might have made a good bunker for his horrors, but he didn't choose to go down that route.

He scouted the nurglings in front of my reavers which really messed up my vanguard, but didn't matter because I still had 18" to play with and limited ranged threat to worry about. The grey arrows show my vanguard movement.

He rolled first turn but gave it to me. I'm not sure why - he pretty much has to advance towards me, so why suffer an extra round of magic and shooting on route?

Turn 1: High Elves
Given how long battle chronicler is taking me (new to it, sorry) and how complicated things get with so many units, I'm going to blur the various phases together for each flank and the centre, which I think will hold the narrative more stongly...feedback welcome.

I was tempted to chugg the potion, but thought I'd get a better shot at close range so kept it in the bottle.

I got off a 12" charge by the swordmasters on the central nurglings. In combat I did a wound or two and he killed two in return: it was a draw/small win but we both stayed. Perfect start!

My right flank advanced gingerly, not wanting to give an early charge which would reduce the shooting potential on the beasts. With hindsight I regret not moving up more aggressively, given that one flank was semi-protected by impassable terrain, forest, and the rest of my army!

But whattamistaketomakea! I didn't move my sisters, assuming 24" gap on deployment, why shorten it, fire at long range and don't add movement as well. Fair enough. Except due to the angles both units were out of range and wasted a turn of shooting. Rats.

Similarly, I managed to obscure the LoS of my BSB to the beasts...but luckily I rolled 3 5's to hit and did some wounds anyway, despite the cover and regen saves!

On my right flank I was much more agressive, moving dragon princes and swordmasters up to within a 9+ on dice charge for the cannon and bringing the lions forward to support. Sadly this blocked the LoS to the flamers, and as they're skirmishers, I instead chose to plink off some horrors from the small archer blocks. And plink they went, 2-3 dead. In magic I cast 2D6 fireball and shems at the flamers, getting one spell off and killing two. I then did iceshard blizzard successfully on them as they still posed a serious threat even with their depleted numbers.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:05 am 
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Turn 1: Daemons

No charges so straight onto movement. On the left side the flamers moved into a gap in my arc which I'd stupidly left with my DPs. They then shot at the swordmasters, but thanks to iceshard blizzard one was left standing, and he made his panic test. (I've just realised I forgot to take my 6++ jedi ward save vs shooting). The skullcannon moved up and grapeshotted 6 white lion escorts into oblivion, while the horrors backed off a little.

In the centre the nurgle block advanced, but he made a big mistake here, which might well have cost him the game. Expecting the nurgle/swordmaster combat to be over quite quickly, he moved right up behind them, blocking himself in.

On the right flank a beast and the cannon failed charged the eagle/reavers who both fled towards my BSB rally point. The other beasts trundled forwards.

Magic was uneventful and in the combat phase he killed off another two swordmasters, but my remaining one did another wound and held his ground.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:20 am 
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High Elf Turn 2:

On my left flank, given that I couldn't charge the flamers due to my poor arc angle (doh #-o ) I threw caution to the wind and powered by Dragon Princes 18" towards the flank of the horrors unit, through the wood (losing one) which turned out to be a venom thicket.

Both small archers shot at the flamers but only downed one, leaving a unit of 3 left. Magic was largely shut down.

I then pushed a unit of reavers up into the face of the cannon chariot and moved the swordmaster up to take the over-run (hoping that, with a clear LoS, my archers would deal with the flamers). I edged my depleted lionguard back for a flank counter-charge and pushed my full unit forwards for a rear counter-charge. The trap was set!

I then cast spirit leach on the chariot, scored a massive 6 vs 1 on dice and destroyed it outright, thus foiling my carefully laid trap. Only afterwards did I realise that he didn't have frenzy and wouldn't have to over-run, but could instead pivot to face my lions and avoid all the nasty. Phew, lucky escape.

In the centre I charged a second swordmaster unit in to the nurglings and finally killed off a base, without loss IIRC. Either way, all units stayed put, nicely blocking up the centre of the board. Re-directors rallied and went back to it...this is also where I remembered that my reavers have bows (for once) so this turn I used them!

On my right flank, the left most sisters were in range and the right most ones had to wheel and move (no musician, woods, argh, very poor placement. I then opened fire across the board and took out a beast of nurgle. From this point on I'm happy - part of my plan has worked! I concentrated my fire and killed my target! Just two more to go...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:37 am 
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This game should be good!

To help you with future deployments, I think deploying more units as less than 5 wide will help to save space. The Reavers and especially the Sisters can be deployed 3 or even 2 wide and still fight at full effectiveness.

On Battle Chronicler - but I've found to be very helpful is to map out what happened in the turn, then write it all up, then go back to Battle Chronicler and fix all the things I missed out the first time. Only then do I save the picture and move on to the next turn.
It also gets a lot faster to use. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:42 am 
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solith wrote:
To help you with future deployments, I think deploying more units as less than 5 wide will help to save space. The Reavers and especially the Sisters can be deployed 3 or even 2 wide and still fight at full effectiveness.


With reavers totally, I should have done this, especially as I'm not expecting first turn charges from them. I think I was mindful of the cannons though, as my list doesn't offer much in the way of non-grapeshot targets, so a first turn pop at ranked reavers might actually not be a bad option (with other options being ranked lions, eagles and RBT, or testing the noble for dragon armour :wink: . It's a fairly cannon proof list I think (though their chariot potential was awkward!). With the sisters, stupid as it sounds, I find that ranking them up makes the range tougher with just 24", especially if I get first turn...although as you can see in this game I ballsed that one up anyway, and having the extra space would have been very helpful! So yeah, good suggestions!

Quote:
On Battle Chronicler - but I've found to be very helpful is to map out what happened in the turn, then write it all up, then go back to Battle Chronicler and fix all the things I missed out the first time. Only then do I save the picture and move on to the next turn.
It also gets a lot faster to use. :lol:


Thanks - I'll take that tip from our most prolific battle chronicler! Although maybe for future ones - this takes sooooo long!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:51 am 
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Daemon Turn 2:

In a surprise move, the pink horrors charged the reavers which suddenly weren't facing immidiate khornate death. I could have fled and failed charged it, but actually I wanted the horrors closer to my lines so I held (actually, S&S). I killed a couple to shooting, a couple to combat and I think one to a horse, but they still beat me on res and over-ran into my lone swordmaster (who had been positioned there to catch the chariot charge! Obviously, this took them out of dragon prince arc, so they'd spend another turn prancing around (to be fair, with a nice threat range!).

The flamers moved up behind the dragon princes and shot them, but my armour held. Sadly, yet again, I wouldn't be able to charge them and now they were in woodland cover as well!

The nurgle block in the middle is still blocked by the ongoing combat in the middle, but the GUO charged out at a unit of reavers, who very sensibly fled, but sadly were caught. Following the "charging for dummies" thread, this put the GUO behind my combat units and facing all my archers/RBT - at this point I just felt he would eat through my back-field single-handedly! He also cast a magic missile on my lion bunker though, taking my golden crown save and killing off the remaining 4 lions. My loremaster was now standing solo!

This was also a double 6 phase so he generated a unit of 8 horrors behind my right most sisters!

One beast managed to squeeze into the swordmaster combat. I think this was a rules mistake but it got in, making that combat finish much sooner. The other one trundled forward. The cannon on the right pranced, possibly taking a lone wound of the RBT (phew!) - that definitely happened but I forget which turn.

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Last edited by Ferny on Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:09 pm 
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High Elf Turn 3:
On the left I charged my loremaster into the front of the horrors and my lions into the flank. There were about 15 at this point, although we forgot to do the blue horror split (Sam was too focussed on keeping a nurgle tally for epidimius :lol: and I didn't know the rule). I challenged with my loremaster and the herald went to the back rank - this meant that my lions should get the benefit of his The Other Trickster's Shard. The combat when my way but the unit didn't crumble much on steadfast. I reformed my lions from cube to a wider frontage to get my extra attack in.

My dragon princes wheeled to get into the other flank of this combat (given that I couldn't evade the flamers) and my archers had another go at them but failed.

In the centre I marched my big unit of archers forward, out of the charge arc of the GUO. I did similarly with my small unit which was closest to the RBT, trying to get enough distance from it to avoid the slingshot over-run, with my final unit performing a swift reform and backing away from the now toxic bolt thrower.

Over on the right/centre I marched my lone BSB towards my sisters to get him out of the beast's charge arc so sadly I lost a round of shooting here. I could have glugged the potion and tried to take it out, but it was a high risk strategy because if it passed enough regen/ward saves then that's goodbye BSB, so I took the conservative route. The rest of my shooting was pretty poor this turn and I only got a wound or two on it from sisters/RBT. With no musician I was stuck with the new horrors to my back, no shoot option and no stand and shoot. But at least I have ASF...they'll pay on the charge!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:30 pm 
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Daemons Turn 3:

So there are some predictable and some unpredictable charges this turn. The GUO charges the RBT, which despite a valiant single ASF attack, died horribly. However, rather than over-run, he combat reformed to face the lions in the rear. I'm not sure why he didn't over-run to get closer (or even into combat) - I think I got a bit lucky there.

Now an unexpected one - his 3 flamers charged the rear of my dragon princes. To be fair, rear charge, T4 and 5++ ward (I asked him afterwards and he was trying to stop them reaching the combat in the middle, I think so that his GUO would have time to reach it). Still, when the dust settled I survived intact and he had one left on one wound...so while the unit is now as good as dead, it achieved its objective.

Now some weird ones. He wanted to charge his plaguebearer block into the pheonix guard, now that the combat in the middle was over, but he was being blocked by the nurglings and beast. So the nurglings charged the sisters and I held, hoping to S&S against the beast, which then declared its charge against the BSB, who did Stand and Shoot. The beast must have taken a wound somewhere along the line because I downed him. This did give him the necessary space to charge the plaguebearers into the pheonix guard. Now I should have and would have fled, but because he'd rolled his dice already (successfully) I felt bad declaring this reaction after the event so I held. In competitive play I'd probably have argued the case but in this case I mentioned it but let it pass. Predictably the PG got slaughtered and the over-run took the plaguebearers to within inches of my right most sisters, the ones who'd been struggling with arc, forests and range all game.

Predictably the new unit of horrors charged the sisters in the rear. They killed two with ASF before losing two of their own and get run down on the pursuit, with the horrors having to halt an inch in front of the plaguebearers.

Finally, the skullcannon turned to face the dragonprinces and loosed another 10 grapeshot! We'd agreed that these would be flaming, although now I feel a bit bad about that coz I did push this point and now I'm not so sure. Anyway, this took out one dragon prince.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:42 pm 
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High Elf Turn 4:
Over on my left flank the combined might of my loremaster, white lions and lone (still surviving!) swordmaster finally finished off the horrors and all turned to face the GUO. Likewise my dragon princes put the final wound on the remaining flamer and reformed to face.

But critically, my three archer units all opened up at close range on the GUO and managed to get a combined 5 wounds through his ward save. That's 25 shots, hitting on 4's, wounding on 6's, and with a 5++ ward. I don't think I deserved that much luck but I got it. With the GUO on just one wound he's now actually really vulnerable to anything - stand and shoot, massed S3 attacks, anything!

I combo charged my BSB into the front of the remaining nurgling stand and an eagle into the flank and popped it (also putting my BSB safely out of the remaining beast's charge arc.

My dragon princes charged the skullcannon in the front and caused two wounds with one dying in return, but we stayed locked in combat.

Finally, my reaver knights declared a charge into the rear of the new horror unit which had destroyed a unit of sisters, and in order to escape the horde of plaguebearers, the sisters charged their flank, hoping to over-run out of the arc. I won the combat, popped the unit, and elected to hold with the reavers and over-run with the sisters. Although I only rolled a 3, that popped me out of the other side of my reaver unit. Thinking about it though, did we do this wrong? I know you flee through friendly models, but can you pursue through them or do you stop 1" when you hit them? If you over-run with both units you basically have to fudge things, but what happens if you just over-run with one? I didn't want to over-run with the reavers because that'd take them straight forward into the plaguebearers! I had a 10" flee to not run off the board and a 2" lead on them so I thought I'd risk the flee next turn rather than the certain destruction if I held.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:57 pm 
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Daemon Turn 4:
At this stage he's not got a lot left on the board. There's the severely wounded GUO who's essentially surrounded by juicy, squishy elf targets (any one of which could finish him off), a lone beast, the skullcannon in combat with my knights in his DZ on my right flank, and the big nurgle block which is now down in my right hand DZ.

His beast is march blocked by the eagle/BSB so heads off towards the big archer block's flank.

The skullcannon and dragonprinces continue to tickle eachother, possibly taking wounds, but neither unit dying or breaking.

The big nurgle block charges my reavers, I flee as planned, flee off the board, but his roll is high enough to catch me. We played this that he catches me off the board, but thinking about it now, I think maybe this should be a failed charge? Anyway, the way we did it they were off the board and could charge next turn when they come back on, which benefits me I think (although they're safe from shooting for a turn).

So now we're down to the crucial fight - the GUO...

He decides not to risk S&S and instead to charge the white lions unit. With his sword of +D3I etc he'd be striking at least simultaneously, and would get hit on 5's, wounded on 5's and then have a 5++ ward. Vs a unit of 8 with champion that's 3 hits, 1 wound, and 33% chance to save it...so a brave move!

He then casts a toughness de-buff which I let through on the basis that he's S high already, and then IFs a toughness or die vortex through the whole unit and out through my loremaster, the final (super resiliant) sword master and off the table. Just two white lions survive this, but luckily my loremaster and swordmaster (he da man!) pass their tests. He rolls a 6 on the miscast table: small pieplate at S10. He rolls vs my lions, kills one and rolls a 1, so the unit lives! I then roll to wound him, get it, and it all hinges on his ward save..........which he...........fails!

Boom - in a spray of ectoplasmic gunk the Great Unclean One is no more! That's a 650 point swing right there. Afterwards he said he shouldn't have taken him out of the unit, but that given that I have no cannons, it looked like it'd be a more fun game if he did. I don't know that he's right here - while it was more fun and just having a massive bunker chasing MSU points is a waste, I think the mistake was not over-running, which might have saved him from all that bowfire, or put him inside the S&S range meaning that he wouldn't have to fight lions!

That did however cause a panic check on the lions which sadly they (he) failed. Thus began his long run towards the board edge, which he never quite reached. He did however run through a venom thicket, thus invoking the Forest Strider rule on infantry for the first time ever! And to add insult to injury, Sam made me roll it just to see what I'd have got, and I rolled a 1, so Forest Strider FTW - who would have thought 8) ?!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:01 pm 
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High Elf Turn 5:

So now there's just the big nurgle block off the table, a lone beast and the skullcannon.

I move my eagles towards where the nurgle block will come on to force it to failed charge, I move my remaining sisters into short range (away from where the block will come in), I hold my BSB who is in short range of the beast anyway, and I shuffle with my archers to try to get as many shots in as possible (and to get back out of S&S range). My shooting is appaling and only clips a wound or two off, and I think I failed concentration here so I couldn't force the issue with magic missiles (now available again post-combat). But I figure his only viable charge is against archers, which will S&S, have 3 ranks of ASF and will be steadfast. They might not kill it but they'll hold it there.

In combat the cannon and the knights continue to grind away against eachother. And that's it...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:21 pm 
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Daemon Turn 5:

Beast charges the archer but S&S pings a wound off and ASF takes the last one - the beast is dead.

Our chariot/cavalry pillowfight continues and the big block returns to the table.


Conclusion
We called it there because, in honesty, we'd lost track of how many turns it had been. Had there been a 6th round I'd have moved my eagles and everything else out of the way to avoid any risk of being charged and one of us would have potentially gained 135-175 points from the combat in the corner, which wouldn't have radically changed the score.

In the end I won by around 1,000pts, which is pretty solid and I'm chuffed with that.

He'd lost flamers, horrors and herald, one skullcannon, nurglings, 3 beasts and a GUO. I'd lost both units of reavers, two units of 5 swordmasters, one unit of lions, one unit of sisters, my pheonix guard and my RBT.

No banner and a completely new list vs nurgle (epidimius no less) list. I think I played reasonably well bar the mistakes I know I made, but if anyone can spot more in the wall of text I'm keen to learn :mrgreen: ! I know I was lucky with dice (god-damn, my shooting was on fire!).

I think Sam made a couple of critical mistakes (the nurglings being the biggest, and not over-running with the GUO after taking out my RBT being the other). I think he was optimistic when he charged the flamers...and for that matter, the pink horrors, but those moves did what he wanted them to do I think (more or less). I'm not sure horrors were the best daemon he could have created from the double 6 winds of magic result but they were the models he had and he doesn't really like proxying.

I quite like this list. I'll keep the swordmasters in 3x5, they were great. I'm still debating loremaster vs AM. In principle I think merging the two smaller archer units would be better, although they worked well enough seperate this game. Both Nicene and Swordmaster have suggested switching discipline to the pheonix guard which I think I might do. There's also the eagle BSB option (switch a unit of swordmasters out), but I'll leave that for now, but I think it'd be fun!

Comments on the list and/or the game appreciated!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:26 pm 
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Nice battle! Shame there aren't diagrams or at least pictures to help illustrate the action. Battle Chronicler is a clunky monster but you will get faster with a bit of practice. I find it takes me about 1.5 hours currently to illustrate a battle with that thing, and about that long again to write the text for the report.


***
Some rules points, since you asked for them!

Reavers flee from charge off the table --> failed charge (with option to redirect, of course).

Deflect shots vs. Flamers --> isn't their shooting magical?

Skullcannon flaming grape shot --> I have no idea; haven't read the DoC book

Lions panic from vortex --> can't panic when engaged in combat. you check for panic when the casualties occur, which was before the miscast roll. Unless the GUO has some sort of panic-enemy-when-it-dies special rule?

Sisters overrunning through reavers --> no; they'll stop one inch away, which in this case probably means they'll stop immediately and actually back up one inch. It's hard to visualize without a diagram, however. When overrunning with multiple units, you choose the order and move them separately; if the second one bumps into the first then they just stop (I think)

daemonic instability/steadfast --> is that how Daemonic Instability works? I didn't think steadfast had any benefit for their army, but I could be wrong here.

GUO charges reavers --> I'm not sure what you mean here without a diagram, but you reference the "charging for dummies" thread so it sounds like you had some unsurety about the charging rules. If the reavers fled in such a way that the GUO could no longer reach them (intervening units/etc), then the charge would fail (with the possibility to redirect).


***
Other thoughts: congrats on the big win! S3 shooting is really effective against massive unarmored threats like the GUO, and your archers proved it this game (albeit with a really fortunate roll!)

When you were considering whether to accept a charge with your BSB from the Beast, one option might have been to hold still, fire your reaver bow, and then on your opponent's turn, if the thing is still alive and a charge looks imminent, chug your Potion at that time. You'll get the 3 str8 shots, then 3 str7 ASF attacks and should be pretty safe, I should think. Again, hard to visualize without the diagram.

On the charge rolling out of order: It's always tough when opponents do this, especially when its a friendly game! To help with this, our group set up a very strict meta-ruleset to help with such situations. Basically, treat any out-of-order dice roll as if it never happened, whether favorable or not. Since we follow this rule to the letter, no matter what, we are able to keep it fair and friendly. So you can make your Flee! move, then he rerolls the charge distance and you don't have to feel like a jerk. Same goes for forgetting to allocate attacks, forgetting +1 to hit or something. Especially important in, for example, flee-pursue. If they break your unit and you roll your flee distance before they decide which units to pursue with, just pick up the dice you rolled and forget the result.


***
Excited to hear more reports from you! Hope you and your opponent both had fun in this battle, since that's what is most important!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:03 pm 
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Nicene wrote:
Nice battle! Shame there aren't diagrams or at least pictures to help illustrate the action. Battle Chronicler is a clunky monster but you will get faster with a bit of practice. I find it takes me about 1.5 hours currently to illustrate a battle with that thing, and about that long again to write the text for the report.


Thanks for the comments. I was impressed how generally user friendly BC was but I was getting frustrated at not getting things right and it was just taking far too long in absolute terms and more time than I had available in relative terms too. But I'll have another go next time, no doubt it'll improve with practice.

Quote:
***
Some rules points, since you asked for them!

Reavers flee from charge off the table --> failed charge (with option to redirect, of course).


Damn, thought that might be the case, but only thought it as I was doing the right up. There wouldn't have been anything else to charge so it wouldn't have been able to redirect, except for...

Quote:
Sisters overrunning through reavers --> no; they'll stop one inch away, which in this case probably means they'll stop immediately and actually back up one inch. It's hard to visualize without a diagram, however. When overrunning with multiple units, you choose the order and move them separately; if the second one bumps into the first then they just stop (I think)


I think there's more fudge to it than that - I remember it being one of those confusing rules areas. But I'd be prepared to believe that my over-run couldn't have happened...

Quote:
Deflect shots vs. Flamers --> isn't their shooting magical?


Quite right, everything they have is. I've just looked up our deflect shots rule again and no magic shooting - that's what I get for not having used swordmasters in the new rules yet!

Quote:
Skullcannon flaming grape shot --> I have no idea; haven't read the DoC book


I've asked that one in rules section as it came up in (I think) Soliths bat reps too. As that seems to be open to interpretation I googled it and indeed confirmed that it is open to interpretation!

Quote:
Lions panic from vortex --> can't panic when engaged in combat. you check for panic when the casualties occur, which was before the miscast roll. Unless the GUO has some sort of panic-enemy-when-it-dies special rule?


Good catch - my one lone lion shouldn't have panicked! I think because it was a vortex cast in the magic phase and killing his unit and all bar one of mine via a miscast we were treating it as magic and forgot all about the fact that actually we were in combat!

Quote:
daemonic instability/steadfast --> is that how Daemonic Instability works? I didn't think steadfast had any benefit for their army, but I could be wrong here.


Yeah, just looked it up - steadfast means they're taking their instability roll unmodified.

Quote:
GUO charges reavers --> I'm not sure what you mean here without a diagram, but you reference the "charging for dummies" thread so it sounds like you had some unsurety about the charging rules. If the reavers fled in such a way that the GUO could no longer reach them (intervening units/etc), then the charge would fail (with the possibility to redirect).


No, it was a perfectly legit charge, but in the (recent) past I've been confused about where the charging unit ends up...does he rank up to the unit where it was before it fled, does it stop when it catches the fleeing unit, or does it go its full charge distance. Now that I know that you move the flee first, then if the charge isn't a fail, it moves its full amount. So rather than the GUO being a good distance from my backline he was now breathing heavily down my neck! Gotta say, I love that thread - flow charts make warhammer easier!

***
Quote:
Other thoughts: congrats on the big win! S3 shooting is really effective against massive unarmored threats like the GUO, and your archers proved it this game (albeit with a really fortunate roll!)

When you were considering whether to accept a charge with your BSB from the Beast, one option might have been to hold still, fire your reaver bow, and then on your opponent's turn, if the thing is still alive and a charge looks imminent, chug your Potion at that time. You'll get the 3 str8 shots, then 3 str7 ASF attacks and should be pretty safe, I should think. Again, hard to visualize without the diagram.


Yeah, I actually think daemons were quite a good match up for this list - really enjoyed the game and how it felt.

RE: BSB - I was just a bit nervous, especially without any unit to hide behind, that I could fluff my to hit rolls (or even the to wound ones) and that he could pass his regen/ward and then it's bye-bye BSB. I think this is the first game in ages where I consistently remembered to use the potion at the right time, but each time made a concious decision not to, and in the end I didn't need to! But yeah, if I were to do the brave thing and hold my ground, then doing it the way you suggest looks the most sensible.

Quote:
On the charge rolling out of order: It's always tough when opponents do this, especially when its a friendly game! To help with this, our group set up a very strict meta-ruleset to help with such situations. Basically, treat any out-of-order dice roll as if it never happened, whether favorable or not. Since we follow this rule to the letter, no matter what, we are able to keep it fair and friendly. So you can make your Flee! move, then he rerolls the charge distance and you don't have to feel like a jerk. Same goes for forgetting to allocate attacks, forgetting +1 to hit or something. Especially important in, for example, flee-pursue. If they break your unit and you roll your flee distance before they decide which units to pursue with, just pick up the dice you rolled and forget the result.


Yeah, it's just one of those things I guess. I didn't feel too bad - I still had loads of units and it did drag that big block off to the hard right, where I only had a unit of sisters left, so even if I did trade off 180pts of PG and had I lost the 70 of sisters, it's not a terrible trade to leave the rest of my army free to fight everything else on my terms I guess.

Quote:
Excited to hear more reports from you! Hope you and your opponent both had fun in this battle, since that's what is most important!


Man, it was great - loved it! And he was just delighted that I didn't have the banner :D

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:35 pm 
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Hi Ferny,

Congratulations on your first victory with MSU army! And thanks a lot for the report! You and Nicene are having a great discussion in your relevant topics and I really want to join in as soon as possible! Please, be patient and I hope I will be able to add a little to it too! :)

Just a quick answer to your question about links:

[url = viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35047&start=870 ] text [/url]

Without the spaces of course :)

I am very happy to hear you enjoyed your first time MSU experience! I hope we will see more of your reports! I know BC can be tough to master but I am happy to help. And as an exercise you can start making diagrams for the existing report without time pressure. Trust me, it adds enormously to the report for you and potential readers. I learned a lot from just looking at the maps when making the report. And very often I could not understand why I didn't see particular opportunities! #-o :lol:

Keep up the good work! =D>

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:15 pm 
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Great report and congratulations on the win!

Two thoughts on the Great Unclean one. How good would a boosted Shem's Burning Gaze be at hurting one? You'd get the extra D6 hits because it's a demon and the flaming will ignore any regen it has, but I have no idea if it's worth the increased chance of a miscast when using more dice.

Secondly: as a monster the Great Unclean One can't join units, so you should have had the option to shoot it from turn 1. :D

I'm looking forward to the next report!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:49 am 
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Ferny - great game and well done on the victory. Always glad to see more and more turn up over time.

Nicene wrote:
Nice battle! Shame there aren't diagrams or at least pictures to help illustrate the action. Battle Chronicler is a clunky monster but you will get faster with a bit of practice. I find it takes me about 1.5 hours currently to illustrate a battle with that thing, and about that long again to write the text for the report.


@Nicene - I'm curious as to if you're typing up the report text in battle chronicler itself or another program?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:54 am 
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I just type the report in the Ulthuan forum text field. I haven't experimented with the BC text feature.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:49 am 
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HI Ferny,

First of all my sincere apologies for such a late reply. I hope it will restart the conversation though so that we can also discuss various MSU options from the point of view of your approach too.

Before I start on the deployment I would like to begin with the army list of your opponent. This is where the plan starts too, after all!

Daemons of Chaos - Army List

First thing is that despite dominance of the Nurgle daemons, this army can potentially suffer from Realm of Chaos table too. Nothing you should count on but it pays off to remember that DoC player needs to take some risks in order to have a more varied army list. Of course, having MSU force means you may suffer from that table too. But there is nothing you can do to prevent that. I learned to treat it is some kind of random shooting phase and be aware that I may need to add more units to tackle particular unit to make sure I have enough tools for the job.

The army is led by the great unclean one. I have observed from my own games that I started assuming, like you in this game, that I will not be able to deal with certain threat and simply try to avoid it. It may be true sometimes or at least it may take too long to do so. However, I want to change that habit and come up with an idea of actually taking such target down anyway. Fighting against targets like TK Sphinxes thought me that these guys can fall down to multiple low strength attacks. He has "only" 5++ ward after all so if you were to focus shooting on him then you can score a few wounds. The it would be easier to destroy it in combat. Or your opponent may start moving it away from you so that he can be less of threat too. Yes, he can t-stomp your units but not before they hit him first (he has lower initiative) and he cannot t-stomp cavalry. Flank charge with the banner means he has to wound you 3 times to be even. With 5 attacks it may or may not happen and then he starts taking break tests which is always bad news for daemons unless they are skillful at rolling double 1's! So I think it may be difficult but reward is fantastic as you get many VP's for greater daemon and a general.

Plague bearers unit looks quite big. How many models did he have? Indeed, that regiment is the most difficult one to destroy and you assumed correctly that it needs to be diverted as long as you need to clear the field from other units. Because it is so big it really is a good idea to divert it and as it is relatively slow it will be even more beneficial to do it. Please, not that if you deployed your units 32.1" away from them, they would need 3 turns to march and still would not be able to make a charge. Half of the game they can do nothing and you can save your regiments to divert them later on! That Epidemius seems to be nasty character and it is not that easy to take him down while the number of wounds may start piling up and buffing all Nurgle daemons. Even more reason to avoid that regiment and try to kill other daemons quickly.

Beasts of Nurgle are nasty but when they are as single units then they are manageable. The good thing is that they are S4 so cavalry is naturally a good solution against them. They are relatively slow in terms of initiative so they can be hit quickly and a few arrows against them are always good idea. I think, if possible, I would focus the shooting at them first as they can mess up with your movement phase.

Nurglings can be annoying but they have that swarm rule meaning they will crumble faster. In fact, regiments such as archers can comfortably tie them up and start grinding them down. I would not waste arrows at them as combination of skirmish and ward saves may mean your shooting is wasted.

Flamers of Tzeentch are not as good as they used to be but they can still hurt small units. As other Tzeentch regiments, they are better dealt with in close combat. As either they are too numerous or they are skirmishers.

Horrors are good supportive spell casters and their magic missiles are often very annoying. Random number of hits, random strength and warpflame rule mean it is hard to predict how deadly they can be and thus cannot be really ignored when making priorities to dispel. But they will start falling down quickly in combat. Even a single unit of Dragon Princes can, given time, chew through them.

Last but not least, the cannons. Can be annoying as well but fortunately your characters and heavy cavalry are well protected. You can even expose the flanks of the DP's and "bait" your opponent with some flank shots! They are good in combat and against small units their impact hits can be an issue so not letting them charge the infantry is good idea.

This army is a tough opponent as it is hard to get points from it and even in dealing with support units you need to put some effort. It may take time so being decisive and protecting regiments from some dangerous charges can be the key. This army, however, is also slow. It either can move as fast as the fastest elements but risk being divided or as slow as plaguebearers giving more time for the enemy to react. In both cases it is good for HE as they can pick up individual targets and set up combined charges.

Deployment

Having so many units to deploy may be a problem, in particular at the beginning. However, there are a few thigs you could have done differently.

1. Place eagles behind the hill. There is no need for them to be exposed as targets for cannons turn 1 so that your opponents does not get easy points and does not cause dangerous panic tests.

2. Position the army a little bit further backwards, at least shooters and the center. The enemy has better odds at winning the first turn and as I have mentioned before, deploying at 32.1" away from Plaguebearers will render them useless for half a game. Of course the regiments such as Sisters may be positioned a little closer. But even they should be deployed around 29" away from the possible target in case you have the first turn so that they can move and shoot.

3. Position Archers closer to the center. I think one of the regiments could still find space on the hill but even if not they may be better placed closer to the middle of the deployment where they can have better chance to focus fire if you need to. Placing some combat troops in between is good as they can intercept some of the foe.

4. I would switch WL1 with WL2. I presume WL1 had banner of discipline. If they were positioned in the center as instead of WL2 more units can benefit from Ld10. Actually, I would place WL1 a little bit to the right of the hill to make room for more shooters there.

5. I would probably switch PG and one unit of Archers and maybe add one unit of Swordmasters there too. In that case you have 3 combat units on each flank that can operate together. Move one as a bait, second as an anvil and then cavalry as a counter to any regiment that would go their way. Such teams can also move very aggressively forward and having two flanks like that may confuse the enemy further. With White Lions and Swordmasters still in the center (as well as bigger unit of Archers) you have som reserves to add quickly too.

The Game

It was a good move to stop your Reavers from vanguard but ... I would charge with both units then instead. Even if he had 1st turn he needs 8+ to charge you and then he is in trouble anyway as he exposes his flank to Swordmasters. The charge with Swordmasters alone is not that great because unlike Reavers, who also hit on 4+, they cannot re-roll to hit rolls. This tied combat also shows why it is good to have musicians sometimes :) Although it may be too much for these small units of course.

Also, your friend has to take first turn. Whoever wins automatically has turn 1 and cannot decide to go second. At least in the Battle Line scenario.

T1 - good moves on flanks but it seems you need a little practice with open LoS for the shooters. Another reason why I said it would have been better to have archers closer to the center and both flanks with 3 combat units. No need to slow down and no way of blocking LoS. It also takes some practice to set the angles right. Always measure first! That will help to avoid blind spots or being out of range! Even if you think all is good :)

T2 - good move with DP to threaten horrors, always great to put some pressure on the enemy. Well done with the Spirit Leach, that is great to remove the very dangerous cannon. And it also shows that the army can deal with some units in multiple ways. No worries about the trap not being used at all!

Also, a very good and aggressive round for your opponent. You definitely need to practice rolling better for the flee move :)

T3 - Looks like you had to deal with a few sudden appearances among your lines so no wonder there was less shooting. It is really ok as saving points, moving out of danger and creating new options for yourself is way more important.

Sometimes enthusiasm gets a better part of any player. I think it should be ok to discuss with him such situation at least and try to come up with the compromise. It was very sporty behavior on your part so I hope your friend was well mannered and thanked you for that too!

Seems like DoC are now putting a lot of pressure on your small units!

T4 - Good performance against horrors. They are not great in combat but they can stall the advance nonetheless. Also, fantastic performance by your archers! I was writing the army list analysis without checking the details of your report yet so I was very happy to see that you did use that approach! =D>

I am not sure if other member has already answered your question but Sisters should have stopped b1" away from reavers.

I would also say it was a failed charge for Plague Bearers but I would need to check the rule book to be sure.

Wow! That was really spectacular end to GUO who was kind enough to inflict the last wound all by itself! :D Btw, I don't think he can join the unit as it is a Monster type of a unit and Monsters are not allowed to do so.

T5 - mopping up really. It was very inspiring to see all but one big block left and the lucky cannon in combat too. It is really great achievement considering that it was the first game for you with such army. Well done! =D>

I hope I didn't repeat too many comments but I didn't want to read what others have written in order to remain relatively unbiased. I do hope that you will practice with BC because it is always great to have more pictures. However, your text description was good and I could still follow the flow of battle, so thanks!

Your friend may learn soon that he needs to keep his units together to be able to fight against MSU. Be prepared!

Once again, apologies for the late reply, thanks for the report and looking forward to reading more about your MSU experiences!

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:24 pm 
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Thanks for the comments guys and apologies from me for not having responded at the time!

Solith - yeah, boosted Shems would I think do 2D6 S6 hits so I guess around 2W or so on average. I've generally been a bit cavalier with casting dice but I think it's worth the shot here - to take it down you really need to sneak wounds past where you can. Of course, that's gonna be a high priority dispel and in this game he was (wrongly) mostly tucked safely in the unit, but it's definitely a threat to him.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Plague bearers unit looks quite big. How many models did he have?...


...about 35! I reckon potentially a combined charge on all fronts could do damage (especially if I assassinate epi), but it took me all 5 turns we played to mop up the rest and luckily managed to contain this threat, and given that I had such a lead and the combat elements of my army were so depleted I don't think I would have risked a late 6th turn charge even if I had the opportunity.

Quote:
Beasts of Nurgle are nasty but when they are as single units then they are manageable. The good thing is that they are S4 so cavalry is naturally a good solution against them. They are relatively slow in terms of initiative so they can be hit quickly and a few arrows against them are always good idea. I think, if possible, I would focus the shooting at them first as they can mess up with your movement phase.


Yeah, I was lucky not to be facing units. I'd still be wary about cavalry: bear in mind that as I don't have helms it basically means dragon princes. Assuming I don't kill it on the charge (expect 1-2W, maybe 2 given flaming) I can expect a random number of attacks back and it isn't inconceivable that I might lose 1 a knight, even without stomp. As it has no flanks I'd get the charge bonus and that's it...and after that no lances and my mobile knights are locked in combat grind. That said, I did have them on that flank to do exactly that on ideally a weakened beast which might go down on the charge, and I had the PG there to work in tandem on this mission, and hopefully I could concentrate my force quicker than he his...though as it turns out neither unit engaged the beasts and I managed to deal with them in shooting.

Quote:
Deployment

Having so many units to deploy may be a problem, in particular at the beginning. However, there are a few thigs you could have done differently.

1. Place eagles behind the hill. There is no need for them to be exposed as targets for cannons turn 1 so that your opponents does not get easy points and does not cause dangerous panic tests.


In principle agreed - I wasn't really thinking that hard when I put them down, I was just placing fast/flyers centrally where they could redeploy from quickly to wherever required. That said, I don't think with TLoS the hill would have blocked LoS :(.

Quote:
2. Position the army a little bit further backwards, at least shooters and the center. The enemy has better odds at winning the first turn and as I have mentioned before, deploying at 32.1" away from Plaguebearers will render them useless for half a game. Of course the regiments such as Sisters may be positioned a little closer. But even they should be deployed around 29" away from the possible target in case you have the first turn so that they can move and shoot.


Why would you move and fire T1 with sisters rather than deploy on the line to stand still and shoot regardless of who gets first turn (or even move back 2" and fire if retreating is important)?

Quote:
3. Position Archers closer to the center. I think one of the regiments could still find space on the hill but even if not they may be better placed closer to the middle of the deployment where they can have better chance to focus fire if you need to. Placing some combat troops in between is good as they can intercept some of the foe.

4. I would switch WL1 with WL2. I presume WL1 had banner of discipline. If they were positioned in the center as instead of WL2 more units can benefit from Ld10. Actually, I would place WL1 a little bit to the right of the hill to make room for more shooters there.

5. I would probably switch PG and one unit of Archers and maybe add one unit of Swordmasters there too. In that case you have 3 combat units on each flank that can operate together. Move one as a bait, second as an anvil and then cavalry as a counter to any regiment that would go their way. Such teams can also move very aggressively forward and having two flanks like that may confuse the enemy further. With White Lions and Swordmasters still in the center (as well as bigger unit of Archers) you have som reserves to add quickly too.


Now that you mention it, my shooting plan would have done better focussing all fire on my right flank and the fast, flanking manouver would have worked best on the left. Maybe instead of putting vulnerable to shooting swordmasters left flank I should have put PG or even the second DP there and really wrapped that flank up quicker. There was still the chariot to deal with but it would only be a single major threat unit then. Meanwhile with archers centre and flank those beasts should have dropped quicker...mind you, it would also have put more of my points closer to his big nasty unit, and as it turns out my spread across the board probably saved my bacon. I like your idea about the tripling up of units for hammer, anvil and back-up - that's another element I need to give more careful thought to with this list style especially.

WL1 I chose to be left of centre so that I could bring magic to bear on the left where I felt it was needed most. In principle I think that's fine (even better if I'd dealt with the left faster as your suggestions would assist with), as it's still fairly central and could swing back as required.

Quote:
The Game

It was a good move to stop your Reavers from vanguard but ... I would charge with both units then instead. Even if he had 1st turn he needs 8+ to charge you and then he is in trouble anyway as he exposes his flank to Swordmasters. The charge with Swordmasters alone is not that great because unlike Reavers, who also hit on 4+, they cannot re-roll to hit rolls. This tied combat also shows why it is good to have musicians sometimes :) Although it may be too much for these small units of course.


I disagree here - I think he made a bad miscalculation which I was able to exploit here (albeit it was compounded by him moving his horde up to tight to this combat). I calculated that swordmasters would win (just) or draw the combat but wouldn't wipe the nurglings out, and I could always throw more units in if I wanted to drag the combat out a bit more (as I did). Had I charged with just one unit of reavers I think I would have lost and possibly fled, if I charged with both then I'd have exposed edges of units which could then be charged by the big block T2, drawing them closer, as well as tying up two key redirectors (especially given how survivable they should be with his limited shooting and magic). And I'd be safe from a T1 charge because they scouted :).

Quote:
Also, your friend has to take first turn. Whoever wins automatically has turn 1 and cannot decide to go second. At least in the Battle Line scenario.


Good catch.

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Sometimes enthusiasm gets a better part of any player. I think it should be ok to discuss with him such situation at least and try to come up with the compromise. It was very sporty behavior on your part so I hope your friend was well mannered and thanked you for that too!


I'm sure would be fine with it, but I'm a slow player at the best of times and with lots of units, lots of measuring, playing an avoidance game, and generally having a first time with this style I was happy enough to not make an issue of it and earn back some of the patience it takes to play against me. And when you're playing a pleasant person I find I'm more inclined to be friendly like this :). Besides which I was enjoying the game and how it was panning out and while I should probably have done better with a flee, it did really open up the board so while it was a bad move to hold it maybe wasn't disastrous.

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I am not sure if other member has already answered your question but Sisters should have stopped b1" away from reavers.

I would also say it was a failed charge for Plague Bearers but I would need to check the rule book to be sure.

Wow! That was really spectacular end to GUO who was kind enough to inflict the last wound all by itself! :D Btw, I don't think he can join the unit as it is a Monster type of a unit and Monsters are not allowed to do so.


Yeah, I think I cheated to over-run with the sisters through my reavers, meaning they would have been munched by the plaguebearers next turn...but then I guess that's not a terrible trade to really pull them completely out of the game.

I now think that given that my reavers would no longer be a viable target they must logically fail the charge, which actually would have been a lot better for them (so my apologies would be due here) as he could have swift reformed in his turn to face my main force now on the left flank and support his GUO, as well as threatening my BSB etc.

And yeah, really lucky with the GUO, but I'm less scared of them now and knowing (now) that they can't join units definitely makes them more vulnerable. Such a novelty to fight a big choas gribbly which doesn't have wings!

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T5 - mopping up really. It was very inspiring to see all but one big block left and the lucky cannon in combat too. It is really great achievement considering that it was the first game for you with such army. Well done! =D>

I hope I didn't repeat too many comments but I didn't want to read what others have written in order to remain relatively unbiased. I do hope that you will practice with BC because it is always great to have more pictures. However, your text description was good and I could still follow the flow of battle, so thanks!

Your friend may learn soon that he needs to keep his units together to be able to fight against MSU. Be prepared!

Once again, apologies for the late reply, thanks for the report and looking forward to reading more about your MSU experiences!

Cheers!


Yeah, I was really pleased with how it played and played out. It's a really fun list to play with - like the flying circus I toyed with (and will return to) it requires a lot of careful measuring and clever target selection. I was starting to get bored with my 'optimised' PG/WL list so this is a great way to play a new army without needing to buy a new book or new models! I think I'll take MSU to my next tourney so there'll definitely be more from this before then.

I also love the list building side of the game (bet you couldn't tell 8) ) so I'm loving the theory hammer that Ulthuan offers, as well as benefiting from advice from fellow HE and/or MSU generals with more experience than me (and fresh eyes!).

I'll try taking photos of the next game (blurry ones are traditional for MSU, right :lol: ) and I'll probably at least use BC for the deployment picture as I think that made the world of difference for following things. Looking forward to more comments and conversations :).

I've got another 2,400 game tomorrow night, probably against VC, probably against a bus. Before game plan is basically redirect the bus and kill the rest, being wary that the characters could always charge out of the bus against such small units!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:55 pm 
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Here's my new list:

Lords - 330
Laraib, Loremaster: BoH, Crown, Dragonhelm, Ring of Fury - 330

Heroes - 155
Corvus Bennetti, Noble BSB, Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Reaver Bow, PoS - 155

Core - 605
5 silver helms with shields – 115
25 Archers - FC - 280
5 reavers, spear and bow, mus - 105
5 reavers, spear and bow, mus - 105

Special - 995:
5 Dragon Princes, banner, flame - 165
5 Dragon Princes - 145
5 Sword Masters - 65
5 Sword Masters - 65
5 Sword Masters - 65
10 Phoenix Guard, FC, discipline - 195
10 White Lions, FC, gleaming pennant- 165
10 White Lions - 130

Rare: 310
2xEagles - 100
RBT - 70
5x Sisters - 70
5x Sisters - 70

Total: 2,395
Model Count: 110
Banners: 5 (inc BSB)
18 drops (inc characters)


Basically I've just switched a unit of 10 archers+banner to a unit of helms, but as that pushed me up 5pts (which can't be trimmed from core) I therefore had to trim elsewhere. I'm pleased that this partially matches Swordmaster's move towards heavy cav in core as the more parallels the more I can pinch from him 8). I always used them with my other lists and I like what they bring to the party and I know how to use them (I think).

As a consequence this single unit then leaves me with 25 archers in core (assuming FC, which I want). I've merged two units into one so that they both benefit from the FC, but also this should be easier to deploy, easier to deal with in terms of LoS, offers a decent bunker against some armies, keeps me above (I hope) what I think might be threshold shooting, and also gives me a decent combat unit for breaking steadfast or dealing with weaker stuff. Also, while I don't have any spells to boost shooting, between Life and Beasts I can certainly boost their combat capabilities if required.

I also switched TOTS on the loremaster to the Ring to act as a back-up caster, which cost me another 10 points. I've funded these two changes (this and helms) from special, losing the champ from the flaming princes and the bannerman from the lions. I've still got one 'fully-kitted' lions unit and I've shifted Discipline across to the PG who will make a good bunker option (and will benefit even more from the ring). So small changes by and large but I think they edge the list in a good direction.

I do hate not having ToTS in the list - I think you almost need it to take on disklords, blender vamps, DPs...not a lot of things, but where it comes up I think it's important...but I don't really want Laraib in combat with those things, so I'll just have to do without.

The list is now very tight on points - everything except the archers is at minimum size and there's very little command to shave from. I could run characters with less equipment but I think they both have a good range of utility and protection as they are. I think now, assuming this basic list works for me (it looks good on paper IMO), the only obvious changes would be to drop a unit of swordmasters to fund command models for the rest of the elites. Similarly, in principle I could shave archers off for core command models, but at the moment I don't think it's that worth it, but we'll see.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:09 pm 
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I like your Loremaster build! A way to get some protection from magic snipes along with some combat protection.

I think I will adjust that to: Tormentor Sword, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown, Book of Hoeth, and Ring of Fury = 100
My old build was: Tormentor Sword, Shield of the Merwyrm, Book of Hoeth, Ring of Fury = 100

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:33 pm 
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I'd quite like the MR1 banner with the PG to give them 3++ vs magic and 2++ if I get the ring off, but I think the option of Ld10 bubble and a 4++ basic is probably better, given that they're not an optimal MM target in this list. But that would then give him a possible 5++ ward too which would be nice.

I think our loremaster builds are all playing around in the same area: maximum possible protection with limited points, all of which is never going to be *that* much.

Mine has 2++ vs flaming and 4+AS with essentially 4W. Yours had essentially 4+/4++ and 3W, which might actually be better? Vs 3+ and 4W? I dunno, much of a muchness probably - have you tried math-hammering it? It's difficult because, for example on my build, the 'extra wound' is wasted if they have flaming attacks anyway, which is hard to factor in to the equation.

Do you take the tormentor sword for the ASF or to give you access to the shields? I decided to avoid shields and the magic weapon tax they bring (even if it is just 5pts extra) and be happy with the extra pip and flaming from the dragonhelm, and the 3 non-re-rollable S6 attacks.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:46 pm 
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Well, originally to access the parry from Merwyrm. But then with only 10 points and a choice between dragonhelm and ench.shield+tormentor, I think I might prefer the 3+ armor save and sacrifice the S6 attacks.

I suppose Merwyrm is the best at close-combat defense. Ench. Shield brings a solid close-combat defense against low-str attacks, plus one 2++. Dragonhelm lets you keep your S6 but is the least defensive. S6 attacks complement the PG very well, so they are hard to pass up. Also, this is the fluffiest build to me (and therefore appealing). Finally, I modeled my Loremaster with a Great Weapon.

I think, with the PG, I might need the Loremaster to tank up something really scary for a couple rounds, which is why I originally opted for Merwyrm. The complete lack of snipe defense is troubling, however.

So basically I'm torn between four builds:

1. Book of Hoeth, Ring of Fury, Dragonhelm, Golden Crown
2. Book of Hoeth, Ring of Fury, Tormentor Sword, Enchanted Shield, Crown of Atrazar
3. Book of Hoeth, Ring of Fury, Tormentor Sword, Merwyrm Shield
4. Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation a distant fourth

Do you see any other good options?

edit: it occurs to me that builds 1 and 2 synergize better with Earthblood (especially build 1)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:14 am 
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In theory for a combat loremaster I don't think 2+AS can be bettered, given that he can cast 5++ regen - this works well if he's in lions or swordmasters (doubly so if it's not MSU and they have the banner!), but is wasted on phoenix guard, which I have been convinced are the better bodyguard unit in MSU, at least as an option (I still have the FC gleaming lions as another good option). So in MSU we're looking at something different, especially if we want the ring as a back-up caster to free up points from the Lv1/2 caddy.

Curu's thread has an interesting discussion on loremaster kit and IMO the best option which is presenting itself there is the merwyrm shield given point restrictions in his lord slot, and if we're looking to include to include the ring (and possibly crown) then we end up with similar restrictions on his allowance.

I think we've pretty much got the bases covered with the suggestions you've listed: BoH+Ring only leaves 20pts to play with. If I'm honest, the crown on mine is a bit of a carry-over from my AM which I run light (BoH, crown). If you're planning to keep your general out of combat then you don't need to spend 45pts on a 4++...but it seems rude not to spend 10 on an extra wound, just to be safe ;). And then I added the dragonhelm, because this being a LM not an AM already has 5+AS so bumping it to 4+ isn't bad and 2++ vs fire is a decent bonus...but now I've spent 20pts on protection, and for that I could get a cheap 4++ pseudo-ward. But actually, if you're going with the Merwyrm shield then the crown becomes (slightly) superfluous, and you might as well pick up the tormentor sword for ethereals and just generally to not be fighting kung-fu style. And I think Merwyrm probably is best. The alternative you've presented, enchanted (or charmed in my case, given the BSB) and crown isn't as strong IMO as Merwyrm, although may be better than dragonhelm. FWIW, I don't really worry about the loss of S6 loremaster attacks, I just view the tormentor sword as a Merwyrm tax - but it's still a bargain! So actually...I think I might switch to your build after all that :lol: .

I tend to go with the enchanted shield on my BSB - I trust LoS to save me from cannons and consider dragon armour and enchanted shield to be the best protection he can get (with merwyrm as a viable alternative). This also fits with the reaver/PoS points allowance. As you're mounted you get the extra pip of protection but are also more of a target so potentially the charmed shield is a better option for Carmen, but it's worth bearing in mind in case we select an item twice.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:40 am 
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Battle #2: WoC

Characters:
Laraib, Loremaster: BoH, Shield of Myrwyrm, Warrior Bane, Ring of Fury
Corvus Bennetti, Noble BSB, Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Reaver Bow, PoS - 155

Core:
5 silver helms with shields
25 Archers - FC
5 reavers, spear and bow, mus
5 reavers, spear and bow, mus

Special:
5 Dragon Princes, banner, flame
5 Dragon Princes
5 Sword Masters
5 Sword Masters
5 Sword Masters
10 Phoenix Guard, FC, discipline
10 White Lions, FC, gleaming pennant
10 White Lions

Rare:
2xEagles
RBT
5x Sisters
5x Sisters


Warriors of Chaos:
Nurgle DP of Death, 2+AS, 5+WS, 2++vs Fire, Sword of Striking, charmed shield, extra spell and channels on 5, fly, flaming breath...
Tzeench BSB, 2+AS/3++WS (re-roll 1's), Great Weapon, 2++ vs fire (re-roll 1's)
Throgg
7x Trolls
2x Nurgle Gorebeast chariots
3x Skullcrushers with banner
18x Nurgle Warriors, halberd (no shield), FC
5x Chaos Warhounds
Hellcannon

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Last edited by Ferny on Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:06 am 
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Alex is one of the best players at the club and it's been a long time since I've beaten him, so it's always fun to try. We played about a month ago, Alex with a similar list and me with my 'old reliable' PG/WL list and over about 4 turns he grounded me down badly. From the start this feels to me like a difficult list to beat and doubly so with MSU.

Two flying and almost unkillable flying characters can choose where to strike and then wipe out a unit at a time. They also make fleeing/double-fleeing with reavers and eagles harder to pull off effectively because with their threat range they can force them to flee further and then re-direct. I don't really feel I have an answer to these guys. Maybe flank+rear charges on the BSB to kill him with res and break? Alex was saying they're vulnerable to massed bowfire (he is still just 2W afterall)...but I was doing some math-hammer in my head and I came up with an obscenely high amount of shots to actually pull this off - obviously there's variance and for the Chaos player that's the risk, but statistically this guy is a beast. Likewise the DP - very hard to address. To be honest, I'm not sure my list even has the tools to control their movement, let alone to kill them - this might be something I need to try to address in list design. I'm open to suggestions on what I might have which could touch them or what I could get?

Nurgle Gorebeast chariots...they're almost impervious to shooting so I probably won't waste any effort on this. Spirit leach could work (after my spectacular success last week on the skullcannon!), but the range is tight. Absorbing a charge on stubborn lions or warded PG might hold them for a flank counter-charge, but I'd lose a lot from my small units. Flank (and rear) charges would be ideal if I get the opportunity. I've struggled with one before and this week he's brought 2 to the table :shock: !

Skullcrushers: I've yet to have them fail a frenzy charge that they wouldn't have taken anyway, but if I can feed them something for the over-run and counter-charge them (ideally flank) then they're handle-able. I've dealt with them before, albeit with a lot of effort. Last time I fought Alex he had 2 units which took an awful lot of managing (and was only possible because he sent in his flyers early). One should be fine...famous last words #-o :lol: .

Throgg and his trolls...I think High Elves (and Death/PSun, which I don't have) are a strong counter to these guys. Flaming S4 BS5 shots will kill some, opening them up to basic bowfire and RBT. Couple that with flaming DPs and this at least should be points in the bag so long as I'm careful. Last time we fought Alex brought 18 to the table! I don't think that's great - they're too easily countered by flaming war machines and templates, PSun etc, but actually, in these reduced numbers they're really pretty manageable.

Nurgle Warriors...Slow but notoriously difficult to shift. Combo charges including DPs and SM's for re-rolls and 4's to hit might do the trick, especially with lions for stubborn goodness in case I lose and bounce! Only 18 so they should in theory be manageable. Also no shields so vulnerable to shooting!

Warhounds - the only chaff. Between reavers, eagles, helms and shooting they shouldn't be around long.

Hellcannon - Can basically delete a unit/turn and there's not a lot I can do about it other than be in combat...

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