HE MSU at Australian Masters - Summary - updated 02.01

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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HE MSU at Australian Masters - Summary - updated 02.01

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

As some of you may know I qualified to this year Australian Masters. This is a unique event that you can participate in only via invitation. The criteria to qualify were as follows:

* 2012 Masters’ winner

* Top ranked players from (NSW, VIC, QLD, WA, TAS, ACT, SA)

* Top 10 ranked players in the Australian warhammer fantasy rankings who have not already received an invite.

* 11-20 ranked players in the Australian warhammer fantasy rankings (but only to fill total of 16 spots available).

If you want to read about it in more details here is the link to the appropriate topic: Australian Masters - Criteria and Players Pack

I was very happy to qualify as a best ACT player and at the time 7th in the country, according to Rankings HQ. :)

Another unique thing at the Masters is that 2 out of 6 games are played with army swap. Each player randomly pick somebody's else army and plays against the next player in current standings (players are still matched up based on their current result). It is a very interesting idea. It is based on the assumption that a Master player should be able to adapt to any army and play well with it even if he it is not his preferred army choice for other games/tournaments. Since there are 2 games like that it can have a significant impact on the overall result.

This year the armies were composed with the use of the Swedish Comp and had to be in the 9-14 brackets. What is more, there was a battle comp used in the tournament. Each point of difference in the comp was multiplied by 200 and added to the result of the player with softer list. That inspired people to design army lists that got good scores in the comp but at the same time had some powerful choices regardless.

Here is the link to the topic with army lists that were sent by the invited players: Australian Masters - Army Lists

The event was of course commented by many players (as you can see in the army list topic) and two podcasts were dedicated to the army lists analysis and predictions (The Dwellers Bellow from Melbourne and Watchtower from Sydney).

Here, I am going to report on my own games and experiences from that fantastic event. If you are interested in checking the coverage with some pictures, here is the link to the relevant topic: Australian Masters - Coverage & Results

I decided to take the following army list to the event:

Outcasts - Army List

Larry the Loremaster - level 2, Shield of the Merwyrm, Golden Crown, Earthing Rod, Sword of Might - 300
Bob the Battle Standard Bearer - Dragon Armour, Halberd, Charmed Shield, Potion of Strength, Reaver Bow - 157

15 Archers - Full Command - 180
15 Sea Guard - Full Command - 210
5 Ellyrian Reavers - Spears, Bows, Musician - 105
5 Ellyrian Reavers - Spears, Bows, Musician - 105

5 Dragon Princes - Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 185
5 Dragon Princes - Full Command - 165
12 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Musician - 176
12 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Musician - 176
10 White Lions - Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 165
10 White Lions - Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 160

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
Great Eagle - 50
Great Eagle - 50
5 Sisters of Avelorn - 70
5 Sisters of Avelorn - 70

I wanted to achieve the following:

1. Test HE MSU against tough armies in all my games.

It goes without saying that MSU style is rather unforgiving. It is also believed that it cannot compete against certain armies, in particular these that have big flying monsters. Seeing as there are quite a few there I wanted to test the army and collect valuable experience. I believe that MSU still can be a very good army to play against any opponent. The best way to find out is by playing games!

I was also very curious how other players will do with my force.

2. Test my own skills in highly competitive environment

In a regular tournament I can count on an element of surprise when I face players who have never fought MSU army before. I could not use that advantage here. All players are very experienced (otherwise they would not play in that event). On top of that I might have played against players whom I met before or that simply know my style of play anyway. It was a totally different type of a challenge and I was really eager to test my mantle!

Basically, if you want to improve you need to constantly challenge yourself and play against better players than yourself. :) Having played with MSU HE only for last 2 years I was also curious if I can play a decent game with whatever army I am about to pick.

3. Experience Australian WHFB Spirit to the fullest!

Last but certainly not least is that unique approach Australian players have as a community. They play tough but fair. You can expect challenging games but as a whole, they will do their best to play as fair as possible. It is amazing attitude and something a lot of competitive players (my own countrymen including) should learn from them.

You can play on top tables, compete to be the best of the best but do it in style! I can tell you already that it was exactly how I expected. Well done, guys! Keep this attitude no matter what! =D>

As an usual teaser, here are a few pictures from all my games during that event! :)

Game 1 - Chris - High Elves

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MSU vs. Double Dragon!

Game 2 - Mick - Vampire Counts

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Thin blue line vs Undead Horde

Game 3 - Army Swap - Matt - Dwarves

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Still playing with HE :)

Game 4 - Army Swap - Simon - Lizardmen

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This time playing with Vampires

Game 5 - Sam - Warriors of Chaos

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Cacophonic Choir Karaoke!

Game 6 - Max - Empire

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Good old Empire led by very young Captain!

More to come hopefully soon!

Cheers!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:30 am, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Introduction

#2 Post by Galharen »

I'd really like to read those battle reports soon :)
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Introduction

#3 Post by Jimmy »

Come on mate, it's been 2 days since the masters and you don't have the reports finished as yet??? :lol:

Look forward to reading these mate when you have the time and once again hats off to you for being selected to attend, a true testament to your abilities as a Warhammer general and of course your in depth knowledge with your infamous MSU Outcasts.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Introduction

#4 Post by Hinge »

Oh goody, I can not wait.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Introduction

#5 Post by Eltherion »

Looking forward to the Batreps well done on your placing.

Chris Cousins double dragon list seemed to fall down by only having the 4+ WS on his General.


Just a comment
MSU vs. Monsters

I feel one of the answers to Monsters is our cavalry Silver Helms & DP's and here is my reasoning.

1. They can't be stomped
2. They have a long charge distance only 1" shorter than flying monsters
3. High Strength attacks on the charge
4. Combining this with our strong shooting and some Magic support and we deal with the monsters quite well
5. Another possability is tooling up a character to deal specifically with the high toughness monsters
Last edited by Eltherion on Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Introduction

#6 Post by Stormie »

I'm also looking forward to the reports. Eltherion, please edit out your spoilers, we don't need to know who or what was in the top 3. Let us have the suspense please, people who want to know the results can easily look them up!
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Introduction

#7 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

@ Galharen

Will do my best! :)

@ Jimmy

You are right! And I took Monday free of work too! :lol:

Thank you so much for the support! It really means a lot to me to know there are people like you who kept fingers crossed for me and who believe in my skills! You do me a great honour by that, Centurion! :)

@ Hinge

Will get there, also because I think I will have very interesting battles to report. They were quite different to what I have experienced so far and I must admit that you could see that you are playing against players of different calibre.

@ Eltherion

I wish I could have a clone to observe other games while I was playing. :) It was very interesting situation in that game you are referring to, Eltherion. Jammie, who played Brets, didn't prey and first turn he Amber Speared the Archmage. Second turn the dragon was dead too! Talk about unusual and interesting solutions :)

As to the Monsters and dealing with them then yes, heavy cavalry can pull the trick sometimes. In my particular case it is always a combination. A wound or two from magic, same from shooting and then finish it off with combat troops. Not bullet proof solution and definitely not so great against multiple monsters but these are my tools and I can use them well.

@ Stormie

In that case do not look at the Masters topic in the Fantasy section of the forum either :)

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Introduction

#8 Post by Tiny »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I wish I could have a clone to observe other games while I was playing. :)
Be careful what you wish... Or next time we just send you to the masters not for playing but for battle report dutys :lol:

I am very much looking forward to your reports...

I have to admit I am (at least a bit) glad that Adam Gooley with his Dwarves didn't do to well. Eventhough you didn't play Gooley I think you also played his armee list. Eager to see if you could get Simon HE to work too.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Introduction

#9 Post by Clockwork »

Is that a Nagaraythe themed High Elf list in game 3? Looks great!
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Introduction

#10 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

@ Tiny

Adam's army was both, difficult to play with and against. As to how I did with Simon's army against Adam's army, you just have to wait :)

@ Clockwork

I don't know if Simon wanted to theme his army. Not sure about Phoenix Guard in that region :)

Ok, let's start! At least some deployment and plans before the battle!

Game 1 - Chris - High Elves

The drawing for the first game was done during the recording of Watchtower podcast. People had time to bet who is going to win against whom in round 1. I had an honor to play against previous year winner, Chris. He decided to use the army list Aaron used in the ETC tournament. Here is the list:

High Elves - Army List

Archmage, Level 4, Moon Dragon, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll - 590 - Lore of Death
Dragonmage, Level 2, Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown - 410 - Lore of Fire
Noble, BSB, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Sword of Might - 170
9 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields - 237
6 Silver Helms, Musician, Shields - 148
20 Lothern Seaguard, Full Command - 260
6 Dragon Princes, Full Command, Banner of Swiftness, Starlance - 249
Bolt Thrower - 70
Bolt Thrower - 70
Bolt Thrower - 70
Bolt Thrower - 70
Great Eagle, Armour piercing - 55

This army had a comp score of 13.9 so only 0.1 point difference from mine. It is a very tough match up for me because the army has few elements that are very dangerous for MSU.

First - magic. Combination of Death and Fire (i.e. Fireball) can be very powerful. Imagine if you cast Doom and Darkness and then add a Fireball cast at the same target. There are also some spells that has to be dispelled and that makes choosing priorities in the magic phase more difficult. Add mobility of both wizards and it is really hard to avoid being spirit leached, for example.

Second - speed. This army outmatches mine in that department and only thanks to multiple units I have a chance to limit the mobility of such enemy. Big fliers are always a problem and here I have two. The good thing, however, is that both characters are relatively fragile so I didn't expect solo charges unless the unit is weakened or there are favorable circumstances. Which I wanted to deny.

Third - shooting. 4 bolt throwers are a force to be scared of. With their excellent range they were capable of focusing fire on a single target and eliminating it. They also were great at picking the weakened units that were just harmed by magic. On the other had they are not that expensive but might require a significant number of units to be sent against them. Both dragons also have breath attacks and that potentially can devastate any unit of mine, with the exception of Dragon Princes.

And last but not least - point denial units. Wizards might be fragile but even if you kill one then there is still a dragon. And while they are all worth a lot of points, until you get them there is nothing to gain. Similarly BSB and heavy cavalry are not that easy to get rid of. Simply because there are other elements of the enemy army that might be more dangerous at particular moment.

Each of these can be dealt with but unfortunately for me it was hard as they were not present alone but all together. So I could not use my speed to attack bolt throwers as it would have exposed me to the counter of the cavalry or dragons or both. I could not prevent all spells to be cast. Finally, setting up combined charges under the enemy fire and under constant threat of the dragons attack seems like mission impossible.

I discussed the issue with a few experienced players and thanks to their advice (thanks a lot for your words of wisdom, Hinge, Jimmy and Targ! :)) I decided to try something that might be called controlled aggressive approach :D

Basically, I decided to use terrain and relatively spread deployment to minimize the impact of the bolt throwers. I also wanted to use my greater number of deployment drops to see where the dragons and cavalry are so that I could pick the opposite flank to position my own characters. I was not sure if Chris would deploy on a flank though, so I also wanted to create a deployment that allowed me to hold one flank and approach with another, depending on where the dragons are. I really wanted to deny them a landing opportunity behind my back so I was willing to slow down the approach and suffer from shooting rather than allowing the wyrms to have a field day behind the lines.

Knowing that the magic will be an issue I wanted to use dispel dice to neglect spirit leach opportunities as a priority. I also wanted to use my won shooting as soon as any of the wizards was in line of sight. I reckoned that the archmage with only 4++ ward can fail some saves even from bow fire and that is why it is worthy shooting at him simply to stop him from casting spells. My own magic also can be useful in that. And if there is an opportunity to charge it and kill it, even more so!

I was also happy to commit to combat as I cannot be shot at there. On the other hand, letting enemy cavalry charge any of my elite infantry is a suicide so I wanted to avoid that unless the sacrifice would allow me to counter and destroy the unit of the enemy. I was happy with any unit for unit exchange as I have more of those.

Even with all the above I was definitely an underdog in that game and I was very curious if my plan is going to work and if I can pull out a good result. I was very eager to face up that challenge!

Deployment

Image
Deployment of the armies after vanguard

Image
Might of Caledor vs. Outcasts

Caledorian wizards had following spells:

Archmage - Spirit Leach, Soulblight, Soulblight, Doom & Darkness
Dragon Mage - Fireball, Flaming Sword of Ruin

Larry joined the Swordmasters to the West while Bob was with Swordmasters to the East of the lake.

Chris won the roll-off and his super fast force had an additional advantage of having a first turn!

High Elves - Turn 1

Image
Slow advance of the Caledorian forces

Image[/url]
Magic and Shooting are deadly

Caledorian forces moved slowly forward. Dragon Mage and Silver Helms moved back and towards the centre of their deployment zone to put more distance from the enemy cavalry.

Only the Archmage moved forward and boldly landed in the middle of the battle field, having only the forest as a protection. He mustered his powers and cast a spell against his counter part. In the battle of wills the Archmage won decisively. Only the magical golden crown that enemy Loremaster had saved him from death.

Battery of Bolt Throwers sang their deadly music and both units of Sisters in the enemy ranks ceased to exist.

Outcasts - Turn 1

Image
Easter flank advances

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Aiming at the dragon but ...

Outcasts moved forward but only on the Eastern flank. There was no rush to meet the enemy even under deadly fire. It was more important to keep cohesive battle line and keep the dragons in check.

All missile units together with the Loremaster aimed at the enemy Archmage and his dragon but all missiles were either not accurate enough, or deflected by the dragons thick hide and wizard's magical protection.

High Elves - Turn 2

Image
Caledorians keep the distance

Image
And batter their enemies with even more magic and shooting

Caledorians use their shooting and magic superiority again and don't rush for combat. The archmage again tries to force his opponent to meet him in the battle of wills on the magical plane but this time the Loremaster deflects the spell. That opens another opportunity and he and his unit are now shrouded in magic fog of doubts, doom and darkness. When the fireball hits them they are all disheartened and start to withdraw. Only at the very last moment they manage to regain a fraction of control and don't leave the battle field for good.

Bolt throwers and Sea Guard picked some targets and mainly enemy marines suffered from the shooting. They were stalwart defenders though and didn't move from their posts.

Outcasts - Turn 2

Image
The battle for the pass?

Image
Outcasts in the wide outflanking manoeuvre

Outcasts had to move more decisively now and entire Eastern flank turned towards the enemy. On the West reavers and eagle bolted out in hope to reach enemy artillery before they shoot them down.

Missile units again aimed at the Archmage and this time there were some wounds inflicted on the dragon.

High Elves - Turn 3

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Caledorians press forward

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First combat!

The dragons move further to the West. The Archmage flies over the hill and some heavy cavalry move in to support him in outflanking maneuver. This time magic does not do the usual damage but shooting is as deadly as always. Reavers on the West are destroyed and the only survivor panics. Great eagle is not spared either. The sea guard and Swordmasters suffer more casualties, making both units almost non existent.

On the East Silver Helms lower their lances and charge Dragon Princes but that knightly clash brings no casualties and Dragon Princes hold their ground.

Outcasts - Turn 3

Image
Counter charge!

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Death of the Archmage!

Dragon Princes spur their horses and slam into the flank of enemy knights. Only one survives that devastating charge and flees to safety. The impetus Dragon Princes fail to restrain and try to catch the enemy but have to hold before they clash with their own unit.

Larry was really angry. He barely survived that silly mind tricks of the enemy archmage. He managed to heal himself a little but he knew that as long as the enemy archmage lives he will be the target. He summoned his favorite spell - a Fireball! Let's show that arrogant Caledorians some power of the dragon breath!

With eyes blazing with hot fury, Larry started to channel the magical energy. Even his adversary was not strong enough to deflect the spell cast with such an irresistible force. But Larry was not content. He saw his enemy swaying in the saddle but wanted him dead. He started to channel more and more energy to the point where it was controllable. He didn't care. He was about to channel some more when he felt the pain in the back of his head and darkness claimed him.

One of the Swordmasters looked at the numb form of their general and two broken pieces of the magical wand that were thrown nearby. "So that how that safety rod works" - he thought. "Is he going to be ok?" he asked his regimental Blademaster. "Sure, he might not remember how to cast spells for a while though" answered more experienced warrior. "But better that than another dimensional cascade, I have had enough of trips to the Realms of Chaos!"


Seeing the enemy Archmage barely holding to the saddle, archers and bolt thrower crew all aimed at the enemy general and finally managed to threw him down to the ground. His mount took the lifeless form and disappeared to the safety of the nearby hill.

High Elves - Turn 4

Image
Cavalry approaches steadily

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And the shooting continues

The loss of the archmage took away a lot from the magical prowess of the Caledorian forces but they were still very dangerous foe. The regiments continued their steady approach and kept shooting.

In particular the effect of destruction of the Reavers on the East somehow panicked horses of the nearby knights and they had to withdraw to regain control over their terrified mounts.

Outcasts - Turn 4

Image
For the greater good!

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Time to return some favor with shooting

Decimated Swordmasters and Lions units moved to sell their lives in order to stop advancing enemy from hitting the more vulnerable targets behind them. Another unit of Lions attempted a very long charge but failed to reached their enemies in time.

Outcasts shooters aimed at the enemy knights and half of the heavy cavalry unit was destroyed.

High Elves - Turn 5

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Rage of the Dragon Mage!

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Charges! But only some hit home

Dragon Princes attempted to charge the enemy eagle claw but misjudged the distance. Heavy cavalry led by BSB quickly destroyed few of the enemy Lions. Finally, the Dragon Mage charged another unit of Lions and the ferocity of the attack broke even these stalwart warriors. The impetus of the attack carried him right into the flank of the enemy knights. Would his flaming sword be able to claim more enemy lives?

Outcasts - Turn 5

Image
Cavalry companions are late!

Image
But the shooting eliminates the enemy knights

Dragon Princes try to speed up but somehow they cannot reach the enemy in time. Their companions still hold though.

Bob decided to use his magical potion and his supernatural strength allows him to kill remaining 3 enemy knights all by himself. Inspired by this heroic display of the shooting skills the crew of the eagle claw loads a single bolt and shoots the enemy from the flank only to find out their missile broke in midair. (Edit: Nothing like rolling a 1 to wound :))

High Elves - Turn 6

Image
Dragon Mage in hot pursuit

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4 vs 1, eagle claws battle

Dragon Mage finally manages to break his enemies but is unable to catch fleeing knights. The battery of bolt throwers aims then at a lone enemy war machine and destroy it.

Outcasts - Turn 6

Image
Dragon Hunt!

This time Dragon Princes do not hesitate and attack. Dragon Mage dies and his dragon is mortally wounded. He is barely alive and tries to fly away but vengeful knights catch it in hot pursuit!

Both armies sustained some casualties and it seemed that Caledorians still claimed a victory. But only just!

After-battle Thoughts

After calculating the battle points we found out that it was 11-9 victory for Chris. A very good result for me as it was not an easy match up at all!

I was pleased with the general outcome as I managed to prevent dragons to fly over and sit behind my lines. Then they would be able to pick up the fights and destroy my small units. Especially with the help of heavy cavalry. There are a few things I could have done differently though.

1. Position Loremaster further to the right so that he is not the target of the Spirit Leach first turn. It is hard to achieve as with 20" move the flying Archmage can reach far. But the thing is that would have force him to land in front of the forest. Better chances to hit. And I needed that help a lot.

2. Moving eagle and ER on the left was a mistake. I could have better used them to delay cavalry. Instead, I lost them for no gain.

3. Possibly move BSB and both characters more towards the centre so any D&D is not causing dramas and chances for the unit to flee the table. I would have also had Dragon Princes in range for that much needed re-roll for a panic check.

4. Long charge of Lions was risky and didn't pay off. On the other hand it gave me the opportunity to fight dragon mage and that exchange was good for me. At the same time, failed panic check and failed charge meant I got no chances to attack bolt throwers. Simply to silence them down as there is not much point gain for them and I doubt I would have been able to get more than 2.

5. Earthing Rod was really needed this time. I cascaded Larry but could re-roll that only to get a 10 and to lose all magic levels. But at least he was alive for the reminder of the game. And that is very important.

6. The only thing I wonder about is how should I position Sisters. They were primary target and maybe it would have been a better idea to keep them behind other units?

Chris played a very good game. He was patient and meticulous in picking up the targets. He used his magic in a superb way and only lucky rolls saved my Loremaster and his bodyguards. Point denial helped here a lot too as even with the loss of the Archmage he didn't lose a single point.

I learned a lot on how to play against double dragon army but I am still not sure if I could pull out a similar result again. But it was a great pleasure and honour to play against Chris and his very mobile army.

Thanks a lot, Chris, and congratulations on a very good placing over all! =D>

Thanks for reading!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 1 - updated 5.12

#11 Post by Phoenix Throne »

Great Report.
BIG thanks for another fantastic report. Your BR might be some of the most entertaining and inspirational on the net.
In fact, I blame it on your BR that I decided to leave 3 old armies in the closet and start with High Elves :P

It was indeed a very tough matchup. You really did not have what it took to win big against this list IMHO.
So - well done!

But 6 rounds of 4 x Eagle Claws shooting at you unmolested - ouch :cry:
You got a little unlucky with some break test (paniced DP in Turn 4) and some charges.
(Leaving the WL in a spot where the Dragon Mage could overrun into the DP)
Otherwise you might have bagged those Eagle Claws (and potentially a draw).

Only one things I do not understand:

1. The way you placed your eastern eagle in Turn 4.
Why not try for target saturation and have him aimed at the Bolt Throwers as well?
If placed behind the Reavers he benefits from cover and even if Reavers survived he can charge over them.
If they run/are destroyed they have Ld 8 and a good chance of staying (not that it worked for your DP :roll: ).
Did you play points denial? For 50 points?

Keep the BR coming please [-o< and looking much forward to your other games from the Masters.
Particularly the ones where you had to play with other armies.
Last edited by Phoenix Throne on Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 1 - updated 5.12

#12 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Whenever an Eagle Claw aims at my flank it takes a whole rank off =(
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 1 - updated 5.12

#13 Post by Eltherion »

Great Batrep as always Swordmaster. A great result vs. a tough opponent with a tough list.

I was wondering why you didn't make more use of the building when you deployed, it would have been a perfect place to hide a unit of your Sisters though I guess they would have received more Magic Damage from his Fire Mage (though -2 from shooting).
Last edited by Eltherion on Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 1 - updated 5.12

#14 Post by Ether Dude »

Greetings Swordmaster!

Thank you for posting such an intriguing game. Your ability to keep focus and get narrow results is quite incredible. From turn 2 on, I was expecting a total blow out!

About the sisters: since two of the RBTs were on a hill, I do not know if you would have gotten a cover modifier from those bolt throwers. As such, placing them in the "los shadow" of the forest farther to the right may have helped some what. You might have also placed them very far back to act as a kind of "rear guard" in case the dragons flew over your lines. Then you'd have your 12 s4 shots available to work with.

As for the game, I do not see many mistakes. You chose not to rush the RBTs, which I found to be an interesting choice. What was your logic there? I thought you would advance quickly with the cavalry and use your infantry as a counter-charge element while shooting up the dragons so you had a chance at killing them.

Aside from killing the AM, did the loremaster do anything significant?

Again, splendid report, thanks for posting it!

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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 1 - updated 5.12

#15 Post by Clockwork »

Wow well done Swordmaster! As I said before I think that this is one of the toughest draws firt you just on lists; throw the former champion in and it's really an uphill struggle. Although a minor loss might not seem like it, I think that walking away with 9-11 is something to be pleased with.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 1 - updated 5.12

#16 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

HI guys,

Thanks a lot for your feedback!

@ Phoenix Throne

Thanks! I am very happy to hear you like my reports so much! That is a great motivation for me to keep them coming. :)

While I agree that it was a tough match-up I disagree I didn't have tools to win. I could deal with each threat separately. The challenge lies in trying to find out a solution when you have multiple threats that cover each other weaknesses. While I am very happy with the result it does not stop me from thinking how can I do better next time as I believe it can be done!

The thing with an eagle was that when I failed Ld test I thought it would simply be wasted as I didn't have enough units in position to present too many targets. Also, the enemy cavalry was approaching my characters and I was not sure if I could actually hold them with few units I had. Hence, the sacrifice of Sea Guard and Lions and withdrawing an eagle so that I can use it to divert them. In the end it was not necessary but that was an idea.

Oh, and positioning of WL to expose their flank was the risk I took to charge bolt throwers. It was long shot (I needed 11 to make the charge) but I decided to take it. Unfortunately, it didn't work.

@ Ele

This time Chris didn't take the opportunity to do so against my DP when they failed to restrain and had to pursue lone Silver Helm.

@ Eltherion

Indeed, I could have used the building but I thought it is a little too far away if I wanted to shoot at the dragons turn 1. It looked like it would have been the case. Although in later stages (or even from the start) it would have been good to position characters there.

@ Ether Dude

Thanks! This time it worked out somehow but there are games where I cannot get back. I guess I need more practice to do so regularly :)

Yes, I think having shooters as a back line can be a good idea. It forces the dragons to move forward but at the some time be in danger of being attacked and shot at. That was indeed my impression I positioned Sisters too forward and didn't use the opportunity to hide them, at least to get the -1/2 penalty for shooting with enemy bolt throwers.

The reason I didn't rush bolt throwers was that I didn't want the dragons to land behind my back. I also needed to see which way can be used. On the left flank it was way too crowded. And I made a mistake and use fast units too quickly. Instead of using them as redirectors I had to use Sea guard and Lions later on. I lost points for no gain.

I wanted to attack them from the right flank and I was heading there. If not for the failed DP panic test I think I would have been able to use at least one cavalry unit to engage them. But unfortunately that didn't really work either.

Larry managed to heal himself which was quite important and I think we had Spirit Leach first turn off too but I failed to win that and didn't even force the enemy to make his ward save rolls. I guess I need to practice my dice rolls skills too! :)

@ Clockwork

Oh, I was very, very happy with it! Nobody gave me a lot of chances in that match up and seeing the face of TO when he received information about the result was priceless! :)

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 1 - updated 5.12

#17 Post by Jimmy »

Thanks for the report on Game 1 SM. A great read and a tough match up for the first game of that there is no doubt. Once again the Outcasts are put to the test with 2 flying monsters which is going to be a struggle for most lists however you continue to play to your armies strengths and don't baulk in the face of danger and hold your composure. An incredible testament to your generalship.

Great result on a very tough match-up.

As always I'm looking forward to the next battle.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 1 - updated 5.12

#18 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings Centurion!

Thank you very much for very kind words! Indeed, I tried hard not to fail that terror test :) Now my aim is to perform in a similarly cool manner in all my games!

I have started preparing the report for game 2. Pictures are resized and diagrams for first 2 turns are ready. I plan to finish them today in the evening and, time permitting, I will try to write it all up.

Cheer!
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 1 - updated 5.12

#19 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

Let's continue!

Game 2 - Mick - Vampire Counts

In game 2, which also used Dawn Attack scenario rules, I had a pleasure to play against Mick and his horde of undead. We haven't had a chance to play against each other yet although I believe there were a few occasions in the past when it was quite possible.

Mick is a current number 2 in Oz and he was also selected to the Australian ETC 2014 Team. That meant I was playing against a veteran Master player :) Let's see what he decided to bring to the tournament:

Vampire Counts - Army List

Vampire Lord, level 1,great weapon, heavy armour, Dragonhelm, Talisman of preservation, Book of arkhan, Other tricksters shard, Red fury, Rlying horror - 411 - Lore of Vampires
Master necormancer, level 3, Power stone - 185 - Lore of Vampires
Necromancer, level 1, Dispel scroll, Obsidian trinket - 105 - Lore of Death
Wight King, great weapon, Nightshroud - 130
34 Crypt Ghouls, champion - 350
5 dire wolves - 40
5 dire wolves - 40
30 zombies, musician, standard bearer - 100
20 zombies, musician, standard bearer - 70
28 grave guard, great weapons, full command, Banner of the barrows - 416
7 Crypt Horrors - 266
2 fell bats - 32
2 bat swarms - 70
4 vargiests - 184

Another tough army for my Outcasts to fight against. Vampire Lord has the ability to chop anything I can throw at him by himself. He can then proceed to heal himself if he suffers any wounds. GW and "only" 4+/4++ saves might give me a chance to wound him sometimes but in general it is a tough thing to accomplish.

Necromancers and a bound spell assured that the magic should work to VC army favor. Depending on the spell selection I was about to either face multiple invocations or even two van hels spells per turn. Spirit Leach on level 1 also added to the equation, in particular that at this event Inspiring Presence could be used for the roll-off. So lowly necromancer had ld10 for the purpose of that spell.

4 combat units were all tough on their own. Ghouls and Grave Guard are very numerous and only a powerful mutliple charge can decrease their numbers fast enough to avoid them getting back to fight thanks to necromantic spells. Vargheists, while frenzied and unarmored, pose a huge threat thanks to S5 and ability to fly. Crypt Horrors are insanely tough and very hard to destroy even with flaming attacks.

Add to that some zombies and a few fast unit and you have a force that can form a very solid battle line, can move surprisingly fast and can replenish the losses quickly too.

I also wanted to highlight that Mick's army looks absolutely fantastic on the battle field and I was ashamed that my own elves are not up to that high standard. I will need to improve that aspect asap. Mick, your army is an inspiration! Thanks for that! :)

Deployment

Image
Tight undead formation versus spread elven battle line

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Deployment of the armies after vanguard moves.

A lot depended on the scenario. I lost the roll off and I knew that I will probably be second. Because of that I wanted to deploy slightly further with some of the units, so that I had more time to shoot or react. It was hard to predict where particular units might end up so I had to adapt quickly. But I had a little advantage because I saw how Mick's army is deployed and could form some kind of a plan already. His army unintentionally ended up crowded in the corner. It meant I had a lot of room for wide outflanking maneuver. At the same time I needed some delaying force on the opposite flank or units that could threaten the advance of the undead if they wished to turn more towards the center.

Whatever the deployment it looked like it was a race against time for both of us. If Mick managed to advance quickly he could overwhelm my forces on one flank before the reinforcements arrived from another. If I could delay the advance I would be able to set these combined charges and try to destroy his units in powerful attacks from all directions.

Mick's wizards had the following spells:

Vampire - Invocation
Master Necromancer - Invocation, Van Hels, Hellish Vigor
Necromancer - Spirit Leach

I attempted to steal the initiative but I was not successful and Mick had the first turn.

Vampire Counts - Turn 1

Image
Undead move forward

Image
The advance is unnaturally fast!

Undead horde moved forward. But instead of slow and uncontrolled shambling the restless dead move in unison and at a speed that was surprising even to the Elven warriors. Surely some powerful mind and iron will was behind that.

Outcasts - Turn 1

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Cavalry leads the way!

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Left flank on hold, right flank moving fast

Elves moved according to the orders given before the battle. Left flank stood firm and opened fire at Crypt Horrors destroying two of the huge creatures. For now. A pack of dire wolves was also destroyed in an accurate bow fire.

Right flank moved quickly to intercept dire wolves and to outflank the approaching undead units.

Vampire Counts - Turn 2

Image
Undead are almost upon High Elves

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Elven lines seem to be in disarray

Undead minions didn't slow down and in some cases it even looked like they are faster. Crypt Horrors headed towards the heavy cavalry, almost making it to the elven deployment zone. One regiment of Sisters had to withdraw from the charge of the Grave Guard. Powerful magic was at work again and not only the undead regiments moved surprisingly fast but the undying legion's warriors seemed to be even more vigorous. What is more, the seemingly destroyed Horrors stood up again and joined their cursed brethren.

Outcasts - Turn 2

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Blurry picture - no report is complete without at least one :oops:

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Encirclement of the enemy. Or so it seemed.

Offense is the best form of defense and Elves attacked. Dragon Princes with the support of Sea Guard attacked Crypt Horrors. Flaming lances tore through foul bodies and spears stabbed from the side but still 3 brutes remained and held the line for their vampiric master.

On the other flank elven units moved fast and encircled the enemy in a perfect formation. Or was it?

Vampire Counts - Turn 3

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Counter attack

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Undead dominate the left flank

Dragon Princes and Sea Guard fought bravely but the counter charge of the Vargheists was too much and both units fled. Grave Guard and Ghouls both destroyed interfering eagles but surprisingly enough one of them inflicted a single wound on a Vampire Lord before it perished.

Zombies moved accordingly to the Vampire orders and blocked elven cavalry from supporting their infantry companions.

Outcasts - Turn 3

Image
All out charge!

Bob the Battle Standard Bearer gulped his potion and feeling very heroic shout out to the cursed vampire lord to meet him in a single combat. Surprisingly, the lord of the night sent his ghoul minion in his stead. The attack of many elven units was incredibly ferocious and where in one second a ghoul horde was threatening their lines, now only Vampire Lord and a single cannibalistic creature remained.

Elven cavalry hacked left and right to break through the bodies of zombies to aid their companions but for now they were stuck.

Vampire Counts - Turn 4

Image
Exchange of blows continues

Vampire Lord tried hard to break through. He even managed to rise more ghouls to help him out. He faced only Swordmasters so he though he had a chance. But warriors of Hoeth swung their blades with no mercy and inflicted such horrible casualties to the unit that the magic was weakened and Lord of the Night perished with his minions.

Grave Guard, led by their immortal king also stormed elven warriors in order to break through. Archers bravely stood in their path. Brave warriors died but helped other units to set up the trap.

Outcasts - Turn 4

Image
The might of coordinated attack

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Another powerful combined charge!

Elves, encouraged by the fact the Vampire Lord perished, doubled their efforts. Heavy Cavalry tore through thin line of zombies and smashed into the rear of the Grave Guard. The timing was perfect as the undead were simultaneously engaged from all sides by Swordmasters and White Lions. No foe could stand such a powerful attack and Grave Guard was no more. Only their King had the will strong enough to remain standing.

Although the undead were still a threat it was clear that without their master and with their numbers decreasing fast, that they were in a very difficult position. Master Necromancer decided then, that it is time to withdraw before Elves regroup and encircle him and his brainless "bodyguards".

After-battle thoughts

I was very pleased with the outcome even if we played only 4 turns. I was hard pressed and I thought I am done when the opportunity presented itself. The all out attack, even without the aid of cavalry proved to be a right decision. I risked my BSB knowing that Vampire has lost 1 wound and that 3 ASF attacks with S8 can be his ending. Since the positioning of the characters prevented Vampire from attacking the Swordmasters I managed to inflict even more casualties. But the effect of destroying 30 ghouls in a single combat was surprising even for me.

Mick played a very good game and I admired his great skill in blocking my units with seemingly very slow infantry. Magic of course helps but it was a very good performance regardless. After the game we exchanged the impressions and he said he probably was moving his units too fast. It allowed me to isolate ghouls and even when grave guard turned around it was not able to help out and prevent the worse - losing the general.

Another powerful charge from all sides and also grave guard crumbled in a single turn. I was very glad I managed to pull out these charges as for a change, in this game the close combat was the main thing. Shooting did little and the casualties were brought back anyway.

And let's not forget about brave eagle who inflicted that one crucial wound on Vampire Lord himself!

I would like to thank Mick for a fantastic game! It was a great pleasure to play against you and I am looking forward to the opportunity for a rematch!

Thanks for reading!
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 2 - updated 8.12

#20 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

The famous combo charges, you're well known for your MSU, but it's the combo charges you pull off that makes you so good.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 2 - updated 8.12

#21 Post by Ferny »

This read like a cracking game! Good work on the victory :).

I'm putting my trusted infantry blocks to rest at the minute and am exploring other builds, amongst them MSU, so expect a stream of questions to your other thread at some point fairly soon :D.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 2 - updated 8.12

#22 Post by siovim »

Amazing :)

Seeing you accomplish those combo charges is really breath taking. Thanks for a good read, and some food for thought

I will second Ferny, sayingthat i'm trying to avoid my trusted infantry combat blocks and use other builds, and MSU is under much consideration, mainly thanks to your reports.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 2 - updated 8.12

#23 Post by Clockwork »

Great second game Swordmaster. Even though it was down to luck, at first I thought you were in real trouble because its often said on here that the way to beat MSU is to concentrate your force at one particular point in the line and overwhelm it - and it looked exactly like that was going to happen. But you pulled it back.

How long was the charge from the LSG into the flank of the Horrors?
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 2 - updated 8.12

#24 Post by Jimmy »

Hey SM

Thanks for giving me something to read this morning! Great battle report as usual (even with the traditional blurry photo moment!). Just a question from the peanut gallery – what was the reason not to charge with your second unit of swordmasters in Turn 3? Surely with the added weight of attacks that would have crumbled the remaining Zombies and allowed them to reform? Was this purely to do with the looming threat of the Grave Guard nearby?

Initially I wasn’t so sure on your deployment with the Bolt thrower however as the game progressed it was undoubtedly the correct choice. Did it do much this game?

In conclusion that looked like an incredible battle and a well executed plan on your behalf. That final charge involving 5 units just personifies what the MSU strategy is all about.

A quote from the great Sun Tzu which wraps this up nicely:

“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”

Once again congratulations and you’re making it so difficult to stay away from the High Elves after reading games like this!

=D>
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 2 - updated 8.12

#25 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Thanks a lot for the feedback!

@ Ele

It is not often when I can pull out such attacks these days and it makes me even more happy to do so against a very good opponent!

@ Ferny

Thanks! it was a great game too! Mick is a fantastic opponent and his example should be followed by many competitive players.

@ siovim

Thanks a lot! I am really glad I could provide some good read :) And I will do my best to discuss any things you would like to talk about in terms of MSU. So don't be shy!

@ Clockwork

Yes, it definitely looked like it but it also shows that the loss of a few units does not take away the ability of MSU army to hit back and hit hard. Mick blocked my cavalry very well but imagine what would have happened if I could add them to the whole combat. I think it shows that horde formation can be in a very dangerous situation against multiple small units.

If I only played like that every game! :)

LSG charge was quite short in fact. It seems longer as there were Sisters in between the units but I still could make it pass them. But the roll itself was at good odds. I am not sure, however, if it was right decision. If I charged with DP only I would have had a chance to stay there a little bit longer. Instead, I offered the flank to the Vargheists attack and that forced both units to flee.

@ Jimmy

Thanks a lot, mate! I am always happy to provide something nice to read for the morning coffee :)

Yes, I was concerned with the charge of Grave Guard that could potentially break through. So I wanted to keep one unit in reserve to be able to counter if the cavalry were stuck for longer.

Eagle Claw was there purely because of the roll due to scenario and I had no choice but to position it on the right flank. I would have preferred to position it where it could shoot well and add to the punishment against Crypt Horrors for example. Unfortunately, I was not able to focus all my shooting on them so that they could be healed to the full strength.

Thanks again for the kind words. As I said, I wish I could play like that every game :)

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 2 - updated 8.12

#26 Post by Hinge »

Hey SM-

Sorry about the delay in providing my observations. I have to say that this was a great start of the tournament for you.

Game 1

Deployment- Did you think about deploying the Sisters behind the hill then moving them onto it to shoot on the first turn. This would have kept them safe for at least a single turn and if they did not get wiped out in a single turn of shooting, they could always duck back behind the hill to deny the points. I know your opponent would have just shot at something else but those were some of your best missile troops. I also think your Eagle claw should go in the marsh to force a dangerous terrain on anything that charges it. Cav fail on a 1 or 2, potentially panicking any cav units that go after this asset.

Your charge declaration of the White Lions v. the RBTs. I have thought about this decision and cannot decide if it was a good one or not. How far was the charge? Since you were able to pick up Dragon, it certainly ended well, but in my gut it does not feel like the right move. It just seems it ended well because the White Lions failed their stubborn test while the Dragon Princes made their first and then was able to get away. If the WL had held, you had no real solid counter charge set up; the dragon could have finished the WL and flown away.

Game 2

That combo charge was awesome. Bravo and a great win. My only comment is not to forget the RBT can move. Not going to get great shots but you could perhaps contribute to whittling down those larger units.


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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 2 - updated 8.12

#27 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Hinge,

Thanks a lot for the feedback!

Unfortunately I didn't think about deploying Sisters in the way you suggested. Somehow I fell into the habit of deploying shooting units first and more in the centre. It was a mistake here because first, I lost very good units and second, because I didn't play to my strengths either. Chris had to move his dragons so having even one shooting phase with opportunity to shoot everything at a single target might have had changed a lot.

Very good idea about the marsh too!

I think that long charge with Lions was simply a mistake. I needed an 11 on 2d6, so very slim chance. My reasoning at the time was that I expected Lions to be charged anyway so wanted to give it a go. However, I didn't move other units to be in support. Such long charges make sense only when there is back up. There was none. So yes, I was lucky here that they failed their stubborn check and fled as that opened the path for Dragon princes to charge later on.

it just shows I have a lot of things to work on and gives some more hope for a better result against similar army. :)

As to game 2 I have to agree again. War machines can move too and our moves almost as fast as a marching Dwarf :) Indeed, I was very happy with that combined charge. It is not often that I can pull something like that and I am glad I took the opportunity here and went all out attack!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 2 - updated 8.12

#28 Post by Eltherion »

Swordmaster

A well executed envelopment of the VC's left flank and a solid win vs. a good player.

This is one match up where the Seaguard are pretty good in combat.

As Hinge has suggested the Sisters were deployed in the front of your lines and being in small units of 5 are going to die really easily. I guess if the sisters are receiving the damage then it is saving your other troops.
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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 2 - updated 8.12

#29 Post by Hinge »

Ah, habits in deployment, whether, deploying units in a certain order, a certain formation, always putting characters in certain units, etc. I think we are all guilty of sticking to set habits when deploying. It is something I am trying hard to work on myself.

I think that describing the Deployment phase is a very difficult thing to do in a Bat rep despite how important this phase of the game can be. Communicating the order and reactions to each drop is tough. In the end, deployment suggestions are always a big “what if” as your opponent would likely react (and deploy) differently.

On the WL. I think that was an uncharacteristic move on your part SM, which is why it caught my attention. Actually declaring the charge was not necessarily bad in its own right as long as you had some units you can maneuver to set up the counter charge if you should fail.

@Ele-

I thought the same thing and was actually hesitating about making the observation. However, Chris was going to shoot at those other units on the second turn anyways. I think I would prefer to give the SoA a chance to get at least one volley off.

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Re: HE MSU at Australian Masters - Game 2 - updated 8.12

#30 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Thanks a lot for more feedback! Keep it coming!

@ Eltherion

While it is true that if one unit is the target then another one is not, it should be me who decides who takes one for the team, not the enemy :) In this game it is hard, however, to decide who is better to receive that punishment first. Lions and Heavy cavalry have better chances to save some of the incoming fire but I still need them for combats later in the game. It is also one of the reasons I like to have 2 units of each kind. Thanks to that I can "afford" to lose one so that second regiment may have a chance to arrive relatively unharmed.

The plan was to use the shooting and magic to kill the wizards as early as possible. I accomplished that but having sisters relatively intact even for one shooting phase might be the difference I needed.

@ Hinge

Deployment is indeed a crucial phase. In friendly games it is possible to note the order of the deployment and then analyse it from that point of view. In the case of the tournament game there is simply no time and later on, I am afraid, I don't recall it any more :(

What we could do, however, is to consider what would be the order of the deployment in this game in a more general way. For example, which units (and were) to deploy and which leave when the whole enemy army is already there. One of the advantages of the MSU approach is that I can still have considerable amount of units to place when I see the enemy's formation. So, we can assume that Chris would have deployed in the same way regardless of my own placings. (no matter if that is true or not but we need a starting point :))

I guess I can sometimes make a move that surprises even myself :) But yes, I need to remember that that is why I have more units so that if the charge fails I can follow up and create a cohesive battle line again. It is even more important with small units where isolated one is always in danger of being overwhelmed by the enemy.

Cheers!
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