HE MSU at Castle Assault - Summary

[jamierk]

As a guess, i'd have been worried about what shadow warriors would do to his Slann bunker. Would be a simple thing for them to tie up the slann and keep his magic missiles and ranged threat out of the game. Just a thought though.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Good point, jamierk. Although I still wonder if Slann alone would not be able to solve that problem with well placed fireball or burning gaze

[Hinge]

no worries, I can wait for the Bat Rep, though impatiently

[jamierk]

How good is a loremaster when he's a level 4. I'm seriously tempted to try throwing the book of ashur on my loremaster for CanCon as its not a comped item (as opposed to the book of hoeth).

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

hi guys,

@ Hinge

Sorry, mate, I am really trying not to delay the reports too long. Hence posting the deployment pictures in the meantime so at least there is some update. Soon, my friend, soon!

@ jamierk

I faced Loremaster Slann in my both games against Lizards during CA and I find it awesome! Being level 4 makes a huge difference because even 10+ spells can be attempted with 2 dice. If HE could only generate as many power dice as Slann it would have been a very dangerous combination.

Cheers!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Game 2 is finally up! Sorry for the delay and again, thanks for patience!

[RE.Lee]

Great battle report, I really enjoyed the read. The charging Slann was indeed something unexpected but perhaps it must have seemed like a good idea at the time for your opponent, right? Congrats on the win

[Tiny]

Wow...What a Game!

So many unexpected swings of events... Greate reading as always

[athanoes1]

what a game!
take that Toad!

cant wait for the next report!!!
keep em coming Swordmaster!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys,

Thanks a lot, I am really glad you like the report from game 2!

@ RE.Lee

Who knows? It is quite possible that Ethan had some idea but unfortunately for him it backfired badly. Slann is worth a lot of points!

@ Tiny

Thanks! I appreciate your kind words and your support with pasting these reports to your forum!

@ athanoes1

Game 3 in the making but as always, please, be patient.

Cheers!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys!

Let's continue the story! Game 3 of the Castle Assault!

Game 3 - Blood and Glory - High Elves - Marc

In game 3 we played Blood and Glory scenario with the following modifications:

1. Breaking point is 3 fortitude points
2. Did you break the enemy? - 3BP
3. Was the winning army 1 point away from breaking itself? - 2 BP to the loser
4. Was the winning army 2 point away from breaking itself? - 1 BP to each player
5. Was the winning army 3 point away from breaking itself? - 2 BP to the winner

Apart from that all was as in the rulebook.

It was a very interesting match up as I had to play against another HE army. Before the new book it was always a pillow fight as none of the units had re-rolls and everybody hit at the same time. Now it was different as some units kept re-rolls against some and getting into combat with right units was crucial.

Marc had a HE army with striking, purple-pink color scheme, Mr. Frosty as a center piece and some nice Reavers conversions.

High Elves - Army List

Archmage, level 4, Talisman of Preservation - Lore of Beasts

BSB, Halberd, Armor of Caledor
Mage, level 1, Dispel Scroll - Lore of Heavens

30 Spearmen FC
10 Archers
5 Reavers bows, spears, musician
5 Reavers bows, spears, musician

23 Pheonix Guard FC
21 White Lions, Musician, Banner of World Dragon
5 Shadow Warriors

Frostheart Pheonix
Great Eagle
Great Eagle
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower

Much tougher force, with some usual suspects but not all of them. I was curious if I would be able to do something about Frosty. I was also wondering what kind of combats would be favorable to me. I knew I had to avoid Spears and Guard with my own elite infantry. Spears and Guard can strike first, get re-rolls and simply butcher my small units. At the same time Sea Guard and Archers, if attacking from flanks, can grind even white lions given time.

There were a few support units and 2 bolt throwers that also had to be dealt with very quickly if I wanted to have a chance in that game. These regiments are perfect to interfere with my movement phase so it was crucial to win support units war and not to lose to many regiments of my own in the process.

Deployment


Civil War about to begin


Deployment of armies after vanguard

Not surprisingly Marc deployed his army as forward as possible, using the opportunity given by the scenario. I decided to deploy a little further as I needed some more time to deal with light troops. I also reinforced flanks to be able to get to bolt throwers. I thought I might have a good match up with Swordmasters against Lions if I could send both units at the same time. Hitting on 3+ and having more attacks should give me an edge in that combat but if that happened it would be a bloody encounter anyway.

Marc's wizards had following spells:

Archmage - Wyssan's Wildform, The Flock of Doom, The Curse of Anraheir, Transformation of Kadon
Mage - Harmonic Convergence

Marc won the roll off and his was first turn.

High Elves - Turn 1


Royal Elves move fast forward


Outcasts under pressure from the start

Royal Elves wasted no time and used the opportunity of being deployed closer to the enemy. All units moved fast forward with light troops leading the way. The wizards also added their support to the army effort. Archmage cursed one unit of Swordmasters while Mage magically improved the accuracy of the bow fire coming from Shadow Warriors.

The the barrage of missiles of different size decimated one unit of Sisters and in an incredible display of accuracy, one of the eagle claws destroyed entire squadron of enemy fast cavalry with a single salvo!

A very strong start for royal Elves.

Outcasts - Turn 1


Outcasts hold their ground ...


... and try to counter attack

Despite some significant losses right from the start Outcasts steeled themselves and tried to counter attack. Proud descendants of the dragon riders of the past aimed at Forstphoenix but quickly found out that their lances do not strike with usual accuracy nor the strength of the charge is appropriate. The combat continues.

Light troops on the flanks march fast forward to attack enemy bolt throwers at the earliest opportunity. Reavers on the West try to aim at their counterparts but their shots miss the target. Fortunately, the troops in the middle managed to destroy both light units of the enemy and cleared the field.

High Elves - Turn 2


Royal Elves tighten their grip


Their shooting is still very accurate

Royal Elves keep marching forward. Frostheart phoenix is locked in combat against heavy cavalry but 3 big infantry blocks have clear path towards the enemy battle line. Archmage once again curses the Swordmasters.

On the West Reavers unhorsed two enemy light cavalrymen and eagle claw crew, together with Archers, killed another 3 Dragon Princes. On the East Shadow Warriors suffered casualties and withdrew to the safety of the forest, while archers in the center were down to the third of their initial numbers.

Outcasts - Turn 2


Despite close proximity of Mr. Forsty it is getting hot in here!


Outcasts begin their maneuver dance

With close proximity of enemy troops Outcasts send in their light troops to divert and disorganize their foe's approach. Unfortunately, both heavy cavalry units fail this time. These fighting against Frostheart phoenix lose 2 and their standard bearer dies (Edit: a little unlucky to fail Ld8 test after losing combat by 1).

The unit on the Western flank fails to reach enemy bolt thrower and are sitting ducks in the open now. (Edit: Even more unlucky as I think I needed 5-6 to roll with swiftstride to reach the war machine)

High Elves - Turn 3


Royal Elves charge!


Outcasts in big trouble

Roayl Elves are now in position to charge. Frostheart, seeing exposed flank of enemy sea guard unit charges in. Steadfast outcasts hold their ground, however. Phoenix Guard quickly destroys blocking eagle.

On the West reavers and eagle charge White Lions but it backfires as they lost a few of their numbers and stubborn Chracians go nowhere. Dragon Princes, however, are shot to pieces. Only spears decided to pull back.

Outcasts - Turn 3


The armies locked in deadly combat


Battle rages on few fronts

Outcasts are hard pressed but keep fighting. Swordmasters, strengthened by Loremasters spell, charge Frostheart Phoenix and wound it. But the combat remains unresolved.

Nearby eagle blocks approaching Lions as Phoenix Guard is in the wrong position to support the Phoenix and attack any of the enemy units.

On the West Lions destroy both light troops of the enemy while Reavers charge and destroy bolt thrower, while Shadow Warriors renew their effort to capture the second one. Finally, another unit of Lions moves to the flank and the shooters aim at exposed spears to thin down their numbers.

High Elves - Turn 4


Outcasts start breaking through!


Royal Elves tried to swing the balance of the combat to their advantage

Seeing an opening Royal BSB charges heroically into combat, supported by great eagle. However, Swordmasters break through cold and ice and finally destroy the Phoenix. They are not able to dispatch the eagle though. While warriors of Hoeth remain in the fight their effort allows the Loremaster and his few surviving bodyguards to escape to safety.

Spears reform to face the Lions while bolt thrower kills some more Shadow Warriors and only one of them survives but this time he is determine to enact vengeance upon war machine crew for killing his companions.

(Edit: I am not quite sure what was the story with Lions and Eagle as it seems it was charge and either fled from combat or somehow survived it and fled, sorry )

Outcasts - Turn 4


Loremaster is free!


Setting up the trap

Larry the Loremaster leads his companions out of reach of enemy Phoenix Guard and closes in to attack exposed rear of the spears. Lions surround them too while shooters keep thinning them down.

Swordmasters killed enemy BSB but still could not get rid of an eagle. Lone shadow warrior successfully charged and destroyed another war machine.

High Elves - Turn 5


The battle enters final stage


Royal elves attack secondary targets

Phoenix Guard and White Lions charge respective targets and destroy them. These are, however, secondary ones as main units and characters of the enemy are out of reach.

Spears remain in place while Mage runs away before the inevitable combat erupts. Seeing this Archmage toughens his warriors with a spell that makes them stronger too.

Outcasts - Turn 5


Death of the spears regiment


Trademark combined charge by Outcasts

Three units and two characters charge as one. Spears fight bravely but cannot withstand such an assault and are run down in hot pursuit. Larry the Loremaster also manages to kill the enemy mage with his Death spell just before the combat started.

Swordmasters finally killed an eagle and had to prepare themselves to receive Lions charge.

High Elves - Turn 6


Last attacks by Royal Elves

Phoenix Guard charged the Archers and destroyed them after short combat. Lions found themselves well matched. In fact, Swordmasters counter attacked with such ferocity that it was Lions regiment that had to steel themselves and keep fighting! But the price was high and only a bladelord remained against whole Lions unit. Fortunately, his companions from the second regiment were coming to his aid.

Outcasts - Turn 6


Charge of the Swordmasters!

There was only one fight remaining and all eyes were turned towards deadly contest between Lions and Swordmasters. Would stubbornness and ferocity prevail or was the centuries of rigorous training to make a difference?

As it turned out Swordmasters killed all but one Lion and only thanks to the fact he held his standard high that Royal Elves were not broken.

Seeing this, the Archmage gave the signal for withdraw. Surprisingly, Outcasts carried the day!

After-battle thoughts

After turn 2 I thought I am going down. Marc's shooting was devastating and despite my advantage in the fast units department I was losing the war of support regiments.

His army was going fast and choked mine in the corner - a sign that I deployed badly and that I was not acting decisively. When Frostheart broke my heavy cavalry in my turn I though I am very, very dead.

But a few things happened that allowed me to claw my way back and even win the game in the end.

First of all I think that if Marc sent his units supported by each other I would have been in much more serious trouble. Frostheart is tough but it seems that his few attacks and random t-stomp may not be enough to kill even small infantry fast enough. I thought that the charge against it with heavy cavalry was a mistake but if not for that blunder with Ld test I was actually pleased with the fact it was pinned down for a while. Having said that, it is quite possible I should have move them to the flank instead and threaten Lions.

Marc pointed out that it was a mistake on his part not to attack an eagle with his spears. I think he is correct. It would bring his unit closer to my main regiments and I was running out of re-directors. In general, spears were quite passive. I expected a charge against Lions with BSB simply to thin them down if not kill them eventually. Instead, they waited to be surrounded and destroyed.

I also think it helped me that fast units were either exposed early or attacked flanking units. Thanks to that my own eagles were safe and could have been used when I wanted to. I also destroyed these regiments and got to the war machines, despite very heavy losses at the beginning. If these fast units were kept in reserve they would have engage my own units and isolate combats better.

(Edit: Marc had doubts about war machines losing combats, so here is the relevant passage in the rulebook that we should have checked during the game:

page 110, War Machines in Close Combat, last paragraph, last sentence:

If the war machine loses the combat and fails its Break test it is destroyed.

)

Another thing was how Phoenix Guard moved. For example, after killing the eagle they faced in the direction where they could not support Frosty. After that, a lone charge of a BSB against Swordmasters was risky and he lost his life. Next, PG charged eagle claw instead of Swordmasters who were already at half strength. Or they could reform and chase my Loremaster.

Finally, Lions seemed to be a little indecisive. They attacked Swordmasters, probably not the best target and suffered badly. It was quite lucky that Marc didn't lose that unit as it would make my win even bigger. But despite that I am still very happy with the victory.

Especially that I was very passive and indecisive too. I should have been more aggressive with Swordmasters and try to engage Lions earlier. I was not sure who might be better in such combat but now I know that it favors Swordmasters. Even if I lost one unit I should be able to grind the Lions down and in the end they are more expensive unit as well as it allows to get to the breaking point.

After adding all the bonus points and comp difference I got 15.5 : 4.5 win and found myself 3rd after day 1. It was totally unexpected and I knew that day 2 will be very, very hard as I was about to compete against top players.

Despite this loss Marc won his other games decisively and got best HE player award, so congratulations, well done!

Oh, and if you ever wondered, MSU is under rated

Cheers!

[athanoes1]

ooooo looks tough!!
Im looking forward to seeing how the game plays.....
you only chance i can see if to try and keep the blocks at bay, only bringing them to the fight when you can bring superior numbers to the fights.....
even magic isnt gonna do much here with all those ward saves

[Phoenix Throne]

Really expect the DP to shine here.
With I6 and WS5 they should be able to mincemeat their way through all but the Frostheart and Phoenix Guard.
The big block of White Lions would need to be thinned a little first, but as you have the better firepower....

[jamierk]

Anyone else find high elf vs high elf games some of the hardest tactically? I find all my usual tactics have to go out the window due to the asf vs asf thing. Very interested to see how this pans out!

[RE.Lee]

Looks interesting. The dual threat of the Frost Phoenix and Phoenix Guard is something to look out for, but I'm sure you managed them just fine

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys!

Thanks for comments!

@ athanoes1

Isolating big blocks is crucial here. I cannot fight them head on even without Frosty in support. But they are nicely placed together and very close so it is not easy task to do at all.

@ Phoenix Throne

Yes, in theory DP should be very good against elven infantry but as you have notices I cannot charge headlong as there are too many Lions in that regiment. Second unit is on the other flank and due to terrain a little off in terms of helping the center.

Hm, you will need to wait for the report as I don't want to give away too much now.

@ jamierk

It is perfect match-up. No matter what Elves win And enemies rejoice as Elves die too!

Since the advantage of ASF is not that obvious one needs to get the combats where your own units have significantly more attacks than the opponent. Or to send units that have ASF against these that don't. That creates a very interesting dynamics!

@ RE.Lee

Thanks! I am glad to know that you have faith in me

Cheers!

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Having played a lot of civil war battles I can attest to how good Dps are, the extra attacks make up for not getting to re-roll almost.
I haven't tried ramming my bus into a unit of White Lions yet, even though I'll be going first, I still fear the S6 attacks.

[~Milliardo~]

His army bores me - too traditional and conventional. The only thing unusual in it is the big block of Spearelves. Looks well painted from a distance though! :3

Oh, and I'm still here - just lurking in the shadows these days. :3

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

hi guys!

@ Ele

I think your bus might grind down the lions but only because of characters and powerful initial charge. It would be at a price though, so you might emerge without the bodyguards for characters.

@ Milliardo

I know you are there! I often feel somebody staring from the woods

Yes, it is quite a popular army at the moment. It is possible that there were concessions made to make the list a little softer due to peer comp. But maybe not.

I am actually glad I had a chance to play against such army as I know better now how to fight it. It is much harder build than mine and I will always consider myself and under-dog in such match up.

Cheers!

[Jimmy]

His army bores me - too traditional and conventional. The only thing unusual in it is the big block of Spearelves. Looks well painted from a distance though! :3

Oh, and I'm still here - just lurking in the shadows these days. :3

Honestly I'm finding 90% of High Elves list like this, hence the reason I'm in no hurry to pick them back up.

Great second game by the way SM.

[jamierk]

I wouldn't be too quick to judge an army like this. Boring is a matter of perspective (and experience). To me it looks like a reasonable attempt to take a balanced combined arms army without too much dependence on any area of the game. Its a little cookie cutter to me just because the High Elf book doesn't have a huge range of competitive builds in the local tournament meta. Would you prefer every high elf army to be MSU, or dragon prince star with double frost phoenix? Boring seems an odd criticism of a tournament army.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys,

@ Jimmy

Fortunately, there are also other ways of playing HE and Warhammer in general. The fact that something is popular does not and should not limit your imagination! Give yourself time, read stories and the idea will eventually present itself!

@ jamierk

I was always saying that variety is a spice of life. I would not want to see a single type of an army list being that popular no matter what it is. Before the new army book I often played against other HE armies and I have never played against the same army twice nor the army I faced was similar to mine. It was simply great!

Now HE players seem to keep searching for their perfect army but it things like Banner, Book and Frosty are very, very popular. For me it is a sign that the book is not designed well enough and despite the best variety ever there is something wrong with internal balance.

Cheers!

[~Milliardo~]

That's pretty much it - I'd rather try something odd and fail rather than take what someone else has and do reasonable. Its totally ego and an aesthetic thing but I just personally don't have any interest in the stock high elf build right now... and its not even winning that much either.

Archmage with Book and Shadow, BSB with Reaver Bow, 2x Reavers, 2x Archers, 2x elite WL/PF infantry, 2 frosthearts, 2-4 RBT, sometimes a cav bus, etc. I'm basically just seeing slight variations of this same thing. Its cool if that's what you want to play, but when 9 out of 10 battle reports feature it, I can't help but just skim the pictures and move on. I'm more likely to read the report carefully if the person is using skycutters, swordmasters, etc. because I'm far more likely to learn something.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

You will, my friend, you will!

As a teaser (damn work, I should take leave and go home to finish that report ) I can tell you that you will see:

- Magic guided missiles
- Roaring Lions charge at the forest of spears
- Swordmasters breaking through ice and cold only to face Lions wrath

How about that?

[jamierk]

I totally agree SM, and its the reason the book disappointed me so much. The old book had so many variations of powerful and competitive builds. Some were easier to win with than others, but i really enjoyed the variety and flexibility in the list building. For me it was the little magic items which allowed me to build a character very specifically for a purpose, and then being able to build a list around a unique idea someone might not have seen. Items like silverwand and seerstaff meant i could base a list around a specific magic spell or lore. In the new book, without the tools to provide adequate armour save on my foot characters, i find myself always ending up with a mounted BSB, enchanted shield, dawnstone and sword of might as its the only practical way i've found of having him survivable and useful. As soon as i include him, then i need silverhelms or dragon princes and so on and so on until i have the same list i've always built. I'd give up BotWD and the book every day of the week for silverwand, seerstaff, even the old tricksters pendant which was an awesome way of turning magic defence into a serious concern for your opponent without it being overpowered in anyway. Whoever thought the way to improve 8th was to reduce the number of magic items down to something very small had some strange ideas to me.

Anyway, back to the report, really looking forward to seeing if high elves win!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Even more reason to try and come up with some new and untested ideas!

I do miss these little trinkets I could give to regimental champions but there is nothing we can do about that, I am afraid. There are improvements in the new book, I like the fact that Swordmasters and Lions don't have re-rolls any more even if I have already suffered from that.

However, I believe I am collecting very valuable experience at the moment and hopefully my army will evolve in the direction that will allow to showcase more of the new toys too.

As to the battle you may never know, it might be a draw!

Cheers!

[jamierk]

In which case all elves win!

Yep, i'm still experimenting myself. I'm finding the subtle use of the loremaster is critical in my army builds, and doubly so with the book. What i'd really like to find is a legitimate excuse to take a flame phoenix. I painted him, and i want to run him and his frosty friend in one list with some success. I'm thinking Cancon is a great chance to try out mr flame bird due to his low comp cost and the nature of the tournament. I think their mistake with him is his points cost, which makes his internal balance poor.

[Tiny]

The old book had so many variations of powerful and competitive builds. Some were easier to win with than others, but i really enjoyed the variety and flexibility in the list building.

If I remember correctly it also took quite some time for the list evolution to get to this point of multiple working tournament army concepts. So it may also take some time for the new book...

[siovim]

Don't know why, but reading past comments stung me a little.

I started playing in 7th and my elite block have always been Phoenix Guard. So now that they have gone from the lowest of three to the best of three, i love to field them, and repeatedly send them in to hopeless combats. They are very hard to shift, and it's always bloody to fight horde enemies like skaven and peasant bretonnia. One other thing i enjoy much, is to load a dragon mage up on armour usually 2+ re-roll and 6++ and watch him shine with a 4+ to cast and an archmage to really give my oponent headache. If the archmage goes down! Fine, i have another caster who can cast just reliably, but magic defence pains a great deal.

As i said i really don't know why i'm stung by previous comments, but i thought i had to say this

[Gondarion]

I don't buy the argument that the new book is restricted to one or two builds. There are plenty of things with potential. There are certain obvious choices: if you have a lord-level mage, not taking the book is crazy. The Frost Phoenix is incredibly good, obviously. But the issue is whether there are many options that are viable, which I say there are. It is a big difference from the times I remember where many builds just weren't viable at all. I agree that losing all those tasty items was sad, but there are by and large more and better options now.