HE MSU - 2500 vs. Yvresii HE - 07.10

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Greetings!

I must admit it is a great thing to be able to play with more and more member of this forum. I am also aware it is only possible in XXI century with all the benefits of the internet. This time I had a pleasure to play against Elessehta of Yvresse himself! He does not need an introduction as he is one of the most active forum members. As you know Ele has his own unique approach to High Elves with his Yvresii theme. He is also a great story teller and I am very glad that he agreed to write a little as a prologue and epilogue for our game.

Prologue

Elessehta rested in his tent, the encounter with the Asrai had been brief, bloody, and totally unexpected. He had left the others with his troops to get some peace, he needed to meditate. After the shocking loss against a small contingent of men, and then again losing to some Eatainii sailor on a Great Eagle... how he wished his mighty Griffon could have come with them on this journey.

He needed to remember the lessons taught to him at the Armis Kormalin, he'd studied the Way of the Owl with Grand Master Thoronthol himself. Why had he deviated from it so much? Meditation would help.

He still saw the wild elves who had ridden through him and his entourage of mighty Storm Knights. He chuckled thinking that those savages had come upon them like lightning from Mathlann himself. The Paladin Ainmiru took it as a sign that they’d angered their god somehow. Ele had given them permission to return to the sea to try and contact the mighty storm god, but Ainmiru was his cousin, and wouldn’t leave him while he was injured.

His meditation was interrupted by a voice in his head, “Lord Silverbough, a message has come from Tor Yvresse. You had best come quickly”. Maethor, employing an old trick that came with his blood. Ohta’relen, Daggro, and he could all communicate telepathically, without the use of the stones. This is why they were concerned about Daggro, neither of them could reach him, this worried them.

Elessehta signalled to the horn bearer, who blew a note. The small force assembled and they moved quietly through the trees back toward the coast.
A message that Maethor didn't want to relay through the thought-speech, that sounded ominous.

Upon arriving back at camp Elessehta sought out Maethor, finding him in the command tent. He asked for the message, sat down and opened the letter. An incredulous look showed on his face as he read the flowing script on the page.
Turning to his weather mage he said "Prepare the soldiers, our Lord Eltharion will be testing us soon though a magic spell of the Arhain aspect of Qhaysh. A simulated battle against one of the great generals of the People. He wants to know how far I've come in my training in the Way of the Owl"
"My lord, who will be fighting this battle?" Maethor asked.
"Everyone except Vanyion, who will anchor the spell on this side" was the reply.
"Everyone? That's going to be a large battle, who is the General we'll be facing?" Maethor, full of questions as usual.
"A Sapherian Archmage, who many think has gone rogue. He is a brilliant general from all accounts, who likes to flood the battlefield with small units of hand picked warriors."
"We will be fighting this Mage for real in the aether?"
"No, they are using Arhain to project a likeness of him here."
Maethor laughed "We're fighting ghosts? HaHa~ This will be fun."

Army Lists and pre-battle considerations

It was a great honor that it was Eltharion himself who picked the army of outcasts and misfits to test Elessehta's generalship. He is by far my most favorite character

I knew that Ele uses Yvresii theme and that meant I could expect Sea Guard, Rangers, Eagle Claws and quite few characters. He was also very kind to send me his army list before the game as well as a photo of assembled army so that there is no doubt we could play the same game in real life if there was an opportunity to do so.

Yvresii High Elves - Army List

Elessehta Silverbough, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armour, Ogre Blade, Charmed Shield, Vambraces of Defense.
Evelo Maethor of the Mists, Level 4, Jewel of the Dusk, Folariath's Robe. - Lore of Heavens
Evelo Ohta'relen, Hand Weapon, Dragon Armour, Shield, Battle Standard, Reaver Bow, Mask of the Merlord.
Elithmar of Ar Ninglor, Extra Hand Weapon, Longbow, Shadow Armour, Dragonband Gem, Potion of Foolhardiness.

47 Sea Guard, Full Command, with Shields.

7x Sword Masters, Musician.
7x Sword Masters, Musician.
5x Yvressii Rangers.
5x Shore Riders, Musician, Bows.
8x Dragon Princes, Full Command, Potion of Strength, Razor Standard.

1x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower.
1x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower.


Army of Mists and Shadows

It was clear that whatever closed to that huge Sea Guard unit will be shot to pieces in no time, especially if backed by bolt throwers. So priority number 1 was to avoid that. I wanted to use the fact this big unit could target only one of my regiments per turn to my advantage. I didn't want to attack it from the front either. 5 fighting ranks and simultaneous attacks would see many of my small units perish if I did so. In HE vs HE fights I have already had I learned that it is more about the volume of attacks rather than sheer strength that wins the day. The problem was that this regiment, together with characters in it, was worthy many points and if I don't get it I will not be earning much elsewhere.

The same with hammer unit. Powerful on the charge and with long distance of operation it could smash through many units of my own. In one on one combats it was winning thanks to the presence of the general and thanks to good armor. What is more, one of my White Lion units has the Banner of Eternal Flame so I needed to avoid that combat too.

Rangers with Noble were another interesting choice and I was glad I have no stationary targets for them and that many units I had could limit their deployment options. Noble was also a good counter to my light horse if I wanted to use them to attack in close combat as I would usually do with more attack and higher strength as well as slightly better armor.

Repeaters are also a problem and I could expect small Swordmaster units to guard them. Heavens magic is very dangerous to my army as I have already learned so I needed to roll well on these dispels to avoid chain lightning and/or comet.

Outcasts High Elves - Army List

Army list for quick reference:

Archmage, Annulian Crystal - High Magic
BSB, Heavy Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Dragon Helm, Reaver Bow
Noble, Dragon Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Barded Steed, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster Shard, Pigeons Pennant

10 Archers, Light Armor, Musician
10 Archers, Light Armor, Musician
14 LSG, Shields, Full Command
15 LSG, Shields, Full Command

10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord, Amulet of Light
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord, Talisman of Loec
10 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
10 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Gleaming Pennant
5 Dragon Princes
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

With more deployment drops I wanted use it to my advantage. I planned to deploy archers first, at least 30" away from the Ele's deployment zone so that he could not move and shoot at them if they happened to be viable targets. If possible I wanted to target Swordmasters. The reason for that being they are the best targets for my missile fire, they are dangerous if left unchecked and could prevent me from charging bolt throwers.

I wanted to use my own heavy cavalry with a noble to hunt down Rangers as with their superior armor, greater charge range and higher volume of attacks they should be more than a match for them, even with a character.

Light horse would do their war machine hunting duty if they survived the shooting and magic. I wanted to use an eagle to support them and to use them all in coordination so that there would be too many targets to kill them all. With their speed I could also avoid Sea Guard.

Against heavy cavalry I decided to form a task force with 4 units. LSG to shoot at light cavalry that might support the hammer and to provide ranks to CR, in particular if they charged from the flank. Swordmasters with Loec and Lions with Gleaming Pennant would be the main hitters. Since we strike simultaneously I knew I had a chance to inflict enough wounds to kill the heavy cavalry and still have a unit or two to keep going. I decided to send Lions with flaming attacks against heavy cavalry in order to provide a bait if the eagle was not available (I could easily lose it to bolt throwers or magic, in particular when lore attribute is at play).

If I could get Flames of the Phoenix it would be great against such big regiment although I also knew Ele would do everything to dispel that. It also required to get into range of that unit so it was not without a risk.

Then if all worked well I might still have resources and time to surround Sea Guard. But if the fights I planned to fight proved too costly I would back off too. As always the best plans tend to crash in the contact with the opponent so I was curious if whatever I thought out could be realized in a real game.

Deployment


Deployment of the armies after vanguard moves and scouts placement

In the diagram above I also added numbers to indicate the order of deployment of both armies. 8th deployment drop was actually Swordmasters as indicated and entire Eastern flank plus characters since Ele's army was already arrayed for battle (with the exception of Rangers).

We treated hills as infinite height and blocking line of sight. Forests were magical and we rolled what kind of forest we have as soon as some unit entered the woods. Rocks with ruins in front of the hill on the South blocked line of sight on ground level and provided hard cover (but also obstructed vision) if the regiment was on the hill.

I started to deploy first regiment. I also won the roll off to determine who picks the table side and I decided to choose South.

Ele placed his general with Dragon Princes, Archmage and BSB with Sea Guard and Noble with Rangers. My own BSB ended up with White Lions and Archmage led the Eastern flank.

Respective wizards had following spells:

Evelo Maethor - Iceshard Blizzard, Wind Blast, Urannon's Thunderbolt, Comet of Cassandora
Archibald the Archmage - Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery, Fury of Khaine, Flames of the Phoenix, Vaul's Unmaking

The Outcasts won the roll off and they opened the game.

Outcasts High Elves - Turn 1


Quick attack on the East

Archibald gave a warning to the heavy cavalry commander that he senses some evil energy surrounding the wild forest but he didn't listen. As soon as he spotted movement among the trees he charged his small squadron to attack and proud knights charged at full speed. They avoided the treacherous branches which seemed to attack them as they rode with great skill but could not avoid all incoming arrows and one of them crashed to the ground. It was not enough to stop them however and vicious combat quickly erupted. Enemy rangers skillfully used surrounding forest to protect themselves from being impaled on lances but their blows were turned aside by fine armor. Both leaders fought in a challenge with no one getting the upper hand, although the Ranger commander seemed to be wounded. Despite their efforts Rangers could not hold for long against the pressure of heavy cavalry and fled.

(Note: While writing the report I realized that we made a mistake and Rangers should have held as they were stubborn in the forest )

In the meantime the rest of the army was quite busy too. Combined effort of the archmage and light cavalry saw majority of Eastern Swordmasters of the Yvresii army dead and remaining 2 withdrawing. Also Shore Riders were punished by missile fire for their recklessness.

Yvresii High Elves - Turn 1


Elessehta leads his knights forward while the rest of the army holds

Elessehta moves forward with his knightly bodyguards ready to charge soon. The rest of the army holds, trusting in their deep formation and shooting. Eagle Claws open fire at incoming light cavalry but despite heavy losses the riders refuse to retreat and press forward. Maethor calls to Heavens for a thunderbolt but his attempt is quickly stopped by his counterpart.

Outcasts High Elves - Turn 2


Light cavalry in the envelopment maneuver on the East

With support regiment of the enemy gone units on the West move to set a trap for heavy cavalry led by the general of Yvresii army. Archers aim at the second Swordmaster regiment and with the help of the BSB they kill some of them. On the West Archmage hits one enemy Swordmaster with a magic missile but his companion holds ... for a while.

Light cavalry uses its speed to attack the crew of bolt thrower and defeats them but their momentum in the uphill charge was spent and they could not reach the second war machine. Nearby Swordmaster decided to withdraw again seeing as he is surrounded by enemy cavalry from all sides.

Yvresii High Elves - Turn 2


Sea Guard defends their companions operating Eagle Claw

Sea Guard swiftly reforms, showing great skill earned during years of rigorous training, and unleash a volley at enemy light horse who stood no chance. Their companions from the second regiment immediately retreated to the safety of the cover provided by the nearby village. Remaining Eagle Claw aims at enemy heavy cavalry and half of the unit perishes but the survivors remain stoic.

Elessehta orders his knights to perform similar swift maneuver and races towards the center of the battlefield to avoid the obvious trap.

Outcasts High Elves - Turn 3


Magical punch

Regiments on the West moved fast to catch heavy cavalry with great eagle blocking its path. But the powerful blow came from the East. Seeing that enemy phalanx is occupied elsewhere units turned and marched towards it so that Archmage was in range to cast his powerful spells. First he fought a battle of minds with his counterpart and won. This opened the window of opportunity he didn't hesitate to use. He destroyed magic flowing in the bow of enemy battle standard bearer and then summoned the power of the Phoenix. Enemy archmage looked in horror as flames engulf proud warriors and at least one third of the unit perishes. Also lone Swordmaster could not avoid swooping Eagle while his companions on the West were again a target for enemy missile fire.

Yvresii High Elves - Turn 3


Sea Guard rearranges formation and faces the enemy again

Despite heavy losses Sea Guard reforms and stoic warriors form deep square while Maethor squashes the flames. The crew of the Eagle Claw aims at enemy heavy cavalry again but their armor saves them although one knight still falls down. Elessehta notices his maneuver was anticipated and that he will not escape the enemy so he orders the knight to charge the eagle and to reform into single wide line to avoid outflanking.

Outcasts High Elves - Turn 4


Outcasts attack simultaneously from the West and East

Seeing the opportunity to attack the general and his bodyguard of the enemy army the regiments on the West charge as one. Bladelord and Drakemaster deal fatal wounds to each other but the sheer number of attack from Outcasts prevails and soon Elessehta is alone surrounded by enemy infantry. He hacks left and right killing score of the enemy warriors but the pressure is too high and he has to withdraw. His steed takes him swiftly to safety but the enemy is close in pursuit.

In the center remaining light horse harass the enemy and distract them giving time for other regiments to close in. Heavy cavalry destroys Eagle Claw and use the momentum to get into the fight with the last enemy Swordmaster. Finally, the archmage unleashes the power of the Phoenix again and yet again his counterpart was unable to stop him. More brave warriors fell and their formation is not as intimidating as it was before.

Yvresii High Elves - Turn 4


Yvresii army is being surrounded

With enemy regiments all around there is not much Yvresii army can do but to brace for incoming impact. Sea Guard once more reforms and pulls back a little while Elessehta manages to take control over his steed. Maethor manages to wind blast the great eagle but noble bird fights off the air currents. Last Swordmaster fights well but he cannot penetrate the armor of his enemy with his blows and is run down.

Outcasts High Elves - Turn 5


Last Stand

Outcasts seize another opportunity and attack all around. Smaller regiment of White Lions attacks enemy general and nearby sea guard comes to their aid. Noble knight prepares to face numerous enemies but at the sound of war horns his steed bolts again and enemy infantry is left behind. But their light horse chase him too and he simply directs his panicking steed to the best direction without trying to stop. When another regiment of enemy Lions also joins in the pursuit it is clear that Elessehta will not return to the fight and his warriors soon.

Small regiment of White Lions quickly redirects their attack and charge in together with sea guard at the flank of the enemy phalanx. Heavy cavalry commander together with his last companion charge from another flank in a pincer maneuver. Such is a pressure of the attack that the enemy, heavily beaten by magic flames, cannot hold and retreats to be run down in pursuit.

After-battle thoughts

I would like to thank Ele for this game. It was his first 2500 game ever (and 15th game in general) with an army list combined from two smaller ones. He was unlucky in a few crucial moments, in particular in the case of not being able to dispel vauls and flames which cost him a lot and gave me a chance to win against his huge regiment. Despite that he took the outcome of the game with great spirit and I am sure he will do much better next time.

As we discussed after the game his army might have been a little too character heavy. He also helped me by spreading his forces while staying together is what he should have done against more numerous foe. He also learned hard way that Swordmasters do need some protection and keeping them as a second wave would have been much better too.

I am glad my plan worked. I also wanted to use LSG this time as fighting units if possible and I think both combats where they engaged the enemy showed the flexibility I wanted to use since the time I have them in my army list. In the fight against DP's their 2 ranks simply put the odds much more into my favor. What is more in that fight Ele rolled poorly for his own attacks and could not generate better odds for his general. One more turn would mean the units were too far to charge his sea guard in the end. In the second fight they disrupted the enemy and denied the steadfast which again was very important since I failed to kill his BSB. At the same time they had the means to deal with support elements of the enemy at range if needed.

I hope you enjoyed the report and please be gentle to Ele

Epilogue

The Magic ceased immediately after the enemy had charged what remained of the Sea Guard, they came from all sides, it was impossible to hold out. Ohta'relen had watched the enemy blades pass though his son, but he was insubstantial as the mist he was responsible for generating to guard Yvresse. He on the other hand had to rely on his trusty shield, which was awkward to handle with his lords banner. Speaking of Elessehta he had seen his horse shy from the enemies horn when they charged his flank. He had loaned him that horse because his griffon was in the Annulii doing whatever griffons did. Tiralya feared nothing, and could have turned the battle for them. Maybe next time.

With the magic over, Vanyion sought out Elessehta with a message from the Mages he'd been working with back in Yvresse. Apparently, he still had much to learn, and on his return to Yvresse he was to return to the Armis Kormalin to study more. In the meantime, he was to journey to Bretonia and search for some missing students and send them home. Apparently something horrible was going to happen there soon and Eltharion didn't want the young sons of the nobility involved. He did however want Elessehta involved, he'd have been judged good enough to compete against the lesser races found there. The Asur had once ruled that beautiful land, and nobody wanted it despoiled by Chaos.

Thanks for reading!

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

I normally play at 1500 points, and simply joined two of my lists together and adjusted it down to 2500 points.
I've since adjusted my three lists up to 2500 points, so next time it should work better.
The Sea Guard horde was actually pretty good, it had a psychological effect, all the units in the East either kept out of range, or out of sight.
I'm still failing my games in the deployment phase. I automatically put the Eagle Claws on the hill, I didn't even think about how to protect them.
The house made me chose either defend the centre or block the left, knowing how Swordmaster likes to do things, I should have dropped the Sea Guard on the East side, and then Ele and his Knights in the Centre.
I definitely dropped Elithmar II and his friends in the wrong forest. They could have camped out in the forest in my zone and guarded Ele's flank.
Turn three, after going around the Eagle, I found it in the way again, I resigned myself to fate and crushed it, then I reformed to cop it sweet next turn.
I play against other Asur factions all the time, and SM has it right, no re-rolling means volume of attacks is the only way to compete.
By spreading my line out, I gave myself the best chance I had with no lost attacks thanks to being in another rank.
By spreading out I also denied the Sea Guard a flank charge.
I rolled abysmally, as per normal, and the DPs did nothing, the Drakemaster scored two wounds against the Bladelord in the challenge, and Ele did the rest.
Looking back, if I had taken the bait T2, I could have crashed into his Flaming White Lions, they would have been pretty ineffective against all that Dragon Armour, sure I would have copped a Sword Master unit in the flank, but it would have been better than the combined charge to the face later.

I'm pretty keen to try this again, but with an actual list designed better. None of my lists are great(which is why I don't post them in the Lists forum), but each one offers me something different to do. I would love to play thi out in real life sometime, and next time I visit my friends in Canberra, I'll bring my battlefoam case, just in case SM gets some free time.

[DarthSabre]

Interesting army list of Yvresii High Elves in this one. I actually had to re-read the list because it seemed so small, even for HE.

Picture shows an impressive painting effort.

Given my poor results I maybe not one to comment but in my opinion;

1. Way too many characters in Ysreslii's list some of which I wonder what their role was.

2. No real heavy hitting units that could deal out significant damage.

3. Having one really large unit of T3 S3 troops open you up for magic destruction which was what happened here. Deal with the other units and ignore this unit till you have made it combat inneffective and you can cause significant problems which is what Yvresii may have found out. Trying to avoid mulitple units of HE's coming at you can be daunting as I found when playing Swordmaster - how and which to concentrate on?

4. Heavens does not seem an optimal HE magic law.

Not sure how this list could be competitive but look forward to reading others comments.

Always a pleasure to read reports as the narrative is good and truely adds to the reading.

Regards
Darth

[Elithmar]

4. Heavens does not seem an optimal HE magic law.

It's actually surprisingly good. Comet is useful against some foes and to control enemy movement, then the missiles are handy for ethereals and support units. The augments and hexes are handy, and can be a real pain as I found out yesterday against Ele. Flying units have to beware, of course.

As you already noticed, the rangers and Eli II should have been deployed in a safer place. It's a problem I find with scouts too that you feel you should make the most of their scout move, but it's not always wise.

Well done both of you, an interesting and entertaining battle.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

4. Heavens does not seem an optimal HE magic law.

About Maethor and the Lore of Heavens. Maethor uses this lore purely on fluff.
He is responsible for making sure Elessehta's Hawkship gets where it needs to be without hindrance.
Of all the lores this one is the only lore which fits the bill, the Lightning is also fluffy because one of the major gods of the Sea Elves is Mathlann the Storm God.
Heavens is also quite useful against other Asur, as Harmonic Convergence is the only way you get to re-roll something other than a Leadership test.
My other Mages have Lores for fluffy reasons too;
His brother Daggro uses Shadows, because they are part of the group that maintains the defensive fog and mist off the coast of Yvresse.
Vanyion of Tor Ilyria, is a Beastlord, mainly because he's on a horse, and of course, how else is a Mage who specialises in Beasts supposed to get around.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Playing armies with a theme is often more difficult. There are choices which are not considered good by other players. But it takes some guts to actually play with them anyway. The bottom line is that we all have our own approach to the game and each of us needs to find his own way. Even it if is true that some options are better than others I would disagree that they are useless. What is good for one might not be that great for another.

That is also true about magic. I know what Heavens can do to my army and it really takes 1 spell to ruin your day. Sometimes magic does not work spectacularly and with a single wizard it is even less likely.

Army list building and changes to it after lost game are usually the easiest way to do. But I think more important is to think what could have been done with the same army first. As well as trying to see what was good.

For example, in the tough situation where Ele was facing 4 units and an Eagle with one of his regiments he responded with wide formation which did have a chance to hold. His attacks didn't do enough damage though as he rolled below average. If he held one more turn and/or attacks were better then I would lose at least one regiment if not two. These regiments could have been crippled enough to make it very risky to engage again. And could be too late to get there. Would that win the game for him? No. But it was good attempt to recover from a mistake.

It does not mean army lists changes are not allowed. Far from that. Our armies evolve constantly due to the fact we fight new enemies and learn new things. We cannot include everything so we must make decisions what to take and what to leave at home.

I know I repeat myself but the best thing I have in that game is the fact that all of you play with different armies in the frame of a single army book. I played against 4 different HE armies at 2 tournaments and 2 more later. And none of them was like another, mine included. 7 different armies and there are more out there. Isn't it great?

I really appreciate all the comments and criticism as it is not about being right or wrong but more about talking things over so we all can do better next time. Keep them coming!

[Avicii]

Hey Swordmaster and Elessehta,

Really enjoyed the read, it always interests me to watch HE vs HE.... no re-rolls, what is this world coming to hahaha! Firstly I will congratulate Elessehta on a well fought battle and Master for a good win, it was always going to be hard for the big High Elf blocks to take on the maneuverability and speed of the MSU. I like the FoP component here Master was this one after a little inspiration? Thankyou heaps for numbering deployment, this will help me an unbelievable amount with my crapy deployment skills.

I'll mainly give a bit of input to maybe help Elessehta here. Heavy character armies for HE are always hard especially without eagles, and I have learnt that the hard way. Unless really it is more of a magic heavy character base like a Coven, I never see them earning their points back. Don't get me wrong though I love seeing HE playing armies to theme especially to make it more fun, and as long as you enjoy it keep at it.

I agree with Elithmar Heavens has always been an underrated lore and I have underrated it myself, but you can form a good strategy off the back of it looking at some of those spells, you were unlucky to not get Chain Lightening. Looking at the deployment straight up you could have formed a bases that you had the slight ranged advantage along with you having Iceshard and Swordmaster missing out on Curse. It pains a magic lover like myself to see two HE armies go without BoS , it can give a player a massive offense magic phase advantage. To me it would seem much more worth it then Razor standard, then you could replace Jewel with annuliann crystal and you get the best of both worlds (of corse you would have to maybe drop a knight or some LSG).

Just a quick plan Elessehta may have been able to follow (especially with BoS). You could have stood a little deeper with your Knight hammer further to the flank and hopefully with good magic you could have forced Sword master off his lines. This would give you a couple of turns at shooting his re-directors and hopefully take a few models of his combat units (mainly swords). Had this have been done successfully this would have nearly given your Princes free run at Masters nice combat units and being in such small numbers DPs would run through them with ease at In6 hopefully nobody will be striking back. That being said you got unlucky with your SW and SM but hey it is all the way we learn and you are already showing great skill at only 15 games!

Thanks again for the great battle and great story line guys, keep up the good work!

Avicii

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Avicii; you might be confused as to how ASF vs. ASF works. It doesn't cancel out, everyone swings simultaneously.

[Avicii]

Ah yes you are right, clearly I haven't faced this problem for a while. Maybe try to keep Iceshard on the DPs then ( -1 LD is Helpful too) would make them a lot more survivable in combat.

Avicii

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

I've played 16 battles so far and 9 of those have been against other high elf factions. I'm pretty used to not getting to re-roll.
And I prefer iceshard to go on shooting units, as I showed Elithmar Saturday night, his big block of archers were ineffective. Hitting on 6's or 7's, and thanks to curse of the midnight wind he was re-rolling all the hits. I can only imagine this working better against the lesser races.

[Avicii]

I did word that badly, what I was trying to say is use Iceshard to help the DPs once you charged, this would help them to take out units a survive through a few combats (SM hitting on 5's at LD7 yes please)! Obviously for the first couple of turns you will use it on shooty stuff but once you forced him close enough your plan unfolds. I really like the way you use heavens Elessehta, and not many people use it often.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

I was looking for the graphics long time ago and it is not as easy as I thought or maybe I am too picky Your phoenix, Avicii, is good one, as it does not obscure the unit but stands out nicely. In my first approach I was thinking about something like semitransparent flames with phoenix image so I will see if I can make it too!

I agree that BoS is a great item and very good addition but as always you need to make room for it. Unfortunately we cannot take it all. And army list tweaking is a constant process. For example, it was suggested to me that a single bolt thrower might be an interesting addition. So how to make a room for it just in theory? The same goes with some interesting items. Ring of Fury itself is great to have. Even without banner. Then I am also torn apart between having champions with cheap items or having more troops. Choices, choices

[Avicii]

Looking forward to your work Swordmaster .

Yeah as long as you feel that the magic items in your list work then that's all you need, clearly some items and models work better against some armies then they do others. A write up like your MSU write up is helpful because you run through most of the stuff you have already tried therefore people can learn from your mistakes. As for the RBT for you that is essentially a unit that you would have to drop? It would be good to test if they add some punch to your list, and I would be actually interested to see this Swordmaster?

Avicii

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

I really don't think a static element like an eagle claw would fit well, what I'd like to see would be that noble on an eagle and maybe some shadow warriors.

[Avicii]

With my 2400pt MSU list I dropped the DPs for a unit of Shadows and a T-chariot for a test game before the tournament, added a bit more versatility to the list. The only reason I took the DPs to my last tournament was because my SW aren't painted yet. The Chicken Noble also sounds like a good Idea!

[Jimmy]

Nice game SM and it must be nice to knock up a victory after dealing with this damn stunties.

@Ele - On your warmachines always make it a point to split them up for a number of reasons the first one being you're not likely to lose them both on one charge as the first one should not be near the second. The second point is if deployed in seperate locations your opponent as to react and it gives me more of a chance to get a flank shot.

15th game? Wow. You need to play less Borderlands 2.....

Thanks for the read.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

I normally protect the Eagle Claws a little better than that, but the house got in the way. What I need to do it stop automatically putting them on a hill ^_^

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Thanks for more comments!

I will try to come up with some modified versions of the army list just to chat about them. I am sure the army will evolve with such tweaks here and there. I will post my ideas in the army list section so that we do not go too far away from the main topic which is HE vs HE bashing

What Jimmy suggested can be one way of "protecting" the war machines and I am sure he knows what he is talking about since he uses double catapult set up with his TK. In our game I was indeed close to overrun into second Eagle claw but rolled low for it. Another option would be to deploy Swordmasters deeper, just in front of the bolt throwers. Thus whatever approached them had to face SM's first. With the hill behind them they would not obstruct line of sight but at the same time easy path would be blocked.

The lack of re-rolls to hit is huge. With many units hitting each other on 4+ even more so. Hence any help in that department is important.

Another thing I was wondering about with your army, Ele, is why didn't you try to run your general and your scout noble alone? The general has excellent armor save and with his mobility you could either tie up a regiment on his own (especially from the flank) or work as a team with two cavalry units. Scouting noble is more tricky as he could not easily deploy on his own and he didn't have much protection against shooting either so maybe the idea is not that good after all. Just considering other options and I know that single characters do provide nice counter to MSU. Oh, and focusing fire on single target (if possible) does help

Cheers!

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Deploying Ele on his own, didn't even occur to me, and now that I think about it, he could have done some good on his own. In turn two, he could have charged the Eagle and invited you to charge him, and then the DPs could have counter charged! I might try this deploying solo trick sometime. Not against my Empire mate though...

[Elithmar]

Yeah, it's always useful to keep open about the placing of characters. In my last cavalry prince game (against lizardmen) I ran both of my cavalry characters solo. This greatly helps against an army with a lot of units (MSU, lizards etc.).

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

You can even fool your opponent and still deploy with a regiment but then start moving it separately or charge it alone and then move the unit to another position. Starting with a unit gives you some nice protection and then when you are in combat you might not be targeted by some spells or cannons either. And even if the opponent takes that into account you still can keep him guessing which option you are going to choose.

[Hinge]

@SM-

I have not had a chance to read the report and am looking forward to seeing the impending clash between Ele and yourself. However, in looking over your deployment, I was once again struck by the same thought I had when looking at your last several battle reports and thought I would comment before knowing the results of this battle.

As a bit of a military history fan, I have always been keen on WW2. One of the strengths of the Panzer Divisions that the Germans used was their composition. They were not just composed of a solid mass of tanks, rather a combination of tanks, infantry (both mechanized and motorized), artillery, AAA, and combat engineers. In other words, each Panzer Division was a self contained army in its own right.

I have noticed you have a tendency to group units together in a similar fashion. For example, a LSG, WL, and SM are grouped together to offer mutual support and act in concert with each other. You then duplicate these “multi-part” units through your deployment.

Looking over the deployment for this battle, Ele has a solid, if conventional, deployment. Strong center with good support and excellent fire base, fast cav/scouts out front, and fast moving hammer ready to flank. As a whole, the army is mutually supportive. However, any unit that becomes isolated will be quickly destroyed, weakening the army as a whole.

With your MSU, you have really two armies, one on each flank. I am struck at how flexible and self contained each force is, capable of dealing with a variety of threats, and as a whole, holding out for a period of time against nearly anything that can be thrown at it. This approach can be subject to defeat in detail, however, Ele will not only need isolate each “division” but overwhelm them quickly. Given Ele’s force structure (not enough chaff) and placement of his scouts/reavers (should have gone center), this may be difficult for him to accomplish. Even if Ele accomplishes this, there is a capable force still remaining.

Just another random thought that is turning into a wall of text.

Now on to the bat Rep.

Hinge

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Looking through my old lists I find that my armies almost do the same thing. If I take one unit of Sea Guard, and Eagle Claw, a unit of Sword Masters, and a unit of Reavers, I consider each group of these as seperate. The only thing that doesn't fit is the Cav hammer. In my head, my army is three elements, group A, group B, and the hammer. I just haven't played enough games at this higher level to deploy each group in a corner yet.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

@ Hinge

Nothing like some inspiration from history! While I read a few books about WWII in Europe at some stage I preferred Pacific Theater. Maybe that is why I used the term "task force" when writing about grouping units together to accomplish particular ... task

I am not sure if I started doing that by chance but indeed at some stage I have noticed my little regiments try to form bigger groups from the simple need of supporting each other. I am glad you like that approach and thanks a lot for comment. The army (any army) is more than a sum of the components. I try to achieve that by using small regiments and for me it helps none of them is self-sufficient even if for some foes they can still be tough match.

What I also like about MSU army is that you can take the regiments and create these smaller groups or "divisions" in different configurations. Another challenge is to make these groups co-operate with each other too.

In the game against Ele both flanks started as separate fronts but they all were there to combine their efforts to go for a big kill.

Looking forward to your comments on the game itself!

@ Ele

You are correct, there are distinct groups in your army too. I think it can also be helpful in adopting to flowing course of battle as you can consider unit groups as a whole rather than particular units separately and then decide on the best action!

Cheers!

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Looks like I'll be trying 2400 points this weekend, it's a direct challenge so Elessehta will be fighting again. This time with his Griffon Tiralya. Mentheus is a Dragon Lord, so it will be a completely different challenge than You SM. But my list is also completely different.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Ele!

Griffon vs Dragon? Now that is what I call fantasy! I hope one of you will write a report, this sounds like a very good game already. What would be your army this time?

As a trailer I can tell that I will probably have a game against the guy named GuessRange from wargamerau and he is going to bring DE

Cheers!

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Of course a report will be written!
Ele's list is as follows:

Elessehta Silverbough on Tiralya, with Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, and Potion of Foolhardiness.
Vanyion of Tor Ilyria on Barded Elven Steed, with Fencer's Blades, and Jewel of the Dusk.
Evelo Ohta'relen, with Hand Weapon, Dragon Armour, Shield, Battle Standard, Reaver Bow,and Mask of the Merlord.

32x Spear Elves, Full Command, with the Banner of Swiftness.
19x Sea Guard, Full Command, with Shields.

7x Sword Masters, with Bladelord, and Musician.
7x Sword Masters, with Bladelord, and Musician.
5x Shore Riders with Bows.
5x Shore Riders with Bows.
7x Knights of the Storm God, Full Command, with the Banner of Ellyrion.

1x Eagle Claw.
1x Eagle Claw.

[Hinge]

Alas, not much to say about the game. I do understand that Ele had a cobbled together list that emphasized theme over competitiveness, putting him at a disadvantage against a general who knows his list inside and out and has been fine tuning its construction and tactics for some time. I would not disagree with some of the comments on deployment that others made.

Two mistakes I would point out were giving away the Reavers and scouts far too early. These were really his best to units to influence your movement and they were both gone by end of turn 1. The other mistake was not shooting the eagles. This would have been my first targeting priority. Again, it is about controlling the movement phase and you grabbed complete control early.

This leads to an interesting what if. With the Eagles out of the way, you would have been forced to use one of the combat units on the left as a diverter. Of course this is the strength of MSU, any one of those four units can step into that role. I think the interesting play would be to use the WL w/ the Flame Banner in this role. I have noticed that opponents can really get a bit of tunnel vision if you dangle an opportunity for them to use some special ability. It would take a great deal of discipline by an opponent to not want to take advantage of the 2+ ward v. flaming the Dragon Armor affords. You should be able to bait someone into a very bad position.

Hinge

[Lord Anathir]

ele had a building in the best position possible for this kind of matchup. If he puts the LSG and the DP in the gap between the building and the table edge, the rbt in the same place (or nudged a little to the right) and the swordmasters behind the LSG facing west to the other gap between the house and north table edge. SW or smasters can go in the building, and the reavers also behind the building for safety. Would be a tough nut to crack and the msu unit would get clogged with units tripping over each other to assault that small space, with the foremost unit eating LSG volley fire.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Indeed, forming a castle would limit MSU advantages and made the Yvresii army formation much more solid without worrying about my movement phase. Wait and shoot and don't worry about fancy maneuvers of the enemy - nothing is better like Dwarven approach