HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

Some time ago Gatti aka jwg20 came up with an idea of a super fast Vampire army. I saw it in action and I must say it is a sight to behold. It would be a great challenge for me to play against it. What is more I owned Gatti a rematch and we finally met on the UB-battlefield again.

Army lists and pre-battle considerations

Gatti decided to theme his army on Blood Dragons and I am really looking forward to seeing some of his conversion ideas taking shape. Other than that it is a flying circus army that hits like tone of bricks. It also shows how varied VC armies can be.

Vampire Counts - Army List

Vampire Lord, Zombie Dragon, Heavy Armor, Shield, Red Fury, Quick Blood, The Other Trickster Shard, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Preservation, Level 1 - The Lore of the Vampires
Vampire, BSB, Hellsteed, Heavy Armor, Red Fury, Sword of Striking, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, Level 2 - The Lore of the Vampires
Necromancer - Dispel Scroll, Level 2 - The Lore of the Vampires

50 Zombies
50 Zombies
39 Zombies
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves

4 Vargheists, Vargoyle
4 Vargheists, Vargoyle

Terrorgheist
Terrorgheist

It is a very interesting army. As I said it hits fast and hard. Each of the big guys is extremely dangerous because they can pack insane amount of attacks and some of them can thunderstomp, scream into combat and use a breath weapon too. They are easily capable of killing any of my units in a single turn. The army also has so many deployment drops it is not that easy to out-deploy it. Sure, one can always remember that to use the speed to the fullest the regiments need to stay close to the Vampire Lord but even then the fast elements can easily relocate and change the direction of attack swiftly. Fast dire wolves are excellent troops to block, redirect and simply sacrifice if needed and are quite dangerous on the attack too.

The army is also very difficult to contain as it flies. No blocking with my own units then. The units are also hard to harm with shooting because they are tough (terrorgheists, vampires, dragon) or difficult to hit (Vargheists, usually lurking at the back at the beginning) or simply too numerous (zombies). The weakness is the fact that only vampires have some armor to speak about so focused fire should do some damage anyway. Big footprint of the models could be used too as it is more difficult for them to have a good landing zone.

High Elves - Army List

I used the very same army list I played with in my last 2 games against Dwarves and Bretonnians, so it is just for reminder:

Archmage, Annulian Crystal - High Magic
BSB, Heavy Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Dragon Helm, Reaver Bow
Noble, Dragon Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Barded Steed, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster Shard, Pigeons Pennant

10 Archers, Light Armor, Musician
10 Archers, Light Armor, Musician
14 LSG, Shields, Full Command
15 LSG, Shields, Full Command

10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord, Amulet of Light
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord, Talisman of Loec
10 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
10 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Gleaming Pennant
5 Dragon Princes
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

I wanted to use my firepower to target Terrorgheists. The reason being that they have little armor and every wound caused means less casualties due to their screaming attack. I knew my units will be attacked quickly so I wanted to inflict as many wounds as possible so that even if I lose the regiment my enemy would be weakened and hopefully vulnerable to counter attack. In the case of inevitable fight against the Vampire Lord I planned to target his mount. The reason is that first, it confers that annoying -1 to hit penalty and second, it has only 5+ armor save. What is more, pedestrian Vampire is more easy to counter and with luck can be destroyed too. It would also push the opponent into defense since he simply cannot allow this character to die.

It is still a very tough match up for me and the fact I have never played against Terrorgheist while now facing 2 of them and Zombie Dragon made it very challenging.

The good thing was I didn't face 4th level spell caster but countering 3 of them when lore attribute helps to heal big guys in particular is not that easy either.

Deployment

Image
Deployment of both armies. Vanguard moves are indicated with grey arrows.

Hills were of infinite height and block line of sight. Rocks and ruins with walls attached to them were both difficult terrain not blocking the line of sight. It is also worth noting that Vargheists were in "moonwalking formation" not looking at the enemy thus preventing any premature charges.

Archmage joined one Swordmasters unit (SM1) while BSB was with another (SM2) and Noble led Dragon Princes to battle. Respective wizards had following spells:

Archmage - Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery, Curse of Arrow Attraction, Courage of Aenarion, Flames of the Phoenix
Vampire Lord - Invocation of Nehek
BSB - Invocation of Nehek, Curse of Years
Necormancer - Invocation of Nehek, Gaze of Nagash

High Elves won the roll off and they started the battle.

High Elves - Turn 1

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High Elves opening moves

Seeing that the enemy most dangerous regiments were positioned on the East and partially protected by the hill in the center of the battlefield, elven regiments from the Western half of their army formation moved at the double to reinforce their companions on the Easter front. Sea guard, light cavalry and archers, however, aimed at the dire wolves on that flank to prevent any outflanking maneuvers. The fire was very accurate and one pack of wolves lied truly dead.

On the West bow armed units moved into range and aimed at one of the Terrorgheists. Only Archers and BSB could fire and while archers could not find a weak spot in the monster's thick hide, BSB wounded it with his magic bow.

Vampire Counts - Turn 1

Image
Vampires do not lose time and take into air

All the regiments on the East move towards the enemy as one. They move fast but do not land that close to elven battle line yet. On the West Zombies and Dire Wolves attempt to charge one of the Reavers unit but Elves avoid the enemy with easy. Then the necromancer summons his power and surprisingly his spell breaks through archmage's defenses. As a consequence 5 swordmasters lie dead, struck by deadly magic missile. What is more that enables the evil necromancer to heal wounded terrorgheist.

High Elves - Turn 2

Image
High Elves perform preemptive strike

High Elves needed to move fast. First Ellyrian Reavers on the West charged Dire Wolves prowling in the forest and destroyed them. At the same time all available missile units targeted terrorgheist previously wounded and inflicted 3 wounds this time.

Swordmasters on led by BSB charged the Dire Wolves in front of them and easily killed all of them overrunning into the second pack just at the same time when it was hit from the flank by White Lions (Edit: Lions made 9+ roll to reach them). Another pack of wolves was destroyed but White Lions didn't have enough momentum to carry them into the flank of wounded Terrogheist (Edit: needed 8+ but failed). Another unit of White Lions also tried a long charge against the same Terrogheist but could not make it (Edit: needed 11+ but rolled 10). Even great eagle swooped down from the skies but despite its efforts could not pick the necromancer from the crowd of zombies and had to withdraw.

Archmage attempted to protect his warriors and irresistibly cast Shield on Swordmasters and BSB. The magical feedback wounded him and 2 sea guards. He could not breach through with his next spell though.

Vampire Counts - Turn 2

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Vampires counter charge

Vampire Lord ordered terrorgheist on his right to follow him and both hit White Lions. Brave Chracians braced for impact and were ready to inflict as much damage as possible but ferocious scream of the terrogheist killed 6 of them before they managed to swing their axes. 4 survivors wounded zombie dragon twice but were then mercilessly cut down by the Vampire Lord and his monsters. They overrun and this time Vampire Lord aided his BSB in combat against Archers who stood no chance and were also cut down to an elf.

Vargheists and wounded Terrogheist moved to the West and scream killed another 2 swordmasters. Magic was, however, completely shut down by the archmage.

High Elves - Turn 3

Image
Another attack by High Elves

Dragon Princes charged Dire Wolves and easily killed them all overrunning into Terrogheist at the time when it was hit by the Noble from the flank. Although it killed two knights the force of the knightly charge with some wounds inflicted crumbled evil monster to dust.

Second unit of White Lions, ashamed that they didn't catch the big monster spotted another chance for the glory. Vampire Lord landed close enough for them and they charged in, aiming to kill the undead dragon beneath vampire. The dragon was badly wounded and almost destroyed but iron will of the vampire held it together and in vicious counter attack, the dragon swung wildly, breathed noxious gases and stomped brave elves to the ground until none remained. Even Shield of Spahery could not save them. (Edit: I made 5+ roll for a charge but was unlucky to get 3 wounds from 8 hits when I needed 4 to kill the dragon).

All bow fire was not aimed again at the wounded Terrorgheist but 40 bow shots, including BSB's own magic arrows could not even wound the monster.

Vampire Counts - Turn 3

Image
Vampires regroup (red arrow for VL movement is a mistake, he didn't attack this turn)

Vampires regrouped and healed behind the hill. Both terrorgheist and zombie dragon recovered a single wound each. Vargheist and Zombies attempted to attack sea guard but elves withdrew. Healed terrorgheist screamed at Swordmasters with BSB and killed 3 of them.

High Elves - Turn 4

Image
High Elves reform their battle line too

Swordmasters form thin line daring Vampire and his monsters to charge them while Archmage cast protective spell on the bigger regiment. BSB aims his bow at Terrorgheist and wounds it but only once. Dragon Princes and Noble separate but it is unlikely vampires would fall for such an obvious trap.

Vampire Counts - Turn 4

Image
Vargheists find their target at last

Vampire Lord ordered fresh troops to attack the Elves and Vargheist obeyed without a second pause. Both units made it to the Sea Guard lines and few wounds they received was not enough to stop them. Elves were scattered and one regiment overrun into nearby archers charging them from the flank.

Vampire Lord himself and his pet terrorgheist landed in the middle of the battle field. Terrorgheist screamed again and smaller regiment of Swordmasters was utterly destroyed. Then necromancer stepped out and irresistibly cast his spell which summoned more zombies but also healed both zombie dragon and terrorgheist. As a reward, loyal necromancer was immediately transported to the Chaos spa run by slaaneshi daemonettes as was agreed in his employment contract.

High Elves - Turn 5

Image
Seriously weakened elven army keeps fighting

Both units of light cavalry charged cursed therrorgheist but they too could not kill it although the beast was wounded. One of the eagles charged zombies and kept them busy for a while. Elven BSB aimed at the Vampire Lord but managed only to wound the dragon.

Elven heavy cavalry moved forward with the Noble following them closely.

Vampire Counts - Turn 5

Image
Vampires keep pushing hard

Vampire Lord was not satisfied. He ordered his minions to attack once more. Zombies charged one of the Reavers unit from the rear but elven light horse escaped. Second unit wounded terrorgheist once losing one of their numbers and thanks to magically boosted morale they held. Even the scream was not that powerful now and claimed only one brave ellyrian.

Vargheists assaulted the building and despite inflicting heavy casualties they were pushed back.

Vampire BSB caught Dragon princes and their armor was not enough to save them.

High Elves - Turn 6

Image
Last act of valor by High Elves

With their army almost gone High Elves mustered strength for last act of valor and BSB led his Swordmasters to the fight. He himself finished cursed terrogheist which was responsible for dead of many brave warriors. He then challenged Vampire Lord but he didn't answer. It seemed that Blood Dragon was not that eager to test his skills against this opponent.

Few survivors looked for the shelter and light cavalry reformed knowing they will be the next target of the enemy's attack.

Vampire Counts - Turn 6

Image
Vampires hunt down some more elven units

With not many regiments left Vampire Lord decided to attack light cavalry. Ellyrians, knowing they have nowhere to run held and tried to wound the dragon but didn't succeed. Second unit had more chances to escape but was still caught by flying Vargheists. It was clear that forces of evil carried the day and only handful of survivors remained from elven army.

After battle thoughts

Yet another defeat :( At least another interesting game against unique army led by very good general so there is plenty to learn from it.

1. Deployment - as always it could be better. I wanted to split my forces because of the hill in the middle of the battle field so that I could start shooting at terrorgheist turn 1. It was not the best option I think, especially looking at the situation from the perspective of the battle. I would be better with my units all together, supporting each other better. So deploying on the Wast with infantry, characters in the building with Swordmasters as bodyguards and cavalry on the East seems like a better idea now.

2. Magic - I believe I have made a mistake by not choosing Vaul's Unmaking. I could do that but picked Curse of Arrow Attrraction as I thought it would be better for the shooting where I wanted to increase my chances of wounding and maybe even killing terrorgheists. However, a few items Vampires carried were dangerous enough and should have been a target for my spells instead.

3. Shooting - While I cannot complain about to hit rolls I was disappointed with inability to roll a single 6 when I needed it. In particular my turn 3. 40 shots at short range + 3 from BSB at S5 had a good chance to inflict remaining 3 wounds.

4. White Lions vs Zombie Dragon - I was a little unlucky here I think. Having 8 hits and needing 4 wounds was all I asked. But it didn't happen and I lost the unit. I was also considering charging with small unit of Swordmasters. Lions needed 5+, Swordmasters needed less I think so it was not that risky to try. I decided not to because I was afraid I might not make it with Lions and my Swordmasters would be decimated. I think it was a big mistake as even with that happening I would have intact Lions to use. And wounded Dragon would not be that happy to attack them. If that worked, however, I had a champion with SM's so I could even challenge and then the Lions would keep the Vampire Lord for one more turn when my Noble and Dragon Princes could have a chance to charge in too. I think that was the best opportunity I had to turn the tables but missed it.

5. LSG vs Terrorgheist - I had a chance to flank charge terrorgheist with LSG. It was already wounded. I had eagles to block zombies from joining the fight if I didn't kill it. I had quite good static CR to begin with (charge, flank, banner, maybe a rank) so it all depended on the thunderstomp roll. And with 16 3+ to hit with re-roll attacks I could wound it too (unless I rolled no 6's as with shooting). I thought shooting is safer and surer option as I have more hits and wanted to cast curse to increase the chances even more. I miscasted with shield though and could not make it. If that worked, however, I mean the flank charge, I would hit zombies in the flank. Maybe I should have risked that, together with the frontal assault from Swordmasters to make sure I also kill necromancer and have two combats resolved in a single turn. It seems that second "safer" option (first being Lions against dragon) didn't pay off. I guess I need to stay true to my own style and be aggressive :)

There are some other mistakes I made in that game which meant I was losing points for free. Not positioning noble properly meant Vampire BSB could kill my DP and I had no option to counter it with my character. He had a good chance to kill the Vampire as he had 4+ re-rollable/5++ against his attacks, while Vampire had only 5+ re-rollable. Not moving archers knowing he is going to overrun with Vargheists was another. Not blocking zombies with eagle to prevent rear charge at reavers was another.

In the end I have some remarks about my last 3 games.

I was playing against tough armies led by competent generals who knew my army very well (2 of them play HE too and Targ studies his enemies carefully). Hence I could not use the element of surprise. The armies I played against were different to whatever I have faced so far and my usual deployment or new ideas didn't really work well. All armies had tools to limit my natural advantages.

Deployment was mitigated by the castle that does not care about it anyway, and other forces are flying which also nullifies some theoretical gains. Not to mention that VC have many deployment drops too.

Speed and maneuverability were limited by shooting or much faster elements of the enemy. There were no flanks to envelope and spreading my line was more helping the enemy than me.

I guess it simply means I have to re-think my usual approach to the way I play games with MSU army and learn new tricks with it to surprise the enemy and to counter their counters :)

Thanks for reading! :)
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#2 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I saw some of this game, and UB is great and all, but I really don't like their dice system. I saw some shocking rolls, as I do every game I play.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#3 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

I played against this army! :3

I deployed/was out-deployed so badly I quit in the second turn. :lol:
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#4 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I don't play games at 2500 points on UB, they take so long it's not funny. But if I do, I'll be hitting you guys up for games cool? Swordmaster, I'd like to play IRL, and one day I will.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#5 Post by Lord Anathir »

Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:I saw some of this game, and UB is great and all, but I really don't like their dice system. I saw some shocking rolls, as I do every game I play.
Played a game against empire, rolled 1-1-1-1 to wound a steam tank from cannon and st shots -_-
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And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#6 Post by Jimmy »

I didn't give UB a second chance after it buggered a game up pretty bad for my brother and I playing over a few days but anyway, that's modern technology for you.

On the game SM that's a shame that you've been racking up the losses recently however you've already identified key areas you can improve on so you've taken away the best elements from the game.

It certainly seems though that the dice were against you well and truly in combat and shooting!

When's the next game scheduled?
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#7 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Thanks for comments!

@ Milliardo

You should have castled :)

@ Elessehta

I wonder what is used as a dice roll generator. But whatever they use it is not pure random number generator. Is it the reason it gives you so strange results sometimes? Maybe, maybe not.

2500 don't have to take that much on UB. Even when you chat with your opponent and spectators from time to time. It is of course differently perceived by players than those who observe. I have never felt the passing of time so much really. Sure, it does take longer than usual game. But I am still happy to play there as I have an opportunity to play more often and with people I probably might not be able to play otherwise.

So if you feel like it just send me PM and we can schedule a game. Hopefully it will not take long to arrange it although I must admit that some of the games I played had to be postponed and were meant to be played much earlier. I am also sure the opportunity will present itself to play IRL too :)

@ LA

Somehow when dwarven war machines shoot at my units that does not happen at all :)

@ Jimmy

I think it was not that surprising that I lost. Each opponent knows his army very well, they know mine too (Targ, Dwarven general I played recently openly admitted he carefully studied my games before he offered to play :D) while I didn't really have much experience against theirs. That sets the table in the way which gives a lot of advantages to my enemies.

It does not mean I arrived to the battle without hope to succeed. However, my plans were more experiments to see if my initial ideas would work rather than tested methods against these foes.

Sometimes dice didn't help but it only forces me to look for solutions that depend less on these rolls. I had a few good rolls too but not always when I really needed that. A good example is when I was shooting at Dire Wolves with Archers or LSG and needing 6's to hit I rolled five of them on 10 dice. Then all of them wounded and I got the unit in one turn of shooting where I simply wanted to thin them down. But I needed these 6's for to wound rolls rather and if only dice wanted to give average rolls then it would be already better.

I don't have a game scheduled for this week but I will definitely try to get one or two the following week.

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#8 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Yea, I'm not convinced it's random, it seems more based on averages. As long as it's bad for both players it's fair I guess...
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#9 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

I should have castled! There were some buildings though and I went "Ooh! Buildings! This'll be like Stalingrad!" but it wasn't... or maybe it was... in any case, it was pretty bad. :3

The dice generator on UB doesn't really bother me, if only for the the reason it affects both players. I think the reason I still don't like it is simply because I'm not touching models, and they don't look like the ones I've painted. When I start losing, or even when I'm winning, there isn't the same sense of build-up and then accomplishment as a real game. Still, its better than nothing!
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#10 Post by jwg20 »

Good game Swordmaster, as always. It was tricky getting points from you, particularly with a building and with the fact that most of your points are in characters.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. The LSG in the building were a waste. LSG gain nothing by being in a building (you lose arrows, you lose 5 As when charged, etc). I think swords are much better at defending a building (you gain 5As in this case). it would have made your mage much harder to get to, but by the same token it would have taken some killing power off the table for me to dance around :).

Otherwise, it was a tough match for you. You couldn't block me, and I could fly, so you couldn't trap me. I think it would have helped you if you were able to take down the terror with shooting, but the odds weren't actually that good (LSG were 5s to hit after reform, wound on 6s... BSB was 3 shots at 2+/5+) and you got 1 wound from the BSB. Sure 40 archers, but many of them were hitting on 5s, so thats 1 W out of 11 average hits. Not far from average.

I still think you should have tried to get your lions or DPs to charge them or tried to wipe them in combat with static CR. I separated them eventually, and that would have been a good time to pounce. Turn 4 I think it was I exposed my flank to your LSG, something I missed until your turn started (a mistake of mine) Ranked units on the charge can easily wipe a terror with only 3 Ws left in 1-2 rounds. Also realize, 15 LSG in the flank actually average more hits and therefore more of wounds than 40 shots hitting on 5+ does (40 shots on 5+ average just over 11 hits, 15 LSG with champ average just over 13 hits after re rolls and assuming you pass fear). Terrorgheists are horrible in combat, so a good way to counter them is ranked infantry or cavalry in a flank or rear (particularly if you're an elf and get those re rolls, its much more useful than shooting). The only way I can reliably win combat is with a good thunderstomp roll. On average, you would have crumbled me on the charge.

As for my mistakes (which I still made even though I won) were:
A) I was too reckless with my terrors. I should get out of the habit of giving long charge options to fragile units. They gain nothing, particularly if nothing you have can flee.
B) When your eagle tried to snipe my necro, I should not have pursued the eagle and instead reformed to face the rear of the lions, then charged in my turn. 10 lions will get ground down by zombies one at a time, and at worst they will at least weaken you and hold you up for a long time, unless you commit another unit to getting them free (which is even better IMO for my 150 pt unit of trash).
C) I should have checked which of your lions had banner of flame and sent my BSB into them. I had enough stuff to prevent a counter charge, and a 2+ ward would have meant I wipe you in 2 rounds without any legitimate risk. It would have saved a few wounds on my dragon and allowed me to use him more riskily.
D) I wasn't careful enough to remove any escape routes out of the building in turn 6. I should have moved my stuff in my turn 5 to cover all the exits. This was mainly because I simply forgot to check if it was turn 5, and was so excited for my vargheists to finally be charging his house (YOU'RE MINE NOW YOU TREE-HUGGER!).
E) While the zombies were great for providing pressure (imagine an ever-shrinking noose :) ), I should have tried to get them to him faster. 50 zombies could have ground down most of his units in a prolonged fight, particularly with invocations. It would have saved me from chasing all his units with vargheists and my flying characters, and left those heavy hitters open to take out the mage and the swordmasters that remained.

Oh, and one more thing about the dice on UB... it is actually 99.9999% true random (yes, 6 9s... i asked the guy who wrote the script, and worked it out myself as well based on his description of the code). People complain about numbers, but people blame dice in real games too (try to claim you don't ;) ). The difference is in real life its your dice, so you can either buy a new set for better luck or try to find dice that roll better in your batch.

In UB, its easy to blame the number generator for bad luck, but in reality, the generator is more "true random" than GW or chessex dice. A statistician professor and GW enthusiast did a study, and found that GW dice have a greatly increased chance of rolling a 1 and less a chance of rolling a 6 (I believe it was a 22% chance of a 1 vs the 16.66% chance it should be). Additionally, he found the standard deviation (the variation of the averages of each individual die over 1000 rolls) was significantly greater than you would expect from a "true random" generator mechanism (translation for the non-science oriented: GW dice are more non-uniform than casino dice, and consequently some individual dice are more likely to roll higher and others lower, but the overall average for his batch dice over 1000 rolls each each was lower than the expected 3.5, with a much higher prevalence of 1s throughout all his rolls. Though, some individual dice were not as prevalent to rolling low as others, as a whole the dice as a group averaged much lower numbers than we would observe under a true random situation. This outcome is caused by density variations within the dice material, the dimples for the numbers, and the curved edges). Look it up if you don't believe me, or keep track of your rolling in a real game vs UB over time. I think you will be surprised.

As an example, take for example the lions vs dragon. The second unit that came in averaged 8 hits and 8 hits should average 4 wounds, yes. But if you take it for all 14 lion attacks at the dragon (4 from the first unit, 10 from the second), he averages 10.5 hits, which correlates to 5.25 wounds. So on average, 14 lion attacks have a higher probability of dealing 5 wounds than they do of dealing 6 wounds to the dragon, though either outcome is possible. In this game, he dealt 5 wounds from the 14 lions that survived to swing. Seems pretty reasonable to me. :). Though I do concede that he rolled low for his shooting to wounds, but at the same time, he was rolling like a daemon to hit. Averages will be averages.

So if you want to blame the generator, blame it for being *more* random than you are used to :D.

Sorry for the tangent, but it bothers me when people complain about dice on that site, as I respect the guy that runs it and appreciate all the work he puts in to give up the best gaming service he can. I also trust his computer programming abilities which are way beyond mine, and mostly I trust his number generator which is as close as a computer can logically get to "true random" without lagging the system to freeze every time you roll dice.
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#11 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I love complaining about dice, and i have to say, my dice IRL hate me way more.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#12 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Gatti,

I was sending the link to that report to a friend of mine who is at the moment in his process of re-vamping his VC and it seems your army will be a great inspiration for him. I must admit it is also great for me to read your comments after some time from our game. They are fantastic and there are a lot of valid points. I need to make you to post more after the games I play :) I guess one way to do it is to play you and then make sure you win :D

On a serious note I agree with your remarks about randomness of the dice. It is just that feeling that they abandon you sometimes and while the odds might have not been that great when you roll 40+ dice and don't roll a single 6 you have a feeling that the potential was wasted. There are two ways to mitigate that. Make sure you roll more dice and create situations when odds are even better. :)

I will find some time for a re-match but I cannot yet promise when. In the meantime, would it be possible for you to create 2400 version of this army list? I would like to practice for the tournament with that points cap and I am currently checking who is available :) It seems I will be spoiled for choice already. :)


Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#13 Post by Findolfin »

Very interesting game!

Mr Gatti was always a gentlemen and fun opponent the few times I had a chance to play him and I’m a bit jealous you got to play against him! More seriously, he is also a fearsome general who is very good at using flying units.

I think the map here placed you at a disadvantage as it to some point forced you to split your army in two and impeded your movement. Your opponent seems to have capitalized on this and by using his advantage in flying and speed department. He was able to mostly ignore the terrain and concentrated his force on one side. Then picked off the remaining troops.

Many of your move were impressive, with lots of overruns to assist other independent charges, you got units to fight twice in cc a couple of times. I think the double failed white lions overrun(WL1) /charge (WL2) against that Terrorgheist in turn 2 really hurted you and stopped the great momentum you had.

Hitting home with both of these would have destroyed that beast and probably got the WL2 unit out of the dragon charge arc, probably even overrunning into theses Vargheist (V2). I’m confident they would have stood a chance to destroy theses too in the following round. It was probably a turning point since the following counter charge broke that flank of your army.

On the other side, it was many long charges and probably bound to happen. Do you think Ellyrion banner or the timewarp light spell could help with that? Also, I am not convinced that bow on your BsB really synergize with your army style. Your LSG and archers should be enough to take out chaffs, which in my opinion is the only thing we can expect from High elf missile fire to begin with :P

Anyways, still a nice demonstration of overruns combos despite that new "no-overrun" trough crumbling undeads rule. =D>
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Re: HE MSU - vs. VC 2500 - 23.09

#14 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Findolfin!

It was a great game against a great opponent. Gatti plays tough armies and he is very good indeed but at the same time the game is played in a nice way. So there is a challenge but you can still sip your beer comfortably :)

His army is one of the forces that is perceived as a very tough match up for my MSU and you could easily see why. I am still glad I managed to put up a fight and despite heavy losses it was not 20-0 at the end!

It was indeed quite difficult for me due to that middle hill which blocked line of sight completely. But then I could have deployed on the left too so that the house would guard my flank and the units would support each other better. Against fast army like this there is almost no room and no time to position the units better. It is often the decision "charge-be charged". Hence I risked these long charges with Lions sometimes. I am sure I could play it better but at the time I thought that I simply have to charge to take back the initiative. I can hurt his big models in one-on-one situations but when two monsters charge then there is not enough warriors for me to hold it.

That is also the reason why I was looking for these overruns and options for continued combats as that was my chance to even things out, in particular in the speed department. It didn't work this time, probably due to the fact I risked long charges/overruns but the principle is worthy exploiting. I need to work more on better deployment, that for sure, as spreading the forces does not work well against this fact army.

Ah, my two "favorite" words: synergy and chaff. :)

I really like BSB with his current set up because:

1. I can shoot with him separately and he is very good at hurting single characters (not all of them but still), higher T models such as chariots and last but not least, ethereal creatures. Something other troops cannot do while these 3 shots with his excellent BS6 are just great.

2. I am not so eager to get him into combat as he is not really suited for one and I often lost him before when I thought he can handle things. He is still quite dangerous as he is but with very little armor I prefer him to give re-rolls here and there rather than fight. My elites can do it very well anyway.

3. If you want to see what LSG and Archers and RBT and BSB together can do (not only to support regiments) then check out my Hammer of Dave tournament reports :)

As to the overrun moves and crumbling it will indeed change a lot but at the time we played the game it was not yet the case. Now one has to thing more how to handle those pesky undead :)

Cheers!
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