MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

I had another opportunity to play a game the very same day. This time I had a pleasure to fight against Vanyon and his MSU Dwarves!

Army lists and pre-battle considerations

As surprising as it may seem this army too can have a very interesting and successful list. I have seen MSU Dwarves in action once and it was enough to show me that they are a force to respect.

Dwarves Army List

RuneLord on Anvil, Shield, Master Rune of Balance, Rune of Stone
BSB Thane, Strollaz Rune
Dragon Slayer, Master Rune of Swiftness, Rune of Speed, Rune of Fire

10 warriors with Great Weapons, Musician, Standard
10 warriors with Great Weapons, Musician, Standard
10 warriors with Great Weapons, Musician, Standard
14 LongBeards, Shields,Full Command
15 Rangers, Musician, Standard
15 Hammerers, Musician, Standard
15 Hammerers, Musician, Standard
10 Slayers, Musician
10 Slayers, Musician
16 Miners, Full Command, Steam Drill

Cannon with Rune of Burning
Cannon
Gyrocopter

First of all Anvil of Doom. :) This thing makes Dwarves so fast and even let them charge in addition to march move. What is more, they can swift reform so positioning a unit out of sight of a Dwarven regiment does not mean it will not charge you. A very powerful combination! This army also starts the game closer to your lines than you think. Strollaz can make all unit in 12" from march BSB before the game start. Then Rangers deploy as scouts and on top of that we have a unit of miners. And don't forget about the Anvil :)

Also, with famous Dwarven resilience for magic I would be facing a strong opposition with more dispel dice than I had power dice. Shooting in this army is not as astrong as it could be but both cannons can awlays kill some from afar, especially if I position me regiments with exposed flank. Gyrocopter is, in my opinion, a very good weapon against my small units as by landing on the flank it can still cover a lot of models completely. It is important as it still suffers from 7th edition rule which means that partially covered models are hit on 4+ only.

I was curious about Dragon Slayer. Against my army he didn't have targets he likes to fight but being ASF too meant I might have troubles with him. :)

High Elves

Archmage, Level 4, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem - High Magic
BSB, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Radiant Gem of Hoeth

20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard
20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician

10 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
10 White Lions, Musician
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord, Amulet of Light
10 Swordmasters, Musician
5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Drakemaster, Foe Bane
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Bows, Spears
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Bows, Spears

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

I post my army list as a reference only.

Deployment

Image
Deployment after Vanuard, Strollaz and Scouts moves

Rangers and Hammerers wasted no time and occupied buildings. Busy in search for some ale, no doubt! The entire army deployed in refused flank formation. My plan was to use light troops to get to his cannons as quickly as possible. I had to run fast with Wester units but I was confident they can deal one on one with Dwarven regiments facing them. On the East I wanted Dwarves to come to me and seeing weaker link in the form of Warriors I hoped for an opportunity to charge and break through. If that worked I would have a clear path to anvil to make it busy in combat and stop striking the runes. That, in turn, would make Dwarven units much slower. Archers were to shoot at troll slayers as the most viable target.

The spells I got:

BSB - Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery
Archmage - Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery, Curse of Arrow Attraction, Fury of Khaine, Vaul's Unmaking

Dwarves won the roll off and the battle began.

Dwarves - Turn 1

Image

Lonbeards grew impatient at Hammerers inability to find any ale and kicked them out to search for it in the backyard. They resumed the search themselves as they remembered very well that the tavern keeper had some barrels for special occasions. They visited him not that long time ago after all, merely 200 hundred years but the wretched human was nowhere to be found. It seemed that Rangers were more successful as they refused to go out. The rest of the army moved forward although keeping the proper distance so that Dragon Princes would have to cover some ground to get to them.

Cannon crews both aimed at great eagles and while one was successful and even paniced nearby archers, the second one overshot slightly and they killed 4 Spearelves instead. Then the Runelord stroke his anvil and Dragon Princes armor proved to be too weak to save the knights and 3 of them fell to the ground. Their 2 companions refused to flee though.

On the West a young pilot was very excited and closed in towards Ellyrian Reavers then fired with his steam gun. However, to his dissapointment he managed to kill only one elf.

High Elves - Turn 1

Image

Ellyrian Reavers on the West didn't wait for Dwarven pilot to re-adjust his aim and attacked. They have never fought against such machine but since it was flying they decided to attack whatever made it fly instead of wings. Piercing the most fragile part of the gyrocopter worked and Dwarven pilot decided to flee before they destroyed his machine beyond the point of repair.

Other units on the Western flank entered dark and haunted woods. Corrupted trees didn't like the intruders and attacked elven warriors, many of which stayed in the woods forever.

On the East elven units moved back a little to encourage Dwarven units to come to them while light cavalry moved in column to pass by Dwarven units and charge the cannon as soon as possible. Elven Archmage and archers were extremely surprised to find out that none of them can do what do the best as spells dissipated before they were even formulated in archmage's mind while arrows normally travelling huge distances fell down from the sky at half distance.

Dwarves - Turn 2

Image
Dwarven battle line expands

Equipped with the newst model of a steam drill and guided by GPS (Grugni's Positioning Stones for those who think they know something about engineering :)) Miners had no problems in finding the way end emerged precisely behind enemy lines. As it was agreed before the battle they had to wait for the sound of the special rune which Runelord was supposed to strike. Somehow the signal was not coming and miners started to wonder if they arrived too early. But they had their orders and didn't attack without the signal.

The rest of the army widened the battle line and even Rangers emerged from the building. Cannon crews aimed at elven units but this time the Western crew performed better, hitting their target, while Eastern cannon shot was too short.

High Elves - Turn 2

Image
Dragon Prices attempt to break through and fail

Dragon Princes charge warriors who elect to retreat. As it happens elven knights had to stop their gallop as both hammerers units close the gap and it was clear that heavy cavalry is not fast enough to break through. Fortunately smaller unit is still in position to exploit the opportunity and escape the encirclement. A little further to the East Reavers position themselves for a charge being careful not to get into range of a grapeshot.

Their companions on the West once again charge Dwarven pilot but he is more careful this time and none of the sides can get an advantage. Western elven units escape from the wild forest not wanting to risk any more damage. Then disaster struck. Not only elven archmage could not cast a relatively easy spell with low amount of power but seeminlgy harmless magic had a powerful feedback effect. As a consequence many Spearelves died in resulting explosion and elven archmage simply disappeared. Although shocked, survivors remained steadfast and it was up to Battle Standard Bearer to lead elven army now. (Edit: I wonder how many times I can get double 6's casting Shield of Saphery on 2 dice. It is third time with the same spell and with the same amount of dice when it happens to me recently and each time I managed to kill my archmage #-o )

Archers aim more carefully and 3 troll slayers met their ancestors.

Dwarves - Turn 3

Image
Dwarves decided it is time for an attack!

Although elven archmage was not able to break through dwarven magical defences just yet they were happy he was gone. It was good time for an attack too and regiments on the East grabbed their weapons and charged. Hammerers and Rangers attacked Dragon Princes who elected to hold to buy more time for other units and draw Dwarves deeper into their own lines. Only hammerers made it and after exchanging some blows and casualties on both sides the fight continued as Caledorians refused to give ground.

Second Hammerers and Miners charged Spearelves who fough bravely and even managed to kill 5 miners but could not withstand the blows and pressure and broke. They fled the battlefield and both Dwarven units reformed.

Cannons aimed at Swordmasters and no less than 4 warriors of Hoeth were knocked down. Also one Ellyrian Reaver was unsaddled by the power of the Anvil. The only good thing for Elves happened on the Western flank where second unit of Reavers finally managed to destroy Gyrocopter and reformed to face a new target - the cannon.

High Elves - Turn 3

Image
Elves attack back!

Elves decided that the best defence is offence and attacked too. On the West great eagle and Reavers charged the cannon. Two members of the crew were killed but the third one happened to be a kung-fu adept and with his surprisingly fast sponge attack technique manged to unhorse one elf. He then stood on the top of the cannon and taunted his adversaries in the way that would make longbeards blush.

White Lions charged warriors with ferociousness of the chracian big cats and few survivors fled only to be run down. Chasing White Lions hit the flank of troll slayers who readied their axes as it seemed they finally found worthy foes. Who would have thought that elves can fight with proper weapons as befit true warriors?

On the East another reaver unit destroyed cannon crew and tried to use the impetous of their attack to get into Anvil but it was still out of reach. Two Dragon Princes moved forward fast to assist light cavalry in their attack while their comrades fought bravely but this time could not withstand punishment of great hammers. Seeing this, Archers decided to avenge them by shooting at troll slayers and more red hair maniacs lied dead on the grass.

Dwarves - Turn 4

Image
Will the Eastern units of Dwarven army be able to rejoin the fight?

Dwarven regiments who secured Eastern flank now moved at speed to help their companions on the West. Their situations didn't look good. Troll slayers could do nothing against White Lions but bonded by their oaths they kept fighting until death claimed them. Brave cannon crew member also had to eventually fall down against numerous foes.

Runelord shed a single tear for his fallen warriors. His guards readied themselves for the inevitable attack of elven cavalry and didn't even notice that their master put down his hammer, stepped on the anvil and took the great hammer he used long time ago to smash orcs heads. He has done his part as a runesmith, now it is time to get things close and personal.

High Elves - Turn 4

Image
Elves continue their attack

Ellyrian Reavers on the West charge troll slayers fighting White Lions to make sure dwarven unit is utterly destroyed. Victorious Lions reform then to face Dragon Slayer and his 3 suriving companions. On the East elven cavalry attacks the Anvil and their charge hits home with such power that only Runelord is left to strike back. He kills one Reaver and holding his hammer in powerful grip awaits another attack.

While Eastern flank belongs to Dwarves now it seems Western part of the battlefield is secured by Elves.

Dwarves - Turn 5

Image
Is the Anvil really destroyed?

Dwarves tried to re-arrange their battle line to meet Elves again but without encouraging sound of anvil and slightly tired after their constant pursuit after the enemy they were still too far away.

Dragon Slayer charged alone against second unit of White Lions choosing his most worthy opponent to find a good death. Remaining Troll Slayers did likewise and awaited the charge of chracian hunters.

Longbeards, enraged at the disrespectful attack on their sacred artifact emerged from the building led by their Battle Standard Bearer. But to their horror puny Elves managed to kill venerable Runelord! (Edit: As we found out after the game we made a mistake. I believe it was due to the fact that Vanyon had a chain of unlucy rolls of so many 1's that when I inflicted 2 more wounds he took away his Anvil while in fact it had still one more wound left).

Dragon Slayer kills one White Lion but is wounded too and the fight continues.

High Elves - Turn 5

Image

White Lions kill troll slayers but are a little too enthusiastic in their charge and its impetous carries them too far away from longbeards flank. Swordmasters aid another White Lions but chracians shout the warning that is not their business and warriors of hoeth just make a circle around fighting axeman without harming Dragon Slayer. He kills more Lions but the last one from the unit inflicts fatal wound and Dragon Slayer finally meets his death.

The eagle lands in front of the fuming Longbeards to dsitract them. While archers managed to kill a warrior or two.

Dwarves - Turn 6

Image
Last attack of Dwarven army

Frustrated Dwarves make a last attempt to attack. Longbeards charge eagle, make it break and then chase it down. Warriors on the East try to charge Dragon Princes to avenge their Runelord but they are too tired to make it. Another warriors charge archers but they withdraw and they are now in a very bad spot. Can they still survive?

High Elves - Turn 6

Image
Last word belongs to Elves

The battle is almost over but Elves are determined to show who got the upper hand in the end. First, Swordmasters charge warriors on the West but they flee. Seeing this, elven BSB urges his Spearelves to attack unaware Dwarves and they manage to catch them from unsuspected direction and destroy them.

Dragon Princes saw an opportunity to charge the flank of Longbeards who tried to reform to face a new threat but were also attacked through the woods by another unit of Swordmasters. Elven Drakemaster calls out for a challenge and Dwarven BSB accepts proudly. It was his undoing, however, as Drakemaster's heriloom and enchanted blade prooves too much even for gromril armor and brave Thane was dead. Swordmasters swung their great blades with unnatural speed they were famed for and only 4 Longbeards remained alive. Survivors lost heart and chose death than to live in shame that they were too late to save Runelord and then lost their battle standard too.

After-battle thoughts

That was a very interesting game and I would like to stress out that Vanyon is a great opponent. If you meet him on UB do not hesitate to offer him a game. It will be an interesting one for sure!

As to the thoughts after the game here is my summary:

1. I was really sad to find out about the mistake with Anvil. First of all I didn't expect such a unlucky chain of rolls Vanyon had. Even with foe bane, which helps to wound tough opponents he still had his 2+ armor saves. And he kept rolling 1's. :( In the end I think that I had good chance to inflict that last wound eventually and his other units were to far away to help. I had second reavers and/or eagle to try and add some attacks too. It is of course hard to tell if that helped to get last wound. I just wish this mistake didn't happen. I guess we need a proper re-match to settle it down. :)

2. Looking at my deployment I think I could have done much better. I should have exchange one Swordmasters with Dragon princes if not even put both heavy cavalry on the Western flank. They are fast and can deal with units such as warriors or slayers as good as elite infantry. On the other hand Swordmasters are a good match for any Dwarven unit, even if they are initially stronger. Also placement of Eagles was bad. I should at least position them in such a way that it would not be possible to shoot at them and a unit behind them.

3. I am very happy with Ellyrian Reavers as they performed their war machine hunting very well. Two units are more fun than one for sure! :)

4. Detonation of my Archmage was bad luck but I doubt I would be able to do much as long as the Runelord lived. However, in the last turns his ability to cast Fury of Khaine could grant me extra opportunity to inflict some damage on Dwarven units. I have a feeling that if you want a spell to be cast you need to roll 6 dice and then hope for the good result on the miscast table. It is risky approach and I didn't have to do so as I would be ok without some spells in action. But if I were closer to Runelord I would definitely attempt to cast Vauls Unmaking to destroy his Rune of Stone. 3+ armor save is always worse than 2+

5. I think Vanyon made a mistake by moving his Longbeards out of the building and I believe he said so on Bugman's Brewery in his report from that game (yes, you have two reports from the same game ! :)). It gave me an opportunity to attack him and I earned a lot of points by defeating the unit and destroying his BSB.

6. His gyrocopter can be used more efficiently. I made a mistake with my vanguard move as I left him space on the flank where he would be safe from charge and also his steam cannon had a batter shooting position. He told me it is due to lack of experience with it so I assume next time his performance will be much more dangerous to my units :)

7. MSU Dwarves are great fun to play against but do not make a mistake and do not underestimate them just because they do not castle and don't have a lot of shooters. They are still very dangerous but much more interesting to play against as they use the movement phase as efficiently as any other MSU army. I defnitely had a tough game and after first half of the game I thought I will not be able to fight back.

Thanks for reading! :)
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500

#2 Post by krysith »

This is one of the most intriguing battle reports I have read in many a moon. Not only did you put great color into your descriptions of the battle, but it was an interesting game against an army type which is rarely seen. I have been following the discussion on Bugman's about whether Dwarf MSU was competitive - this game should really add to that conversation!

"They visited him not that long time ago after all, merely 200 hundred years but the wretched human was nowhere to be found." - awesome! :D

I agree that the longbeards leaving the building too late to protect the anvil was the pivotal move (or non-move) of the game.

I thought it was interesting when I first looked at deployment and saw that you had put all your cavalry close to the enemy and your infantry farther away. It seemed like you were prioritizing warmachine hunting, even though his army wasn't warmachine heavy. If you had completely swapped the east and west orientation of your units (still keeping the ER on the flanks), you would have been able to have both your infantry and cavalry get into combat with his combat units at the same time, providing significant force concentration. That way you could have hit the east side with all your troops at once and won the portion of the field closest to the warmachines.

I also note that occupying the buildings wasn't doing Vanyon any favors. All it did was prevent him from moving his units where he needed them, such as blocking ER1 and getting the longbeards to the anvil quickly. You had little shooting he needed protection from, and I don't think it served him well. He should have treated the buildings as obstacles, filling holes in his line.

Could you have charged the cannon2 with ER1 on turn 2? If so, it would probably have been worth it. From the diagram it looks like they had line of sight and range. You don't really need a combat formation against a warmachine.
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Haha! I'm guessing that the codename for this will be [i]Operation Evil Bumrush[/i].
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500

#3 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Wow, what an aggressive Dwarf army! He used Concentration of Force well, but with an army like yours, being so spread out, it didn't work so well for him, you did the classic envelopment so well. His taking of the right side, and then turning to meet you basically turned the game into a battle for the pass ^_^

Your dice, get rid of them!
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500

#4 Post by Elithmar »

I saw this on Bugman's. Really unusual, great!

Well done on the win, sir. Are MSU HE better than MSU Dwarfs then? ;)

I'm hopefully going to be playing against Vanyon on UB on Saturday. He's a really good opponent, I met him at the War of the Beard event. Can I just reiterate this:
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Vanyon is a great opponent. If you meet him on UB do not hesitate to offer him a game. It will be an interesting one for sure!
;)
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500

#5 Post by Nicene »

I suspect that High Elves and Dark Elves (possibly Wood Elves?) are probably uniquely suited to MSU lists in 8th edition. Dwarves just don't kill things fast enough, and their movement/charges seem too unreliable in my opinion.

I don't think the Dwarf army book has the tools to go toe to toe with High Elves in small units. You saw how his units of Trollslayers/Hammerers fared against your WLs/SMs (I assume these units were of similar cost). The Anvil is certainly a powerful asset, but it seems too random and unreliable. I suspect the key to MSU is speed, reliability, and hard-hitting units with small footprints.

Finally, very well-played game! Your Reavers, especially, did much better than I expected them to. I'm curious ask about those combats with the Gyrocopter, cannons, and Anvil especially. Did they win due to good luck/rolls, or were they confidently winning those fights?
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=61399]my MSU army list/battle reports[/url]

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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500

#6 Post by Jimmy »

Hey SM,

Thanks for the battle report. I'm loving your MSU army approach.

Question - Dwarf Turn 3 the Miners and Hammerers charged your spearelves and they fled off the battlefield - wouldn't they have fled from the miners who had more ranks or did you kill enough of them to prevent this?

Awesome game though, initially I didn't think you had much left after the Archmage popped however you turned it around and really took it to the Dwarfs. But like you pointed out your magic was never going to be a deciding factor until the Anvil was taken out of the equation.

Great use of the cavalry elements of your forces!
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500

#7 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for comments! :)
krysith wrote:This is one of the most intriguing battle reports I have read in many a moon. Not only did you put great color into your descriptions of the battle, but it was an interesting game against an army type which is rarely seen. I have been following the discussion on Bugman's about whether Dwarf MSU was competitive - this game should really add to that conversation!
Thanks! I am really glad to hear that! I even posted the report on Bugman's as we agreed with Vanyon but it seems Dwarves are not hasty and are still debating :)
krysith wrote:I agree that the longbeards leaving the building too late to protect the anvil was the pivotal move (or non-move) of the game.
Vanyon said the same. He mentioned he got emotional after rolling so many 1's with the Anvil and imply wanted to do something :) I am sure he will be more disciplined next time :)
krysith wrote:I thought it was interesting when I first looked at deployment and saw that you had put all your cavalry close to the enemy and your infantry farther away. It seemed like you were prioritizing warmachine hunting, even though his army wasn't warmachine heavy. If you had completely swapped the east and west orientation of your units (still keeping the ER on the flanks), you would have been able to have both your infantry and cavalry get into combat with his combat units at the same time, providing significant force concentration. That way you could have hit the east side with all your troops at once and won the portion of the field closest to the warmachines.
Somehow I was not sure if I could deal with his elites and decided for a break through with faster but also hard hitting Dragon Princes through his warriors. I almost made it :) I indeed wanted to get to warmachines asap simply because they can still be very dangerous, especially when I start exposing flanks to them. They can easily take entire rank in one shot. Besides, as it happened in the game, it gave me an opportunity to keep the anvil busy earlier.

Looking at the game again I agree that the deployment you described would be more beneficial. I know Vanyon initially planed to wait for me but got aggressive instead. Even if he didn't go that far with his stronger flank I would be in good posotion for an attack. He would be reluctant to attack my Swordmasters with single unit of his elites (which I should exploit too) and that could help to build some pressure. Also, having cavalry on the other wing would give me the opportunity to attack his weaker flank and break through as well if I chose to do so.
krysith wrote:I also note that occupying the buildings wasn't doing Vanyon any favors. All it did was prevent him from moving his units where he needed them, such as blocking ER1 and getting the longbeards to the anvil quickly. You had little shooting he needed protection from, and I don't think it served him well. He should have treated the buildings as obstacles, filling holes in his line.
Good point indeed. Maybe he was counting on the fact that it is a better defensive position against my elites? I am not sure, really. Or maybe it is just his habit :)
krysith wrote:Could you have charged the cannon2 with ER1 on turn 2? If so, it would probably have been worth it. From the diagram it looks like they had line of sight and range. You don't really need a combat formation against a warmachine.
I am not sure I could do that as at some stage I had to wheel with that column and I was on the edge so there was no space to do so. I could only charge forward. I would have done so if I thought it is possible.
Tiralya wrote:Wow, what an aggressive Dwarf army! He used Concentration of Force well, but with an army like yours, being so spread out, it didn't work so well for him, you did the classic envelopment so well. His taking of the right side, and then turning to meet you basically turned the game into a battle for the pass ^_^
I really like that battle because all the things you have just mentioned happened, it created a very dynamic game and it was unlike anything against Dwarves you are used to fight against. :)
Tiralya wrote:Your dice, get rid of them!
I was thinking about that :) You see, I used this set of dice for more than 10 years now. I wonder if time and usage simply do not affect it too in a way. They get rid of dice in cassinos after some time after all! But how do I get rid of dice while playing online? :-P
Elithmar of Lothern wrote:I saw this on Bugman's. Really unusual, great!

Well done on the win, sir. Are MSU HE better than MSU Dwarfs then? ;)
Against which army? :)
Elithmar of Lothern wrote:I'm hopefully going to be playing against Vanyon on UB on Saturday.
Yes, Vanyon mentioned you have scheduled game but apparently you haven't decided yet as to which army you are going to use :)
Nicene wrote:I suspect that High Elves and Dark Elves (possibly Wood Elves?) are probably uniquely suited to MSU lists in 8th edition.
Fortunately that is not the case :) I saw Warriors of Chaos MSU in action when it defeated new VC with Ghoul King on terrorgeist backed by two more of these annoying and screaming monsters. Smith is doing great with his MSU Empire and he too used MSU Dwarves with success. I also saw O&G MSU army with two Giants playing good game.

In theory every army has units to play MSU style. In practice it means some armies go for a shooting/combat avoidance version of it. Wood Elves, Lizardmen, DE with Shades and Dark Riders are good examples of that.
Nicene wrote:Dwarves just don't kill things fast enough, and their movement/charges seem too unreliable in my opinion.
Why do you think so? And what exactly do you mean by unreliable movement/charges?
Nicene wrote:I don't think the Dwarf army book has the tools to go toe to toe with High Elves in small units. You saw how his units of Trollslayers/Hammerers fared against your WLs/SMs (I assume these units were of similar cost). The Anvil is certainly a powerful asset, but it seems too random and unreliable. I suspect the key to MSU is speed, reliability, and hard-hitting units with small footprints.
You are right about speed, reliability and hard-hitting units. Surprisingly (or not :)), Dwarves can have it all! It just works a little bit different for them.

Speed - they have Strollaz, scouting Rangers, Miners and Anvil to help them get to their foe faster.

Reliability - they have unbreakable and stubborn troops to hold when needed

Hard-hitting units - all GW units are great :) And troll slayers can be quite useful against monsters too.

They might not be that good against HE in one on one fights against Swordmasters and Lions (and in some cases against DP) but then it is up to a player to create such opportunities that he does not have to.

Finally, I don't quite understand why people claim Anvil is unreliable. You have it working on 2+ and there is nothing you can do to stop it (apart from charging it). It can make that unit on your flank to charge you (as miners usually do) or hit you and slow you down. It can be more risky when you use ancient rune but you don't have to be greedy :) Where is randomness in it?
Nicene wrote:Finally, very well-played game! Your Reavers, especially, did much better than I expected them to. I'm curious ask about those combats with the Gyrocopter, cannons, and Anvil especially. Did they win due to good luck/rolls, or were they confidently winning those fights?
Cheers! I am glad you enjoyed it! As to combats, let's see:

1. Gyrocopter - during the charge I have 3 S4 attacks which hit on 4+ with re-roll and then I wound it on 5's plus horses and after that on 6's. It does not seem great but it has only 2 attacks back. It also has 4+ armor save which he failed this time. A little luck on my part? Yes. Something very difficult to achieve? Not really :)

2. Cannons - this time it is even better as all reavers fought and there is no armor to speak about, hence I expected to win these combats relatively quickly.

3. Anvil - that was unlucky on my opponents part. On the charge I had 2 S5 attacks with DP, 3 attacks from drakemaster always wounding on 2+ but not modyfying armor save and 4 S4 attacks from reavers plus horses. In general with so many attacks and some with S4 or 5 I could get that 1 or 2 wounds on the charge. The unlucky part was in subsequent round when I had S3 attacks only so he was saving everything on 2+. In protracted combat I expected I would be able to inflict a single wound once in a while and as runelord has only 2 attacks I could keep it buse for some time. It was definitely lucky to inflict 4 wounds in only 2 rounds of combat.
Jimmy wrote:Hey SM,

Thanks for the battle report. I'm loving your MSU army approach.
Cheers! :)
Jimmy wrote:Question - Dwarf Turn 3 the Miners and Hammerers charged your spearelves and they fled off the battlefield - wouldn't they have fled from the miners who had more ranks or did you kill enough of them to prevent this?
No, I killed 5 :!: miners so Hammerers were bigger unit after the combat.
Jimmy wrote:Awesome game though, initially I didn't think you had much left after the Archmage popped however you turned it around and really took it to the Dwarfs. But like you pointed out your magic was never going to be a deciding factor until the Anvil was taken out of the equation.
It didn't look good for me in general and exploding Archmage simply added insult to injury :) I would still try to cast some spells with low number of dice anyway, so losing Archmage was simply unfortunate. Not to mention the fact that when it happens you can only think about free 400VP you just gave to the enemy :)
Jimmy wrote:Great use of the cavalry elements of your forces!
Thanks! I like cavalry a lot and although I am not using cavalry prince anymore I am glad I have fast units in the army too. They are very useful and their speed is definitely an asset.

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500

#8 Post by Elithmar »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Elithmar of Lothern wrote:I'm hopefully going to be playing against Vanyon on UB on Saturday.
Yes, Vanyon mentioned you have scheduled game but apparently you haven't decided yet as to which army you are going to use :)
I've decided to take my High Elves. I was thinking about Tomb Kings, but I've never played with them before so I decided not to. ;) Anyway, I want Elithmar and his army to crush some Dwarfs to avenge my defeats at the WotB event. ;)

Regarding the MSU talk, I think undead armies are really impossible to play as MSU. TK, maybe, with just chariots and some constructs etc, but I don't think VC would work. As far as I know they'd have to take skellies zombies or ghouls as core, who in small numbers will crumble.
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500

#9 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

We had a great re-match with Vanyon and his MSU Dwarves and I am happy to present yet another report from that unique encounter. Vanyon is still searching for his perfect army list and made some significant changes. I made some little addition too (thanks for suggestion Tiralya!).

Army lists and pre-battle considerations

Vanyon was not happy with his Gyrocopter last game and he also mentioned that he has problems with two things: small and fast enemy units and missfiring cannons. Hence the changes to his army list were to counter that.

Dwarves Army List

RuneLord on Anvil, Shield, Master Rune of Balance, Rune of Stone
BSB Thane, Rune of Stone
Dragon Slayer, Master Rune of Swiftness, Rune of Speed, Rune of Fire

10 Quarrellels with Great Weapons, Shields, Musician, Standard
10 Quarrellels with Great Weapons, Shields, Musician, Standard
14 LongBeards, Great Weapons,Full Command
15 Rangers, Musician, Standard
15 Hammerers, Musician, Standard
15 Hammerers, Musician, Standard
10 Slayers, Musician
10 Slayers, Musician
15 Miners, Musician, Standard
15 Miners, Musician, Standard

Cannon, Rune of Burning, Rune of Forging
Cannon, Rune of Forging

So, laser guided cannons. They were good before, they are going to be even better now! Any of my unit is also quite vulnerable to crossbows so I had to come up with some good idea how to counter that. Moving fast on flanks can help but then I could meet a welcoming party of some miners showing up when I really don't want them to show up yet :) With two units the chances of at least one emerging early in the game are much higher. I didn't know, however, that in order to accommodate these changes and additions Vanyon had to give up Strollaz and I deployed in a way that took into account his early move.

High Elves

Archmage, Level 4, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem - High Magic
BSB, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Radiant Gem of Hoeth - High Magic

20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard
20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician

10 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
10 White Lions, Musician
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord, Amulet of Light
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord, Talisman of Loec
5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Drakemaster, Foe Bane
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Bows, Spears
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Bows, Spears

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

I found out I still have some points to spend so to see how it might work (especially against some character, perferably runelord) I added bladelord with Talisman of Loec. So far I had no need for either of Bladelords but I am willing to give it a try. Might be a nasty surprise for some too.

Deployment

Image
Deployment after scouts and vanguard moves (grey arrows indicate positions from which Reavers begun their advance)

The spells I got:

BSB - Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery
Archmage - Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery, Fury of Khaine, Flames of the Phoenix, Vaul's Unmaking

Yet again Dwarves won the roll off and the battle began.

Dwarves - Turn 1

Image
Dwarves formed their famous castle

This time Dwarves adopted more traditional castle formation around the hills. Longbeards murmured something about proper castle formation in their times which consisted of proper amount of warriors in huge blocks. At least there were no these annoying Thunderers with their too loud and too smelly weapons. On the Eastern flank troll slayers formed a death zone for any elven unit foolish enough to advance too quickly. On the West Rangers positioned themselves in between the rocks confident that even elves cannot pass through such difficult terrain quickly enough.

The Dwarven army clearly wanted Elves to come to them and started to send warm invitations to do so in the form of crossbow bolts and cannon balls. As a result one unit of fast cavalry was dead and some White Lions and Swordmasters were knocked down too. Runelord stroke the rune properly but probably a little bit too carefuly as Ellyrian Reavers didn't suffer any damage and only slowed down their advance.

High Elves - Turn 1

Image
Aggressive advance of Elven army

Seeing that Dwarves are reluctant to move Elves advanced as quickly as possible. White Lions on the West showed Rangers what it really means to be born as a highlander and attacked with ferocity of their native predators. Four rangers fell but the unit held this time.

Archers swift reformed and still shot at Longbeards killing two of them while Reavers managed to shoot down one of the slayers waiting in the woods. Archmage could not breach defences of the runelord just yet.

Dwarves - Turn 2

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First unit of Miners shows up

A little more activite among Dwarven units this time as first unit of Miners showed up behind enemy lines. On the East Dragon Slayer decided to encourage Elves to attack him and left the unit. In the centre Hammerers positioned themselves for some counter-charges. Crossbows and cannons kept firing. Unfortunately the cannon ball that hit great eagle didn't kill it outright and it was up to the Miners to finish the job. Thanks to encouragement from the sound of their holy Anvil they doubled their efforts and caught great bird of prey. However, somehow they didn't kill it either but simply chased it off the battle field. Their companions from the Ranger unit could not hold long enough, however, and broke from combat soon to be run down by Lions who refused to restrain their fury in order to meet new threat.

High Elves - Turn 2

Image
Elves keep attacking!

Elves continued their advance and this time units on the East attacked their enemy. Both heavy cavalry units charged Troll Slayers and inflicted serious casualties but orange-haired maniacs didn't care and survivors kept fighting. Ellyrian Reavers ignored insults shouted by the Dragon Slayer and returned the favor in the form of swift arrows one of which was buried deep in the chest of dwarven warrior. Elven Archers managed to kill two more Longbeards while Archmage cast protective Shield of Saphery on the heavily depleted unit of Swordmasters on the West.

Dwarves - Turn 3

Image
Dwarves counter-attack!

Initial charges of Dwarven units all failed. Miners could not reach White Lions while both units of Hammerers misjudged the charge distance towards the other regiment of Chracians. However, the Runelord used his powers and one unit of Hammerers found enough strength to get into combat eventually. They even knocked down 5 Lions but stubborn elven elites held firm. On the East single Slayer kept fighting among the woods against elven heavy cavalry but his brethren in the centre died to a Dwarf. That opened a path for the heavy cavalry to many important targets.

Shooting again was very efficient as Western cannon killed the eagle while Eastern one loaded some nasty grapeshot that killed two Reavers and panicked survivors. To add insult to injury one more was lost in the wild race in the forest. Dwarven cannons were safe again.

High Elves - Turn 3

Image
Exchange of blows continues

Bold attack of Hammerers against White Lions sees Swordmasters in a bad spot to counter-charge and only Spearelves led by Archmage can attack the flank of Dwarven elites. That attack does not go as planned and not only White Lions die to an Elf but Hammerers hold and reform to face their enemy. What is more another unit is close enough to charge the exposed flank of elven unit. Archers try to discourage them but can't inflict enough casualties to shake resolve of the Dwarves. Archmage summons his powers and this time even Runelord is helpless as flames engulf Hammerers and then runic talisman on the armour of Dwarven BSB cracks laudly and is shattered to pieces.

Dragon Princes decide to attack the most valuable target and charge the flank of Longbeards. 4 Swordmasters make an attempt to join the fight but are too slow to attack at the same time. Dragon Princes charge is strong and many Longbeard lie dead before they even can strike back. They are visibly shaken and relatively young Battle Standard Bearer has a difficult time to convience them to keep fighting. Only when he grimly states the obvious fact that they are too old to be Slayers they decide to lock shields again and refuse to yield. (EDIT: I needed to kill just one more Dwarf to decrease their numbers below 5 models but I failed to do so and they remained steadfast!). The lone Slayer in the woods finally met his death too as did Dragon Slayer who didn't dodge that last arrow which pierced his heart.

Dwarves - Turn 4

Image
Elves suffer a heavy blow

Elven attack was stopped and now Dwarves were in a great position to counter-strike. Quarellels were happy to grasp their great weapons and charged Dragon Princes, killed two and the remaining kinghts had to retreat but fortunately were not caught by Longbeards. Hammeres stormed into Spears who fought valiantly but could not withstand such a stron assault and broke only to be caught in hot pursuit. One of the Dwarven unit was so fast theat they hit the flank of Swordmasters nearby! That can prove to be a costly mistake.

Dwarves keep shooting at advancing Elves. From the unit of Western Swordmasters only Bladelord remains while Eastern cannon unsaddles one Dragon Prince and one Reaver. Also, second unit of Miners finally arrives too (EDIT: I am not sure but I think they charged with the help of the Anvil but rolled too low to get Lions)

High Elves - Turn 4

Image
Elves are bloodied but do not give up (red arrows indicate Dwarven pursuit moves)

White Lions charge Longbeards determined to finish them. They kill Dwarven BSB but remaining Lonbeards hold. Lone Bladelord yet again fails to reach combat in time. His companions kill 4 Hammerers but the rest of the unit stubbornly holds.

Archers aim at the second unit of hammerers but manage to kill only 2 of them. On the East Dragon Princes attempt long charge but they lose one knight in the woods and the impetous of the charge is wasted too.

Dwarves - Turn 5

Image
Another Dwarven counter-attack

Yet again Quarrellers are called to get close and personal and charge White Lions. Somehow Chracians manage to avoid heavy blows, lose only one of their numer, kill one Quarreller and Longbeard champion and stubbornly hold knowing that cavalry is on their way to the rescue. Miners manage to attack Bladelord and kill him (thanks to the Anvil again!) but are not fast enough to overrun and stop elven knights from joining the fight.

Hammerers, obviously annoyed by elven archers, charge Swordmasters along their brethren from the second unit. Unfrotunately for Dwarves, they are not a match for warriors of Hoeth and one unit dies and second is reduced to 4 warriors only.

Then cannon and second unit of Quarrellers kill no less but 7 Spearelves while second cannon kills yet another knight and only Drakemaster remains.

High Elves - Turn 5

Image
Elven cavalry finally reaches the cannon - better late than never!

Elven units have a chance to avenge their fallen companions. Drakemaster and lone Reaver charge cannon and finish it off on the charge. Seond unit of DP charges Longbeards and kill them all. Then, to everybody's surprise, Quarrellers fail their steadfast test and are run down by remaining Lions and Princes and second cannon panics too! Finally, Swordmasters finish remaining Hammerers but are too far away to contribute to the battle any more. Spearelves close towards the Anvil for that last turn charge with remnants of the cavalry units.

Dwarves - Turn 6

Image
Miners attack!

Both units of Miners charge DP who retreat but in the process lose one of their numbers while breaking through Spearelves and even panic them too! Miners redirect towards White Lions and cannot reach them but then Anvil strikes again and one regiment of Miners makes it eventually. Two Chracians fight bravely but there are too many of the Dwarves and they die in the end. Remaining Quarrellers aim at lone DP and get him too.

High Elves - Turn 6

Image
Elves cannot muster enough strength for last charge so just shoot at the enemy

Elven units are either below combat strength or in no position to charge the enemy. Both armies are heavily bloodied and the last act of the battle is performed by Archers who aimed at Miners. Yet again, they kill some but not enough to shake the Dwarves and the battle finishes.

After-battle thoughts

That was really bloody battle with many moments when one or the other army got some advantage. In the end Elves earned almost 200 VP more than Dwarves and claimed a very, very narrow victory.

I know Vanyon is looking for some comments in particular addressing his army and its performance so I divided my comments into two groups. First about Dwarven army from my point of view and second about my thoughts about the battle itself.

Comments about Dwarven Army

1. Army Composition - Adding crossbows is worthy component of the army but it also means it is difficult not to play in a static mode. Of course Quarrellers contributed towards the combat too and I am sure that if not for some unlucky to hit rolls their performance would be much more spectacular. Maybe that was to balance out their fantastic shooting where they hit way too often for my liking! :)

2. Deployment - I think the deployment was good. It was maybe a little dissapointing to see MSU army taking defensive mode and being more static at the beginning but in the end the game was still about movement phase. Positioning of Slayers was interesting and definitely slowed down my cavalry. They died but I got only one cannon and then very late in the game.

3. Rangers - they are a vital part of the army but I have a feeling Vanyon is still not using them to their full potential. It is tempting to position them close to the enemy. I would rather use their special deployment rule to position them where there is some gap in his deployment (if any) or exploit some in enemy's positioning. In this battle he positioned them very good, blocking reavers from making outflanking move. I would keep them in that dangerous terrein closer to his deployment though and didn't expose them for early charge. Especially from the flank!

4. Miners - Positioning of first miners was very good and with an Anvil it is really hard to avoid them. However, I would consider two things while using them. First, do they always have to enter the game behind enemy lines? Maybe it is more beneficial to do so even from your own table edge to reinforce the formation? Like with the second unit which could protect the cannon if was deployed on the road on the East. Sure, chargin Lions was good idea too, it is just to consider other option. ANd second, Anvil can make them march move too, so maybe instead of charging (if behind enemy lines) move them towards the rear of enemy formation and make charges next turn (possibly with some other unit charging from the front too!) next turn?

Comments about the Battle

1. I didn't like my deployment. I was trying to counter Vanyon's crossbows by deploying Archers in one rank so that I could place Swordmasters behind them and be a little away for them to shoot he had first turn. But then he didn't have Strollaz and I was deployed too far away. As soon as I learned about it I did similar thing with Lions and in general it might be something to consider but it seems the better option is to deploy them in proper formation from the start just out of range. I tried to save Eagles only to find out they are good target for Miners. Again I think I would do better to position eagles in the line with other regiments, even use the tower to block LOS from cannons. I also think that deployin whole cavalry on the East would be better. I could have countered Slayers with DP and ER could charge the cannon earlier.

2. I have made huge mistake in positioning Swordmasters at some stage and could not counter-charge Hammerers. I need to remember they can charge twice so even if first attempt is failed they can still reach my lines. The charge with Spears was another huge mistake that costed me my Archmage and entire unit. I would have been better to leave Lions to keep fighting and counter-charge with Swordmasters next turn.

3. I had difficult decision what to charge with DP when I attacked Longbeards and I think it was a good call. However I had to hill no less but 7 of them to break steadfast which is not that easy. It was worth risking though and I just wish 4 Swordmasters with Bladelord could make it too.

4. There is a chance for a magic to work. I have observed that even with so many dice Runelord adds to dispel pool he adds only +2 to the dispel attempt. That means he usually has to use one more dice (at least) to have a good chance of stopping the spell. And as soon as he fails it is even easier to get the spell through. In that case I am willing to cast spells with one more dice than usual just to get higher casting value.

5. In the end I am happy with the results considering my serious mistakes and bad deployment. Could have been much worse!

Thanks for reading! :)
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#10 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Well played Sir, another win against the dirty hole dwellers ^_^
Looks like you were being careful with your BSB, those Sword Masters didn't do much...
The dawi; those miners would have had a much bigger impact entering the board near that road close to the cannon this game, you basically owned that side of the table.
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#11 Post by Elithmar »

Good play from both of you. Unfortunately I was only able to watch the last few turns, and it looks like a lot of the action was before then. Well done on your (narrow) victory.

Shame Vanyon decided to castle at the start. Good idea, but a shame for an MSU army. Flexibility is good though. I think his army was better with strollas though. ;) And less of these silly missile troops! ;)

Well done again, both of you.
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#12 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for comments!

@ Tiralya
I am really happy with the small victory anyway as I made some crucial mistakes. Dwarven MSU is a very interesting army to play against and as with any other troops of normal size I need to combine charges. The exception can be a regiment of Swordmasters provided they are at appropriate strength too. I think the unit with BSB did well as they alone destroyed both hammerers regiments. Even attacked from the flank they still had 4 S5 attacks to help them win combat and then they had enough of attacks to kill both units almost at the same time.

As to the Miners they are tricky to use. In my opinion the best use would be to make them attack in a combined charge with some of his other units. Easier said than done but that is a challenge to make it happen and definitely makes up for a little slower movement.

@ Elithmar
Well, I two additional units with missile weapons which can also be used on close combat are quite flexible. The main problem is in the attitude. You automatically want to castle up. That is also the reason I don't think all archers core is good idea for HE MSU.

I am sure Vanyon is going to further experiment with his army and other options. As much as crossbows are good addition I somehow think Gyrocopter can also deal nicely with small enemy units. We will see what is he going to come up with next time :)
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#13 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

Good win mate. Thanks for posting. :3
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#14 Post by Vanyon »

**Edit** While I was answering a question on Bugmans about Longbeards, I suddenly realized something. When I took out the GW warriors and replaced them with Quarrellers I no longer met the requirements to take the Longbeards. In short, this list is not legal and I need to revisit the war room to redo it.

A quick minor correction to the Dwarf list. I did not have Steamdrills on the miners.

I played much better this game than I did our first encounter. However, I still made some silly mistakes and thought I would share them with you as well as what I thought I did well.

Mistakes:
1. Deployment of the Rangers. I wanted to block the march move of those reavers and be available on that flank so I could support miners when they arrived. I placed them too far forward though. I could have placed them 6 inches farther back and still hindered the reavers, been available to support miners and not been charged on the first turn.
2. Positioning of second Miner unit. I am not sure what I was thinking. This unit did nothing except arrive a turn too late and fail 2 charges. You are correct when you say it would have been much more usefull comming in on the road to support that side. It may have allowed me to get the points for the last dp and reaver unit. I probably saw all of the rocks on the left flank and said ooooo, maybe there is gold in them rocks and thus my miners all showed up on that side.
3. Longbeards, Letting then get charged in the flank and then making a few mistakes in moving my bsb around cost me too many points. I had thought the slayers next to them would hold 1 more turn and I could reposition them or even attack with them, but the slayers failed in their duties.

Things that went well:
1. I managed to get a few good combi charges thanks to my quarreller units, which for the most part(aside from failing a steadfast 9 check) performed very well.
2. Quarrellers, I really think these are far more usefull than the 15 strong GW warrior units they replaced. They allow me to deal with small chaff units and can still lend a hand in CC. While I did not move on turn 1 it was not totally due to the Quarrellers. I knew that SM was expecting both strollas and an aggressive first turn move like I did last time. and that he would deploy for it. I figured by changing up my tactics I might throw him off his plan and force him to think on the fly.
3. Slayers, they do what they do, tie up his fast units for at least 1 turn and die gloriously. I would like to see them perform a bit better in combat, but tend to get them engaged on their own. I will have to work on that. My DS managed to tie up a unit of archers and shooting from the reavers for 2 turns before the elgi got lucky and shot him while he yawning. This means they were not shooting at my combat blocks, which is a good thing in my opinion. Admittedly, against HE his kit is a bit useless, but I am looking at this as an all commers list and do not list tailor. The same goes for my flaming cannon, which has more than once been in great position to hit a complete rank of DP's but had to find alternative targets.
4. Miners, they always perform well ( ok the first unit did, the second will be my slayers next battle). My opponants have to plan for them, it effects their deployment and movement. I almost always get good flank charges with them and cause quuite a stir in the enemies backfield. I really like these guys. Hopefully next time I will deploy the second unit a bit better.

Things I have to say about Swordmasters army and play:
1. While his playstyle is semi-predictable ( cavalry-envelopment) it is very hard for me to deal with every threat as he has so many units. I got lucky this game when he failed a few crucial panic tests allowing me a turn or 2 reprieve from his cavalry flank attack.
2. I still dread combat against swordmasters, they simply chew me up and spit me out(appearantly Dwarf does not taste like chicken). His placement of his SM's behind his long thin line of Lions, giving them a -2 cover bonus against my quarrellers was very smart. I was not able to shoot them up early like I would have liked.
3. His army is solid, each of his units has a definate strength and he uses them well. I think he relies on his DP's charge a bit too much. Against units like slayers, unless he can destroy the entire unit he is going to be tied up for at least a turn. To be honest, there are not a lot of targets in my army that are not stubborn or unbreakable that he could target early on. I understand that those slayer units need to be dealt with, I'm just not sure that the dp's are the way to do it. I think a unit of SM's would cut them down in a turn and allow an overun or at least a reform for better positioning.

Anyways, he never takes my advice in game when I tell him to shoot his own DP's as they look like Dark Elf infiltrators, or turn his units around and face away from the battle so they wont have to witness the carnage. I am seiously hoping that the Tower of Hoeth will be holding its annual glee club sing off next time we meet and all of his Swordmasters will be absent from the battle. It was a great game, and much closer than our last. I still need another rematch to see if I can manage a win or if I will forever be remembered as the Dwarf General who could never beat an elf.
Last edited by Vanyon on Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#15 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Vanyon wrote:probably saw all of the rocks on the left flank and said ooooo, maybe there is gold in them rocks and thus my miners all showed up on that side.
HaHa~ Well played Sir!
The Quarrellers are a keeper, in a list like yours they can provide redundancy, which is important for any army.
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#16 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

~Milliardo~ wrote:Good win mate. Thanks for posting. :3
Thanks! Always glad to entertain! :)
Vanyon wrote:**Edit** While I was answering a question on Bugmans about Longbeards, I suddenly realized something. When I took out the GW warriors and replaced them with Quarrellers I no longer met the requirements to take the Longbeards. In short, this list is not legal and I need to revisit the war room to redo it.
Aren't they just upgrade to Warriors? I had a quick look at the book but must have missed something.
Vanyon wrote:I played much better this game than I did our first encounter. However, I still made some silly mistakes and thought I would share them with you as well as what I thought I did well.
Being more patient and not splitting the army in two definitely helped!
Vanyon wrote:1. Deployment of the Rangers. I wanted to block the march move of those reavers and be available on that flank so I could support miners when they arrived. I placed them too far forward though. I could have placed them 6 inches farther back and still hindered the reavers, been available to support miners and not been charged on the first turn.
I think you can use that opportunity to combine efforts of Rangers and Miners more often. They might be a little too far away from the main line and as such need to rely on each other to win combats. I also think that having the eagles saved my lions in a way, as otherwise you would have charged them in the rear.
Vanyon wrote:2. Positioning of second Miner unit. I am not sure what I was thinking. This unit did nothing except arrive a turn too late and fail 2 charges. You are correct when you say it would have been much more usefull comming in on the road to support that side. It may have allowed me to get the points for the last dp and reaver unit. I probably saw all of the rocks on the left flank and said ooooo, maybe there is gold in them rocks and thus my miners all showed up on that side.
Haha! If I were to make a map for a game some day I will definitely add a huge sign "Unexplored gold mine here!" on some rock in the corner :)
Vanyon wrote:3. Longbeards, Letting then get charged in the flank and then making a few mistakes in moving my bsb around cost me too many points. I had thought the slayers next to them would hold 1 more turn and I could reposition them or even attack with them, but the slayers failed in their duties.
Do you think fleeing from White Lions charge with BSB and 3-4 remaining LB would have been a better idea? Also, if your DS stayed in a unit they would definitely held for longer and DP might have suffered more in the process too.
Vanyon wrote:1. I managed to get a few good combi charges thanks to my quarreller units, which for the most part(aside from failing a steadfast 9 check) performed very well.
Which just shows how important it is to have combined charges on my part too. Just to break steadfast or add enough to CR that the probability of passing it is lower. It was worth trying in both cases where DP charged LB and WL tried to finish them. I got them in the end but at a cost of 2 units.
Vanyon wrote:2. Quarrellers, I really think these are far more usefull than the 15 strong GW warrior units they replaced. They allow me to deal with small chaff units and can still lend a hand in CC. While I did not move on turn 1 it was not totally due to the Quarrellers. I knew that SM was expecting both strollas and an aggressive first turn move like I did last time. and that he would deploy for it. I figured by changing up my tactics I might throw him off his plan and force him to think on the fly.
That indeed what has happened. I am not sure if my quick redesign of the army formation was good but I am sure to take such situation into account later. :)
Vanyon wrote:3. Slayers, they do what they do, tie up his fast units for at least 1 turn and die gloriously. I would like to see them perform a bit better in combat, but tend to get them engaged on their own. I will have to work on that. My DS managed to tie up a unit of archers and shooting from the reavers for 2 turns before the elgi got lucky and shot him while he yawning. This means they were not shooting at my combat blocks, which is a good thing in my opinion. Admittedly, against HE his kit is a bit useless, but I am looking at this as an all commers list and do not list tailor. The same goes for my flaming cannon, which has more than once been in great position to hit a complete rank of DP's but had to find alternative targets.
I think Slayers could work better as a team. Where one unit is exposed but second is positioned for a counter charge. Or use them in a similar way with other units. The volley of death was good idea as I had to position units differently or attack and then lose some time to get back. However, the fact that Slayers are there to die should not mean they cannot choose a better way to do so. :)
Vanyon wrote:4. Miners, they always perform well ( ok the first unit did, the second will be my slayers next battle).
Together with Quarrellers who failed their steadfast test you have two brand new Slayer units again :)
Vanyon wrote:1. While his playstyle is semi-predictable ( cavalry-envelopment) it is very hard for me to deal with every threat as he has so many units. I got lucky this game when he failed a few crucial panic tests allowing me a turn or 2 reprieve from his cavalry flank attack.
Hm, that is a very valuable feedback. I like cavalry a lot and want them to perform properly (an echo from the time when I tried to use cavalry prince list) but I need to incorporate into my plans the fact that my opponent expects me to perform that wide envelopment. Cheers! :)
Vanyon wrote:2. I still dread combat against swordmasters, they simply chew me up and spit me out(appearantly Dwarf does not taste like chicken). His placement of his SM's behind his long thin line of Lions, giving them a -2 cover bonus against my quarrellers was very smart. I was not able to shoot them up early like I would have liked.
I noticed that and I will definitely try to protect SM in the future as they are often the only regiments which can strike back and turn the scales into my favor :) I just need to work better on their positioning so they can counter-charge as soon as possible.
Vanyon wrote:3. His army is solid, each of his units has a definate strength and he uses them well. I think he relies on his DP's charge a bit too much. Against units like slayers, unless he can destroy the entire unit he is going to be tied up for at least a turn. To be honest, there are not a lot of targets in my army that are not stubborn or unbreakable that he could target early on. I understand that those slayer units need to be dealt with, I'm just not sure that the dp's are the way to do it. I think a unit of SM's would cut them down in a turn and allow an overun or at least a reform for better positioning.
In our last game I used DP aggressively because of a few reasons:
- dealing with Slayers quickly would clear the flank and allow me to silence at least one cannon
- early charges can add to your speed, and against Salyers it was the favorite situation as I had good chances of killing them in 2 turns and be ready to charge again, something I would not be able to do with additional turn of movement. It also killed 2 birds with 1 stone (killed enemy unit and get closer to next target)
- ideal situation is when heavy cavalry breaks through the lines and is in position to combine charges with infantry. I had such an opportunity to attack your central Hammerers with my Spears but I was at the same time presented with another target. I took the risk because I could potentially gain a lot. Just made a mistake in charging Spears into another hammeres.
- heavy cavalry is one of the units that can at least hold your Anvil for some time and that was also the reason for me being so aggressive. If it was not for the LB exposed flank I would have charged Quarrellers and overrung into the Anvil to keep it busy.
Vanyon wrote:Anyways, he never takes my advice in game when I tell him to shoot his own DP's as they look like Dark Elf infiltrators, or turn his units around and face away from the battle so they wont have to witness the carnage. I am seiously hoping that the Tower of Hoeth will be holding its annual glee club sing off next time we meet and all of his Swordmasters will be absent from the battle. It was a great game, and much closer than our last. I still need another rematch to see if I can manage a win or if I will forever be remembered as the Dwarf General who could never beat an elf.
Haha,I indeed need to change my "miniatures" :) If I have time I might even try to make my own for UB! I am afraid, however, that I cannot leave Swordmasters at "home". It would ruin my reputation :P

I am sure I got an entry or two in your Book of Grudges but I also think Elithmar might have more colorful descriptions about his attrocities he dared to perform against your army. There is not as outrageous as killing his own units in the rocks before you could strike them first :P

Cheers!
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Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#17 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

I may have asked you this before... but seeing as you're so fond of Swordmasters, why not leave the lions at home? I certainly like them a lot, but is it an issue of what models you currently own? :3
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#18 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Milliardo,

Well, I have enough models to field 4 x 10 units (although one of them would be these old,old metal figures from 4th edition). The thing is WL add more flexibility and for me their stubbornness is the main asset I take them. In ideal situation they pin the enemy down and Swordmasters counter-charge. Also, in some situations, like flanking Chaos Knights, White Lions might do better (although as always it depends on how good your opponent is at roll his armor saves :)).

I also got myself 2 x 10 new WL and I will definitely like to paint them for my army :)

Cheers!
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Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#19 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I like your list SM, there are basically doubles of everything, makes it easy to read ^_^
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#20 Post by Vanyon »

@ Sowrdmaster
The Dwarf army book states that you may not have more units of longbeards than you have units of warriors. Rangers of any type do not count towards this ratio (per the Dwarf FAQ) and if you have a Dwarf Lord, you may have an additional unit of longbeards. So in order to have my unit of longbeards I must have at least 1 unit of warriors. I have fixed this by making my rangers the longbeards and my longbeards warriors. My list will now be legal and my rangers will now be ws5 s6 with GW's :shock: :shock: I might also try and give them throwing axes just to try them out. Hmmmm :-k
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Re: MSU HE vs. MSU Dwarves 2500 - rematch updated 11.03

#21 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

@ Tiralya
That was not planned, really :) I would love to have more units of either WL, SM or DP. Funny but the initial army list SmithF suggested long time ago had 3 x WL and 3 x SM but no ER at all.

@ Vanyon
Yes, I found the missing sentence (was not looking in the army list section before). Hm, what was the idea for LB as a bodyguards for BSB in the first place? Was it mainly due to their immune to panic rule of higher WS and S? LB Rangers might be even harder to defeat so it is good idea to try it out. You can, of course, always add more Warriors to the BSB unit. As always there are no obvious choices :)
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Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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