CanCon 2012 - Summary updated 17.02

This forum is for the posting of reports of your famous victories and crushing defeats. It is for both single battle reports and for ongoing army diaries/blogs.

Moderators: The Heralds, The Loremasters

Message
Author
User avatar
DarthSabre
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:29 am

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 07 updated 07.01

#91 Post by DarthSabre »

Hi Swordmaster,

Another exellant report and once again your use of your army was impressive.

I tried a Seredain inspired calvery list again Orc's and goblins on the weekend in preparation for Cancon. Quite daunting to look across a 6 foot table and see your opponent lined up from one edge to the other with models, including 4 * 50 unit hordes. :o

Didn't use it as effectively as Seredain but achieved a minor victory.

Good luck in Cancon
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 07 updated 07.01

#92 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for comments, guys!
dabber wrote:I agree that the Bret list could be a lot better. I don't think he has too many points in characters, as the characters give Brets the grinding ability that I find lets them win in 8th.
You are probably right. I am not saying Brets do not need their heroes. However, the most successful builds I have seen so far had more hero type characters, with not so many magic items working solo, much like Saurus Scar-Veterans. I also think that Multiple Lance Units is good option (no bigger than 9 models in total) with some peasants with bows. I would try their light cavalry too as they can flee while small knight units cannot do that without losing their precious blessing. In any case it is still powerful army in right hands although it does not benefit from steadfast as other armies and it can be a probelm for knights to break units they used to destroy with easy.
dabber wrote:I think the turn 2 charge was correct. You had those two lances isolated and could hit them with a lot. You were not going to hurt them at range, and delaying gave him a chance to free up something else. I'm not sure your odds of beating those lances on turn 2 were that great, but I don't think the odds were going to get better any time later. If those White Lions had made it, I think you take them out.
My thinking was that in next turn I could still close the distance and set a similar trap with better envelopment as his other units could not help him anyway. He could no run away now and I could make it even more probable both WL and maybe even SM could reach them. I did pin him down and was winning majority of combats but never by great margin and blocked the way for other regiments. Once again, I am not really complaining, just trying to see if I could do things better :)
dabber wrote:But that is the huge weakness of MSU - random charge distances prevent multi-charging.
Brewmaster addressed that already, so I will just echo his comment. It is actually probably even better to have more units. In this battle I declared more charges than I wanted just in case some units are not goint to reach him. With an exception of WL who didn't roll well enough all units were 11-12 inches away so it was not that difficult. The thing with MSU is that you have that luxury of declaring multiple charges when you don't need them all to make sure you get enough of troops in combat anyway.
Curu Olannon wrote:What kind of lists do you believe are the worst you can face?
I presume you mean in general. Well, I have yet to test myself against some heavy shooters as it was always a difficult enemy for Elves. However, last battle by Cython, despite his loss, gave me some hope that it is still possible to have some advantages over them. I will have more units and can try to deploy better.

I want to test this army against numerous foe too, such as O&G, as they have a lot of tools to destroy my fragile units and will not be easily out-deployed.

Fast armies, or other MSU will be a problem as they can neglect my advantages but I am looking forward to such games as they will be very demanding. A lot of careful positioning will be required, especially when you know that they can do the same things you do :)

There are still a lot of armies I had no chance to play against in general, not even with this particular army list, that I might be in trouble how to beat them. Hopefully with time I will be able to add even more varied opponents to the list of enemies I fought against.

What do you think I should watch out and maybe try to prepare against (at least in theory) in particular?
Brewmaster_D wrote:Just because the knights can move really far doesn't mean they have to. Really all he needed to swing some of those grinds in his direction was a unit to divert some of the flank charges you set up, allowing him to charge forward without fear of countercharge.
I agree. It would make things more difficult for sure.
Brewmaster_D wrote:I agree with you 100% here. Deployment is such a critical phase, and I think some players get stuck in a certain formation in their heads. In this case, it cost him a valuable piece of artillery right off the bat. Sometimes you can afford to set the Trebuchet off on its own as a gambit, but versus an MSU style list this will definitely be a disaster.
That is why I think it would be beneficial to him to play refused flank. Send knights along it and roll whatever is in front of them with slower/smaller units as an axis. On the other hand I see more and more that I get such a great advantage in deployment phase that it sometimes feels like I already have the initiative, no matter who actually starts the game.
Brewmaster_D wrote:Once again, agreed. My guess is that he missed seeing the possibility of the Dragon Princes charging out and clearing a path for the swordmasters to charge the Lord.
It is a great move if you can do it, sometimes even declaring charges that have a high risk to fail just to clear the path for other regiments to attack.
Brewmaster_D wrote:The key vs. MSU, as far as I can tell (since nobody has actually tried this yet, everyone seems to get really nervous :P) is to just blast on in, and do your best to do as much damage to the small units before you get enveloped. If you can punch through one or two of those small units individually before the swarm gets you, you stand a much better chance in the long run.
Swarming is indeed a very good description for this tactics. You might be right that it is a good way to fight MSU so I will have to think about such an outcome as well to have another counter-tactics :)
Brewmaster_D wrote:Nah, I think you were fine to take that charge. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, they say. Pardon the knight pun. He put his most valuable units out in the open, with little to no support versus some of your nastiest elites. Having said that, I think you could have been a bit more aggressive with the white lions behind the eagle. It doesn't look like it changes the results that you were after, you could still get a countercharge if he charged through the eagle into them. However, it pretty much guarantees that those lions see combat the next turn either way, giving you a killer 20 White Lion attacks on him as opposed to Lions and Spears.
The reason for that was to prevent both lances to hit this particular unit (one would destroy the eagle, overrun and hit WL while the first was not fighting yet, so it means another combat the same round). Hence WL positioned a little further so that the big unit with BSB could only charge spears. As they were stubborn and more numerous they would hold.
Brewmaster_D wrote:So I think it's more of an issue of setting up the charges with priority being placed on your hard hitting elites. I'm sure you didn't expect the backpedal though!
No I didn't :) I thought that once he realised he moved them too far away he would go for a kill just to try to break through or at least inflict casualties when he could do the most damage.
Brewmaster_D wrote:1. Have you had the opportunity to play the same opponent twice with this list yet? If so, do you think their playstyle will change significantly now that they won't be suprised by the style of list?
Actually, with an exception of the last battle, I am playing against the same person (Wardancer from warhammer.org.uk). He owns a lot of armies and attends many local tournaments so he is at least well versed in what can be seen on those. He also wanted to build lists which he would field at a tournament (not exactly tailored against HE). He is definitely used to MSU now and he even has defeated SmithF and his Empire with the same Skaven army that I faced. They were playing 2500 though and that gave him an opportunity to field ... an assassin. :)

He does not want to change his lists to be able to deal with MSU in particular but he already told me playing against such an army gave him some ideas on how to improve his tactics and change army lists a little. I am going to face his Skaven again next battle and hopefully we will play one more time before the tournament. I have a feeling my wish to test MSU against crazy greenskins might be granted as well :)
Brewmaster_D wrote:2. Given that the spears lose attacks and rank bonus with the first casualty, and the prevalence of S5 attacks that can neutralize their armour, have you considered the possibility of taking all archer core? This could very much amplify the effect of Curse of Arrow attraction as well.
Indeed having an Archer horde could be beneficial. However, knowing myslef I think it will not suit me well. I feel good with aggressive approach, required with this combat orientated army. I would not mind more small archer units but then I don't really want to sacrifice my spears. It is true they lose their rank bonus and attacks right from the start. but they work good for me as they are as they are as fast as any other unit, are still relatively cheap so that I can sue them either as character bunkers, banners protectors but also can send them in if I need to and if things go wrong and I lose them it is still around 200 points.

The "problem" with all archer core is you want relatively clear line of sight and don't want to move them. That might limit your pathways in the movement phase.

At the moment I like my spears and I would like to keep them but I am not neglecting all-archers approach. I trust that my veteran Spearelves will make me pround again :)
DarthSabre wrote:I tried a Seredain inspired calvery list again Orc's and goblins on the weekend in preparation for Cancon. Quite daunting to look across a 6 foot table and see your opponent lined up from one edge to the other with models, including 4 * 50 unit hordes. :o

Didn't use it as effectively as Seredain but achieved a minor victory.

Good luck in Cancon
Cheers! You too! I am looking forward to meeting you there so if you spot my army first just come along and say hello!

Good job on the battle against greeinskins! Their armies are indeed huge. Would be great to find out in a little more detail how did go exactly :)

Thanks a lot for comments once again! Keep the coming!
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
Jimmy
Centurion
Posts: 3307
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:55 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 07 updated 07.01

#93 Post by Jimmy »

Firstly nice battle and thanks for posting it.

1. Brets can still create I feel a competitive army but the builds tend to all look the same. 2 Trebs are mandatory. There is one build with a few large lances, characters in each being buffed by the lore of beasts and units to flavour. There is the HKB lord on peg which is another tough nut to crack if played correctly. I don't think Men at Arms are worthwhile currently IMO, more knights.

2. You're right in that regard, 2 knight lances vs 1 enemy unit yields good results.

3. Agreed, he should have played much more conservatively with his flyer and created a headache in the later turns.

4. Brets are all about the combined charge, I think it's best to position all the units to engage in combined charges on turn 3.

5. If he's stuck for ideas send him to the Round Table which is a forum dedicated to Brets.

:)

You played very well though and once again thanks for sharing.
Nec Sorte Nec Fato - Neither By Chance Nor Fate

X-wing Blog
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 07 updated 07.01

#94 Post by Curu Olannon »

I would think shooty msu lists could cause you problem, as well as Ogres due to their tough nature. Also, heavy-shooting DE could be interesting ;)
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
jwg20
Posts: 633
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:50 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 07 updated 07.01

#95 Post by jwg20 »

Firstly, good job on the win! I like your new army and you play it well. I have been reading all your BRs, but haven't had time to respond until now.

Anyway, about his army:

Brets can be pretty powerful in 8th, having the only cav units that can break steadfast pretty easily without wasting a ton of points and losing attacks. A common strategy is actually even more characters than he has. A common build puts a few units of knights each with 3 characters (or 2 characters decked for defense and champion). This build makes it so when they are fighting to the front, the max wounds the enemy can deal is 5-6 wounds (having to divide between characters and unit champ, whereas the bret unit can pump a ton of attacks into the base unit. The most successful bret army I have seen beat some heavy no-comp daemons, and lost once to skaven, and won the overall tournament. What he ran was 2x treb, a few knight deatstars, and skirmishers to win the movement battle (no infantry units). With march and shoot and free reforms, they can advance at the same pace as walking knights while shooting enemy redirectors and help control/redirect enemy flanking units.

With an army as fast as brets, controlling the movement battle is key, and he really didn't have any units capable of doing that. A few more units of skirmishers (10 coming in at 70 pts, so not bad) could help him control your flanking units and help him ensure he gets the charges he wants. Granted, thats always hard against MSU, but all he needs to ensure is that he gets the charge on one of your units, and he will probably run through out of countercharge arc, leaving you to scramble to reform.

About the game itself, you really used your deployment advantage here, being able to set up a bunch of units against his knights, while still deploying your cavalry on the right to quickly deal with his shooters before they could have an impact. I like how you scared him so much he backed up with his knights! Always a testament to a well set trap, and this was one from which he couldn't escape. I don't think the turn 2 charges were overaggressive, in fact I think they helped you a lot. It gave the DPs the flank in your turn 3, and delayed his pegasus lord before he could be an annoyance. It really helped your combo-charges in turn three come to fruition.

I also agree about the aggressive archer use. With WS 4 ASF, they are actually solid against some units in combat. Granted, don't go putting them up against warriors of chaos or daemons, but against brets, or even empire state troops and skaven, they can really cause some damage, particularly on a flank charge. That is one of my favorite moves, to have my enemy stupidly ignore my archers, only to be flank charged by them!

Anyway great battle and good luck in your tournament.
Link to my YouTube Channel:
Image
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 07 updated 07.01

#96 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for your comments guys! :)
Jimmy wrote:Firstly nice battle and thanks for posting it.
Thanks! It is always great fun to post reports for me and I am glad people like them.
Jimmy wrote:1. Brets can still create I feel a competitive army but the builds tend to all look the same. 2 Trebs are mandatory. There is one build with a few large lances, characters in each being buffed by the lore of beasts and units to flavour. There is the HKB lord on peg which is another tough nut to crack if played correctly. I don't think Men at Arms are worthwhile currently IMO, more knights.
Knights are very good and I think people might consider them less effective or even weak simply because they look so similar and there is not much variety in the list. However, I also think one can have a good list with some peasants in it. They just require some re-thinking of the overall tactics and how to deal with things that make other armies powerful in 8th edition.
Jimmy wrote:5. If he's stuck for ideas send him to the Round Table which is a forum dedicated to Brets.

:)

You played very well though and once again thanks for sharing.
I think he knows about the website so it is up to him to ask other Bret players for advice. :)

Thanks again!
Curu Olannon wrote:I would think shooty msu lists could cause you problem, as well as Ogres due to their tough nature. Also, heavy-shooting DE could be interesting ;)
I am definitely looking forward all such games as I agree they will be a challenge. I think we have a good subject to discuss in my army list topic :)
jwg20 wrote:Firstly, good job on the win! I like your new army and you play it well. I have been reading all your BRs, but haven't had time to respond until now.
Thanks! And do not worry about not posting. As long as you (and others) enjoy them I am happy with it!
jwg20 wrote:Brets can be pretty powerful in 8th, having the only cav units that can break steadfast pretty easily without wasting a ton of points and losing attacks. A common strategy is actually even more characters than he has. A common build puts a few units of knights each with 3 characters (or 2 characters decked for defense and champion). This build makes it so when they are fighting to the front, the max wounds the enemy can deal is 5-6 wounds (having to divide between characters and unit champ, whereas the bret unit can pump a ton of attacks into the base unit.
I will check the rulebook but who has priority in the first rank? Or is it special rule of Bretonnian army? I thought command group is something you need to have in the first rank but obviously that would not work with Lances. I am a little confused now so better check them books now :)
jwg20 wrote:The most successful bret army I have seen beat some heavy no-comp daemons, and lost once to skaven, and won the overall tournament. What he ran was 2x treb, a few knight deatstars, and skirmishers to win the movement battle (no infantry units). With march and shoot and free reforms, they can advance at the same pace as walking knights while shooting enemy redirectors and help control/redirect enemy flanking units.
I think Bretonnian deathstar is slightly different than other units of such type. What exactly did you have in mind?
jwg20 wrote:With an army as fast as brets, controlling the movement battle is key, and he really didn't have any units capable of doing that. A few more units of skirmishers (10 coming in at 70 pts, so not bad) could help him control your flanking units and help him ensure he gets the charges he wants. Granted, thats always hard against MSU, but all he needs to ensure is that he gets the charge on one of your units, and he will probably run through out of countercharge arc, leaving you to scramble to reform.
True. I could defeat some of his units one-on-one but then it is not always the way to win the battle. I also think Bretonnians could actually make life of MSU army very difficult. They are fast enough to punch through many units in one go and do not leave too much time and space for traps I managed to set
jwg20 wrote:About the game itself, you really used your deployment advantage here, being able to set up a bunch of units against his knights, while still deploying your cavalry on the right to quickly deal with his shooters before they could have an impact.
I have probably said it already but I really like that opportunity the army gives you. There is almost always a way to deploy key units where you need them the most. So there is no need for some regiments to be deployed until all enemy army is there for you to see. It helps enormously and also gives you an opportunity to re-adjust your plans if the opponent does something unexpected.
jwg20 wrote:I like how you scared him so much he backed up with his knights! Always a testament to a well set trap, and this was one from which he couldn't escape. I don't think the turn 2 charges were overaggressive, in fact I think they helped you a lot. It gave the DPs the flank in your turn 3, and delayed his pegasus lord before he could be an annoyance. It really helped your combo-charges in turn three come to fruition.
I had no doubt about DP and after thinking about it Swordmasters did good job too. I was just wondering if I could make a better trap in Turn 2 to charge his Lances in Turn 3. My main concern was that after that charge I could not support fighting units with anything and two elite infantry units didn't really know what to do. Swordmasters did finish Errants but such reserv can be performed by a single unit. Again, not complaining at all just wondering how to do things better if possible :)
jwg20 wrote:I also agree about the aggressive archer use. With WS 4 ASF, they are actually solid against some units in combat. Granted, don't go putting them up against warriors of chaos or daemons, but against brets, or even empire state troops and skaven, they can really cause some damage, particularly on a flank charge. That is one of my favorite moves, to have my enemy stupidly ignore my archers, only to be flank charged by them!
Indeed! I managed to do that long before with my other army lists and it was always an interesting twist. I really like the fact every single unit can fight in this army and if needed I can always send both archer units to fight some slaves or empire troops :)
jwg20 wrote:Anyway great battle and good luck in your tournament.
Thanks! I don't quite know what to expect from the uncomped, 8 battles tournament but I am optimistic and I think I will have a lot of fun testing my army against so many opponents. :)
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 07 updated 07.01

#97 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

This game was postponed a few times but fortunately we managed to play it eventually. So a rematch against Skaven and Watchtower scenario too! So much can depend on a single dice roll in this game. :)

Army Lists and Pre-battle coniderations

The army lists didn't change from our previous battle, although my opponent was considering some improvements. In the end, as the game was postponed a few times and an opportunity presented itself in the last moment he decided to use his previous army list rather than make changes and add too much to the confusion :) So the lists just for reference.

Despite that the scenario requirements meant I had to approach this game differently. First, I needed some plan for both options, i.e. when I can occupy watchtower from the start and when it was my opponent to garrison it first. I noticed that his units are too big to do so and only one unit of slaves was small enough as watchtower guardians. This would give me a good opportunity to replace them with some unit of my own on turn 1 and if that were the case I would assign Swordmasters with Bladelord to do so.

If I won the roll off I would place one unit of Spears there and maybe change the garrison with Swordmasters later on. Regardless of the fact who is going to start the game I still wanted to go for a weighted flank and use watchtower as an anchor. I think it would give me an advantage and with more deployment drops I also wanted to create some hunting parties to take down Abomination and Doom Wheel as soon as possible.

Skaven Army List

Grey Seer, Screaming Bell, Dispell Scroll - Lore of Ruin
Cheiftain, Poison Attacks, Halberd
Cheiftain, BSB, Storm Banner
Engineer, Warp Energy Condenser, Level 1 - Lore of Ruin
Engineer, Doomrocket
Engineer, Brass Orb

40 Clanrats, Full Command
40 Slaves, Musician
40 Slaves, Musician
20 Slaves
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
30 Stormvermin, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame

6 Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings
6 Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings
3 Jezzails with champion

Warplightning Cannon
Warplightning Cannon
Doomwheel
Hellpit Abomination

High Elves

Archmage, Level 4, Annulian Crystal, Dragon Bane Gem - High Magic
BSB, Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Radiant Gem of Hoeth - High Magic

20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard,
20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician

10 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
10 White Lions, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Blademaster with Amulet of Light, Musician
8 Swordmasters, Musician
8 Swordmasters, Musician
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Bows, Spears

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

Deployment

Image
Armiess arrayed for battle after vanguard move and scouts placement

Grey Seer took Lore of Ruin this time and got following spells: Skitterleap, Death Frenzy, Scorch and Dreaded 13th while Warlock got his usual Lightning. Two engineers joined their Slaves units, Chieftain and Warlock were with Stormvermin while Grey Seer and BSB led big clanrat unit.

Elven BSB had his usual Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery combination while Archmage got: Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery, Fury of Khaine, Flames of the Phoenix, Vaul's Unmaking

Very good spells selection on both sides. As it is clear from the deployment picture Skaven won roll off to see who controls Watchtower but High Elves got first turn and went for aggressive opening!

High Elves Turn 1

Image
High Elves seize the initiative with an attack on Watchtower

High Elven units moved forward, each perfectly remembering detailed plans prepared by their commanders. On the West, hunting party of White Lions with support of Swordmasters moved towards Abomination but only the regiment with Banner of Eternal Flame moved close enough to be charged by the monster. Units in the centre shifted their position to the West while two heavy cavalry squadrons moved to positions where they could intercept Doom Wheel.

The Bladelord led his companions in the assault team and attacked slaved hiding in the Watchtower. The bloody combat errupted and despite warnings, treats and curses shouted by Grey Seer a few survivors fled the tower and Elves reclaimed it swiftly (edit: that unit probably should have exploded as slaves usually do :)) That was not the end of the troubles for Grey Seer, however. Two Gutter Runners were killed by very accurate shots from elven light cavalry and they too fled! Grey Seer was fuming on the top of his Screaming Bell platform and that was probably the reason why he was distracted and could not dispel Flames of the Phoenix cast at Stormvermin. Elite ratmen lost 1/3 of their numbers but firmly held. Elven Archmage used the opportunity and cast Shield of Saphery on western Lions and then used his power of Drain Magic to dissipate magical energy too.

Giant rats on the East were a target of both archer units but they could not kill all the rats (and didn't inflict panic tests nearby) who also were very brave and despite the loss of pack master stayed firm.

Skaven Turn 1

Image
Skaven move forward to secure area around the tower

Angry Grey Seer shouted orders and his army obeyed quickly. Fleeing units rallied. Gutter runners on the West blocked White Lions while Abomination moved forward with Slaves in support. The rest of the army moved slowly to surrender the watchtower and block other elven units to help the garrison. On the East Doom Wheel moved towards elven cavalry and the engineer tried to make his machine to work properly and he managed to kill 2 Dragon Princes. Jezzails on the hill also aimed at the knights but their ammunition was flawed and one of the guns exploded in the paws of skaven marksmen killing him and his pavise bearer on the spot. The similar fate waited one of the crew of Warp Lightning Cannon which vanished in the spectacular display of green light. Second crew worked frantically to re-adjust the settings and saved themselves from the similar end but their shot, although aimed perfectly at the Eagle, was just a harmless green beam in the end.

Grey Seer could not believe that traitors from clan Skryre dared to cheat the greatest hero of the Skavendom! He will have their skins later. Now he urged his Rat Ogre to swing the bell and he focused on summoning some energies to cast spells. The end result was many scorched elves from Sears regiment. Content he has shown his useless engineers how things should be done Grey Seer dispelled Flames of the Phoenix in a rare display of mercy (and a need for proper fighting unit in big enough numers!).

High Elves Turn 2

Image
In the middle of the Storm deadly dance begins

Elven units charge on both flanks. On the East smaller unit of Dragon Princes attacks Doom Wheel while their companions move to the flank to lend some support soon. The wretched machine is too tough to wound, however, and engineer manages to control it. Can the Knights hold enough for their brothers to come to the rescue?

On the West white lions charge gutter runners and kill three. Despite the superb dogding abilities of skaven assassin adepts the survivors are not that brave and flee. Victorious Lions reform to face their true prey while other units set up a trap. It means, unfortunately, that somebody has to make a nobel sacrifice to lure the monster into it and Reavers perform that duty.

Despite the raging Storm Archers manage to kill both remaining Jezzails and single surviving giant rat flees to the safety of some tunnels, never to be seen again. With weak winds of magic Archmage drains the energy even more so that his enemy cannot cast deadly spells either.

Skaven Turn 2

Image
Skaven press forward!

It is time for some Skaven counter-attacks. Abominations destroys light cavalry to an elf and overruns into Swordmasters. Elven elite stays firm and it seems they managed to trap the monster yet again. It remains to be seen, however, if the trap is strong enough to kill it quickly. On the opposite flank engineers presses all the bottons and twists all the gears but to no avail. Only one knight fell and his two companions kept fighting. Skaven engineer became more and more nervous as he saw another cavalry unit leveliing their lances and about to charge his flank.

Other units moved forward again, Stormvermin and Slaves securing the western flank of the watchtower while clanrats and other slaves blocked the eastern side. Grey Seer could not summon enough energy to breach elven magical defences and his bell encouraged his army. Raging Storm blocked the sight to any target and cannon crew didn't try to shoot this time. However, lone figure emerged from the ranks of slaves and fired some rocket-like device. In the resulting explosion 2 Swordmasters and a few Spearelves fell. The survivors decided to perform tactical retreat since they were already deplteded below proper combat strength.

High Elves Turn 3

Image
High Elves go for exchange of blows

High Elves press even harder on both flanks. On the West White Lions attack the flank of the Abomination already pinned down by Swordmasters, who lost only one of their numbers due to impact hits. White Lions stroke with ferocity of the most savage beasts of Annuli Mountains and the monster was dead before it managed to inflict any more damage. The hunting party of 3 elite regiments re-arranged their formation and were ready to march towards the tower to support the garrison.

At the same time deplted Swordmaster regiment engaged skaven slaves and when it was clear that White Lions are still a little too far away to lend immediate support they swung their blades alone. Despite much bigger numbers skaven slaves fled, being just out of range of Grey Seer and his inspiring presence! Only 3 of warriors of Hoeth remained alive but it looked like western flank is clear and secure.

On the East Dragon Princes charged the Doom Wheel and although in the end only 2 wounds were inflicted it was enough to break the engineer who fled right into Slaves. Pursuing Knights destroyed it and smaller regiment hit the flank exactly at the same time when both archers units engaged from the front. Many slaves died but they held despite that.

Elven Archmage decided to avenge his fallen comrades and sent fury of khain against lonely engineer who died instantly, panicking nearby giant rats. Elves clearly managed to envelope the enemy but Skaven are still strong enough to inflict a lot of damage.

Skaven Turn 3

Image
Skaven break through the encirclement

Grey Seer ordered an attack and clanrats pushed his bell against elven Archers. This time elves lost entire unit and the second archers and dragon princes both broke from combat. Slaves pursued and cought elven bowmen while clanrats reformed to face nother cavalry unit.

Before Grey Seer summoned his powers the bell rang again and ... the watchtower collapsed in an instant! Swordmasters were uick enough to jump out of the windows but two of them were burried in ruins. Had Grey Seer known the future he would probably order his clanrats to move towards the ruins instead and now he was facing the wrong direction!

Gutter runners aimed at brave Swordmasters and killed them to an elf with their poisonous sling shots. That panicked Spearelves who decided to take the Archmage to safety too, just in case. It seemed that eastern front was where Skaven were winning.

High Elves Turn 4

Image
High Elves are gaining upper hand

Suddenly released from their garrison duty Swordmasters charged the exposed flank of Stormvermin while Spearelves press from the font. 13 elite ratmen lie dead in no time but the remaining few with a chieftain and engineer show insane courage and hold against all odds!

As the storm finally stopped all units move quickly and especially eagles take flight to treat the cannon and be closer to the main fights. Dragon Princes elect to charge giant rats, break through easily and overrun towards the cannon too. Their companions on far East rally as do the spearelves with Archmage. There is one more gamble left for Grey Seer to get back to the game!

Skaven Turn 4

Image
The final act

Grey Seer urges his unit and nearby slaves to close towards the ruins of the watchtower. Gutter runners manage to kill the eagle before it attacks the cannon but its fate is sealed with the cavalry so close.

Brave Stormvermin, their Chieftain and last Warlock all die to a rat and victorious Swordmasters and Spearelves reform to face Grey Seer himself. With evil laughter, the chosen of the hornet rat summons great powers and winds of magic are really strong. But by the ironic twist of fate the whole energy escapes at the first attempt of casting low level, Skitterleap spell and the whole gamble went for nothing. (Edit: While casting Skitterleap grey seer rolled double 1's and that effectively eneded magic phase)
Seeing that nothing can be done and that he is in a grave danger Grey Seer ordered his last regiments to withdrew while they could and thus High Elves were victorious once again.

After-battle thoughts

Although I am very happy to win against Skaven once again and also in the Watchtower scenario I must admit my opponent was very unlucky this time. He rolled 4 misfires, one resulting in explosion of the cannon, twice to turn his cannon shots into harmless green flash lights and once for doom wheel when it was in combat. His Jezzails performed in a similar fashion and in general his magic was not good enough to either get proper casting values (drain magic did help a lot especially against warlock).

His idea was to surround the tower and cast dreaded 13th on the garrison, turn it into rats and thus control the tower. Unfortunately the tower collapsed and gave me the opportunity to charge his Stormvermin. If he only knew it is going to happen and that they are gong to hold he would reform his bell unit differently and charged my units from the rear. Of course I still had Dragon Princes and would attack him to pin him down but then maybe I would not be able to do so.

I wonder if he would not be better with refused flank. I would deploy the wheel and abomination close to each other on the East and then move forward. Or even position Abomination behind Stormvermin so it is not charging unsupported and too early. It was a little unlucky to lose his slaves as tower garrison (they were testing on 7 and failed with re-roll) and since he wanted to cast dreaded 13th on the regiment I put there he probably didn't want to assault it with Stormvermin. Besides they would die as easily as slaves in doing so.

As always it is difficult to say what could be done better when one wins the game :) I am really pleased with my units on flanks as they performed their tasks perfectly. Magic was working in a subtle way, usually adding that drain magic into equation preventing engineer from casting the lightning and making casting 13th very risky. However, I was pre-occupied with casting damage spells so much that I forgot about Unmaking! I could force him to dispel fury and flames and then cast unmaking. That might have destroyed the rocket before it was used (although I didn't suffer as much as I could because of that).

I guess my charge with Archers was not necessary. I could simply move them apart and either hold against slaves charge and then counter attack with second unit or even flee from them. Instead I allowed his units to break through. The good thing was that this led them further away from the tower so maybe it was not that bad in the end.

There was also one situation I would like to ask your opinion on. When doom wheel fled it rolled 10" while both DP units got 9" each. So they could not catch it. But it fled into slaves and apparently it has to stop 1" away from the unit, meaning it was fleeing 9" in total - hence we ruled that out as if DP cought it in pursuit anyway. Is that a correct way? I am browsing the rule book at the moment but I would like to know what do you think about it.

Ok, that's all from me today, thanks for reading and I hope you enjoyed it. As always we are looking forward any comments!

Cheers!
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
Brewmaster_D
Posts: 579
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Location: Kitchener, Ontario

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 08 updated 22.01

#98 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Swordmaster!

Another great battle report. My condolences on having to play that awful, awful scenario.

It's always interesting watching your opponents try to deal with the swarm that is your army, and this game was no different. I'm going to take a stab at coining a phrase for a tactic that I see you use quite a bit: The Big Warm Hug of Death. Essentially your troops peel through one flank, then the swarm surrounds his troops one at a time, hugging them to death with combo charges. Pretty spectacular to see!

Regarding your game, a few thoughts, as always:

- I wonder when your skaven opponent is going to catch on and stop leaving that Hellpit on a flank for you to smash with fiery death? :P
- I agree with the refused flank. Your opponent needs to take away your movement advantage by making it difficult to surround him. With a central deployment and relatively weak flanks, it's just too easy to threaten two or more fronts, causing confusion in his battle plan
- Not sure on the Doomwheel situation. I'm pretty sure if it's fleeing, it flees just like a normal unit. I don't have my skaven book handy to double check that though.
- I think one of the best uses for Gutter runners in this game would to be present a threat on one of the flanks in the form of a panic test a turn. This would keep you honest about your movement, as you wouldn't want to stray too far from your leadership base.


Is your deployment style going to change at all when you encounter an enemy that is more capable of forcing panic checks? Or will you risk it to retain the movement advantage?

Thanks again for the report!

D
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35454]Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35478]The Art of Deployment[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35380]Writing Army Lists[/url]
Leitran
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:02 pm

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 08 updated 22.01

#99 Post by Leitran »

Nicely played! Sure, your opponent did have some unlucky moments, but I feel like you were tactically doing better than he was anyway, which really shows in the deployment. (Flaming WL, and some more elites, against the HPA on one flank, DP opposed by nothing but the Doomwheel to get around the other, and his Stormvermin unable to reach anything for the first few turns because of the tower - and you don't really have any bad matchups at all)

The scenario definitely didn't help him out, though. That garrison wasn't going anywhere. Not sure what I would've done to get control of the tower, apart from relying on magic (which seems like a bad idea, though I suppose it's easy to say that afterwards).

Sadly I'm unaware of the Special Rules for a Doomwheel. I'd say if a fleeing unit has to stop (for whatever reason) within your Pursuit Range, it would get destroyed. However, I think I would count it as pursuit into a fleeing unit (P.58) since the rulebook says quite clearly that you need to roll equal to or higher than your opponent in order to get the "Caught!" result (P.56, "Caught", and again on P.57, "Move Fleeing Units"). Definitely a strange situation though, and not one I have a definitive answer to.

On a side-note, I think fluff-wise it's ridiculous a Doomwheel would stop fleeing because there are some Slaves in the way. :roll:

I definitely like your Battle Reports, keep them coming! It's great to see a High Elf army having so much more combat units than pretty much anything you go up against. And even more so when it's the Skaven getting swarmed! :lol:
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 08 updated 22.01

#100 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for comments, guys!

@ Brewmaster It was my first time to play the scenario and I see how it is so powerful. The organizers of the tournament modified it but the fact that the player who has the tower in his possession earns 1000VP is a huge bonus anyway.

I was also surprised he still kept Abomination and Doomwheel on flanks. Even if he wanted to, he could keep them closer to other units. I also wonder if it is not a good idea to keep random movement units as a second line so that they cannot speed up towards the enemy too early. I am sure he will adjust his tactics if he picks up Skaven anytime soon. With a release of new VC, however, I think I will have a chance to play against them sooner :)

Indeed, GR didn't use their shooting this game (although that failed panic test was unlucky) and I am sure you can use them much better.

As to panic tests I try to make them less painful by spreading BSB and Archmage a little. It means they are still 12" from each other but then BSB covers some part to one side and Archmage covers 12" to the opposite side. Thanks to that I can increase number of units having Ld 9 and/or give re-roll to other units. Together they improve chances of passing Ld tests in approximately 36" long line, so not that bad. :) But even if I do fail a panic test once in a while I should still have some units to fill gaps.

@ Leitran It is a great advantage of this army that you can deploy some units and still do not show where your main hitters will go. I really like that even at an expense of +1 to the roll of for 1st turn. Having so many units also prevents any scout infiltration which can be a nice advantage too. I think in this scenario he did better than in our previous game (although then he was much closer to breaking my army) but I would pack all his units on Eastern flank and play refused one too. His idea of surrounding the tower, changing my garrison into clanrats and then deny any entrance to it failed but I still think it is viable approach. However, the fact that often I had drain magic in play made him reluctant to go for IF to do so.

I must add here that I am extremely grateful to Wardancer from warhammer.org who played against me in that series of preparation battles. If I know roughly how to use that army is mainly thanks to him. I am sure he will soon find a way to beat me and changing armies in the meantime probably didn't help him to achieve it quicker. :)

Cheers!
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
dabber
Tactician
Posts: 3037
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: USA

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 07 updated 07.01

#101 Post by dabber »

Why did you charge both units of archers into the eastern slaves on turn 2? If you send in only one unit, the bell cannot counter-charge you, and the second archer unit can shoot something, like finishing off the survivors of the slave garrison.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:There was also one situation I would like to ask your opinion on. When doom wheel fled it rolled 10" while both DP units got 9" each. So they could not catch it. But it fled into slaves and apparently it has to stop 1" away from the unit, meaning it was fleeing 9" in total - hence we ruled that out as if DP cought it in pursuit anyway. Is that a correct way?
No. What matters in breaking from combat is the dice rolled (and the extra Skaven +1). Nothing else matters for catching the fleeing unit. The rolled flee distance was higher, so it escapes.
Note that this is completely different from fleeing a charge, where movable distance matters and the specific dice numbers do not. Whenver you find yourself comparing fleeing a charge to fleeing from combat, you are probably making a mistake.

Additionally, the Doomwheel does not stop 1" short of the slave unit when fleeing. It flees through it. See the Skaven Errata, 4th page. Unless there is something else I am missing, but that wording seems exactly on point.

Brewmaster_D wrote:My condolences on having to play that awful, awful scenario
I agree. Building rules are not suitable for auto-winning a game. Or giving up 1000 VPs, which is almost the same thing. Building rules need some mechanic for allowing extended combat, or piling on, or something.
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 08 updated 22.01

#102 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi dabber!

1. Archers vs. Slaves

Somehow I got paranoid and thought I might not be able to roll good enough and wanted to make sure at least one unit charges in. It was a mistake. I should spread units or charge with only one as you say. If I charged with one he would see my flank. On the other hand, if we played doomwheel properly, it would blck the charge but I should not have counted on that. So yes, I agree it was not good idea and cost me both units.

2. Fleeing Doomwheel

I don't know why exactly we did what we did. We were a little confused and in the end made a wrong call. Quite embarassing :oops: but I hope it would not change the game much. The good thing is that after such mistakes one remember the correct way better :)

3. Buildings

Well, there is nothing I can do about it. I guess it will be a difficult scenario as taking the tower will have a massive impact on the result. Will see how am I going to deal with it during the tournament :)

Cheers!
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 08 updated 22.01

#103 Post by Curu Olannon »

Another impressive win! I think you played very well here and I continue to be amazed at all the favourable combat situations you manage to get yourself in ;)
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
User avatar
GhostWarrior
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:03 pm
Location: Johnson City, TN

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 08 updated 22.01

#104 Post by GhostWarrior »

Hi Swordmaster, excellent report! I do have some questions regarding the DP fights against the Doomwheel:

Was he Grinding at all in the 3 rounds of combat? To my recollection, that occurs at the beginning of the fight (before ASF, not sure if same time/before impact hits). I've lost many-a valueable elf before getting to stike at the doomwheel, though it is only D6, so he could have just as easily been rolling 1's for number of hits.

Also, did he shoot his lightning bolts from the wheel into combat on his Turn 2? Did you/he know that it could do that?

It just seems that the whole Doomwheel v Dragon Prince situation was very lucky for the High Elves. If you were to run that situation several times, I wouldn't be surprised if the Doomwheel didn't come out on top more often :? (though it would depend on the grind rolls and lightning bolt strength).

Overall, well played! I definitely have a healthy respect for the ability of MSU High Elves to pick the matchups they want, and cause an opponent problems with combo charges and target saturation.
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 08 updated 22.01

#105 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi GhostWarrior!

This what I meant by his unlucky rolls. He tried to shoot, to grind but all for nothing. Either the strength of the shot was 2 or he rolled a misfire. Then his D3 (or is it D6? need to check!) grinding were also low and on top of that I saved these hits. On the other hand can you believe that these 10 3+ to hit with a re-roll S5 attacks of DP (and 6 attacks while charging with smaller unit) caused exactly 0 wounds? :)

I am not saying that DP vs DW situation is good for elves but then I had some speed and armor against his close combat attacks, he was out of LD bubble of the general so I thought I had a good chance to get him with both units and even if I lost both in the process I would call it a good exchange as this infernal machine couses too much trouble!

Cheers!
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
GhostWarrior
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:03 pm
Location: Johnson City, TN

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 08 updated 22.01

#106 Post by GhostWarrior »

I looked into it a little more, and you're right, it is only D3. :D Not only that, the bolts do allow armor saves (I had assumed they didn't). Now I'm wondering if my regular Skaven opponents (and there are a lot of them around here) have been playing the DW right.

Your DP charges make even more sense to me now, well played and well thought!

I guess I have mental scars caused by DW's against my 7th ed Ogre Kingdoms Army (D6 wounds by those bolts is rediculous!).
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 08 updated 22.01

#107 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hm, I am not sure but I guess we might have played the bolts as if they offer no AS. Thanks for info! :)

As to mental scars, I know what you mean :) Sometimes your imagination is your worst enemy and makes you reluctant when you should act with confidence. I guess in order to heal them you have to run a few "simulations" or just pick the best tool for the job and go for it! To give you a good example, I was freaking out when I hear a word "abomination". :) Now, although I still have a huge respect to sheer damage this monster can do, I believe I am in a better position to hunt it down and my enemy has more problems to keep it alive :)

Cheers!
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 08 updated 22.01

#108 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

CanCon 2012 - Introduction

Greetings!

As promised, I begin a series of reports from CanCon2012! It will take me some time to write it all up so you have to forgive me if it will take longer than you might expect. I might not remember all the details either but I will do my best to give you reporst as smooth as possible in such circumstances. There will be some photos from each battle as I tried to take a few as it is always a great thing to have in a report. :)

Let me start with some brief description of the event. I am told it is the biggest Festival of Games in Australia and I was amazed by the number of games, stores and other things games related present there. The venue was huge and easily accomodated all the participants, spectators, whole families even, as many people came to buy toys, have a look at different games, maybe even take part in demos or in one of the many tournaments. From table top games I think only Warmaster and Epic were missing. There was big 40K tournament with probably twice as many participants as in WHFB, Flames of War guys had three (sic!) tournaments going on, there were some for Warmachine too and probably some more. It was all fantastic and I just only wish I had more time to look around what is going on in some other parts of CanCon.

WHFB tournament had 76 participants and all places were taken before the event! Gamers from all over Australia went there and it was a great opportunity for me to meet new people. The tournamment itself seemed like a tough one as special characters were allowed but people didn't really take them. I also thought there is no comp score but I was mistaken. However, the system was very interesting and I have never encountered anything like that before.

In general each player could collect massive 300 points. Only 160 came from battles (which we played 8 during 3 days, simply great!). 20 were to be earned by painting, although this one was all-or-nothing score. If you had fully painted army you got 20, if not, you got 0. Simple but efficient way to encourage people brought painted armies. :) 40 came from some kind of sports cathegory but it was also relatively easy to get. Basically, at the chart each player was given there were 5 questions one had to answer about their opponent in particular game. The questions were more or less as follows:

1. Was my opponent friendly?
2. Did he have a clear list and made sure I understand everything?
3. Did we sort out rules questions in a nice way?
4. Did my opponet play fast enough?
5. Were actions of my opponents clear?

So as you can see it was easy to get another 40 points. And last but not least up to 80 points were to be earned from composition score obtained before the tournament. Composition score was given by tournament organizers based on army lists players had to send them earlier. I don't know what exact guidelines were used to calculate that score but players pack said you will be punished if you had an army with double Hydra for example.

What is more 1/8 of the composition score was added to earned Victory Points after each battle. For example, if your army got a composition score 48, then 1/8 of that is 6. Let's say you win your first game 12-8. Then your total score from first battle is 18, while youf opponent, who might have had a more fluffy army with composition score 8 for one game would end up with 16 points. Then that score was used for drawing next opponent.

This meant that two things happened during the tournemant. First, even if you had a weaker army from the point of view of composition score and you lost the total score was balanced out and you could still earn quite a lot of points by the end of the tournament. On the other hand, if a player had a filthy list and didn't win hs previous game by large margin there was a good chance you could still meet a tough army in your next battle.

Tournament organizers decided to play all scenarios from the rulebook with a slight modification to blood and glory and watchtower. In blood and glory scenario when one army was broken, the opponent was automatically given 2400 points plus extra points only for slain general, bsb and standard, while loser also gained points for all slain regiments/characters in opposing army. In the watchtower the army which controlled the tower by the end of the game got extra 1000VP.

Ok then, that is all for the introduction :)
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
Elessehta of Yvresse
Well played Sir
Posts: 7811
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: CanCon 2012 - Introduction updated 30.01

#109 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

What comp score did you get, I heard they used one of the other big events here comp system, it apparently worked great there and again this time.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: CanCon 2012 - Introduction updated 30.01

#110 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Tiralya!

I got massive 64 points so each battle I added 8 points to my score. :) I didn't talk about it with other players much so I don't really know what others think about it.

Now back to writing the first report :)
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
Elessehta of Yvresse
Well played Sir
Posts: 7811
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: CanCon 2012 - Introduction updated 30.01

#111 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Amazing! Damn, now I can't wait to hear how you represented!
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: CanCon 2012 - Introduction updated 30.01

#112 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Battle 01 - Dawn Attack

It was quite a surprise for me and my opponent Nick to find out we are going to play against our own armies. Fortunately our forces were also much different from each other and that ensured a very interesting game for both of us. :)

High Elves

Archmage, Level 4, Dispell Scroll, Foliarath's Robe - Lore of Light
BSB, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix

30 Archers, Standard, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame
10 Archers, Standard, Musician
10 Archers, Standard, Musician

21 Swordmasters, Full Command, Ironcurse Icon
30 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery
8 Dragon Princes, Musician

3 Great Eagles

Probably a typical HE army with horde units. Definitely efficient against other 8th edition style armies. It had an advantage in magic due to banner of Sorcery and his big units are difficult to defeat one-on-one but I had an advantage in the number of units and was in general much more manouverable.

Deployment

Image
Deployment after Vanguard move

Image
Armies arrayed for battle - Western flank

Image
Center and Eastern Flank

Nick deployed his army on one flank as his army managed to appear together and no unit had to deploy on the opposite flank. My army was not that lucky. Both Dragon Princes units and one unit of Spears had to be deployed on the Western flan, while archers, reavers and one eagle deployed on the East. It was still ok but I was a little dissapointed I could not shoot at enemy eagles while his superior fire base had a clear line of sight. Ah well, beauty of dawn attack scenario especially with MSU style army :)

Enemy Archmage had Shem's Burning Gaze, Pha's Protection, Net of Amyntok and Birnona's Timewarp.

My BSB had usual Shield of Saphery and Drain Magic, while the Archmage got Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery, Fury of Khaine, Flames of the Phoenix and Vaul's Unmaking

Purple High Elves won the roll off and chose to start the game.

Purple High Elves - Turn 1

Image
Cautious approach of the "enemy" commander

What is probably not known by other races High Elves have means to hone their battle skills during War Games. It is a very sophisticated and magical energy consuming test which is rarely organized but every elven commander is looking for an opportunity to take part in one. Mages of Saphery ensure that no elven warrior dies in the process but the pain they feel when the are "cut down" is quite real. The purpose of the test is to test armies in conditions as close to reality as possible so no warrior and no commander is going to risk bold moves knowing they are not going to die or to do something they would not perform otherwise.

Commander of the Purple army moved cautiously. He knew his units are stronger in their big formation but he has not seen such formation of his "enemy" before and decided to proceed with care. Anchoring his fire base he moved his stronger wing forward with a vanguard of great eagles.

Purple Archmage decided to speed up his companions with Timewarp but he channeled too much energy and in resulting explosion 7 archers perished. A little shaken from the unexpected erruption archers aimed at opposing spearelves guarding enemy archmage and first blood was drawn.

Blue High Elves - Turn 1

Image
Blue Elves are much more aggressive

Image
The race begins

The commander of Blue Elves decided to move quickly. His archers were out of position and in smaller numbers to start a shooting contest so he ordered White Lions to move straight at the enemy firebase, while spears and one swordmaster unit followed. Two other run around the tower, protected from shooting. On the Eastern flank light cavalry and eagle used their speed to reach protective line of woods at the same time preparing a flank charge.

One the Western flank one Dragon Princes unit fell for an eagle trap and charged one of the birds, killing it easily and overruning into another. Other unit of knights, spearelves and eagle prepared for delaying moves and to keep enemy Lions busy.

Purple High Elves - Turn 2

Image
Purples countercharge!

Image
Blue cavalry trapped

Purple Elves decided to counterattack. One eagle had to charge blue spearelves to make way for galloping heavy cavalry which unfortunately lost two knights in the charge through woods. It was worthy, however, as blue knights were completely surprised and broke from combat. Purple cavalry restrained from pursuit leaving that duty to the eagle. In the meantime archers aimed at white lions with battle standard bearer and although they were protected by thick furs still some chracians fell to the enemy arrows. The purple archmage cast net of amyntok on his counterpart in the spearelves unit, hoping to shut down his ability to cast spells.

Blue High Elves - Turn 2

Image
Blue Elves waste no time and attack!

Blue Elves continued their more aggressive approach and attacked with fast elements. On the East Reavers charge through woods at unexpecting archers, break them but cannot catch them as the enemy shooters flee through entire formation of their own army.

In the center White Lions attempt to charge enem heavy cavalry which elects to perform feigned flight so chracians swiftly redirect into egle which was to slow to take into air and was caught before it managed to escape. Seeing the opportunity Spearelves also charged fleeing eagle to swiftly redirect into heavy cavalry and purple knights had to change the direction of their flight, hiding behind Swordmasters. The rest of the army followed quickly.

Purple High Elves - Turn 3

Image
The Purples remain in their entranched position

Image

The Purples rally their fleeing troops and redress ranks. Only Swordmasters, now with an Archmage, attempted to charge White Lions who fled and drew the enemy from their battle line. The Archmage then cast Pha's Protection to cover all the units close to him while archers aimed again at their enemy. However, small unit was defnitely shaken by the enemy nearby ready for another charge and missed while bigger regiment didn't score many wounds either.

Blue High Elves - Turn 3

Image
The Blues continue their assault

Image
More combat!

BSB of the Blue Elves leads his depleted unit against horde archer to keep them busy and also away from enemy Swordmasters. Blue Archmage also urged his bodyguards to join the fight but they misjudged the distance. He protected the lions with Sheild of Saphery however. They won combat easily but enemy archers remained steadfast.

On the East Ellyrian Reavers and Eagle attacked another small archer unit but due to pha's protection light cavlary missed and they were now locked in combat with a unit they were supposed to break on the charge.

On the West Spearelves didn't hesitate to attack enemy Swordmasters from the flank. Their orders were to keep them in place for a while until other units can hit them from the other side. Spearelves won combat but Swordmasters held, although just and only after strong voice of their BSB reached them and urged them for greater efforts.

Also Dragon Princes got bored with cautious movements and charged the last of the enemy eagles, easily killing it and pursuing into the Lions Den. It seems that this time Caledorian pride is going to be their undoing. Other units again closed the distance to the enemy hoping to support their fighting companions.

Purple High Elves - Turn 4

Image
The Purple Elves break through

In their ferocious attack Blue Elves left the opening and although Swordmasters were too hard pressed to reform, the archers charged in to support them. Blue Spearelves didn't hold against that and were run down. Swordmasters pursued into the eagle while nearby Dragon Princes payed the ultimate price for their arrogance.

To give his warriors even better chance to perform against their foe Purple archmage cast Timewarp and Blue archmage failed to stop this powerful spell. It was disastrous as blue BSB was killed. It looked like Purple HE were going to stem the aggressive advance of the Blue HE.

Image
Final push and the catastrophe at the end

Image
The last effort of the Blue High Elves (apologies for blurry picture)

The loss of the BSB was painful but the Blues kept fighting. Swordmasters joined the fight against archers but again Pha's Protection was golden and not only Archers managed to hold but killed remaining 2 light horse of the blue High Elves. Their companions in the bigger unit killed remaining few lions too.

The Archmage and his Swordmasters, as well as Spearelves took the opportunity and charged exposed flank of the purple swordmasters with the archmage-general. Blue archmage tried to cast some protective spell and when he thought he got it right something went terribly wrong. Before the combat started huge erruption killed all but 2 spearelves and a handful of swordmasters. As a result blue HE were so stunned that the Archmage was easily cot down, while swordmasters didn't do any damage at all. Both attacking units broke from combat and pursuing purple swordmasters cought the spearelves.

With that last act the War Games were over and despite aggressive attacks of Blue High Elves it was Purple commander who won in the end.

After-battle thoughts

I lost 3-17. Very painful indeed. I made some mistakes and could play better but some unlucky rolls really cost me a battle here. Especially in that last charge. I had a good roll for Winds of Magic and the plan was to have shield on archmage against Swordmasters attacks and then to switch off the robe for the Purple archmage. With static combat result alone I was winning. He had only 3 attacks from timewarped swordmaster while I had ranks, flank and more attacks from my own swordmaters. The erruption meant I lost my ranks and possiblity to hit him. So instead of killing the archmage and a unit all worth 700+ points I lost 600 points. It would be a draw at least. Ah well, sometimes dice have their own plans :)

Don't take me wrong, however, the game was great and Nick was a great opponent. But in his own words, the result does not reflect what really happened in the game. I was also a little dissapointed that my reavers didn't overrun into another archers and didn't catch the first unit. I needed 6" to hit second regiment and of course got 5" :) Then that unit held against reavers, eagle and finally swordmasters. Not having re-rolls to hit really hurt both of us :) I also completely forgot that big archer unit had flaming attacks and didn't use the 2+ ward save on BSB. He would have lived and even on his own could at least keep wining the combat against archer horde. Light magic definitely helped my opponent to survive the combats and even hit me back badly.

I will post some more thoughts on what I would do differently or what I consider to be a mistake. In the meantime you are more than welcome to post your comments :)

Cheers!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
Elessehta of Yvresse
Well played Sir
Posts: 7811
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: CanCon 2012 - Battle 1/8 updated 30.01

#113 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

High Elves vs High Elves, always tough. Nick is pretty active on WargamerAU, he represents HE on there a lot.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: CanCon 2012 - Battle 1/8 updated 30.01

#114 Post by Curu Olannon »

I love the War Games intro :D Really makes sense!

As we had anticipated prior to the game, your army will struggle against shooty-heavy lists. In addition, the wide flanking manoevre allowed him to pick you apart one unit at a time and the normal combo-charges we're so used to seeing you pull off never happened in the same spectacular fashion here.

Anyways, great writeup :) Can't wait to see the rest!
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
User avatar
~Milliardo~
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:50 pm
Location: Tor Skylla, Saraeluii Mountains

Re: CanCon 2012 - Battle 1/8 updated 30.01

#115 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

I think the biggest reason he struggled was because of having ASF negated - the MSU HE build seems really dependent on striking before its opponent. Ironically, the worst match-up for MSU HE seems to be regular ol' horded up HE.

Well played anyway mate - you moved up on him so quickly he couldn't redeploy or out flank you, so that was a success. I think you jumped the gun a little bit though and moved on him quickly without isolating his units first, although with the shooting I understand why you'd feel so rushed. Great game though! I look forward to the other 2. :3
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: CanCon 2012 - Battle 1/8 updated 30.01

#116 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Morning! :)
Tiralya wrote:High Elves vs High Elves, always tough. Nick is pretty active on WargamerAU, he represents HE on there a lot.
I have just registered on that forum as it would be great to catch up with all the guys I met. One of my opponents, Nasher, has already started a topic linking my battle reports so I better be quick with writing the other games up. :)
Curu Olannon wrote:I love the War Games intro :D Really makes sense!
Cheers! I don't like the concept of the civil war so had to come up with some fancy explanation instead :)
Curu Olannon wrote:As we had anticipated prior to the game, your army will struggle against shooty-heavy lists. In addition, the wide flanking manoevre allowed him to pick you apart one unit at a time and the normal combo-charges we're so used to seeing you pull off never happened in the same spectacular fashion here.
We anticipated? :P

Curu, are you sure you are talking about my game? ;) Because it is hard for me to believe you could make comments which are so irrelevant :shock: Let me explain :)

1. Struggling against shooty army - His army indeed had a solid base of 50 archers. However, he had 2-3 rounds of shooting that game and killed 5 spearelves and 7 lions. It is hardly an return in investment in 50 longbows he was looking for. It was minimized by the fact his targets had good armor protection against shooting and were further buffed with 5+ ward save. Then he was in combat and his shooters had to fight for their own life. How is that struggling is beyond me. :)

2. Picking my army apart - He didn't. He played good defensive game knowing very well that if he moved forward I would have easier job to envelope him and Nick was too experienced a player to do that. However, it also seemed he didn't have good plan how to tackle small units so he played safe and waited for me to come, hoping his shooting can do some damage (which unfortunately for him didn't work). His Lions did nothing whole game and it was my mistake that they saw combat at all. His cavalry did not do much either, hiding behind Swordmasters and not being able to help archers either. It was something completely else that gave him the victory and I am really surprised you missed that. :(
Curu Olannon wrote:Anyways, great writeup :) Can't wait to see the rest!
Be sure there will be more and the battles were really interesting (I dare to say for my opponents too :)). Just be patient, as it takes time and I can do that in the evenings only. It will be a funny switch from painting to writing for a couple of weeks for me now. I think it is possible for me to give you next battle report every 2-3 days which is good as we will have some time to talk about them too :)
~Milliardo~ wrote:I think the biggest reason he struggled was because of having ASF negated - the MSU HE build seems really dependent on striking before its opponent. Ironically, the worst match-up for MSU HE seems to be regular ol' horded up HE.
I am really glad you said that as it was exactly the thing that hurt both of us. Without re-rolls it was the sheer number of attacks we could have for particular combat and Nick either had more dice to roll or decreased my chances to hit with his magic. The fights I would usually win easily (Spears on the flank of Swordmasters, Light Cavalry against Archers) ended up in bashing each other with fake swords :) Excellent observation, mate!
~Milliardo~ wrote:Well played anyway mate - you moved up on him so quickly he couldn't redeploy or out flank you, so that was a success. I think you jumped the gun a little bit though and moved on him quickly without isolating his units first, although with the shooting I understand why you'd feel so rushed. Great game though! I look forward to the other 2. :3
I think he did feel a little overwhelmed. Just compare how active were my units in a movement phase and how little he moved in his. As I said, he was an experienced opponent and played safe when he could not see the point in chasing small units across the board.

You might be correct as to going against his units too early and indeed I just didn't really want to give him an opportunity to shoot more. On the other hand the light cavalry attack was exactly on time and if it worked the way I wanted it would give him even more problems to solve.

Ok, some of my own analysis from the game :)

1. Depolyment - Could have been better. It was a little unlucky to have archers on the wrong flank but I could have fixed that. After seeing how the battle turned out I would deploy them perpendicular to the front of deployment zone, facing my center. Then I would march there and start shooting at his eagles or Swordmasters from turn 2-3 (depending when I could be in range). It would see them useful and didn't create the problems on the Eastern flank as I could not queue the units properly there. I would also deploy one lion unit closer to the Western forest with Spearelves to their flank and Lions with banner as they were. Then two units of swordmasters behind them and one to be send to run around the tower. The reason for that is that I was too afraid of his shooting and hence the wide flanking maneuver. His shooting would still be dangerous but I would have my magical attacks Swordmasters threatening his archmage and some more units to contain his combat regiments while I take care of his fire base. Despite that I think I made some mistakes during the game which were more important for the outcome.

2. Overruning with DP against second eagle - I didn't see that trap. He basically held my unit and could counter-charge with his cavalry. It gave me an opportunity to attack him too but from the point of view of tactical principles it was not good thing. If I didn't overrun I would have a chance to flee from combat, save the unit and still have him contained in the corner.

3. Making his DP flee twice - I believe it was one of the two biggest mistakes in that game on my part. His eagle was fleeing and he was in front of his Swordmasters so if I had left them alone they would rally but would block lions and swordmasters too. I should have used that phase to move my Western DP to position for flanking attack, spears would also be close enough to add some ranks and I could push another units of spears and lions. Having intact eagle there as well meant I could create a situation when he would have to hold or risk being caught if elected to flee again.

4. Charging Eagle with DP - another mistake. I could have parked DP in front of the bird and again block Lions behind it and render them useless as well as I would protect the flank of fighting spears. Because I removed that obstacle for him I had to overrun to block his regiment and simply lost my own cavalry. To add insult to injury I also parked my eagle wrong and let archers charge spears too, while they could have held (still fighting from the flank due to failed combat reform of purple swordmasters) and give time for my other spears and swordmasters to finish the job.

5. Charging spears into Swordmasters - you might think it was a mistake but I believe it was not. First, I had a chance to break them so I took it. He was taking Ld test on 6 with re-roll so the odds were not that great for him and I strongly believe it was worthy doing. Second, the Spears were there to slow the enemy down and by attacking them I gave more time for other units to finish off the fire base.

6. Charging WL into horde-archers - if I only remembered about these flaming attacks my BSB would have lived :) It would mean less points for my opponent but also an opportunity to break the archers again. He was losing the combats but since he was steadfast and with BSB nearby he kept fighting. It did look as a premature charge but I really wanted to stop them from shooting. Oh! It seems I completely forgot that in his turn 3 he actually attempted to charge with his horde against my Lions (and I wanted him to get there!) but he failed his charge roll. What made a difference in that combat was the fact he had many attacks and there were no re-rolls. Also the fact that I could not break small archers, even with Swordmasters, didn't help.

7. Early charges in general - I agree that it was not that crucial to attack so early and more patience would probably give me better results. Positioning units in a better way and creating more opportunities for charges so that even if one unit fails there are enough others to make up for that. I guess I need to be cooler when considering the options and do not jump at any opportunity the game presents just because I can and just because there is a chance I can get a proper reward :)

8. Magic - I think Nick used his magic in a very good way while I didn't use the full potential of mine. He managed to get his spells and Banner of Sorcery definitely helped him doing so, while sometimes I simply could not roll enough to stop his magic. On the other hand I was too focused with trying to switch off his items that I forgot I got much more useful flames of the phoenix which I should have try to cast at archers or swordmasters. That would give me much better chances in combats.

9. Last turn explosion - and other things that didn't work :) All of it added to the huge point loss in the end. That was simply unlucky and that how it is in Warhammer games sometimes. I could have played safe but if it worked I would greatly benefited from the outcome. Maybe next time :)

Thanks again, Nick, that was a great game against fantastic opponent and I really enjoyed it! :)
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: CanCon 2012 - Battle 1/8 updated 30.01

#117 Post by Curu Olannon »

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 96#p744796
Curu Olannon wrote:Furion's list for example would be a real nightmare for you
Though this isn't Furion's army, it has a lot of the same elements - all-archer core with a horde, and a big unit of WLs.

In general, this is how I saw the game:

- His shooting forced your infantry in a long, sweeping manoevre
- As such, they didn't kill much, but you couldn't get decisive enough combats either

I personally believe that your explosion, although very costly, did not affect the fact that he would win. Maybe my analysis is poor here, but it looked like you were in a really bad spot with his 2 big combat units intact and several of your own units weakened. Assuming you hadn't blown up, what would've happened? He would've remained steadfast, and in his next turn the combat blocks would've been ready to meet you head-on. His Archer horde could've handled the Lions, which leaves the central combat (which his Lions can take care of) and your Eastern units, which are still far enough away to wait for even another turn by sacrificing something to block.

I'm by no means an MSU expert, but this is (in a nutshell) how I perceived the game from this BR. If I were to play his army against yours, I believe I would've wished for exactly this - Archer horde centrally placed, with weaker archers on the refused flank. Other flank with heavy duty combat troops to wheel around your entire centre. Though he didn't execute this perfectly (Lions were somewhat awkwardly placed), the start of the game was pretty much a textbook refused flank scenario. It reminds me very much of how Furion used to play his list, in particular I'd say the game he had against Daemons (and killed a GuO T1) was fairly similar to this.

I've got plenty of patience and am really looking forward to seeing reports every couple of days :) I think it's a good decision to split them up as well and I will consider doing this myself when I play multiple games in a short span of time.
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
User avatar
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Location: On the path of an outcast

Re: CanCon 2012 - Battle 1/8 updated 30.01

#118 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Curu,

I thought I have explained well in my summary for the battle why I lost but it seems you stick to your opinion as if it was the most important thing for you in the world :) There is really nothing wrong in admitting a mistake :)
Indeed, two makes plural so you can use "we" :P
Curu Olannon wrote:Though this isn't Furion's army, it has a lot of the same elements - all-archer core with a horde, and a big unit of WLs.
Elements, my friend, are not the army and little difference in details makes huge difference in the style the army plays. Furion's army was designed to kill the enemy from afar. Nick didn't have that other key elements. No High Magic to get Curse of Arrow Attraction. No magic missiles and no magic bows either. Do you really think that both armies are similar just because ~1000 points out of 2400 were spent on the same units? :shock:
Curu Olannon wrote:In general, this is how I saw the game:

- His shooting forced your infantry in a long, sweeping manoevre
- As such, they didn't kill much, but you couldn't get decisive enough combats either
Hm, "my infantry" in that game which went in the wide run around the tower was really 2 units of Swordmasters and one of which reached the target. Two units that didn't reach the combat (White Lions and second Swordmaster unit) simply rolled low for charge distance. Again, I didn't lose because I was destroyed by shooting/magic, he didn't force my entire army to march to him for 4 turns and fail to fight as I was in combat from turn 2 and 3. Curu, where is your math-hammer when you really need it? Why didn't you run your simulations to see what were the odds of that small unit of archers holding so long? :P
Curu Olannon wrote:I personally believe that your explosion, although very costly, did not affect the fact that he would win.
Really? Hm, let's add the numbers, shall we? I lost the combat due to explosion which gave my opponent 600+ points. If I only kept these points it would change the score from 3-17 to 5-15. Next, I had a very good chance to win that combat and break him, which would give me another 800 points (his archmage was more expensive than mine and Swordmasters with Banner were not cheap either). That's 11-9 for you. Sure, a win but as close to a draw as possible with only that single situation. Again Curu, where is your math-hammer when you really need it? :)
Curu Olannon wrote:Maybe my analysis is poor here, but it looked like you were in a really bad spot with his 2 big combat units intact and several of your own units weakened.
Your assessment of the game is indeed poor, I am afraid :)
Curu Olannon wrote:Assuming you hadn't blown up, what would've happened? He would've remained steadfast, and in his next turn the combat blocks would've been ready to meet you head-on. His Archer horde could've handled the Lions, which leaves the central combat (which his Lions can take care of) and your Eastern units, which are still far enough away to wait for even another turn by sacrificing something to block.
The pictures are blurry but if you looked carefully you would notice following things:

1. There are 13 models left in his unit. It means that I needed to kill only 1 to get rid of his rank bonus.
2. Spears (14 of them) were touching only his archmage, they could not fight but could not be hit back, keeping their ranks and breaking the steadfast of the enemy anyway since he didn't have more ranks than me.

Some more relevant points:

3. The explosion meant I lost almost all Swordmasters and after that only one remained to hit instead of 2 in base contact and 3 supporting. I lost additional 5 attacks in that detonation.
4. He was not in range from bsb for that break test. Without any wounds inflicted he was looking at one Ld6 break test.
5. That was 4th and last turn of the game, he could do nothing with any of his units. I have already said I made a mistake with DP on the West, by keeping them in front of the Eagle I would have blocked his lions without a risk for being charged. Add 160 points I lost because I made a mistake here.
6. I have already mentioned I forgot about BSB ward saves. That is another 270 points I should have not given the enemy. With him alive and WL charging in I had all the tools I needed to break the big unit (as they were already melting and had only 7 archers in the second rank). Also, for the third time, tell me, what are the odds that 2 reavers with shield of saphery, swordmasters and eagle on the flank cannot finish 7 archers?

All these points are really to show just one thing. The game was very close. Much closer than the result suggests until last turn when I lost Lions, Reavers, BSB, Archmage and unit of Spears. Due to lack of ASF and less than average performance of the all fighting units (as well as some mistakes on my part, which I have mentioned several times already) I didn't even win combats I should have won earlier.

If after all that you are going to tell me I lost because he had more archers and it took me too long to get into combat as well as his units picked my army apart one by one, then I will give up! :P
Curu Olannon wrote:I'm by no means an MSU expert, but this is (in a nutshell) how I perceived the game from this BR.
I am not an expert either. Your conclusions are wrong in the principle and not because you don't play with MSU type army. :)
Curu Olannon wrote:It reminds me very much of how Furion used to play his list, in particular I'd say the game he had against Daemons (and killed a GuO T1) was fairly similar to this.
I think you quote Furion's list way too often and your conclusions are clouded by your admiration for his army list. :) The battle you quote was not even close to what have happened here :)
Curu Olannon wrote:I've got plenty of patience and am really looking forward to seeing reports every couple of days :) I think it's a good decision to split them up as well and I will consider doing this myself when I play multiple games in a short span of time.
There will be some more for sure, although this time I will keep them all in a single topic. The preparation to the event and the tournament itself were simply great so it deserves to have everything in one place. :)

Cheers!
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: CanCon 2012 - Battle 1/8 updated 30.01

#119 Post by Curu Olannon »

To be honest, posts like this make me wonder if you want to argue or get feedback. Of course I know that his army isn't a copy of Furion's list, nor did I say so. However I know perfectly well the damage all-archer core can do to elves (as I play it myself) and this was the point. As to his army being similar to Furion's - I simply said it has a lot of the same elements.
Indeed, two makes plural so you can use "we"
Stuff like this makes no sense. You know very well that I wasn't the only one who said that shooting could be a problem for you, so what exactly are you trying to accomplish with this? To me it seems to be nothing but flamebait, which frankly I could do without on Ulthuan.

Lastly you never said that this was the last turn of the game. My analysis is based on the fact that there are 2 more rounds to go (as normal games do) which would allow his main combat blocks to counter your approach as your units weren't coordinated. As this was not the case, this is obviously flawed and you're correct - in this case the miscast cost you a LOT.
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
Brewmaster_D
Posts: 579
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Location: Kitchener, Ontario

Re: CanCon 2012 - Battle 1/8 updated 30.01

#120 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Swordmaster!

Tough break on the first match man. By the sounds of things the rest of them went a bit better though. Still, tough way to start a tournament. I also hate scenarios like this in a tournament setting. Objective based scenarios are a different story because you can formulate a strategy before deploying your troops, but with Dawn Attack, you are really at the mercy of the dice for deployment. A couple wrong rolls, and bam, your archers are useless, etc. In a competitive setting I'm looking to get outplayed, not outrolled.

I think what hurt you the most here was trying to get some of your key shock troops around that building in the East. The loss of ASF rerolls definitely hurts, however the MSU style still works in concept without them - if you catch a unit on the flank or rear, you reduce their damage and in the case of units with parry you increase your own. This is particularly true versus horde units, who invest a significant number of points on the assumption that they can engage you with the front of the unit. Your list is well designed, and can strip them of that assumption rather quickly, however in this case I think the refused flank went just a bit too refused, causing your troops to stagger in piecemeal, if that makes any sense. The majority of your army doesn't engage him until Turn 4, which is a stark contrast to your previous games.

I think what Curu is getting at is that the effect shooting has on a game extends beyond the casualties that occur as a result of it. You're correct, from a pure casualties viewpoint, his shooting was relatively ineffective. However, this is because you went to great lengths to hide the key shooting targets - swordmasters. However, putting them on the flank like you did kept them from engaging the enemy when they were needed, and kept your battle line divided by the building. This stripped you of one of your key advantages, making his shooting very effective in a very indirect way. You were in combat on turn 2 & 3, yes, but they weren't favourable combats like they normally are.

Unfortunately, with units so small, there's no real way to avoid the vulnerability to mass shooting. You either have to surrender a positioning advantage like you did in the game, or accept that you're going to have to take some casualties and difficult leadership tests. It's just too bad you couldn't get flames on that unit of archers - that would have been huge! I think that with your firing base and two key redirectors being forced to be in the East, though, you were fighting an uphill battle from the get-go.

Finally, there's no reason to get defensive and antagonize somebody for reading your report and giving you feedback. If you don't agree with their statements, that's fine, but at the end of the day we have a great community here, and if people are posting in your thread it is because they want to see you succeed and help you refine your list and/or playing.

D
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35454]Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35478]The Art of Deployment[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35380]Writing Army Lists[/url]
Post Reply