CanCon 2012 - Summary updated 17.02

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Prince of Spires
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 03 updated 26.11

#31 Post by Prince of Spires »

dabber wrote:Guys, the targetting restrictions on old book spells are TOTALLY UNKNOWN. There are large threads on every Warhammer forum about it, including this one.
Which was kind of my point when I said:
rdghuizing wrote: Both arguments have valid points (although of course I think my interpretation fits the rules best). Pick the option you think works best and discuss it with your opponent or 4+ it.
I don't have all the answers. I was just pointing out that there are multiple interpretations of the rules, which could all be valid. No one knows for sure. So find an interpretation you like and talk it over with your opponent. If no conclusion can be reached, 4+ it.

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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 03 updated 26.11

#32 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

I had another opportunity to play yet another game for my preparation to the tournament. Again Daemons but this time meeting engangement was the scenario we played. The modification from tournament organizers is about victory point calculations so let me know if you are interested and I will post the details on that matter. Other than that the scenario is exactly as in the rulebook. I hope to finish the report this weekend but for now I will give you a teaser in the form of a deployment diagram. Cheers!

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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 04 teaser updated 09.12

#33 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

Good job getting the DP across from the Flamers. Looking forward to the report. :3
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 04 teaser updated 09.12

#34 Post by Siegfried VII »

~Milliardo~ wrote:Good job getting the DP across from the Flamers. Looking forward to the report. :3
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 04 teaser updated 09.12

#35 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hello!

I managed to prepare diagrams today so decided to write up the battle report while I still remmeber what happened. :) I must admit that I start liking playing scenarios as they add to the variety of games and little changes here and there are quite fun. Blood and Glory this time, yet another scenario I have not had a chance to play yet. Let's see how did it go. :)

Army lists and pre-battle considerations

Daemons of Chaos were still of the slaaneshi kind in their majority but other chaos minions were present too. This time the list looked like follows:

Daemons of Chaos

Keeper of Secrets, Level 4, Siren Song
Herald of Nurgle, BSB Great Icon of Despair, Noxious Vapours
Herald of Slaanesh, Siren Song
Heralnd of Tzeentch, Level 2, Master of Sorcery - Lore of Light

20 Deamonetess of Slaanesh, Full Command, Siren Standard
12 Deamonetess of Slaanesh, Full Command
2 Fiends of Slaanesh
5 Furies
10 Horrors of Tzeentch
6 Flamers of Tzeetnch
20 Plaguebearers, Full Command, Standard of Seeping Decay

No more horde formation and instead of relatively fragile (as for a deamon) slaaneshi BSB a very resilient Nurgle BSB appeared together with his retinue of plaguebearers. This is definitely a unit very hard to grind down and I decided to avoid it if possible and engage only if I have enough units to attack it from many directions at the same time. Killing the herald would make destroying the unit much easier but T5 and regeneration means it is not an easy task. I was also concerned with a combination of Ld affecting Phantasmagoria in conjunction with Icon of Despair. A very potent combination indeed.

High Elves

Archmage, Level 4, Annulian Crystal - High Magic
BSB, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant

20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician

10 White Lions, Musician
10 White Lions, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Musician
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Bows, Spears

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

For a while I was considering taking Light and/or exchanging one unit of Swordmasters for yet another unit of Reavers but since I haven't had enough time to really think it through I decided to take exactly the same army as last time. Besides I have just started and no changes are really required yet.

Deployment

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Tight formation of Daemons vs. elven swarming

Keeper of Secret for this game got: Acquiescence, Succour of Chaos, Pavane of Slaanesh and of course Phantasmagoria. Elven BSB got Shield of Saphery and Drain Magic while Archmage rolled Shield, Drain Magic, Curse of Arrow Attraction, Courage of Aenarion and Fury of Khaine. High Elves chose their ground carefully and deployed South. Howling Daemons seemed to be eager to taste elven flesh and moved forward immediately.

Daemons of Chaos Turn 1

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Nurgle and Tzeentch allies seem to be herded by Slaaneshi daemons towards elven lines

Army of daemons moves forward at a steady pace as elves are yet too far away to attack. However, the distance between two forces was short enough for sorcery. First, herald of tzeentch tried to summon power of banishment but it seemed like he was unable to cast a spell from pure light lore (isn't it ironic that daemons can cast banishment? good idea Mr. Ward :P). On the other hand, Keeper of Secrets easily clouded minds of elven warriors with visions of fear and terror and high elf Archmage was unable to dispell these illusions. Taking advantage of his adversary lack of concentration, Greater Daemon focuses on Dragon Pinces straight across the battlefield. Their thoughts vanish and the only notion that remains is to get towards the enemy, no matter how stupid it might be. Horrors of Tzeentch add their powers and 3 Reavers are consumed in Flickering Fire. Flamers spotted Archers just behind elven heavy cavalry and killed 3 of young warriors. Their companions panicked and run away from the fiery daemons.

High Elves Turn 1

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Elven units begin their dance around the enemy

Elven units moved quickly towards the flanks to envelope the enemy while Archers rallied. Dragon Princes overcomed the spell that rendered them stupid for a while and seeing Flamers ahead spurred their steeds and charged, engulfed in flames but protected by their famous dragon armour. Archmage managed to add to their protection with Shield of Saphery and also reduced the amount of available energy with Drain Magic. Despite overwhelming fear, Dragon Princes showed their skill with lances but one of them succumbed to deadly flames. As a result of vicious combat Flamers almost lost their connection with real world and only one of them remained in this dimension of existence. It was enough, however, to stop impetous knights. Not wanting to be considered any worse in their trade, Archers opened fire at Furies and only single flying creature remained alive after that.

Daemons of Chaos Turn 2

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Daemons are countercharging but do not yet advance at speed

Keeper of Secrets charged exposed knights and sent remaining Fury to distract their companions. Stupid creature didn't understand simple order, however, and instead of distracting Dragon Princes on the flank simply landed in front of them not even looking at them. Fiends attempted a long charge against the Archers but they performed a tactical retreat. The rest of the damonic host kept the tight formation and didn't horry towards elven regiments.

Keeper of Secret focused titanic amounts of energy and elven Archmage could only watch as in result yet again resolve of his warriors across the battlefield was shaken. Greater Daemon did not contain whole of the power and in the erruption 3 elven knights fell to the ground while daemons remained unscathed. Truly a devilish attack. The last of the Dragon Princes tried to finish of the Flamer but Keeper of Secrets long reach ended his life too.

High Elves Turn 2

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Elves attack on the right flank

Left flank and center of elven army moves further and continues envelopment. Archmage casts a curse at last flamer and soon enough it is pierced by the arrows. Elven wizzard summons more power and magical missile strikes horrors with a fury of Khain himself. But magical shields save some of them and only 3 disappear for good.

On the right flank Dragon Princes ride through single Fury as if the flying daemon was not even there and follow into fiends which were already attacked by Great Eagle. They stroke with precision but Daemons were protected by their evil energy and although wounded none of the two was destroyed. They even hurt the Eagle badly and dragged down one knight from his steed.

Daemons of Chaos Turn 3

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Daemons stop their advance

Daemon army stops its advance in order to protect the flanks. Keeper of Secrets destroys elven light cavalry while Fiends finish the eagle and kill one more knight but elves keep fighting. Magical energies are very low and an attempt of herald of tzeentch to destroy elves from afar are dispelled by the archmage.

High Elves Turn 3

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Siren Songs draw some units out into suicidal charges

Before elven warriors found out what is the source of the disturbing song one unit of Swordmasters could not resist the call and charged towards the greater daemon. Even an eagle was not immune and soared high towards Daemonettes who seemed to be so far away. Swordmasters knew that they are dragged into suicidal charge and tried hard to at least wound the daemon but it prooved to be too tough even for their great swords. None of them survived that charge. On the nearby hill Dragon Princes and Fiends hacked each other and their fight continued although only one fiend remained and one more knight perished. Archmage in his attempt to drain the energy from the field didn't contain all of it and he and battle standard bearer were wounded by the magical feedback.

Daemons of Chaos Turn 4

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Daemons start to move back

Daemons start to move back now still reluctant to engage elven units on the left flank. Plaguebearers and Keeper of Secret turn towards the White Lions who now occupy Blood Forest. As greater daemon manages to turn one White Lion unit into dumb brutes the trees get angry and 3 Chracians from each regiment perish in the bloody forest. On the right flank Dragon Princes finally managed to destroy last fiend but only 2 knights remain alive now.

High Elves Turn 4

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Powerful charge on the left flank

Finally in the position for a co-ordinated attack elven units on the left flank charge as one against Daemonettes. Only one unit of White Lions moves forward as if not seeing the enemy nearby. Archmage destroys 3 more horrors and casts Shield of Saphery on White Lions in the forest hoping it can save them when the daemons attack. Archers aimed carefully from afar and Keeper of Secrets roared in rage as one of them found its mark.

In the massive combat elves fought as best as they could but unfortunately both Swordmaster units could not overcome sudden fears that overwhelmed them and their efficiency in comabt was greatly reduced. Nevertheless, soon only command group and the herald was all that remained from once big host of Daemonettes. Suddenly without a foe to fight, leftmost Swordmasters and Spearelves reformed to face new enemy.

Daemons of Chaos Turn 5

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Daemons countercharge

Daemons countercharge seeing an opportunity to break elven advance. Keeper os Secrets attacks exposed flank of White Lions. Another chracian regiment in the forest is at charged by plaguebearers. Finally, deamonettes follow an example of their master and attack into a single line of Swordmasters facing them. Keeper of Secrets manages to cast only one spell but does it irresistable force and again elves are not that resolute as they used to be.

White Lions in the forest fight as best they can and even wound the herald but 4 of them dies too. 3 remaining warriors refuse to give ground. Keeper of Secrets kills another unit but not before one of the Lions wounds it too. Swordmasters kill two more Daemonettes so only champion and herald remains but cannot hold and are run down in pursuit. Their companions kill no less but 6 Daemonettes but lose 5 of their numbers and flee too. Fortunately they are not pursued and survive.

High Elves Turn 5

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Last cavalry charge

After the carnage in the center the battle is not yet finished. Spearelves hold against two reckless daemonettes and last 3 Swordmasters rally. Dragon Princes spotted lone herald of tzeentch and charge it. Archmage summons enough power to grant magical protection to white lions while battle standard bearer does likewise for Spearelves. Finally Archmage curses Keeper of Secret and two more arrows found their marks.

Dragon princes destroy herald in no time and level their lances to charge greater daemon in heroic attack to avenge their fallen companions even at the cost of their lives. Only one White Lion remains but true to his guardian duty he keeps fighting. On the left flank Herald of Slaanesh is still fighting against impregnable ranks of Spearelves.

Daemons of Chaos Turn 6

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Keeper of Secrets is finally banished!

Both armies lost many units and the battle entered its final moments. Daemonettes moved away from the line of sight of elven units and any casting attempts were dispelled. Herald of Slaanesh finally persihed but so did last brave White Lion. Proud Dragon Princes pierced balck heart of greater deamon but with its last sweep of massive claw it killed both knights and vanished completely. Daemons were pushed back to their realms but at a great cost.

After battle thoughts

I didn't believe I could destroy Keeper of Secrets but eventually I did it! And that also meant Daemons reached their break point so according to scenario rules they lost. However, even if DP didn't succeed I had Swordmasters and Spearelves to attack next turn. I think I might have a chance to inflict that last wound in my turn. I am of course very happy I didn't have to!

That was a bloody battle and combination of Phantasmagoria and icon of Despair costed me greatly. I had bad luck in dispelling that spell first turn then it was cast twice with IF. That was the reason I charged with 4 units against single enemy to have enough attacks to destroy it. Unfortunatley Swordmasters, the main killing machine of the army, failed their fear tests and some daemons remained. At that point I could have lost the game. Spearelves passed their panic test, however and I had some tools to finish the foul daemons. Also passing stubborn tests was great to keep plaguebearers occupied (shield of saphery helped too). My mistake was to position BSB a little bit too far away from the combat near ruins but I though my opponent is going to charge White Lions in the forest with his greater daemon and then I would be on his overrun path.

I think that this army list is the best of the 3 daemons armies I faced and it can be very dangerous as it already showed. Both old schools of magic are great too. They are less spectacular than new lores but are useful in a more subtle way. We both enjoyed the game of moves and counter moves and it is great to have an army that keeps fighting despite inevitable loses.

If you have any comments about the game and/or performance of each army feel free to post. I would greatly appreciate your feedback.

Thanks for reading! :)
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 04 updated 10.12

#36 Post by Siegfried VII »

Great battle report mate and I love the use of msu units. I was a big fun o this approach back in 7th edition, so it is nice to see the playstyle can still be usable. :)

Commenting on the battle I feel that your opponent got intimidated by the sheer number of units you could muster and that imo was the reason he was reluctant to advance and be more aggressive.

I believe that if he had been more aggressive, he might had better chances against you. On the other hand though if he did not do it in a tactical way, he might have been in a worse situation...
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 04 updated 10.12

#37 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Great report Swordmaster, loving the new style of list.

I'm inclined to agree with Seigfried on this one - because of the sheer number of units you have, I don't think your opponent really knows how to effectively strategize versus your list. Essentially your opponent was very conservative, forgoing several charge opportunities, allowing you to set up a *very* painful combo charge on his Daemonettes.

Thing is, those troops are coming regardless, so really the onus is on him to try to eliminate them individually as much as possible before you have a chance to get them all into the same combat. His goal should be to try to create situations where he can eliminate your units one at a time. With a list like yours, though, that's easier said than done!

Another great read, keep 'em coming!

D

PS. *mandatory lore of light plug* I really, really think you should try light out with this list. All of the spells are useful in a list like this, and a bubble timewarp in that combat versus the daemonettes would have been a sight to behold.
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 04 updated 10.12

#38 Post by Siegfried VII »

Brewmaster_D wrote: PS. *mandatory lore of light plug* I really, really think you should try light out with this list. All of the spells are useful in a list like this, and a bubble timewarp in that combat versus the daemonettes would have been a sight to behold.
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 04 updated 10.12

#39 Post by Prince of Spires »

I think the best way to deal with a MSU list like you are running is to hit one part of it as agressively as possible. This is something we haven't seen done against you yet, but I think it's the only way to deal with the many units you run.

Basically, pick a part of the army (left, right or centre doesn't realy matter, just pick a part) and hit it with everything you have. Because the units are so small, the aim is to make them disappear before reinforcements arive. Once one part is gone, then the rest becomes easier to deal with.

That said, I would say well played. Perhaps you should have applied a bit more pressure to the right flank, to roll it up a bit sooner and leave more DPs alive. That would probably have meant abandoning the centre, which is risky, but could work.

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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 04 updated 10.12

#40 Post by Seredain »

Hey Swordmaster,

Congrats on the win - a very entertaining report. It was justice that you nailed the Keeper in the end: those big daemons are very dangerous against small units so I was pleased to see him fall at the last. Your core deserved some credit here, I think. Against daemons, they really earn their points in my experience.

The debate on magic is an interesting one. I love the idea of taking High magic pretty much because of Vaul's Unmaking (eat Giant Blade, dreadlord!), but I've found the beefed-up power of the new lores too tempting- especially the innate abilities which High lacks. I think Tethlis has found a really good way to use it, from what I've seen of his reports: access to Shield of Saphery and Drain Magic is definitely worth the price of a back-up caster.

Really like the new list. I'm particularly looking forward to watching it take some hordes apart...

Keep up the good work!

P.S. Rod is right on the money about the best way to take apart MSU armies. If it were me, I'd be looking to hammer your army one portion at a time with arrow fire and then cavalry charges, while preventing your flocks of small units from moving laterally across the field, to counter my attack, by having my other units threatening the middle ground. I think that, against this sort of assault, you'll need to conjur up some 'defence in depth' tactics so that, when a threatening charge eventually comes to a halt, you have multiple units ready to counter-charge. Properly deployed, I think your list should take some punches but be able to counter-attack en masse and smother larger enemy units (I thought the mass attack on the daemonettes was ace!). Scatter your units too widely across your deployment zone, however, and armies with decent ranged power and heavy fast-attack could give you problems.

I'm looking forward to seeing you develop a unique playstyle on this one. :)
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 04 updated 10.12

#41 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hey guys!

Thanks for comments and apologies for a delay in responding. I really appreciate your input and I am glad I can add to the very big pool of battle reports we can enjoy these days :)
Siegfried VII wrote:Great battle report mate and I love the use of msu units. I was a big fun o this approach back in 7th edition, so it is nice to see the playstyle can still be usable. :)
I spent many hours at Druchii.net when it was designed and I was not patient enough back then to make it work. And I did have doubts it can work under 8th edition rules but Mr. SmithF at warhammer.org.uk showed enough examples that it can work and against powerful build too. And I must say it is very interesting and enjoyable to play fantasy-chess now :)
Siegfried VII wrote:Commenting on the battle I feel that your opponent got intimidated by the sheer number of units you could muster and that imo was the reason he was reluctant to advance and be more aggressive.
That is partially true as although he might not have enough experience with Daemons just yet he simply knew that being more aggressive could lead to even more dangerous situations and would give me an opportunity to tear his army apart. While keeping units together to an extend prevented enveloping them early in the game.
Siegfried VII wrote:I believe that if he had been more aggressive, he might had better chances against you. On the other hand though if he did not do it in a tactical way, he might have been in a worse situation...
Ah, I have just started to talk about it. :) Who knows, maybe there was a chance to be more decisive in his approach and he definitely made some mistakes. His flamers in particular were not used properly this time. I think they should have been kept behind the lines. But then, he also was concerned with my archers targeting his Keeper, hence his shooting against them and an attempt to get rid of them with a charge of Fiends. Fortunately for me both units rallied despite Phantasmagoria in play. He also tried to kill my DP with banishment but either could not meet the casting value or the winds of magic were not strong enough and he chose to cast Phantasmagoria more often (and I don't blame him for that choice).

Despite that the battle was bloody and when we calculated points it was a difference of 500 in HE favor. Of course scenario rules mean that after break point the victory points are calculated in a different way but it is just to show you that the battle was not one sided at all and it could have gone either way many times.
Brewmaster_D wrote:Great report Swordmaster, loving the new style of list.
Thanks!
Brewmaster_D wrote:I'm inclined to agree with Seigfried on this one - because of the sheer number of units you have, I don't think your opponent really knows how to effectively strategize versus your list. Essentially your opponent was very conservative, forgoing several charge opportunities, allowing you to set up a *very* painful combo charge on his Daemonettes.
He said he didn't risk in their particular case as he knew I would flee with some units then come back with more and probably with his regiment in much less favorable position. And he almost made it with counter-charge of the Keeper and smaller unit attack. Maybe he should have restrained with Deamonettes? But then, it was my turn anyway. I guess the crucial mistake was not anticipating that DP attack on herald and their overrun on Keeper. Also, his Plague Beares could not finish WL quickly enough (Shield of Saphery for the win!) to offer support.
Brewmaster_D wrote:Thing is, those troops are coming regardless, so really the onus is on him to try to eliminate them individually as much as possible before you have a chance to get them all into the same combat. His goal should be to try to create situations where he can eliminate your units one at a time. With a list like yours, though, that's easier said than done!
Indeed! But I am sure given time he will find the way to do so :) He did that before when started to play with VC and OK so no reason it should not be possible with Deamons.
Brewmaster_D wrote:PS. *mandatory lore of light plug* I really, really think you should try light out with this list. All of the spells are useful in a list like this, and a bubble timewarp in that combat versus the daemonettes would have been a sight to behold.
I do agree that it might be awesome to have that situation. And that is also the reason why it was so difficult for me to make a decision with which lore to stay for some time. I know I am breaking your heart but I gave my full explanation in this topic: Light Lore or High Magic
rdghuizing wrote:I think the best way to deal with a MSU list like you are running is to hit one part of it as agressively as possible. This is something we haven't seen done against you yet, but I think it's the only way to deal with the many units you run.
Indeed. And what I have observed from other battles with MSU armies it seems that people try to counter that with ... their own MSU :)
rdghuizing wrote:Basically, pick a part of the army (left, right or centre doesn't realy matter, just pick a part) and hit it with everything you have. Because the units are so small, the aim is to make them disappear before reinforcements arive. Once one part is gone, then the rest becomes easier to deal with.
I agree but to make it more difficult again I need to learn how to use flee and angling of attacked units properly so that destroying my units takes longer or creates difficult situations for the opponent after he takes care of particular regiment. That would make for a very interesting game and I have seen it done already so I know it is possible. It is my turn to do so and with HE too :)
rdghuizing wrote:That said, I would say well played. Perhaps you should have applied a bit more pressure to the right flank, to roll it up a bit sooner and leave more DPs alive. That would probably have meant abandoning the centre, which is risky, but could work.

Rod
I did try to overwhelm his units on right flank. But unfortunately his Fiends made 3/4 saves what meant that 2 of them were still fighting and that held the advance. I didn't think sending one more unit (like WL) over there would be good as in doing so I would expose their flank to Plaguebearers. On the other hand that would drag them further from the center too so who knows, maybe it would have been a better idea. The funny thing with MSU army is that you have many options for deployment and movement that there are always good ideas to try out. So keep these suggestions coming and I will see if I can apply them next time :)
Seredain wrote:Hey Swordmaster,

Congrats on the win - a very entertaining report. It was justice that you nailed the Keeper in the end: those big daemons are very dangerous against small units so I was pleased to see him fall at the last. Your core deserved some credit here, I think. Against daemons, they really earn their points in my experience.
Thanks Seredain! It was actually quite interesting as I was shooting at the Keeper more due to lack of better target and each inflicted wound I treated as a nice bonus. Than Archers added 2 more wounds and suddenly it become quite possible to kill it. So I took the opportunity and just charged in with two remaining DP. It was very nice indeed as my initial plan was to avoid the beast as long as possible.
Seredain wrote:The debate on magic is an interesting one. I love the idea of taking High magic pretty much because of Vaul's Unmaking (eat Giant Blade, dreadlord!), but I've found the beefed-up power of the new lores too tempting- especially the innate abilities which High lacks. I think Tethlis has found a really good way to use it, from what I've seen of his reports: access to Shield of Saphery and Drain Magic is definitely worth the price of a back-up caster.
At some point I was considering mixing lores, i.e. taking Light Archmage and High Magic BSB. But it looked to me that my army, unlike in the case of Tethlis and Ptolemy, that does not benefit from such option. I would struggle to find enough power dice to cast spells from both casters. While with both having HE I have that redundancy with Drain Magic and Shield and with stronger winds of magic I can try to cast all of it too. As I have mentioned before, more reasons why HE magic for a time being are in my Army List topic.
Seredain wrote:Really like the new list. I'm particularly looking forward to watching it take some hordes apart...

Keep up the good work!
Cheers! My next challenge is the army of smelly Beastie Boyz. But do not expect anything typical, as my opponent likes to field unorthodox armies. He has mentioned, however, that he intends to bring some herdstone and no less but 4 shamen (level 4 + 3 x level 1) all using Shadow to mitigate the speed of my army with Miasma. If he does this I will face a magic spam of cheap spells attacking one of my main advantages. Also, with many chariots he can match my MSU number of deployment drops and that will definitely will be a game where the winner will be the one who controls movement phase better. Any suggestions? :)
Seredain wrote:P.S. Rod is right on the money about the best way to take apart MSU armies. If it were me, I'd be looking to hammer your army one portion at a time with arrow fire and then cavalry charges, while preventing your flocks of small units from moving laterally across the field, to counter my attack, by having my other units threatening the middle ground. I think that, against this sort of assault, you'll need to conjur up some 'defence in depth' tactics so that, when a threatening charge eventually comes to a halt, you have multiple units ready to counter-charge. Properly deployed, I think your list should take some punches but be able to counter-attack en masse and smother larger enemy units (I thought the mass attack on the daemonettes was ace!). Scatter your units too widely across your deployment zone, however, and armies with decent ranged power and heavy fast-attack could give you problems.
Playing against another army which uses movement phase a lot and has more shooting will be a challenge. I do believe, however, that with what you called "defence in depth" might be a help here. The idea is to create such a situation that even if the unit is attacked and beaten down then next turn the victorious enemy is surrounded, beaten back in turn and with overrun/pursuit/reform I can make a new battle line and be closer the the other units of my foe for another punch, constantly keeping the pressure. It will remain to be seen if I can pull it off and to an extend Deamons were a good match for me. Not that much shooting, less units etc. I hope that the games I have at the moment will give me that instinctive feeling when and how to disperse my units and when to attack with everything I got (like in the case of big combat last game. I was really disappointed that I placed my BSB a little to far away for the middle Swordmaster unit to re-roll fear test. It would be great to break through such a big block in a single charge :)). I am also very happy that I can play quite regularly and I will see if I can make it happen that I have a game or two each week, against various opponents and armies.
Seredain wrote:I'm looking forward to seeing you develop a unique playstyle on this one. :)
Cheers! I will definitely add more reports and when the tournaments comes I hope to perform much better than last time. :)
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 04 updated 10.12

#42 Post by DarthSabre »

Hi Swordmaster,

Another great report. I have been following your posts with interest. =D>

I have signed up for Cancon so will probably see you there.

Whilst inexperienced with WHFB it should be a good weekend.

One point - how do you feel the WL's are going? Whenever I use them they seem to die quickly and not do much. :(

SM's on the other hand seem a must for any elven army. :wink:

At 2400 points do you think a Prince type character is necessary - I am trying to have a list with high troop count and a prince takes alot of points.

Thanks
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 04 updated 10.12

#43 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi DarthSabre!

Thanks! I am glad you like my reports! As to Cancon then sure, it should be a great fun, that is why I signed in! Although I wonder how am I going to survive 3 days of gaming :)

As you saw my WL didn't survive the last battle either so I might not be the best person to ask how to make that happen. :) I suggest you browse through many reports around here and see how people use WL. There are many ways to do so but at least you can see them in action in different combinations. Then think what would be the way you like to see them perform. Do you want a proper tough and big stubborn unit? Or maybe smaller but quicker regiment? Or maybe even split one big into two medium ones? As long as you know what you want them to do you can work towards the specific tactics for them and how to use them together with other elements of the army.

Prince indeed is expensive. If you are looking for an example of how to have one and still have uite a few units to play with then there is no better than Seredain's army blog. More compact but very successful lists with a Prince are run by Ptolemy and Tethlis. It seems I failed to succeed with a Prince but I still like the idea of having one. Again, as long as you know what you want him to do you can make it happen. Try to play a few games with and without him and then you will see what suits you the most. In the end this is the most important part. You need to enjoy playing with your army and when it happens you will become better and better with it.

Good Luck! :)
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 04 updated 10.12

#44 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

I have another battle report for you. This time Beastmen and an unknown scenario to me so far, Meeting Engagement. :)

Army lists and pre-battle considerations

My opponent is very kind to field different armies and he actually uses that opportunity to try out some unorthdox builds. It makes his life a little more difficult as he has to learn fast and any mistakes due to lack of experience with particular army can back-fire badly. But I never underestimate him as our battles are usually bloody and the end result does not give justice to what actually had happened during the game. As always, I present his list from my memory and I will update the details as soon as I get them.

Beastmen

Beastlord, Fencers Blades
Great Shaman, Level 4, Dispel Scroll - Lore of Shadow
BSB, 1+ Armor Save
Shaman, Level 1, Chariot, Skin of Man - Lore of Shadow
Shaman, Level 1, Shard of the Herdstone - Lore of Shadow
Shaman, Level 1 - Lore of Shadow

30 Gors, Full Command, Additional Weapons
30 Gors, Full Command, Additional Weapons
5 Ungor Riders
5 Ungor Riders
5 Ungor Riders

30 Bestigors, Full Command
Razorgor Chariot
Razorgor Chariot
Razorgor Chariot

This particular army aimed to dominate magic phase. With a herdstone and 4 attempts to channel it should have enough of power dice to cast whatever spell it wants as I will not be able to block everything. Although multiple Miasma can slow down any army significantly it would potentially be a biggest problem for MSU army as it needs its movement phase to be efficient. I am not that worried about Pit of Shades or Mindrazor as with small units even S3 attacks can be enough while the damage for entire army would be minimized. Bear in mind that this army was not designed to counter HE MSU but rather to mess up with vital characteristics for particular army. Any big infnatry unit, with their Primal Fury, can be deadly when Mindrazored too. Razorgor Chariots are, however, very problematic for my HE. My shooting is not strong enough to damage it and with impact hits and many high S attacks, these guys can destroy my small unit on their own.

The weakness of this force is, however, its LD. LD 7 at best if not assisted by a character means that I should try and inflict as many tests as possible, especially for chariots to take and hopefully drive them away and deny the opportunity for combined charges against my units.

High Elves

Archmage, Level 4, Annulian Crystal - High Magic
BSB, Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Radiant Gem of Hoeth - High Magic

20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard,
20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician

10 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
10 White Lions, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Musician
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Bows, Spears

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

A slight change to the army list. I left the item for the BSB and with saved points I got Standard for one unit of White Lions and transferred Banner of Eternal Flame to this regiment. In this battle it probably is not going to mean anything but adds a little error margin for Blood and Glory scenario as well as creates a dedicated monster hunter regiment in the army.

Deployment

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Only single unit and character were kept in reserves for both armies as they arrayed for battle

Beastmen won the roll off and chose East-South as a deployment area. Single Gor unit with Beastlord were kept in reserves and Beastmen army deployed first. HE kept one unit of Dragon Princes and BSB in reserves and then attempted to steal the initiative but were not successful.

Following Spells were obtained by respective wizards:
Great Shaman - Miasma, Steed of Shadows, Pendulum, Mindrazor
3 x Shaman - 3 x Miasma

Archmage - Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery, Curse of Arrow Attraction, Fury of Khaine, Vaul's Unmaking
BSB - Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery

With the sound of hornes Beastmen army begun their advance.

Beastmen - Turn 1

Image

Beastmen moved forward keeping their living shield of Ungors in front of the battle line. Gor unit with Beastolrd entered the battle too and moved towards Western flank. Razorgors secured the flanks of infantry units while 3 Shamen were ordered to stay close and perform any vile rituals at their herdstone as they seem to think fit to ensure the victory for dark gods. Soon elven Archers were engulfed in evil fog and their usually kin senses were blunt. They even lost two of their numbers to crude barbs thrown by ungor riders.

High Elves - Turn 1

Image
High Elves spread their formation even further to envelope their foe

The center of elven formation pulled back slightly to draw their enemies furhter towrds their lines. At the same time cavalry moved forward, with light horse using open plains on the West to their full advantage. Archmage managed to cast magic missiles towards the Razorgor Chariot but the machine proved to be very resilient and was only slightly damaged. The attempt to render some of the magic items carried by the foe was stopped by Great Shaman who read his Dispel Scroll quickly before it could be turned into ashes. Archmage managed to drain some energy from the field but would it be enough to stop dark rituals close to the herdstone? In the meantime elven Archers tried to pierce the evil fog which engulfed them and even managed to skewer one ungor despite losing thieir arrows without even seeing the enemy.

Beastmen - Turn 2

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Beastmen army continues their advance

Beastmen kept their steady advance, closing distance to thin elven line. Beastmen shamen were occupied with their ritual so much they could not channel additional magical force but their unholy stone still radiated with dark energy. And again elven Archers found themsleves in the mist of black fog, which dispersed only a little to get thicker the second after. Great Shaman also used his dark magic to swap positions with BSB and now he was leading Bestigors to the battle.

High Elves - Turn 2

Image
Elven elites strike hard from the center at the most exposed gor mob

Although the enemy was not yet that close elves decided to wait no longer. One White Lion regiment pretended to attack ungor riders in the forest and when they fled, redirected their charge at their true target - Gor mob with BSB. They were not alone as Swordmasters sped forward and calculated their distance perfectly to reach the enemy lines exactly at the same time when White Lions hit the front rank. In the bloody melee many gors fell, their BSB among them, his magic armour not enough to save him. But remaining beastmen kept fighting regardless (EDIT: It was only after the battle that we recalled that in the forest the unit is not steadfast. Even more reasons to charge big blocks with small elite units!.

The rest of the army moved to positions to encircle more compact beastmen battle line. Especially elven cavalry and one eagle were eager to get to unprotected shamen behind enemy lines.

Beastmen - Turn 3

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Beastmen attmpt to counter-attack

Bold attack of High Elves visibly shook Beastmen as their units were not able to perform co-ordinated counter-attacks. The razorgor chariot on the West charged Archers in the runis who fled behind the cover. The one in the center attacked White Lions in hope to relieve fighting Gors. Then third chariot wheeled to be able to add its support later. Bestigors attacked the eagle which blocked their advance and reformed towards the unengaged White Lion regiment. There seemed to be some weird pattern in Beastmen Shamen behaviour as they focused on their ritual and failed to channel any more energy than already drawn from the dark stone. It was enough, however, to slow down one unit of Dragon Princes and affect the unnatural skills of Swordmasters so that they hacked with their great swords in a clumsy, human like manner. (EDIT: I had 13 attacks this round, hitting on 4+ with re-roll and then wounding on 3+, I inflicted massive 2 wounds :)) Razorgor chariot avoided trees at all cost but it affected the way it eventually entered the combat and only single White Lion died due to the impact caused by it. In this mad hack and slash this time Beastmen got an upper hand but both elven units kept fighting. In the meantime Shaman in chariot urged his driver to charge reckless elven light cavalry but somehow tuskgors didn't want to co-operate and instead of full impact charge they performed dignified trottle towards the fresh ground nearby and promptly started their search for some new tasty things hidden under the surface.

High Elves - Turn 3

Image
High Elves continue their attack

Second White Lion units charged in order to relieve their bloodied companions. Razorgor chariot fled rather than be attacked by ferocious chracian hunters and they had an open way to the flank of gors still locked in the fight. This time only single Gor survived and it escaped pursuing Lions and Swordmasters whom it fought for so long. Flanking White Lions restrained and reformed to face Bestigors.

On the West Swordmasters charged Ungors hoping to cut them swiftly and panic nearby chariot. Unfortunatley bigger beatmen didn't care for their smaller kin at all. On the East Dragon Princes charged Ungors as well. Second unit of heavy cavalry tried to charge past them at a razorgor chariot but had to stop as their charge could not hit home. However, this time the destruction of lowly ungors must have unnerved razorgor as it pulled away from elves and run away towards the safety of the herdstone. Nearby Swordmasters and Spearelves moved forward to close the gaps.

Light cavalry and Great Eagle spotted a chance and charged Shaman in chariot in unison. Although not a single blow hit home on either side the sheer pressure was enough to break and run down beastmen spell caster. Pursuing Eagle cought his companion too and another fight was about to begin.

Archmage scanned through any magical residues of any items among bestigors but to his surprise he found none. It also losened his focus as he drew too much energy and although he managed to dissipate it and also drain it for a while from the battlefield it erased the memory of that spell from his mind for the duration of the battle.

Beastmen - Turn 4

Image
Beastmen try to break through the Western flank

Situation looked grim for Beastmen but their leader has not given the signal for retreat yet. Razorgor chariots rallied and faced their enemies once again. Bestigors entered the woods and it was clear that this forest has not seen the end of the carnage yet. Razorgor chariot on the West charged the Archers in the ruins and almost destroyed itslef in the process but in the end managed to kill the elves. Gor unit with Beastlord attempted a charge at Swormdasters who withdrew. It alse seemed that the attack of elves on beastmen nearby their herdsotne started to break their focus and they were unabled to cast much. Only great eagle was forced to fight blindoflded and didn't inflict any damage on his adversary and the fight continued.

High Elves - Turn 4

Image
Relentless attack of High Elves continues

High Elves didn't stop in their attack and charged again with fresh regiments. Spearelves who until now were protecting the venue towards the back of elven battle line charged exposed bestigor flank together with White Lions hitting from the front. These elite warriors were offered additional magical protection in the form of a Shield as they were about to take on the furious beastmen elite head on. However, it was at a cost of massive detonation that killed 5 Swordmasters and almost costed live of the Archmage. It did help a lot, however, as many deadly attacks were deflected. Beastigors lost the combat but didn't break under the stern and unforgiving eye of their Beastlord.

Other elven units also pressed forward in order to break dark rituals once and for all. Tired and bloodied White Lions and Swordmasters pushed again and finally destroyed Razorgor chariot and Swordmasters carried on towrds Shaman fighting ealge and put the evil spell caster down. Dragon Princes made their charge against Ungors and after destroying them utterly continued towards the rear of the gor regiment. Finally, Elyrian Reavers pulled back and used their bows as they shoud making a pin cushion of the last remainging Shaman protecting herdstone. The ritual was broken.

Beastmen - Turn 5

Image
Finally Beastlord sounds the retreat

In their last attempt to fight back Beatmen charged with all unegaged units. Razorgo chariot pulled back from the ruins but it slowed it down and it could not reach Spearelves. The second chariot charged Swordmasters and as it cought these warrirors in the open they didn't stand any chance to survive. Their companions on the West also were attacked but by gor mob led by Beastlord but decided to stand their ground to buy time for other regiments to redress their ranks for last combat. It was not necessary, however, as bestigors finally broke from combat and were run down by Spearelves who avenged White Lions destroyed to the last warrior in that bloody melee.

Seeing that his units are destroyed almost to the last one and that swift elves can still envelope his personal retinue, Beastlord sounded the retreat and used the passage to the West he has just carved himslef up.

After-battle thoughts

I must admit it was quite unlucky battle for my opponent. First, he didn't get many useful spells, then he regularly failed to channel even a single dice thus making his advantage less significant and finally he often failed even to cast a spell at all. Little bits and pieces added to his frustration when he failed to wound much despite re-rolls to hit or failed quite probable charges with chariots, not to mention rolling a 1 for impact hits.

Saying that I guess he also made a few mistakes that made this battle going well for elves rather than for Beastmen. Entering the woods with Gors was probably a mistake but the one I forgot to capitalize on as I didn't remember about him losing steadfast. In that case I won the combat on the charge, could go behind his lines with 2 units of my elites and finish off his wizards faster, not to mention being able to close in with other units quicker too. He also didn't swap places with his great shaman and beastlord during the second round of combat against spears and lions where his attacks would swing the balance even without so much needed support from the chariot. It might not saved his day but at least he would destroy more units and be free to take on others.

I am not sure aboout the army list. I see why he wants to have so many wizards near herdstone but is it really necessary adn is it good idea to go for shadow I don't know. His Primal Fury is powerful against my units and his razorgor chariots are very tough and if only he co-ordinated his attacks better (like being able to counter-charge in his turn straight away) he would definitely be in a better shape to continue the fight.

As to my own performance I was lucky with some charges (Lions and Swords in turn 2, Spears in turn 4) when I needed 7 or even 9 to hit home. I took the risk as I had units to fill the gaps and make the new battle line so that his units could not charge me without counter-attacks later on. However, maybe I was too eager to get into combat. Especially in turn 4 I could move my units so that more of them would be able to attack bestigors. I was very lucky that the chariot didn't hit home and I could use the mistake of my opponent of not bringing his Beastolrd to the fight thanks to Shadow Lore attribute.

I hope you still enjoyed the battle and report.

Thanks!
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 05 updated 17.12

#45 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I was surprised to see no Beast on his lvl4. All those chariots and no Razorgors?
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 05 updated 17.12

#46 Post by Curu Olannon »

I love to see this army play :D So much flexibility with this approach!

I believe you played this game quite well and congrats on the win :) The lure you created in the middle was excellent and the ensuing break-through on your part was really nice. I do however believe that T2 was a little bit too early to do this, T3 probably would've been better.

What other armies do you have lined up in the near future? It was good to see you being able to outmanoevre an army as fast as Beastmen but I'm very interested to see how this plays against e.g. Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Dwarfs.
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 05 updated 17.12

#47 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for comments, guys!
Tiralya wrote:I was surprised to see no Beast on his lvl4. All those chariots and no Razorgors?
I will ask my opponent about the choices he made. He definitely had some idea how to use it but sometimes the plan do not work the way you wanted to :) His channeling in particular was a disappointment. As to no Razorgors it could be something with either lack of points or having used all special choices. I also asked him why raiders and not harpies and he pointed out that with raiders he made it towards 600 core minimum.
Curu Olannon wrote:I do however believe that T2 was a little bit too early to do this, T3 probably would've been better.
I didn't risk that much in trying as I had units to fill the gaps and create redirections if I failed to reach him. I am even more convienvced I did the right thing in turn 2 when I was reminded about units losing steadfast in the forest (that would see him broken on the charge as he didn't roll double 1 for his break test). Why do you think it was too early? Why T3 would be better? What exactly would you do differently?
Curu Olannon wrote:What other armies do you have lined up in the near future? It was good to see you being able to outmanoevre an army as fast as Beastmen but I'm very interested to see how this plays against e.g. Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Dwarfs.
Skaven are next :) I might have a chance to play against WE but it all depends on time. At the moment I can organize one battle per week (mainly due to time difference) but I will see what I can do about scheduling more of them. I also hope that 8 battles during 3 day tournament will be a nice addition too. But for that you will have to wait until February and even then be patient as it will take some time to process all the photos I hope to take. And that I will not forget the details after such intense event :)
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 05 updated 17.12

#48 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

As a Christmas gift I wanted to give you the battle report from the game against Skaven. I hope I will finish in time. Here is a deployment as a teaser :)

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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 06 teaser

#49 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Reavers pointed at the Warp Lightning Cannon from the start, good move.
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 06 teaser

#50 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks! I kept them to the last so that I place them properly, knowing what is where in my opponent's army :)
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 06 teaser

#51 Post by Maedil »

Hey Swordmaster!

How does 20ish SpearElfs work for you? Do you feel able to break through the oppositions Steadfast in one or two combatphases? I feel that skaven and some degree the Empire can hold out pretty long against our high volume of attacks.

Either way, i am glad your are exploring the classic MSU and thought me alot on deployment and doing serious damage with small units!
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 06 teaser

#52 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Meadil!

I really like my Spears although breaking steadfast is not always an option for them. However, they are quite dangerous at a flank of an enemy unit as they can disrupt it. In this army you get a greatest success when you combine charges. Spears can actually deal a lot of damage to some foe and can help break steadfast but only against the regiments already greatly damaged by other elites. But they are as fast as other elites and are vital for the army, even if their role is slightly different to regiments of 35-40 spears you see in other armies.

And thanks for kind words, I am glad my experience can be used by others as I do enjoy running this army a lot :)
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 06 teaser

#53 Post by Maedil »

Just a follow-up question.

Have you considerd using Banner of Swiftness on one spearunit to gain that upperhand on the flanks in the movementphase? If i havent overlooked it: how come you are not using the First Among Equals rule?
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 06 teaser

#54 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

It's all about points :) I would love to include some little magic items like Amulet of Light, maybe one of the Trickster's to force re-rolls on ward saves, also another cheap banner as you suggest. But by doing so I take away precious troops and each unit is kind of small already. :) But is always something to consider, so thanks for a suggestion!
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 06 teaser

#55 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

I was really looking forward to playing this game. Simple battle line but dreaded and flithy Skaven as my opponent.

Army Lists and Pre-battle coniderations

Skaven are considered as a very tough opponent for many armies and no wonder why. Many infernal machines, abominations, poweful magic and cheap, expendable troops make this army very flexible and with potential to inflict a lot of damage in a single turn. They also have the ability to field different types of units so one can expect some variations in the army lists but it is hard to tell which unit choice is worse for Skaven enemies as whatever they bring is bad anyway :)

Skaven Army List

Grey Seer, Screaming Bell, Dispell Scroll - Plague Lore
Cheiftain, Posion Attacks, Halberd
Cheiftain, BSB, Storm Banner
Engineer, Warp Energy Condenser, Level 1 - Lore of Ruin
Engineer, Doomrocket
Engineer, Brass Orb

40 Clanrats, Full Command
40 Slaves, Musician
40 Slaves, Musician
22 Slaves
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
30 Stormvermin, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame

6 Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings
6 Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings
3 Jezzails with champion

Warplightning Cannon
Warplightning Cannon
Doomwheel
Hellpit Abomination

It looks like a standard Skaven list. There was Storm Banner somewhere but I don't know if it was BSB or Stormvermin who had it. I will also update it with magic items as soon as I find out what exactly Skaven characters were equipped with.

I naturally was concerned with Skaven shooting and I hoped my light cavalry will perform their war machines hunting duty well, especially that during the upcoming storm eagles will be literally grounded. Gutter runners are also an issue but I can deploy wide so they do not appear at my back and if I am lucky and I could hunt them down with heave cavalry. I'd better do it quick too, as they can really hurt my small units.

I decided to deal with magic by casting drain magic no matter what. I think I can get one through each magic phase and that should make casting spells for Skaven a little bit more difficult.

Doom Wheel and Abomination are very dangerous so they are also an important issue to deal with. In general the army has so many of things to address that it is hard to make priorities as they all seem to be the ones that need to be destroyed fast. :)

High Elves

Archmage, Level 4, Annulian Crystal - High Magic
BSB, Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Radiant Gem of Hoeth - High Magic

20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard,
20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician

10 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
10 White Lions, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Musician
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Bows, Spears

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

My army is the same as last time so I present it just for the sake of completeness. I was considering different options and decided to go for a form of wieghted flank approach after seeing the terrain and since my opponent won roll off for sides and opted to deploy North.

Deployment

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Armies ready for battle

Grey Seer got Bless, Wither, Cloud and Plague as his spells and had 2 tokens hidden in his robes. Warlock had Lightning. One unit of Guter Runners was ambushing.

Archmage got Drain, Shield, Curse, Courage and Flames of the Phoenix while BSB had Drain and Shield.

As Skaven won the roll-off again they chose to move first.

Skaven Turn 1

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Steady Skaven advance

Skaven moved forward, keeping their tight formation. Warlock engineer operating Doom Wheel did some target practice on nearby slaves. Cannon and Jezzails aimed carefully and 2 Dragon Princes and Great Eagle perished. The other cannon aimed at White Lions with suspiciously bright banner but killed only one. Gutter Runners shot at archers and two of young elves died too. Grey Seer didn't have opportunity to cast many spells just yet so simply observed the situation from the safety of his Bell platform.

High Elves Turn 1

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Elven units perform encirclement of their enemy on the Western flank

Ellyrian Reavers spurred their steed and galloped towards unprotected cannon with heavy cavalry following closely. All elite units on the Western flank moved forward as quickly as possible to envelope the flank of Skaven formation. Especially Lions with their magic banner focused their eyes on the huge monstrosity moving towards the elven lines. Archers aimed at guttern runners but some strange storm appeared as from nowhere and their arrows could not find their marks. The unnatural weather probably shied elven steeds of Dragon Princes on the East and they could not force them to charge approaching Doom Wheel.

Skaven Turn 2

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Skaven Abomination is getting dangerously close

Galloping Reavers spotted some shadowy figures emerging from some hidden places and two of the horsemen fell to poisonous missiles. The remaining three, however, were kept going towards the cannon. Its crew desperately tried to aim at approaching elves but missed. The other cannon was affected by the storm and seems that skaven magic starts working against their own as much as against elves. Abomination and Doom Wheel rush towards the enemy but are not yet able to reach it. Skaven magic once again proves to be ineffective.

High Elves Turn 2

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High Elves - first to fight!

Both cavalry units on the West attack their targets and both kill them on the charge. On the Eastern Flank Dragon Princes charge Doom Wheel. They inflict a single wound each other and skaven engineer feels very brave this day and keeps fighting. Units on the Western flank perform even more dynamic maneuvre and as the storm vanishes as quickly as it appeared great eagle sores to the sky and lands in front of the abomination to attract its attention. Thanks to that other elven units can prepare a counter attack.

On the East Archers decide to destroy giant rats in close combat rather than waste their precious arrows while nearby Spearelves reform into deep formation.

Skaven Turn 3

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Skaven move more aggressively too

Abomination devours hapless eagle and follows into grim but determined White Lions. Their brethren from the seond regiment are attacked by deadly plague, surely working of a vicious Grey Seer, but remain on the post of duty. Other remigments move forward, especially Grey Seers unit. Infernal inventions of Skaven engineers are unleashed but while doomrocket kills half of the unit of Spearelves then Warplightning cannon malfunctions and disappears in a detonation. Last but not least, warlock engineer happily twists and turns his devilish machine and noble caledor knights fell down.

High Elves Turn 3

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To hunt or to be hunted?

Chracian hunters attack with ferociousness of the Lion they took their name from. But it is not just a monster they hunt today and despite their skill the abominations still lives. One of the unit is destroyed to the last elf but the remaining regiment stands its ground. Units on both flanks charge all slave units in order to prevent outflanking. Many slave rats die but they all keep fighting under stern gaze of grey seer. Elven Archmage manages to summon enugh power to engulf Stromvermin in flames and skaven elite starts to burn.

Skaven Turn 4

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Skaven are winning on the Eastern flank but their Western wing collapsed

Doom Wheel charges fighting Archers from the flank and destroys them completely. Nearby Spearelves are overwhelmed by slaves and flee to be run down in pursuit. Grey Seer orders his unit to attack interfering Archers in front of them but two who remain after the charge show insane courage and refuse to yield! White Lions finally kill the Abomination while Swordmasters on the West kill plenty of slaves again but not without loses too.

High Elves Turn 4

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Elven attack continues

Swordmasters and White Lions charge Stormvermin from two sides. Swordmasters with BSB also try to join the fight in case White Lions are too tired after fight against Abomination but Chracians do not show any sign of it and simply shout to give them space to swing their axes. Spearelves with Archmage move towards the hill instead of charging the exposed flank of clanrat unit, a decision that can soon cost them lives and the army whole battle. Dragon Princes charge gutter runnes who flee and elven knights smoothly redirect their attack at the slaves. Winds of magic are so low that grey seer cannot summon enough power to even attmpt to dispel flames that burn even harder and many more Stormvermin die. Archmage ends the spell to cast it again on the big clanrat unit but his efforts are also not successful.

Stromvermin, who just survived flaming inferno found themselves attacked by elven elites and they didn't even stand a chance to hit back, such was a ferocity of elven attack. Nearby engineer decideds it is good time to flee and report incompetency of grey seer to lords of decay.

Skaven Turn 5

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Will Spearelves hold and win the day for High Elves?

Grey Seer, seeing the opportunity orders his clanrats to attack Spearelves on the hill. To his surprise elven warriors fought like heroes and despite huge pressure from clanrat ranks they held. He was even more surprised to notice that the elven spears are actually much longer than he expected and his last thought was that he must have been cheated and that his army, machines and magic items he payed for with so many warpstone tokens, were not what he thought they are. He didn't figured out who was the traitor, however, as 3 long spears skewered him to his precious bell.

On the West slaves were finally destroyed but elven light horse could not dodge bullets shot by jezzails and fine ellyrian horsemen died bravely, killed from afar by cowardly ratmen.

High Elves Turn 5

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Swordmasters hit the flank of clanrat unit

Elven elites had a few options and it was quickly decided that relatively fresh Swordmasters should hit clanrats with full strength while White Lions buy them time to finish ratmen by charging nearby doom wheel. It was a carnage but although half of the ratment died the rest were fanatically protecting the bell. Elven BSB accepted a challenge from skaven chieftain who had some hidden weapons and killed noble elf.

As the winds of magic were low Archmage cast only Shield of Spahery on White Lions, who won combat but could not break the Doom Whell.

Skaven Turn 6

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Skaven slaves try to fight through elven elites to "safety"

One Skave slave unit is ordered by chieftain to attack Swordmasters and protect the rear of his unit. That was his last order as he and his clanrats soon die to merciless warriors of Hoeth. Their comrades kill many slaves who keep fighting a little longer. White Lions strike hard but cannot land proper blows on Doom Wheel which grinds them down slowly.

High Elves Turn 6

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High Elves win but it is a very bloody victory

Swordmasters finish Slaves and Dragon Princes charge the last unit of pathetic skaven who flee and die this time. Elves put some last effort to destroy the bell but the construction is very hard and wounded rat ogre is the last remaining guardian of this infernal device. Battered but still not destroyed doom wheel kills the last brave Lions but it is clear that High Elves won the day, although the price was high too.

I hope you enjoyed the report! I will follow with comments and after-battle thoughts later. In the meantime have a Marry Christmas! :)

Thanks for reading!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 06 updated 24.12

#56 Post by Curu Olannon »

Wow, that was impressive! I think you are really getting the hang of this army, using it to its full potential! In this game you played wonderfully and I could not identify any mistakes on your part, while you really managed to capitalize on the mistakes from your opponent. In particular, I loved your deployment and cautious moves setting up for the later turn wraparound. Great play and a well deserved victory ;)
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

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Gwydion
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Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:36 pm
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 06 updated 24.12

#57 Post by Gwydion »

Hi Swordmaster,

thanks for the wonderful report. It was quite a sight to see HE win over skaven. Maybe a lot of small and diverse units are key to defeat skaven as their spells and deadly warmachines are best against huge blocks. As for the general conception of your army consider me impressed (I also read the very good battle reports by SmithF). I think I´ll try a similar concept in the near future although shadow magic will be my first choice.
dabber
Tactician
Posts: 3037
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 06 updated 24.12

#58 Post by dabber »

I really thought that was a classic matchup that would mess up your army. Yet it worked. I continue to be impressed.
Brewmaster_D
Posts: 579
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Location: Kitchener, Ontario

Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 06 updated 24.12

#59 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Hey Swordmaster,

Well done my friend! Skaven are one of the toughest matchups for us, and you cut through his army like a hot knife through butter. Let's start with the praise:

- We should take a picture of the High Elf turn 3 and just post it as a reply to every "How do I deal with a hellpit?" thread that pops up. Brilliant!
- Likewise the High Elf turn 5 photo should be posted as a reply to the debate that's raging in the tactics forum about how to deal with the Screaming bell. That combo charge was set up and executed like a pro.
- You *drastically* out-deployed your opponent in this game. Given, you've got a ton more drops than him, but regardless, you identified the weak flank and capitalized in a very serious way.

All in all Swordmaster, I can't find much fault in your playing at all. Give yourself a well deserved pat on the back. This list is really coming in to its own, and is almost tempting me to run more numerous smaller units myself :P

Your opponent did a few things to limit his chance of victory which you exploited very well. His first problem is in the list writing end of things. His list lacks cohesion, and this effected his game very seriously. For example, Gutter Runners and Warp Lightning cannons have no place in a list with the storm banner. This game really drives the point home; in turn 2 he had a great opportunity to fire a great volley at your reavers with his gutter runners, but being at -2 to hit from his own banner meant that his shots were relatively ineffective. Likewise, his banner prevented a shot from the Warp Lightning Cannon in the East in a critical phase.

The Screaming Bell is also a sub optimal choice - you played it just right here. Ignore the thing until the very end when you can get a combo charge on the unit. Did it manage to do anything meaningful all game? I don't recall seeing any of the bell results in here.

Finally, Stormvermin are another sub-optimal choice in my opinion unless you're fielding Queek. 1 attack at S4 just isn't very threatening, and they move away from what makes the skaven army so strong - cheap, plentiful units. Again, you saw this and happily took his points from him. Well done!

The second area that you were able to capitalize on were his deployment mistakes. First, there's no reason to infiltrate gutter runners, especially versus a list like yours. Had he just deployed his runners behind the building, he'd have eliminated that unit of Reavers before they were a threat. Second, given that you have significantly more drops than him, and the refused flank strategy is pretty much assumed when your opponent is High Elves, I'm suprised he weighted one flank the way he did. I'd have had my Cannons in behind big blocks of Slaves/Clanrats, not vulnerable and in the open like they were.

It was also weird that he just sort of plodded forward on the first turn. He was just sort of asking for you to surround him. The wise thing to do would have been to move everything full tilt westward, to try to limit your ability to combine forces on a single point. This mistake allowed you to take apart his units one at a time, moving Eastward through his ranks.

Once again Swordmaster, well done in this tough matchup. You can't control your opponent's actions, so in terms of your own playing, you get two thumbs up from me.

D
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35454]Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35478]The Art of Deployment[/url]
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Re: Tournament Preparation - Battle 06 updated 24.12

#60 Post by Brewmaster_D »

Oh right, couple things I forgot:

With fast cavalry, you have to actually deploy them as normal, then once everything is deployed and scouts are down, you get a free 12" move. This means the Dragon Princes in the West couldn't have been up at the line, since there would have had to be room for the Reavers to be there during deployment. Just a small rules thing. It also means that his scouts could have posted up in that house in the West, since the Reavers are technically back at the line until every unit is dropped.

Also, no Dreaded 13th??? What madness is this???

:P

Once again, well played!

D
[i]There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests. [/i]

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: [url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35454]Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35478]The Art of Deployment[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35380]Writing Army Lists[/url]
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