CanCon 2012 - Summary updated 17.02

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Greetings!

As I am going to take part in CanCon 2012 in January I decided to start some practice. Here is my first battle report and if you would like to discuss the army list itself have a look at this topic: The road to CanCon 2012

The tournament is going to be without any restrictions and that means special characters are also allowed. I am not going to use any and I have a feeling my army list is even softer in that environment but this what I have. There are also scenarios assigned to each of 8 battles so I asked my opponent to follow that route as well. First battle is Dawn Attack and I faced O&G army, the one which is also an experiment for my opponent and definitely not a typical greenskins horde as you will see below.

Army lists and pre-battle considerations

Orcs & Goblins
Black Orc Warboss
Orc BSB
Orc Boss on Boar
Orc Boss on Boar
Orc Level 2 Shaman
Night Goblin Shaman

40 Night Goblins, 2 Fanatics, Netters
20 Night Goblins, 2 Fanatics
20 Night Goblins, 2 Fanatics

5 Wolf Riders, Bows
5 Wolf Riders, Bows

3 Wolf Chariots
2 Wolf Chariots
7 Trolls
9 Boar Boyz

Mangler Squig
Mangler Squig

Doom Diver
Doom Diver
Rock Lobber

High Elves
Archmage, Level 4, Light Magic, Folariath's Robes, Ring of Fury, Dragon Gem
Mage, Level 2, Light Magic, Annulian Crystal
BSB, GW, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix
Noble, GW, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Helm of Fortune, Amulet of Light

30 Spearelves, FC, Standard of Discipline
12 Archers, Light Armor, Musician
12 Archers, Light Armor, Musician

13 Swordmasters, Standard, Musician, Banner of Sorcery
9 Silver Helms, FC
6 Dragon Princes, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spears, Bows

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

This is the first time I am not using Prince and I was curious if I am going to miss him. Silver Helms with a Noble should be still good enough as a hammer and saved point gave me a chance to buy more troops. I went for Reavers as I still want to make them work and there would be some machine hunting to do. It also gave me an opportunity to give Ring of Fure to the Archmage as I think that this item helps to create enough pressure on the enemy as to let me important spells through.

After my previous encounters with O&G I made Mangler Squigs elimination my priority. I was confident I can kill one quickly enough but I also didn't want to risk that the second one would quickly be among my lines. So the plan was to shoot/magic to death one and sacrifice one eagle to kill the other one. That is also why I wanted to have Reavers, as second eagle alone would not be fast enough to kill all machines quickly.

I haven't played any scenarios so far and I was very curious how is it going to affect the battle. It all depended on rolls for particular units but I hoped it would not mess up my deployment too much.

Deployment


Both armies ready for battle, just before vanguard moves

High Elves were to choose the side and deployed first. One eagle was forced to deploy on the left flank. Silver Helms, Reavers and one Archer regiment deployed on the right flank, while the rest of the army occupied center but with close proximity to the right flank units. The Archmage got Burning Gaze, Pha's Protection, Speed of Light and Timewarp. Level 2 got Burning Gaze and Light of Battle. The Archmage was with Swordmasters, Level 2 and BSB joined Spearelves, while Noble led Silver Helms.

Only Rocklobber and 2 small goblin units had to deploy on the far flank, with majority of units being able to pick their spot, so the Greenskins deployment was even less affected by scenario. Orc Shaman had Gaze of Mork and Foot of Gork, while Night Goblin Shaman got poisonuos attacks spell. They went to small night goblin units. Warboss and BSB joined Night Goblins horde, one Boss joined Boar Boyz while the other one was to lead Trolls to battle.

Orcs and Goblins failed to steal an initiative and High Elves had a first turn.

High Elves Turn 1


After light cavalry vanguard moves, High Elves slightly re-arrange their formation

One eagle and Ellyrian Reavers take positions for next turn charges on enemy artillery. The rest of the army moves forward just a little and with the use of magic and missile troops High Elves put down one of the Mangler Squigs. Unfortunately HE Archmage loses concentration and fails to cast Pha's Protection on his troops.

Orcs & Goblins Turn 1


Orcs and Goblins try early charge

Orcs&Goblins move aggresively, especially on the left flank. Wolf chariots attempt a long charge on Dragon Princes but fail to reach their target. Wolf Riders on the right flank move to protect the war machines. Shamans cannot breach elven magical barriers but what they could not achieve ith spells they made up by with shooting. Although one Doom Diver and Rock Lobber missed their targets the last one hit perfectly and his impact was so strong than no less than 6 Silver Helms perished, their armor counted for nothing against crazy goblin.

High Elves Turn 2


Elves decide to charge early too

On the left flank Great Eagle charges Rock Lobber avoiding fanatics on the way. On the other flank Ellyrian Reavers charge Wolf riders blocking their way. Noble decided to charge Wolf Chariots alone but Goblins fled as they didn't want to risk being chopped down. Dragon Princes had to make a quick decision what to charge as another chance would not be given and since breaking through trolls would open the way to the artillery behind them (and as they carried the banner which gave them flaming attacks) they risked going against that foe. Unfortunately two of the pround knights died in treacherous ruins among which trolls were hiding. The rest of the army moved forward a little and elven wizards did what they could to help the troops to fight better. Although magic missiles were dispelled that helped to cast Timewarp on Dragon Princes and increase the number of their attacks further. Together with their steeds, 4 knights inflicted no less than 11 wounds. However, 4 remaining trolles puked to death 3 of the Dragon princes and only standard bearer remained. Trolls passed their break test as despite the horrendous damage they were still steadfast. In the meantime Ellyrian Reavers destroyed Wolf Riders and in pursuit of single survivor they cought also fleeing Chariots. However, that brought them close enough to Night Goblins who released 2 fanatics and elven light cavalry was no more. On the far left flank Great Eagle could not kill any goblin and even received a wound in return. Second Eagle sacrificed itself to destroy remaining mangler squig and thanks to that opened a free road for 3 Silver Helms to move to the flank of enemy formation. It seemed like some elven cavalry were still able to break through towards the enemy artillery.

Orcs & Goblins Turn 2


Orcs&Goblins try to counter-charge

Boar Boyz charge a flank of Archers on the hill (they falied their swift reform previous turn in order to be able to shoot at nearby Wolf riders) while Wolf Chariots tried to charge Swordmasters who performed tactical retreat. Archers fought bravely and even killed one Boar Boy but broke and fled from the battle. Boar Boyz restrained from pursuit and reformed. Again Orc Shaman and Goblin Shaman did no damage to elves. And again their Doom diver hit perfectly and this time there were no survivors among Silver Helms. In combat Dragon Prince standard bearer managed to kill another troll but died horribly shortly after. Great Eagle finally kills some goblins, gets another wound but breaks the crew and flies out of sight of the nearby goblins.

High Elves Turn 3


With cavalry gone it is starts to look very difficult for High Elves

Spearelves charge BoarBoyz but seeng that they flee they redirect towards Wolf Chariots. However, they also flee and Spearelves move forward just a little. Seeing that the road to artillery is blocked by fanatics Elven Noble joins Swordmasters, who have just rallied. Elven wizards focus their attention on Trolls and thanks to Burning Gaze they manage to kill two more so that only one troll and his boss remain. Wounded eagle tries to reach another war machine but it is still too far away to attempt a charge.

Orcs & Goblins Turn 3


Gork enters the battle!

There are no charges this time, while fleeing troops rally. Goblins chase the wounded Eagle and manage to kill it with their crude bows. Orc Boss decides it is a good time to leave his pet troll on its own and moves away from it. Orc Shaman, annoyed that his spells do not work summons so much energy that even elven Archmage cannot stop it and brings the wrath of his god Gork. Gork stomps twice on Spearelves, killing 15 and then slips on his own unit. Unfortunate Night Goblins lose enough to panick and flee towards their own lines, carrying Night Goblin Shaman with them.


High Elves Turn 4


Charge or be charged

Spearelves are now in a very difficult situation. They lost a lot of their numbers and now are threated by charges of enemy troops form many directions. The only way out is to strike first and Spearelves charge Wolf Chariots which this time decide to stand and shoot. Unfortunately, Spearelves do not raech their target and are in a very big trouble (I needed a 6 on two dice but had to roll 5, obviously ). As the winds of magic were also weak this time elven wizards could not protect their troops properly and could not inflict enough damage on the enemy to prevent them from attack. They just avenged fallen Spearelves and killed orc Shaman. It seems like the battle reached its turning point.

Orcs & Goblins Turn 4


Devastating Orcs and Goblins attack

Boar Boyz and Wolf Chariot have no problems in reaching Spearelves in their devastating charge. Impact hits do the job and no Spears are left to hit back. Only BSB managed to destroy one Chariot but it is not enough and he is killed too. Both units reform. In the meantime Wolf Riders block Swordmasters from joing the battle too quickly. Doom divers aim at Swordmasters but only one hits (the other misfires and is inactive for 2 turns) and only single warrior of Hoeth is killed. In any case the situation looks very grim for High Elves now.

High Elves Turn 5


The remnants of High Elf army keep fighting

HE Noble charges single troll and kills it outright while Swordmasters shift backwards. Archmage leaves the unit and moves out of sight of Boar Boyz and tries to summon enough energy for devastating magic phase but despite that he could only inflict a single wound on lone Orc Boss and destroy one chariot with a help of Archers.

Orcs & Goblins Turn 5


Mopping up?

Night Goblins with Warboss charge Eleven Noble who tactically retreats. Boar Boyz and lone Boss charge Archers who stand and shoot, kill one Boar Boy and two more in combat. However, they cannot deliver another wound to the Boss and are destroyed shortly after.

High Elves Turn 6


Death or Glory! Swordmasters attack!

It seemed like Orc Warboss relaxed and his troops started just to wonder around when High Elves decided on last gamble. Swordmasters charged Wolf Riders who were so surprised they didn't flee far enough and pursuing Elves hit Night Goblins behind them. Elven Noble rallied and the Archmage rushed forward to help Swordmasters as much as he could. They were now Protected and Timewarped. But there was not enough energy left to blast the chariot or Orc Boss. Despite nets thrown on them Swordmasters killed 12 goblins for the loss ot 3 of their numbers. There were still enough of the enemy though to remain steadfast.

Orcs & Goblins Turn 6


Last charge of the battle

Goblin charioteers felt brave and attacked Elven Noble. His armor saved him but only just as he still received one wound. He managed to inflict only one in return and ... broke from combat but fortunately was not cought. Swordmasters could not get rid of the nets but again killed 12 goblins and this time the enemy was not steadfast anymore. Black Orc did his best to keep few goblins in line but even with the help of his BSB he could not maintain discipline and little critters run away quickly. In fact, so quickly that Swordmasters could not catch them and the only trophy they got was the enemy battle standard. With that last act the battle was over and High Elves were defeated.

After-battle thoughts

First of all congratulations to my opponent! He brought different army than the one you might have expected and won despite clear disadvantage in magic (by more than 700 points that would give him 14-6 victory). His army does not look intimidating and although I didn't underestimate it I was not scared to face it. But it sitll won and could have won by even greater margin if he didn't relax too early. For example, he could have reformed Boar boyz instead of pursuing archers and be able to help goblins. Or stay with wolf riders and have one less combat against Swordmasters. What is more, his charge against Noble was risky, I would shot at him with doom diver instead. I was lucky to save so many impact hits but also was he when I failed to wound him with 3 S6 attacks. I think he played well, waited for opportunities to charge, fled when the match up was not good for him and seemed to control his army much better. He had some luck that helped him (like rolling 6 for number of hits for doom diver two times in a row which destroyed my Heavy Cavalry) but at worse case scenario it would have been a draw (if I cought that Warboss and his unit and killed his chariot). His army is an interesting choice but I think it would be better with Orcs instead of big night goblin unit (for better staying power and better output damage). And I guess it would not harm to have at least one more shaman.

As to my own performance I am of course not happy at all I think I rushed with that Dragon Prince charge and probably also deplyed them too much forward. If I were lucky, though, and didn't lose my knights to dangerous terrain test I would have 6 more S5 attacks which means I had a chance to kill enough to break steadfast. And I really wanted to get to that artillery quickly as it was very dangerous and even with limited ability to shoot it still destroyed my Silver Helms. Would I do better with a Prince? I still don't know. I could have that Ward Save cast on cavalry (my plan was to use a prince with Radiant Gem of Hoeth and pick Shield of saphery from High Magic) but would I roll enough 5+ to save the unit? My light cavalry died but at least they killed chariots and wolf riders, something I could not achieve without them. However, my opponent says two more eagles would be even better. I also think I should have charged Wolf Riders with Swordmasters earlier. I was intimidated by Black Orc warboss and wanted to have more attacks as well as Protection cast at them to limit the number of hits back (goblins hit on 6+ then).

As always any comments are greatly appreciated!

Thanks for reading!

[Curu Olannon]

Thanks for a wonderful report, condolences on your loss...

To me, this game seemed to highlight the main weakness of your list: you don't have anything acting as a combat block. All your units are small, msu-styled. As such, you're poorly equipped to handle bigger blocks and tough enemies. In this battle your units all fought one at a time and got overwhelmed.

Let's take a look at your army:

Archmage, Level 4, Light Magic, Folariath's Robes, Ring of Fury, Dragon Gem
Mage, Level 2, Light Magic, Annulian Crystal
BSB, GW, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix
Noble, GW, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Helm of Fortune, Amulet of Light

I do believe the mages are fairly well set up, though your Archmage is illegal: both robes and ring are enchanted items. I don't see why you don't have an arcane item on him! There are so many good ones to pick for us: Staff of Solidity, Dispel Scroll, Asuryan Scroll, Jewel of the Dusk, Ring of Corin, Trickster's Shard. I would really consider one of these!

As for fighty characters, it is my experience that Dawnstone is better than GP. A small matter. The other noble however I do not believe fits in well here. The problem is that your helm unit cannot act as a combat block without a prince (it simply isn't strong enough) and as such it ends up as a very expensive supporting unit. If you want a cavalry supporting unit, I suggest ~7 DP + a fighty noble. They hit harder, have a smaller footprint and are better.

30 Spearelves, FC, Standard of Discipline
12 Archers, Light Armor, Musician
12 Archers, Light Armor, Musician

I know your thoughts about Light Armor so I won't comment on that. Standard core, looks fine. I guess you could consider all-Spearmen.

13 Swordmasters, Standard, Musician, Banner of Sorcery
9 Silver Helms, FC
6 Dragon Princes, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spears, Bows

Swordmasters are too small. If you want to go with them, make them into a proper combat block so they can fight on their own. With the Sorcery banner they are just bound to take so much heat.

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

I would suggest something like this overall: Add Corin to your Archmage, drop either Ring or Robe. Keep the characters as is but put the Noble with the DP. Said DPs get +1 member and a musician. That gives them flexibility and lets them act as a proper supporting unit. Drop the Helm unit and beef the Swordmasters to 21 strong, including a Bladelord. This lets them act as a proper combat block, giving you them + the Spears. You might consider getting another supporting unit but this would require you to drop the reavers. Honestly I think you'll be able to get along well with Spears + Swords + DP, given your army focus.

EDIT: an option is to drop the Helms for a unit of Lions to act as a combat block. Let these guys carry the Sorcery banner and reduce the swordmasters to act as a support unit (e.g. 10 strong)

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Ye gads, I saw the deployment pic and you were out numbered by so much, I know, I know, High Elves are expensive so we're always outnumbered, but the number of characters didn't help with the number of boots on the ground. Maybe try and fit another GE in so you can give yourself more time.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Thanks for a wonderful report, condolences on your loss...

I hope it is still fun to read as I was pretty down after the battle. I guess you know how it feels to lose a few battles in the row.

To me, this game seemed to highlight the main weakness of your list: you don't have anything acting as a combat block. All your units are small, msu-styled. As such, you're poorly equipped to handle bigger blocks and tough enemies. In this battle your units all fought one at a time and got overwhelmed.

So maybe it is not the problem of the list, really, but me being impatient and reckless? I will discuss your suggestions as to the army list but I must admit that in topics about the battles, especially the ones I lost, I am also looking for some feedback on the way things could have been done better with the same list.

I do believe the mages are fairly well set up, though your Archmage is illegal: both robes and ring are enchanted items.

Damn! How did I do that? Thanks for pointing that out, I am really embarassed I did it.

I don't see why you don't have an arcane item on him! There are so many good ones to pick for us: Staff of Solidity, Dispel Scroll, Asuryan Scroll, Jewel of the Dusk, Ring of Corin, Trickster's Shard. I would really consider one of these!

I think I will do an exchange of items between wizards so that I still have Ring of Fury. I have found out that I need these magic missiles, especially with not much shooting, to get rid of little critters like Manglers. It also forces the enemy to dispel them rather than other spells, which aid my troops. In that game it was only due to poor rolling and sometimes taking a risk to cast a spell with not optimal number of dice that prevented me to cast all the spells I wanted to. However, if I were to get back to the Prince, I would have to make some tough decisions and then probably will add cheaper arcane too.

As for fighty characters, it is my experience that Dawnstone is better than GP. A small matter. The other noble however I do not believe fits in well here. The problem is that your helm unit cannot act as a combat block without a prince (it simply isn't strong enough) and as such it ends up as a very expensive supporting unit. If you want a cavalry supporting unit, I suggest ~7 DP + a fighty noble. They hit harder, have a smaller footprint and are better.

I am still undecided on Dawnstone vs. GP so just wanted to try it out differently. I also have to consider I might face some killing blow troops/characters in the tournament. I have attended only one in 8th edition so far and my experience is limited. Hence, I took the advice of Ptolemy and Tethlis.

I wanted to see if SH + Noble would work. I couldn't as they died before combat. It would not matter in that particular case if I had DP instead. The way I see it, Silver Helms (and Spears) can still be decent combat units with at least Noble among their ranks. Having a noble simply helps both units to grind the enemy they could not as their S3 is not good enough to inflict significant damage. While Spears have numbers and ranks to add to the equation, SH have armor. I agree that with the Prince they are better but it is more due to his ability to have them warded (although all the little bonuses he adds also help).

I considered second DP unit instead but I am afraid I might not be able to prepare so many models and I am still determined to try out SH as they are. As they might not be enough to do enough damage as Seredain's unit (due to both characters among them) I guess I need to play in the way that they do not attack things alone unless it is beneficial in some form.

I know your thoughts about Light Armor so I won't comment on that. Standard core, looks fine. I guess you could consider all-Spearmen.

I did but I think that HE need even a limited amount of shooting. I am at the moment more thinking about combining both archer units into one with standard for a smaller ranked unit.

Swordmasters are too small. If you want to go with them, make them into a proper combat block so they can fight on their own. With the Sorcery banner they are just bound to take so much heat.

Yes, Swordmasters take some attention but I have also noticed two things. First, Silver Helms are usuall first target anyway. Second, 3 ranks of Swordmasters are dying to a tempalte as quickly as 2 ranks. Damn template weapons just cover more of them. So if I were t include more of them it would be better to have second unit rather than bigger one. And I can do that provided Noble leads SH, as with a Prince I simply have not enough points to buy more than ~18 of them in total.

EDIT: an option is to drop the Helms for a unit of Lions to act as a combat block. Let these guys carry the Sorcery banner and reduce the swordmasters to act as a support unit (e.g. 10 strong)

That is an option but there are two reasons against it, it would take me away from cavalry and I would like to keep them, second I didn't bring my whole collection of miniatures and I am quite limited in things I can possibly include. Hence, as with PG, I cannot use WL at the moment.

Ye gads, I saw the deployment pic and you were out numbered by so much, I know, I know, High Elves are expensive so we're always outnumbered, but the number of characters didn't help with the number of boots on the ground. Maybe try and fit another GE in so you can give yourself more time.

Well, that's greenskins for you And that was not the most numerous and dangerous army they can field either as they had quite expensive Boar Boyz and Trolls as well as quite a few characters and not that much artillery (which still hurt). My opponent also told me to replace Reavers with eagles, despite the fact he finds them extremly annoying In that particular battle 2 more eagles would probably be better to shut down his artillery quicker. My opponent didn't rush towards my lines, so I had enough time to prepare better charges. That is why I think I could do better in deployment and not be so eager to attack. But that is the effect of his artillery I guess. If something shoots at you it is very difficult to keep your head cool, especially that you know you are much better in combat.

Thanks for comments! I hope some more will be added I might have another game by the end of this week. Don't know which army I am going to fight against yet but I might face Skaven. Not only the bane of many other forces but main army of my opponent

[akielzather]

On the SH Bus with a Noble instead of the SH Bus with Prince(and/or mounted BSB)

I run that set up in my 2400 list. And it works when used correctly. Flanking, hunting support units etc. Staright up fight against something that hit hards, avoid. Unless .....you are using life. SH bus works so well with Life its just not funny. T5 or T7 makes the bus a fantastic conbat unit.

My area plays 2400 for there tournement so we have to shave a few more points off , but i have been using the SH bus in one shape or another since Dec 2010.Only just got back into this aug 2010. And it is one of my favorite units. It does need a charater for a bit of punch but think the unit is great for what it does.
It has more wounds than the equivilant DP. Has a rank for distuption, Cheaper standard for blood and glory. Either ignored or attraction all the attention.

P.s - Also run 5-6 DP with a musicians along side these so do see the use for both in the same list.

For Sword Masters list - Think you have sunk a little too much in magic items/charters.

I would stripe the robes, swap crystal for Scroll(although think the crystal is better) and drop the lvl 2 to lvl 1.
Would also drop the ring of fury.
With the points saved you can then beef up you units or if drop the reavers(you already have the speed in the list that you do not need these) can get a second combat unit.

Good luck though and would play your list a couple more times to see how it works and to identify what you think you need to amend.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi akielzather!

Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I think that no matter if I am going to have a Prince or a Noble in SH unit (although I think there might be times when joining DP would be beneficial) the main problem is that I started to use this unit (and other regiments in the army for that matter) separately. I guess this is the reason why I lost 3 games in a row. The army is designed to work in teams. Instead of that I charged my cavalry alone with infantry too far away to even join the fight next round.

I will consider the suggestions as to the army list but here I would like to talk about the ways I could play better with the army I had. Constant changing of the army list has not served me well so far as I spent a lot of time tweaking it and not enough thinking how I want to use the tools I have.

As Tiralya mentioned I was vastly outnumbered. But when you look at the deployment you will notice that his army was spread along the entire width of the battle field while mine was deployed on the right flank. Opposite my SH and ER were relatively weak light goblin troops I could defeat one versus one, even taking the charge of chariots and grinding them down. Manglers were dealt on that flank with shooting and eagle sacrifice. Could I deploy better? With SH, one Archer unit and ER forced to deploy on my right flank and one Eagle on the left flank I don't think I made any significant mistake at that stage. I was actually happy with the set up. But I would appreciate any ideas on how to imporve it. Bear in mind I had to deploy my army first, not knowing how the enemy is going to counter my army. The only thing I knew was that two Night Goblin units and Rock Lobber are to be placed on far left.

Because of my deployment my enemy had to wheel to get to my troops. And here is where I could have done way better. After vanguard I should have moved SH to the right of woods. This would threaten his chariots and light cavalry at the same time and he would not be able to make straightforward decision to block reavers as SH would be close by. Swordmasters and Spears would follow but facing the middle of the battlefield, ready to engage any foe and giving wizards opened field to blast the enemy with missiles while being close enough all the units to offer protection. I think that if I also kept DP in my deployment zone I would create a difficult dilemma to my opponent. I would be flanking his force so to counter that he has to wheel but by doing so he would expose flanks of his units for DP charge, something he would not like with any unit of his. By commiting DP too early and positioning them so I put myself in the situation "to charge or be charged" I lost that opportunity and my opponent's BoarBoyz and Wolf Riders could freely race across the field, destroy my archers and be ready for further attacks.

These are my conclusions after this and previous lost battles. If you have any further comments on the battle itself or on my recent reasoning, feel free to post them! I do need to discuss tactical issues even more than the army list

Cheers!

[aj8900]

First of all thx for alle the Battel reports they are so fun to read
but it's about time we get u list sorted out.

This is my 2400p list it is very good - try it and see if it works for you.

The "Tactic" is very simple Shoot or stall the best and clean up the rest.

The Archmage should pick lores like fire, metal or heavens. don't try anything fancy you want "firepower" not support spells. The level 1 have high magic so you get +1 to dispel and always have drain magic and shiels of saphri. (really nice spells)
The Archmage should be in the archers with the banner.
The prince is there to tank you opponents best unit (unless they have Killing Blow) You charge them ASAP! he is stubborn and so hard to kill that he can stop them all game.
BSB is there to shoot and give re-rolls try to keep him out of HtH.

Spears to take light opponents, Lions to take hard opponents. Dragon princes are only
there to give lookout sire to the prince before he get in HtH after that they can hunt warmachines or support charge (if any left)
I like to have a chariot - it is good to keep light opponents away from you Bolt trowers and archers but if you wan't more princes or lions you can take it out.
You can also take out one of the bolt trowers but i don't think you should.

Best of Luck to you m8.

2400p

Archmage @ 305p
(level 4) with Staff of solidity and guardian phoenix.

Prince @ 284p
With Crown of command, Wambraces of defence, enchanted shield, lance,
dragon armour, and a barded elven steed.

Mage (High Magic) @ 140p
level 1 Sigil of asuryan

BSB @ 165p
with Reaver bow, ironcurce icon, dragon armour, great weapon.

30 x Spears @ 295p
with full command

10 x Archers @ 110p

15 x Archers @ 200p *archmage and BSB.
with a standard bearer and banner of arcane protection

20 x White Lions @ 362p
with a standard bearer and banner of sorcery.

5 x Dragon Princes @150 *prince.

Tiranoc Chariot @85

2 x Great eagels @ 100p
2 x Bolt trowers @200p

[aj8900]

Let us say you have my proposed list in this game.

You should deploy the lions in front of the hill and the archers with mage and BSB on top - the lions counter his Boar boyz (it would be really foolish of him to charge them) but the 3 chariot unit are dangerous because of there impact hits so they will have to be shoot (or you will have to use the prince to stop them) (the manglers are serious dangerous but they do take 2 turns to get over the table and are hard to hit on Long range so you can wait untill next trn with them.) The spears are up against the trolls and the princes with prince hide behind the right most wood (so the doom divers will scatter) you chose fire magic (because of the trolls and many T4 low save targets) and get lets say fire cloak, flaming sword, buning head and flamecage. (and you change fire cloak to fireball)


first turn
Magic - lets say you roll 7 dices (3 and 4) banner give you 2 so you have 9 - first you take 4 dices and cast flamimng cage on his trolls and after that 4 dice fireball on his chariots. With the last dice u cast shield on you Princes.
depending on how you magic whent (lets say you got 4 wounds on the chariots.) all archers fire on the chariots - that is about 3 wounds more - now the chariots are not that dangerous any more and you have both bolts and reaver bow to shoot the Mangles.

[~Milliardo~]

Your list is nothing like his though mate.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi aj8900!

Thanks for your comments and suggestions! I am also glad you like the report despite my poo performance

This is my 2400p list it is very good - try it and see if it works for you.

Let's have a look then

The "Tactic" is very simple Shoot or stall the best and clean up the rest.

I am sure this approach works for many HE generals. I am, however, reckless cavalry commander to the point where I think I might play Brets instead But I am always interested in suggestions, I might not follow them to the letter but there is a chance I will find them useful in different environment too.

The Archmage should pick lores like fire, metal or heavens. don't try anything fancy you want "firepower" not support spells. The level 1 have high magic so you get +1 to dispel and always have drain magic and shiels of saphri. (really nice spells)

Well, HE wizards get +1 to dispel regardless of the lore they choose. I am going to use a mage-prince, though, for Shield of Saphery and Drain Magic.

The Archmage should be in the archers with the banner. The prince is there to tank you opponents best unit (unless they have Killing Blow) You charge them ASAP! he is stubborn and so hard to kill that he can stop them all game.
BSB is there to shoot and give re-rolls try to keep him out of HtH.

I need my Archmage close. This is because he is immune to mundane attacks and can actually limit the number of wounds my units take and sometimes even block a powerful opponent (check my game against Ogres, I lost but I really like the fact I managed to pull it out. The idea of stubborn Prince is a good one and I might use it but at the moment I want to give a mage-knight a go and see if I can use him properly.

Spears to take light opponents, Lions to take hard opponents. Dragon princes are only
there to give lookout sire to the prince before he get in HtH after that they can hunt warmachines or support charge (if any left)
I like to have a chariot - it is good to keep light opponents away from you Bolt trowers and archers but if you wan't more princes or lions you can take it out. You can also take out one of the bolt trowers but i don't think you should.

Well, unfortunately I am very limited in my troops choice at the moment. No WL, Chariots or RBT's for me. I can add LSG, Swordmasters, Reavers and Heavy Cavalry though. So if you think I can use these in a better way, please let me know in a topic about my army list. Here I would love to talk more about my battles and how could I played better with forces I fielded in particular game. Otherwise I am stuck with army list only and do not discuss real game situations. These are two different topics.

Best of Luck to you m8.

I will need it as always if not more in my next battle

Let us say you have my proposed list in this game.

You should deploy the lions in front of the hill and the archers with mage and BSB on top - the lions counter his Boar boyz (it would be really foolish of him to charge them) but the 3 chariot unit are dangerous because of there impact hits so they will have to be shoot (or you will have to use the prince to stop them) (the manglers are serious dangerous but they do take 2 turns to get over the table and are hard to hit on Long range so you can wait untill next trn with them.) The spears are up against the trolls and the princes with prince hide behind the right most wood (so the doom divers will scatter) you chose fire magic (because of the trolls and many T4 low save targets) and get lets say fire cloak, flaming sword, buning head and flamecage. (and you change fire cloak to fireball)

That would indeed be a good approach, provided I use your army Just remember that Doom Divers are actually very accurate with their special rule that allows them to get back to the target. What is more, I have found out that indirect fire is not that indirect. Yes, you cannot score a hit but then other rolls are nicely reduced by your BS. In that case Doom diver can correct its aim even better. In my game I tried to make it more difficult for the opponent to hit me by casting Pha's Protection but I was unlucky to roll low even on 3 dice. The spell goes off on 12+, so with an Archmage I needed an 8. As you can see this is not hard to achieve on 3 dice but unfortunately I could not make it this time while my opponent got two nice rolls of a 6 in two rounds in a row and killed my Silver Helms. He was, however, unlucky with Swordmastes as every time he hit he got 1 or 2 hits.

first turn
Magic - lets say you roll 7 dices (3 and 4) banner give you 2 so you have 9 - first you take 4 dices and cast flamimng cage on his trolls and after that 4 dice fireball on his chariots. With the last dice u cast shield on you Princes.
depending on how you magic whent (lets say you got 4 wounds on the chariots.) all archers fire on the chariots - that is about 3 wounds more - now the chariots are not that dangerous any more and you have both bolts and reaver bow to shoot the Mangles.

That would be a nice magic phase indeed. In the first phase I tried to kill Manglers as I see them as more important target. If I had your army I might have done what you suggest. Just remember that Flaming Cage is not that good against high S units so my opponent might have just let it go. Then he also had a dispel scroll so his chariots would be safe for now. At least from magic.

In my battle with the army I had I would do exactly the same I did with magic and shooting. If I were more lucky I would kill one mangler with magic and then could attempt to shoot down the other one. I had a back-up plan to land an eagle if it didn't work as you saw. I think my opponent was happy I was shooting at them as that kept me from harming his fragile chariots, which would be my next target.

Thanks again for your feedback but I would appreciate some ideas on how to use the army I have. Maybe it is not the most efficient one but I still have faith in it. I might consider some changes to it provided they do not require changing my approach.

Cheers!

[aj8900]

reckless cavalry commander to the point where I think I might play Brets instead

Do you have a Dragon model ? (if not you know what to wish for Christmas

The Star dragon with dragon princes and lion chariot support works - The dragon prince death star don't work very well

I'll make a list for you when i come home.

[Brewmaster_D]

Hey Swordmaster!

Tough break in this game. Unfortunately Orcs and Goblins have a lot of hard counters for heavily armoured troops like knights. This is always going to be a very difficult matchup for lists like yours.

A few thoughts on your list, and the game in general:

1. I'm inclined to agree with Curu here - I think the Noble/Helm combo just doesn't pack enough punch to provide a decent amount of threat to your opponent. Have you considered dropping the noble and simply switching to a 10 strong unit of Dragon Princes instead? You could even tool out the champion with a Potion of Strength for some real serious hitting power in one round, or even give them the banner of ellyrion to lessen the impact terrain has on your mobility. This would be my strongest suggestion at this point. I think you'd even end up ahead in terms of points too, letting you beef up your other units.

2. I'd have thought about moving the silver helms around the eastern side of the forest. If you shoot the eastern mangler squig, it should limit his options of matching them up with your knights, and give you another turn to deal with them with your shooting/magic

3. Somewhere you mentioned you need the Ring of Fury for the extra magic missile. With two Lore of light Mages, I don't see how you could possibly be left wanting another magic missile. Typically the Ring of Fury is a good choice with a lore that doesn't already fulfill that lore, but with Light, just take the silver wand on your Archmage and you're guaranteed to get banishment. Then you can add your +4/+2 to cast and make the spells more difficult to dispel.

4. I would have maybe tried to keep the Reavers from overrunning after killing the wolves. At that stage of the game, I'd prioritize shutting down that artillery, as your numbers were already dwindling.

Thanks for the report! Losses are always a bitter pill to swallow, but they're also the best learning experiences as well - I find I take away much more from a loss than I do a victory typically.

D

[akielzather]

OK Breakdown on how to play your list against the opponent you had.

Deployment.

My Standard is one Eagle on both flanks - First two drops. Then Archers closure to the middle but still on either flank.

Then, Spears dead centre. The load up on the side where his slowest things are not. I list like this, needs the combined charge to win and break units so need to ignore large chunks of his army for a while, Reavers, were perfetly placed. I often put these guys down last to maxiumise thre effectiviness.

First turn.
Would have moved the SH up on the right side using the forest to block some line of sight. Would have moved eagle 1 as you did, and eagle two would have moved to shield SH. DP - Not sure, Do not like where they are and going closure to the trolls is just going to get them killed, as too many of them. Think i would have angle to the left slightly so had options of what to charge. Boar boys , chariots etc.

Turn two
Think i would have risked long charge againt chariotsin the hope if break through the centre and poss over run into NG3.
Magic, think i would be trying to get gaze through to pick wounds of the trolls, or pick out single chariot.

BY Turn 3 , not much left to do i;m afraid, maybe move back and try pick of a unit or support with magic and shooting, faster moving stuff and let him continue to walk towards you.

Then try break through one unit with a duel charge.

Barring that, not sure what else to say.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Thanks for more comments, guys!

Hey Swordmaster!

Tough break in this game. Unfortunately Orcs and Goblins have a lot of hard counters for heavily armoured troops like knights. This is always going to be a very difficult matchup for lists like yours.

Indeed. If you counter one then there is always another thing that might be dangerous and he of course had to cast 6's for number of hits against cavalry. I also agree that this list is unfortunately quite fragile, it can be just one thing that goes through my defences that kills a lot.

1. I'm inclined to agree with Curu here - I think the Noble/Helm combo just doesn't pack enough punch to provide a decent amount of threat to your opponent. Have you considered dropping the noble and simply switching to a 10 strong unit of Dragon Princes instead? You could even tool out the champion with a Potion of Strength for some real serious hitting power in one round, or even give them the banner of ellyrion to lessen the impact terrain has on your mobility. This would be my strongest suggestion at this point. I think you'd even end up ahead in terms of points too, letting you beef up your other units.

I was thinking about the unit as a bodyguard for the Prince but it always seemed to me like too expensive (with a Prince that is). It is still an idea to think about. The unit could be dangerous on its own although without a character they might have the same problem as always, if they don't break the enemy they are going to struggle unless supported. In that case such a unit would have to be assigned targets they can break on the charge.

2. I'd have thought about moving the silver helms around the eastern side of the forest. If you shoot the eastern mangler squig, it should limit his options of matching them up with your knights, and give you another turn to deal with them with your shooting/magic

Yes, I thhink that would have been better too. Unfortunately, woods do not provide cover from his artillery anyway.

3. Somewhere you mentioned you need the Ring of Fury for the extra magic missile. With two Lore of light Mages, I don't see how you could possibly be left wanting another magic missile. Typically the Ring of Fury is a good choice with a lore that doesn't already fulfill that lore, but with Light, just take the silver wand on your Archmage and you're guaranteed to get banishment. Then you can add your +4/+2 to cast and make the spells more difficult to dispel.

I found I need 2D6 magic missile more. Yes, I can always have at least 2 x Burning Gaze and I can risk casting it with single dice but then I would have to do it as a last spell for each mage, otherwise in the case when they lose concentration I am not left with unused power dice. It is also a very good item to draw dispel dice from the opponent. Nobody likes their unit to be shot at.

4. I would have maybe tried to keep the Reavers from overrunning after killing the wolves. At that stage of the game, I'd prioritize shutting down that artillery, as your numbers were already dwindling.

I didn't anticipate I could be too close to release fanatics. I thought that after killing wolves and destroying chariots I would still be in the position to charge one of the doom divers. It took me too far away though and despite killing some units I failed at their priority target, that is war machines hunting.

Thanks for the report! Losses are always a bitter pill to swallow, but they're also the best learning experiences as well - I find I take away much more from a loss than I do a victory typically.

D

So I keep telling myself. I just wish I didn't make so many mistakes

OK Breakdown on how to play your list against the opponent you had.

Deployment.

My Standard is one Eagle on both flanks - First two drops. Then Archers closure to the middle but still on either flank.

I would do the same but one Archer unit had to be deployed on the right flank due to the scenario. I rolled the result for them that they have to be there so I positioned them as close to the centre as I could.

Then, Spears dead centre. The load up on the side where his slowest things are not. I list like this, needs the combined charge to win and break units so need to ignore large chunks of his army for a while, Reavers, were perfetly placed. I often put these guys down last to maxiumise thre effectiviness.

Yes, I agree on that. Luckily my opponent, despite deploying second and having a lot of units to choose where exactly he could place them, left that opening for Reavers to exploit.

First turn.
Would have moved the SH up on the right side using the forest to block some line of sight. Would have moved eagle 1 as you did, and eagle two would have moved to shield SH. DP - Not sure, Do not like where they are and going closure to the trolls is just going to get them killed, as too many of them. Think i would have angle to the left slightly so had options of what to charge. Boar boys , chariots etc.

I agree on SH. With DP it was a gamble and it didn't work due to 2 things. First, I failed two dangerous terrain tests and lost 6 attacks from knights and 4 from steeds, each flaming. Second, as a consequence of the first thing, I could not kiil enough to break steadfast. It was a huge gamble but with so many attacks and him not having regeneration I was not that far from making it happen. With only 4 knights I inflicted 11 wounds. With 10 more attacks I needed 5 more wounds to break them. If I inflicted only 2 more another troll would be dead. With 3 left, even if I lost 3 knights due to puke attack (I lost 4 of course) I still had a lot of attacks next turn to break through. Even single knight would be good enough to hunt down the artillery and deny the points for the unit. Unfortunately, it didn't happen this way.

I think I would do better with DP positioned as a reserve and a little back at the center of the deployment where they could threaten boar boyz, chariots and trolls while not being in their charge distance so early.

Turn two
Think i would have risked long charge againt chariotsin the hope if break through the centre and poss over run into NG3.
Magic, think i would be trying to get gaze through to pick wounds of the trolls, or pick out single chariot.

I was considering attacking the chariots. I could have done that, if he fled, I could always re-direct on Trolls. Somehow I decided to make that charge on Trolls anyway. As I said before, however, that was reckless and I would do better to cast magic missiles at trolls to soften them up a little.

BY Turn 3 , not much left to do i;m afraid, maybe move back and try pick of a unit or support with magic and shooting, faster moving stuff and let him continue to walk towards you.

Then try break through one unit with a duel charge.

Barring that, not sure what else to say.

Thanks anyway! Yes, I was amazed how quickly the things happened and by turn 3 it was a game for survival only and to deny as many points to the enemy as possible.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

After the loss against O&G I decided to make some changes to the army list and I fielded it against another enemy (although the same player). This time I was to face dreaded Deamons in the Battle for the Pass.

Army Lists and Pre-battle Considerations

As always we played wihtout telling each other the exact equipment of our armies so I don't know what exactly his army had in terms of gifts.

Deamons of Chaos

Herald of Slaanesh on Steed, General, Siren Song
Herald of Slaanesh, BSB, Siren Song
Mask of Slaanesh
Herald of Tzeentch, Loremaster gift, Lore of Shadow
Changeling

39 Horrors
38 Deamonettes of Slaanesh
10 Seekers of Slaanesh
6 Flamers of Tzeentch
5 Furies
2 x Fiend of Slaanesh

High Elves

Prince on Barded Steed, Dragon Armor, Great Weapon, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Helm of Fortune, High Magic
Archmage, level 4, Folariath's Robes, Silver Wand, Dragonbane Gem, Lore of Life
Mage, level 2, Annulian Crystal, Lore of Light
BSB, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix

30 Spearelves, Full Command, Standard of Discipline
12 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
12 Archers, Light Armour
13 Swordmasters, Musician, Banner of Sorecery
9 Silver Helms, Musician, Standard
5 Dragon Princes
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician
2 x Great Eagle

I changed my army list not knowing what is the next army I will be fighting against. It was quite funny twist that when I dropped Light Lore on the Archmage my enemy turned out to be deamons. In any case I wanted to increase survivability of my fragile troop and decided to try out Life again. Previously I did that with a single Archmage and it was often not enough. This time I had two more wizards (better chances at channeling) and more spells to chose from. The Prince would offer 5+ ward to Silver Helms. The Archmage would be able to increase the toughness of any unit (usually Swordmasters), or give regeneration to his regiment or bring back fallen warriors to life. Hence Silver Wand to have better chances at getting these spells. Of course I would be more than happy to have a Throne up to have better version of each spell. Light wizard, with some luck, would have Pha's Protection and/or Banishment. Other spell are useful too but in the worst case scenario he can always cast Burning Gaze and that counts as flaming attack too.

I haven't fought against deamons for a very long time and not once in 8th edition. They are always a very difficult army to defeat. My army does not really have an answer for a Greater Deamon either (I might have a chance if I wounded it with magic missiles from Light Lore but it still would cost lifes of many elven warriors to bring it down). That is why I was relieved when I saw my opponent decided not to take one. It does not mean his army is less dangerous. However, he always has to field soemthing else everybody does and that sometimes results in not that good army lists. He was also using Deamons for the first time.

Deployment


Deployment after Vanguard moves

Tzeentch Herald and Changeling joined Horrors, while Slaanesh Heralds joined their designated troops. Mask had to be deployed on her own.

Luckily for Elves, Light Mage had both Banishment and Burning Gaze, while the Archmage had Earthblood, Flesh to Stone, Throne, Regrowth and Dwellers. The Prince had Shield of Saphery and Drain Magic

High Elves won the roll off for the first turn and begun the battle.

High Elves Turn 1


High Elves move carefully

Not wanting to fight Deamons too early HE deplyed a little further than usual and didn't rush to meet their enemy from another wolrd. Deamons would come to them anyway and a few magic missiles would sent some of the infernal creatures back to their realm. Eagles moved to the rear as they would be needed later and HE general didn't want to risk them being the target of deadly flames of Tzeentch. Ligh cavalry, however, moved towards Fiends in order to slow them down. Other regiments adjusted their position so that whatever steps on the hills could be a target for arrows and countercharges. As only Seekers were in range of the archers they opened at them and a single deamonette fell down. The Archmage managed to get himslef a Throne while the Prince cast Shield at Swordmasters and other attempts were dispelled by deamons.

Deamons of Chaos Turn 1


Deamons speed forward

Deamons moved forward as quickly as possible, the fastest units speeding at the flanks of the army, while big infantry groups went for the center. Winds of magic were very low and elven wizards dispelled any attempts to cast spells by deamons. Flamers of Tzeentch targeted one unit of Archers and only 3 remained alive after the storm of fire that was unleashed upon them. They were resulte to continue to fight, though.

High Elves Turn 2


Clash of cavalry unit on the flank

Elven Prince spotted quick Seekers and ordered his unit to charge. Unfortunately, the siren song was heard before they hit home and nearby Dragon Princes also tried to charge Seekers instead of their primary target, Flamers. What is more Dragon Princes didn't reach Seekers in time. However, Silver Helms had something to proove to their more arrogant kin and in a quick and brutal clash they destroyed all Seekers with only their Herald remaining at a loss of 3 of their number.

The rest of the army held their positions, with Reavers trying to sneak around their enemy. Elven wizards could not harm deamons just yet but archers killed one flamer.

Deamons of Chaos Turn 2


Deamons continue their advance

One Fiend managed to charge elven light cavalry while the other attpempted to finish off remaining Archers but they retreated and its charge failed short. Furies and flamers surged forward and big deamon units continued their march towards elven lines. Mask of Slaanesh used the fact that SH haven't destroyed Herald of Slaanesh just yet and moved to a more convienient location from where she could perform her dance and as a result Dragon Princes had their move reduced significantly. Again elven wizards prevented chaos deamons from casting their evil spells. Flamers killed 4 more archers, this time from the second unit but they too didn't panic.

Elven Prince stepped up to finish off evil creature in a duel and it had to accept the challenge. Despite being unnaturaly quick it could not escape his blade and was destroyed for good. Light cavalry fought well and although they lost some of their numbers they stood their ground.

High Elves Turn 3


High Elves try to outflank their enemy

High Elves move to further outflank their enemy but majority of the army holds their lines and do not close their distance to the two big units of deamons at the center of the battle field. Archmage managed to bring back all 3 fallen knights and Silver Helms were at full strength again. Light Mage sent Banisment and Burning Gazethrough deamonic defences at flamers but despite that only 2 flamers were destroyed. Ellyrian Reavers inflicted 2 wounds on Fiend and it shimmered a little as if were to disappear but then next moment it was solid as before and the fight continued.

Deamons of Chaos Turn 3


Deamons turn their formation to prevent outflanking

Furies charge 3 archers who have just rallied. They tried to shoot and fough bravely but fell to the vicious attacks of winged deamons. The same fate met reavers who tried hard to finish off the Fiend but died anyway. Deamons shifted their formation, well aware of the presence of the elven heavy cavalry at their flank. Even the Mask exposed herself help her deamonic kin to trap Silver Helms. She also performed her dance and elven Knights had to slow down. With low winds of magic again deamons could not use their magic efficiently. Flamers kept attacking archers and 2 more fell down to their fire.

High Elves Turn 4


Elves are reluctant to attack just yet

Dragon Princes were in the right position to attack their designated target but somehow didn't manage to reach the Flamers. Silver Helms didn't want to attack the exposed mask and risk counter-charge of the deamonettes and pulled back a little. Light mage cast his magic missiles at flamers and deamons focused all their power to prevent that. However, as a consequence they let the Archmage to go unnoticed and he used that opportunity fo gather massive energy to cast Dwellers at Horror unit. To his surprise he failed and the spell didn't work (I cast the spell with 6 dice and got 20 when I needed 21, haha)

Deamons of Chaos Turn 4


Deamons seem to occupy the center of the battlefiled for some unknown reason

Fiends rushed towards their daemonic brethren and protected their flank. Furies exposed themselves for a charge from Dragon Princes while Flamers tried to move away from Spearelves and shot at archers killing some more. Elven wizards prevented may spells to be cast but deamons managed to get Tzeentch Firestorm through their defences and only 3 Swordmasters remained alive after that. What is more, 3 Horrors appeared in front of them while warriors of Hoeath decided to reatreat and protect the Archmage. (I rolled 11 for a panic test twice :/)

High Elves Turn 5


High Elves finish off some lesser deamons

High Elves charge some of the smaller units of deamonic armies. Yet another Siren Song is heard across the battlefield and one of the eagles cannot bear it and flies away from the source of the evil song. Silver Helms attack the Mask and elven Prince once again kills the servant of Slaanesh in single combat. Dragon Princes avenge archers and kill all the furies while Spearelves destroy flamers at last. Remaining archers finish off the wounded Fiend. Enraged Archmage summons his powers again and this time Deamons are helpless. Half of the unit of Horrors is destroyed by Dwellers, evil Changeling among them.

Deamons of Chaos Turn 5


Deamons shift their position but do not move away from the center of the battlefield

Deamonettes of Slaanesh attack Great Eagle that is blocking their path to nearby Silver Helms but before they reach it, it is killed by evil Tzeentch magic. Silver Helms' steeds are unnerved by the deamonic magic and elven knights have to pull off to regain control over their mounts (yet another failed panic test).

High Elves Turn 6


Elves try to destroy more deamons with their powerful magic

Elven units rally but are too far away to make any successful attack by now. The only way to destroy deamons at this moment is by magic. Again, Archmage manages to summon powerful magical energies and casts unstoppable Dwellers. Ten more were destroyed. Light mage tried to cast his spells as well but managed to get through only banishment and only 2 more horrors disappeared after that. Horrors were almost destroyed, almost ...

As both armies were already apart Deamons tried their magic for the last time but the Archmage didn't let them harm elven warriors any more. With that last act the battle was over.

After-battle thoughts

I managed to win but only by around 500 points. If I destroyed that big horror unit the margin of victory would be much greater. Unfortunately, my light spells, although cast, didn't do much damage. I rolled below average on the number of hits despite having additional dice against deamons. Especially in the last turn when after Dwellers only around 10 horrors remained and I rolled triple 2 for number of hits for Banishment (which turned into 2 wounds only). I didn't have luck in my previous attempts too but I am not complaining as I am really pleased with how magic worked this game in general.

I definitely had less trouble in that game because of the absence of Greater Deamon. I know there are successful armies without one but it defnitely makes life easier if one does not have to worry about such a potent element of enemy army. I also think my opponent made a mistake with his Seekers when he exposed them to Silver Helms attack.

I was very careful with my army, maybe too careful and that meant I was too far away from his units to make a charge in the last turn while having Silver Helms unsupported. However, I wanted to deal with his small units first in order to be able to run around his units. I made a mistake with Reavers by not checking if they are out of sight of a fiend (they could not march) and was a little unlucky as they almost killed it but it made necessary ward saves. But it was my first battle against Deamons and I know they are dangerous even without the greater deamon anyway. That was also a reason why I didn't charge with Silver Helms earlier (if I had eagles closer I would attack the Mast one turn earlier though) as I was not sure if they can stndd to so many Armour Piercing attacks from Deamonettes, especially that my other units could not offer support.

In general I am happy not to lose again but I am sure it could have been played better. My opponent is going to use Deamons again next battle and this time I am sure I will have a chance to see Keeper of Secrets in action.

Thanks for reading!

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Nice work Swordmaster, battle for the pass is an annoying scenario for cavalry, not enough room to move around, but tones of room behind, scouts have fun here. You were a little timid this time, with those flamers caning your archers, you could have moved them up to get in the way of those fiends and furies. Your turn two it was a good idea to try to send the DPs in support of the SH bus but those flamers would have been a better target for them.
Now that you know what he's bringing next time, will you retool your list?

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

If it was not for a Siren Song I would charge Flamers with DP as I planned from the start. He saw it coming and since I didn't park and eagle in front of DP to prevent that I had to move them too.

I have some ideas for the army list but I need some more time to think about them.

[Curu Olannon]

Congratulations on the win! Daemons are always a good matchup for us, you played this one well!

Some comments:
- Your opponent's list was pretty average, as far as Daemons are concerned. I can understand him not taking a Greater Daemon but he had some sub-par choices
- You were lucky with your spell selection but unlucky with the ingame results (especially banishment!)

Onto the game:
T1: good movement, nice setups
T2: again, very good movement. I like the aggressiveness of your cavalry! Did your Reavers shoot the nearby fiend (do they even have bows)?
T3: good reforms by your centre, however your Silver Helms move I don't really like: you're super-vulnerable to Siren Song. There is no way you'll beat that big block head-to-head. I cannot believe he didn't Siren Song you in his T3, this move single-handedly gave you the game on a silver platter. He would've been able to direct 28 armour piercing attacks in your direction, each turn for at least 2-3 combat phases. That's an average of 3 helms dead per phase which would quickly whittle the unit down. I would've placed the SH less offensively, using an Eagle (if possible) to block siren song. This would've allowed your DP to threaten the Daemonette's flank, along with the Swordmasters
T4: It's good to see you know when to be patient - which you did very well this turn. In a lot of your former games, you've been too impatient when you have the ranged advantage. Here, you waited him out. Perfect!
T5: counter-charge from centre hits home and wipes out all his annoying units. I love it! Also the Eagle block is really nice, keeping your Helms safe.
T6: There's not too much happening here. I suppose you could've charged the Fiend with your cavalry and used your eagle to block his Daemonettes but that's at best 15 points in your favour or something like that

It was pretty clear that your opponent was new to Daemons. His moves were undecisive and oncoordinated and he made a huge mistake not using Siren Song T3. With that being said, Daemons is never an easy matchup for us. The one thing you had going for you this game was his lack of shooting and magic threats. This allowed your fragile units to move and do whatever they pleased. I believe you'll find that if you're not facing any respectable amount of shooting and/or magic and you manage to be patient, you'll find this army can work very well. When you're outnumbered and outshot however I believe you'll struggle more. Examples include Lizardmen MSU, OnG, Empire and Dwarfs.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Greetings!

Time for battle 3 of my tournament preparation. Deamons again but this time typical battle line. My opponent decided to make some significant changes to his army list and so did I.

Army lists and pre-battle considerations

Daemons of Chaos

Keeper of Secrets, Level 4, Siren Song
Slaanesh BSB, Siren Song, Daemonic Robes
Heralnd of Tzeentch, Level 2, Master of Sorcery, Spellbreaker - Beasts Lore
Mask of Slaanesh

36 Deamonetess of Slaanesh, Full Command, Siren Standard
20 Deamonetess of Slaanesh, Full Command
2 Fiends of Slaanesh
5 Furies
5 Furies
5 Nurglings
6 Flamers of Tzeetnch with Pyrocaster

As I expected a greater deamon had to appear at some stage. I have never faced one but it is going to be a great trouble no matter against what might be the enemy army. From reports of other players it seems that Keeper of Secrets is very dangerous one as it is a very fast, very good in combat and a potent spell caster too. So the main idea to deal with it was to comehow occupy it and try to get rid of the rest of the army. And that is not going to be easy as this force is also fast, negates ASF advantage in the case of big deamonetess unit and Siren Songs with abilities of Mask of Slaanesh will definitely disrupt movement phase. Fortunately this army is also relatively small and its support regiments, if cought by elven elites, can be quickly destroyed. Hence the plan in general was to get rid of support first, block the keeper and try to kill deamonettess one unit at a time.

High Elves

Archmage, Level 4, Annulian Crystal - High Magic
BSB, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant

20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
20 Spearelves, Musician, Standard
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician

10 White Lions, Musician
10 White Lions, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Musician
9 Swordmasters, Musician
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Bows, Spears

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

8th edition MSU high elves as advised by SmithF. I was really inspired by his approach and his experience with Empire MSU and decided to give it a try. I still remember the time when MSU was suggested for the first time at Druchii.net in the old days of their poorly designed army book and when that actually bred a lot of good tacticians. I also missed something in my army, which became more and more character heavy. It was very fragile and any casualty was very painful. One cannot avoid harm in that game at all so when I realised I have no room for absorbing some punishment without significant impact on the abilities of my units to deal damage in return I decided it is a time for a change. And since I was often advised to bring more troops I thought it is as good time to try pout MSU as ever. A quick review of available miniatures and the fact I needed 2400 strong army (SmithF build his example for 2500) and I came up with the list you see above.

First, I was overwhelmed how many troops and individual warriors I can have. It would be yet another challenge to move that army around in a proper way but somehow it felt good. And I actually thought I have a chance against Deamons as I have enough units to distract big one and then deal with the rest of his army. I also decided not to change the army list much in comparison to the idea presented by SmihtF to have a good starting point. He has a better experience in that kind of armies so I trusted him he knows what is he doing I might make some changes in the process but at the moment I focused on how to deal with deamons with this force.

I wanted to quickly destroy flamers and DP are the best for it. With two units and many more deployment drops I was confident I can place them where they are needed. They could also destroy any light troops on their own so I wanted to play aggressively with them as overruns could actually get me into contact with target sooner. I wanted to use White Lions to stop greater deamon. Despite his many attacks I think that with proper positioning and them being stubborn, as long as there is only one left I could try and hold the infernal creature longer. Swordmasters and Spears with their number of attacks could be a threat to deamonettess especially if I could kill the herald. Of course not head on but with more units on the table than they had I could create some favorable charges or situations (hopefully).

Last but not least I planned to use drain magic often to make his spellcasting more difficult, even with +6 to casting rolls sometimes. Shield of Saphery was also a good idea to have, especially for WL fighting against greater deamon but any extra protection for fragile troop is great. Having two of them is great too. Other spells are also good and versatile so no matter what I got I can find a way to use it.

That's about plans, let's see how much of it survived the contact with the enemy

Deployment


Armies ready for battle, just after scouting and vanguard moves

At the beginning an important note. It seems I forgot to distinguish Slaanesh BSB herald. She is with big Deamonettes in the top right corner and was there entire battle. Apologies if that creates some confusion. Archmage joined White Lions, while BSB decided to lead Spearelves.

The altars in the middle of the board was treated as difficult terrain and also gave hard cover.

Keeper of Secrtets got following spells - Acquiescence, Succour of Chaos, Slicing Shards of Slaanesh, Phantasmagoria
Elven Archmage got - Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery, Courage of Aenarion, Fury of Khaine, Flames of the Phoenix

To our mutual surprise elves won the roll off and took the first turn as a very good sign.

High Elves Turn 1


High elves seem to own the movement phase

With an exception of Archers entire army moved forward. On the East Dragon Princes positioned themselves for charges against any light troops of deamonic host with eagles acting as a bait and protection against inevitable assault of horrible slaanesh "music". On the West elven infantry moved swiftly to be able to cover the distance to deamonic army in time. White Lions headed towards the altar where they could keep strong center and await proper moment to start hunting the greater deamon. Two units of Swrodmasters performed second line duty in the case any furies landed behind the first line and supporting their troops at the same time. Despite long distance and intervening terrain magic and shooting saw one unit of furies completely destroyed. What is more, combined efforts of the Archmage and his BSB companion saw a massive drain of winds of magic in order to stop foul deamons from casting their spells. Seems like a good start for Elves.

Daemons of Chaos Turn 1


Slaanesh Deamons are not foot sloggers either

Nurglings happily run after one eagle and then another one but big birds didn't want to play and to nurgle little ones dissapointment flew away. Fiends attmepted to charge Reavers who feigned their retreat. Flamers moved away from their bane and although safe now it also brought them a little too far away from any target for their deadly flames. Mask run towards the altars from where she could be seen performing her dances and one unit of white lions didn't feel so stubborn anymore. Greater Deamon barely summoned enough energy to cast one spell which was promptly dispelled by the archmage.The second attempt to send some razor sharp shards towards White Lions failed though.

High Elves Turn 2


Early charges of elven cavalry

Dragon Princes had some options for an attack but to attack they decided anyway. One unit pinned down Nurglings before they started to spread their infestation. The second unit saw an interesting opening and charged furies while at the same time White Lions attacked the Mask. It looked like Dragon Princes could break through furies and either help Lions to deal with the Mask or even reach Flamers behind. Unfortunately, although they destroyed Furies with easy, they didn't overrun into the Mask (After closer inspection she indeed was not on their overrun route) and fell one inch short of the Flamers. At least they were out of sight of other units who could have charged them later. White Lions inflicted only a single wound to the Mask and she killed 3 of them in return. With lowered leadership White Lions could not hold even despite encouraging shouts of nearby BSB and run. The Mask followed closely. Eagles rallied as did light cavalry and Ellyrians rushed forward to guard the flank of Dragon Princes fighting Nurglings.

Daemons of Chaos Turn 2


Deamons are reluctant to speed forward

Mask chased after fleeing White Lions and cought them but that brought her into a fresh fight against elven Archers. However, it looked like these particular bowmen were Swordmasters in disguise as they inflicted enough wounds to destroy evil Mask. Deamonetess charged Reavers who tried to buy time for heavy cavalry still stuck in combat with little nurglings. The rest of the deamonic army consolidated and seemed reluctant to move forward. Flamers shot at Swordmasters but only 2 of the warriors fell. Greater Deamon, however, had some plans of its own and first managed to turn Dragon Princes nearby into simpletons and then its presence was felt on entire battlefield due to potent Phantasmagoria. Many elven units struggled to hold on and not to fear even the smallest of deamons as if they were much greater threat. Some of the elven warriors lost that struggle but kept fighting on, although with much lower efficiency.

High Elves Turn 3


Elves redress their ranks

Dragon Princes failed to come to senses and stumbled forward despite the presence of their foe nearby. The unit on the East finally managed to finish off Nurglings and reformed but it was clear they run out time to prepare the next charge before they are going to be attacked first. Swordmasters moved behind them and eagle landed nearby for support. The rest of the army re-arranged battle line. Unable to shake off the fears of his warriors the Archmage decided to attack deamons in a more direct way and engulfed big unit of deamonettes in flames. Many of them were utterly destroyed in the fire which seemed to grow even bigger with every moment.

Daemons of Chaos Turn 3


Deamons attack exposed elven cavalry

Greater Deamon charges Dragon Princes who are oblivious to their fate. Keeper of Secrets instantly kills 3 of them but as they seem to be no fun at all it lets them flee and faces another elven unit. Deamonettes charge another unit who is determined to stand and fight. And stand and fight they do, managing to hold despite voices in their heads urging them to run. Flamers float nearby and obliterate all but two Swordmasters who refuse to panic nevertheless. Fiends enter ruined altars. Winds of magic blow weak this time and no spells are cast.

High Elves Turn 4


Siren Songs are heard over the battlefield

Two remaining Swordmasters now have an opportunity to avenge their fallen brehtren and help valiant Dragon Princes with a charge against Deamonettes. That fight keeps on going but Deamonettes die much faster than elves. Before anything else happens though, some disturbing songs are heard over the battle field and on the West great eagle recklessly charges Slaanesh Herald and her Deamonettes while White Lions move forward Keeper of Secrets but fortunately magical forest makes the song die away quicker and Chracian hunters stop before they reach greater deamon. Other units keep moving further and the Archmage yet again changes the unit and jumps to second Spearelves. Remaining Great Elagle blocks Keeper of Secret while two survivors of Dragon Prince unit come to their senses for a while and rally.

Daemons of Chaos Turn 4


The long charge of Fiends of Slaanesh

Fiends of Slaanesh use an opportunity that White Lions were lured to attack other target and charged one of the Archers unit. Brave elves stand and shoot and ready their weapons. Greater Deamon runs towards great eagle and while doing so once again casts Phantasmagoria to shadow the minds of elven warriors. Great eagle does not last a moment and fiends break Archers despite the fact they killed one of the deamons. The second unit's nerve is broken too and the flee never to rally. Dragon Princes and Swrodmasters keep fighting and only a few Deamonettes remain. Can elves prevail?

High Elves Turn 5


Setting up the trap - is it not too late though?

Dragon Princes expose themselves as they prefer to die honorably to clean the shame they feel at being so easily manipulated by Slaanesh magic. Other units respect that and move to set a trap for Deamonettes and avenge their fallen warriors. Lone Swordmaster and his 3 Dragon Prince companions fight well but in the end they lose and due to the foul spell clouding their minds they are unable to keep fighting anymore. Two surviving Dragon Princes flee the battle. Only 4 deamonettes are left standing after that war of attrition.

Daemons of Chaos Turn 5


Deamonnetes attempt to break through

Keeper of Secrets charges elven knights to get rid of these annoying mortals. Daemonettes decide to charge White Lions who are fixed in place by the magical Siren Standard. Despite furious attacks White Lions defend perfectly and they stubbornly hold the line. Fiend of Slaanesh tries to block nearby Spearelves from joining the combat while Flamers shoot at Swordmasters but only a few of them dies and the survivors pass panic test.

High Elves Turn 6


Elven last charge

Despite their efforts not all of the units are in position for a charge but those who are do so without hesitation. Unengaged Spearelves and Swormdasters run forward to be away from the Keeper's line of sight. The Archmage summons enough energy for 2 potent spells. His magic missiles destroys Tzeentch herald as Keeper of Secret does not bother to dispel that spell. The herald was useless to him anyway and it was good opportunity to get rid of that spy of rival god. Then the Archmage focused his mind and broke through deamoinc defences engulfing Deamonettes in flames once again turning 6 of them into ashes. After magical assault another attack hit home. Swordmasters destroyed Slaanesh Herald but not before she killed a few of their numbers. White Lions and Spearelves hacked left and right and more Deamonettes fell. They fought back but not that efficiently and only single line of them remained after that combat. They kept fighting but it didn't look good for them at all.

Daemons of Chaos Turn 6


Last act

With majority of remaining deamons in a bad spot to join the fight only Fiend charges into the rear of White Lions. Flamers yet again are a little too far away from any target. Keeper of Secrets, enraged by the fact it didn't have enough fights summons his power and Phantasmagoria is cast for the third time this battle. Despite that elves fight like never and before Deamonettes or Fiend have a chance to strike they all fell dead, with Spearelves alone inflicting no less but 9 wounds.

It seems that this bloody battle reached its end. Both armies suffered a lot but again elves managed to snatch a victory over deamonic foe.

After-battle thoughts

That was a very interesting battle for both of us. I am sure many things could have been played better, from the deployment phase onwards but it was a great fun. We both had our share of good and bad luck. I failed to dispel Phantasmagoria 3 times having one more dice to do so every time This potent spell was the doom of my troops. Both Archers units and Dragon Princes on the East were lost due to its effect, not to mention many failed fear tests only slightly of less importance thanks to ASF and re-rolls I still had. A few thoughts after the battle and first time use of MSU style army.

1. Having so many units feels good during deployment and movement phase. I really like the fact I could always have some regiments to keep attacking despite loses or that I could try and set up traps. Not that I need to sacrifice units but if I have to I have some to do it.

2. High magic is fun too. Easy to cast, there was no need for banner of sorcery (although it would not harm to have extra dice or two). It might not be spectacular but double Drain Magic is something to be afraid of while even single Drain Magic forced my opponnet to use one more dice for particular spell than he normally would use. With Annulian Crystal many times I also had more dispel dice than my opponent. Unfortunately he gave me the ones which resulted in 1's anyway

3. My opponent claims this army is quite confusing as it is hard to make a decision what to attack without expensive targets. He played only his second game with Deamons so maybe it will change later but I do think it plays the role in the battle anyway.

4. I was concerned with amount of time I might need to move around this army but it didn't take longer than with my previous battles. Of course it still requires to anticipate the outcome of fights and one need to position units with more care but it does not take forever and I think with more games it might actually be easier.

I hope you enjoyed the battle report as for us it was a nice and refreshing experience. I will be playing with some form of MSU army. I don't really plan to change the army list much but I am always happy to discuss possibilities and I always carefully consider any suggestions. Feel free to post any comments!

Thanks for reading!

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Wow the deployment just looked queer, so many units, so many troops, and the daemons deployed in refused flank, that's what we do!
The problem with MSU is having so many units, your movement phrase can suffer because of crowding. Your deployment was okay, except a little backwards, your fast troops are all on the side your opponent deployed on, they should have been on the other side. Your slower infantry had to take the scenic route, if your cav could have rushed down that side and rolled into the flank it would have been awesome.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

As I have never used MSU myself I admit I am not confident with deployment yet. My idea, however, was to reverse the deployment you suggested because Keeper of Secrets would have longer distance to reach my infantry. I also wanted to get to flamers as soon as possible. It didn't work but then he had to keep them close to his units as well and not fly and shoot at will.

MSU is not a perfect solution and might be another very fragile one but it felt great to have so many units to push around. They are not that big, however, to get crowded. There is still a lot of space to move them

[~Milliardo~]

Very interesting - I like this new approach! You've managed to keep your swords and horses theme too. :3

[Siegfried VII]

Hey mate.

Great reports all three of them.

Just a question for the 6th turn of the last battle you mention that Daemonetes are engulfed in flames by the spell Flames of the Phoenix. I assume it was the remains in play effect of it, right? Because since they were engaged in close combat you could not cast it on them anew...

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Siegfried!

I did cast them again while they were in combat. We checked the way the spell is described and looked into FAQ but could not see that it is not allowed to be cast into cc. Did I miss something?

[tundrik]

Would flames of the phoenix not be classed as Direct damage? If it does and I can't see why it wouldn't then it cannot be cast into CC unless specifically states it can.

[Siegfried VII]

On page 31 of the main rulebook (mini version) paragraph "Choosing A Target" it says that targeting restrictions vary from spell to spell. However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply:

The fourth entry of these rules states that Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat.

The fact that Flames of the Phoenix do not fall in a specific spell category is irrelevant as these are blanket rules.

So what you did was actualy illegal.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Damn it! I really should read the rulebook more often. I just hope they would crumble due to combat resolution. I destroyed 6 of them (I think) due to the spell. So if they would be there for combat. Speareleves themselves destroyed 9, I had a charge and 2 standards, I was already winning by a lot. Of course it all depended on his instability roll and he could have survived with just a single model there. In any case I am really sorry we didn't look at it as I don't like winning this way. I hope next battle I can do so without dirty elven tricks

[Prince of Spires]

On page 31 of the main rulebook (mini version) paragraph "Choosing A Target" it says that targeting restrictions vary from spell to spell. However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply:

The fourth entry of these rules states that Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat.

The fact that Flames of the Phoenix do not fall in a specific spell category is irrelevant as these are blanket rules.

So what you did was actualy illegal.

Except that it actually does state otherwise.

Underneath the targeting restrictions you quoted it sais: Some spells that are printed in older warhammer armies books do not a type. Their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply.

This states an exception to the standard casting rules. Saying that you have to look in the spell description for restrictions is an exception. And it never has been FAQ-ed otherwise. Not allowing Flames to be cast into combat is a holdover from 7th edition. People just continued to play it as it was in 7th.

In the description of flames it sais: "remains in play. This may be cast on an enemy unit within 24". So, any enemy unit within 24'' is a valid target.

Both arguments have valid points (although of course I think my interpretation fits the rules best). Pick the option you think works best and discuss it with your opponent or 4+ it.

Rod

[Siegfried VII]

Underneath the targeting restrictions you quoted it sais: Some spells that are printed in older warhammer armies books do not a type. Their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply.

This states an exception to the standard casting rules. Saying that you have to look in the spell description for restrictions is an exception. And it never has been FAQ-ed otherwise. Not allowing Flames to be cast into combat is a holdover from 7th edition. People just continued to play it as it was in 7th.

In the description of flames it sais: "remains in play. This may be cast on an enemy unit within 24". So, any enemy unit within 24'' is a valid target.

Both arguments have valid points (although of course I think my interpretation fits the rules best). Pick the option you think works best and discuss it with your opponent or 4+ it.

Rod

I think you are wrong mate. It says that Some spells have a type that comes with restrictions and below this it says what yoy quoted that there are spells that do not fall into any type have their own targeting restrictions if any.

Thing is though that the rules I quoted are blanket and universal for all spells unless it stated otherwise in their spell description. In the description of the Flames of the Phoenix it doesn't say it can be cast in close combat, so these blanket rules come into play as normal, making the casting of this spell in close combat illegal.


Cheers, Sieg.

[dabber]

Guys, the targetting restrictions on old book spells are TOTALLY UNKNOWN. There are large threads on every Warhammer forum about it, including this one.



edit: Don't mean to sound rude with the big font. Just trying to stop an endless debate clogging up a nice battle report thread.