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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:25 pm 
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
I've been meaning to get this underway for a while, but Curu Olannon's request cemented the deal. I've created this thread to chart my experiences as a High Elf general, focusing primarily on battle reports and list discussion with some painting thrown in for good measure. Thanks for reading!

Archmage (Level 4) with Annulian Crystal, Foliarath's Robe, Lore of Shadow.
345
Prince (Level 1) with great weapon, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, High Magic.
257
Noble with great weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, battle standard.
163

Spearmen (34) w/ fc
331
Archers (12) with musi, std, Banner of the Eternal Flame
157
Archers (12) with musi, std
147

White Lions (20) with fc, Amulet of Light, Banner of Sorcery
395
Phoenix Guard (24) with fc, Gem of Courage, Razor Standard
445
Dragon Princes (5) with musi
160

Two Eagles
100

2500


Last edited by Tethlis on Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:21 pm, edited 29 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Originally posted Jun 20, 2011
Link to original post: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=35803


So having been inspired by many of the great reports here on Ulthuan.net, I caved and decided to start documenting my games with diagrams. I had a scrap with Dwarves over the weekend, 2500 points.

I used my standard take-all-comers list, which meant my Level 1 was less-than-ideal:

-Archmage (Level 4) with Silver Wand, Foliarath's Robe, Talisman of Saphery, Lore of Life.
-Mage (Level 1) with Sigil of Asuryan, Lore of Metal.
-BSB with great weapon, armor of caledor.
-34 Spearmen with full command.
-12 Archers with musician, standard
-12 Archers with musician, standard
-21 Swordmasters with full command, Ironcurse Icon, Banner of Sorcery.
-21 White Lions with full command, Skeinsliver, Banner of the Eternal Flame.
-7 Dragon Princes with full command, Amulet of Light.
-Tiranoc Chariot
-Great Eagle
-Great Eagle

The Dwarves had:

-Runelord with 2x Rune of Spellbreaking, Master Rune of Balance, Rune of Resistance, Rune of Stone, Rune of Preservation, gromril armor, shield.
-BSB with Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Preservation, Rune of Resistance, battle standard.
-30 Dwarf Warriors with full command, great weapons
-30 Longbeards with full command, great weapons
-40 Hammerers with full command, Master Rune of Grungni.
-10 Ranger Quarellers with musician
-Cannon with engineer, Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning
-Cannon with engineer, Rune of Forging
-Grudge Thrower with engineer, 2x Rune of Penetrating, Rune of Accuracy
-Organ Gun

For spells, rolling two pairs of doubles on my AM gave me great options and I ended up with:

-Earthblood, Flesh to Stone, Throne of Vines, Regrowth, Dwellers Below

I knew that Searing Doom would make little difference on my Level 1, and hoped for one of the Augments instead. I ended up with:

-Enchanted Blades

Terrain was straightforward; my opponent did as much as he could to try and bog down the middle with terrain, while I countered by adding plenty of obstacles to use as cannonball screens as well as some buildings to let my units skip forward a bit by moving through them. The square on the right hand side of the diagrams was a pond, using Mysterious River rules. The ruins in the middle affected line-of-sight, but not movement. Technically it was a Magic Circle.

Deployment
Image

Straightforward deployment, with my right flank loaded up. I kept both Great Eagles stashed safely behind an obstacle, hoping to lure out stonethrower shots or else just waste cannonballs. My BSB was in the Swordmasters to give re-rolls to my elites and make sure they kept slogging forward, and my AM sat safely in the big Spear unit. I fanned out all my elites 10-wide to minimize warmachine casualties, as per usual, but deliberately kept my spears in a nice appealing block to hopefully tempt the warmachines to focus fire on them.

The Dwarf basically did what anyone would expect of them; formed a big line, with warmachines behind them. I was overjoyed that his Hammerers were deployed on my weak flank though; the Warriors and Longbeards would be a much easier target for me to overwhelm with my good units. The rangers went into the tower on the left side, presumably to harass with crossbow fire and possibly pop out as I advanced and threaten the flank of my big spear unit.

Dwarf Turn 1
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He won the even roll-off for first turn, and (unsurprisingly) shot the hell out of me. One cannon took 3 wounds of my Tiranoc Chariot, the other tried to snipe my AM (who pass Look Out Sir!) but plowed up 8 spearmen instead. The Grudge Thrower landed on an Eagle and pulverized it into mush, while the Rangers in the building sniped a couple of archers.

High Elf Turn 1
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I (unsurprisingly) advanced forward with everything. There wasn't much point in keeping my archers back to shoot; I wasn't exactly going to kill piles of Dwarves with Strength 3 shooting, and all the Dwarf regiments obscured my line-of-sight to the machines, so I couldn't effectively try and pick them off either. I didn't imagine my Eagles would last long, which meant I had another plan for my Archers. The White Lions hopped into the building to scoot through and come out the other side next turn, while my Dragon Princes marched up to stop short of the pond (playing using river rules) and would slog through it next turn. My remaining Eagle flew over to the Swordmasters, getting ready to try and lure out a Dwarf warrior charge and remain out of organ gun and crossbow range.

I got a lovely 12 dice, which was sadly foiled. My opponent gleefully let me get off Throne of Vines, knowing he could use Power Dice to dispel it as Remains in Play next turn. My 6 dice at a boosted Dwellers Below yielded a might total of 14 to cast... Effectively ending my magic phase.

Dwarf Turn 2
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Slight regiment shuffling by the Dwarves, with them bringing the Hammerers forward to try and reach my best troops. Throne of Vines was dispelled. The Grudge Thrower missed the Swordmasters, scattering close enough to hit the Tiranoc chariot (knocking its last wound off and killing it) while also killing two White Lions in the building. Apparently the death of my Eagle was too much for my Swordmasters, and decided that failing a re-rollable Leadership 9 Panic test and fleeing 10 inches was the right move to make. The Rangers and Organ Gun opened up at my rather unfortunate archers, killing 7 of them between them. These guys decided to pass their Panic test though... Whoop dee doo.

High Elf Turn 2
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Sigh. I rallied my Swordmasters, hopped the White Lions out of the building and the Dragon Princes forded into the river. The river turned out to be a River of Light, and my Dragon Princes enjoyed the benefit of WS10 and Initiative 10 for a turn. Yippee?

Magic fired up, a nice 4/5 roll that turned into 11 for me, 8 for the Dwarf once channeling, Master Rune of Balance and Banner of Sorcery were all done doing their thing. Throne of Vines was stopped this time, but I decided to take my chances with a 6-dice Dwellers to try and snipe the Runelord and thin out the Longbeards. Irresistible Force saw my Wizard lose two magic levels, Dwellers and Throne of Vines, and knocked down a few Dwarves for my troubles (but not the Runelord.) My Level 1's feeble casting attempts were dispelled pretty handily by the Runelord.

Shooting continued to ping a few wounds off the Dwarf warriors. Every rank I grind off of them is one less Steadfast rank I have to hack through in combat...

Dwarf Turn 3
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The Dwarven regiments continued to shuffle a bit before the shooting phase kicked off again. A (non flaming) cannon nailed a Dragon Prince and killed him, while the laser-guided Grudge Thrower killed three more. With my BSB out of place, the Dragon Princes failed Panic on Leadership 9 and fled back through the pond they'd just been wading through. Sigh. The other cannon's attempt to snipe with BSB failed, and while I was tempted to let him take the hit and rely on the 2+ Dragon Armor save to preserve him, I figured losing a Swordmasters was more prudent than losing my BSB due to being an overconfident idiot.

The Rangers plinked away at my archers, doing slight damage, while the Organ Gun decided it would be a great time to blow up.

High Elf Turn 3
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Well, it's my Turn 3, and my Swordmasters are basically where they started at the beginning of the game while my Dragon Princes will still need to spend at least 2 turns rallying and then getting close enough to the fight before they can actually contribute anything useful. All my warmachine hunters are dead as well, and I have a Level 2 and a Level 1 versus the best anti-caster in the game who hasn't even needed to use scrolls yet. Lovely.

Still, at least I have my White Lions, who declared a 13-inch charge against the 24-ish remaining Dwarf Warriors and managed to make it. If the White Lions could just hold on for a bit, I would be able to get the Swordmasters up in time to help. I also decided the Hammerers were getting too close, and since one of my Archer units was on the verge of being shot to death anyway, I may as well put them to use in an Eagle-esque fashion and moved them forward to block/delay the Hammerers for a turn.

Magic was... Interesting. An attempt at Flesh to Stone on 4 dice (which I fully expected to be dispelled with ease) ended up Irresistible Force instead, blowing up a good chunk of Spearmen and wounding my Archmage. Lovely.

In combat, my White Lions did beautifully, killing off 13 Dwarf Warriors, taking only a handful of casualties in return, denying them Steadfast. The Dwarf begged the Dice Gods for Insane Courage on his re-rollable Break Test, failed to achieve it, and the Dice Gods mocked him horribly by giving him Double 1s for his flee distance immediately after. My White Lions promptly ran the Warriors down, overrunning into the cannon.

Dwarf Turn 4
Image

The Hammerers, annoyed with my Archers, decided to follow the path of complete and utter overkill and charged them. The Longbeards were now in a tricky spot... They had the Swordmasters in front of them, and the White Lions would be behind as soon as they had finished off the cannon and reformed. My Swordmasters were a fair distance away, while my White Lions were quite close, and my Dragon Princes also had a relatively decent chance at a charge as well. The Longbeards decided to take their chances with the White Lions and Dragon Princes, reforming to face their front and hoping that my Swordmasters would fail the 13-inch charge to reach the flank of the Longbeards.

For shooting, the Grudge Thrower misfired and was stuck being useless for a couple turns, while the other cannon attempted to snipe my BSB and did a couple of wounds.

In combat, murder predictably ensued. My White Lions took down the cannon crew and reformed to face the Longbeards, while my Archers (though they valiantly killed two Hammerers) were pulverized in a flurry of Strength 6 Attacks. The Hammerers then reformed to face the Longbeards, hoping to march in and help next turn (if there were any Longbeards left to help...)

High Elf Turn 4
Image

My White Lions hit the Longbeards in the front, and (much to my opponent's disappointment) the Swordmasters hit the Longbeards in the flank. I then moved my other archer unit up to block off the Hammerer's counter-charge in an Eagle-esque fashion; sorry boys, it's rough being a High Elf Core choice. My Level 1, Level 4 and Spearmen then backed up a bit to make sure any Hammerer overrun moves wouldn't put them in danger.

For Magic, I Regrew a handful of Swordmasters in an Irresistible Fashion, and drained the last 2 Magic Levels off my Archmage. There goes any attempt at a Magic Phase.

Still, it didn't seem to matter much. My elite infantry wiped out every Longbeard, leaving only the Dwarf BSB facing 40+ pissed off Elves. The BSB decided this wasn't so bad though, promptly rolled Insane Courage and I was stuck there. With no other options, I reformed my Swordmasters to give the Dwarf BSB their flank and be ready in case the Hammerers decided to come play with them.

Dwarf Turn 5
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Thankfully, my archer-blocking shenanigans paid off and the Hammerers were stuck murdering my Core units yet again. The Dwarf machines opened up on my Spearmen with two casters (er... One caster and one useless 300 point guy in a dress) in the hopes of panicking them, but the machines missed their mark this turn and had no effect. Meanwhile, the Dwarf BSB disappeared in a hail of great axe attacks and I reformed to take on his remaining warmachines.

High Elf Turn 5
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My White Lions charged the cannon, my Dragon Princes (finally able to do something at last) charged the Grudge Thrower, and both crews were quickly massacred for their troubles. Neither of us really had the ability to gain any more points from one another in the last turn, so we called the game right here.

I had lost:
-12 Archers with musician, standard
-12 Archers with musician, standard
-Tiranoc Chariot
-Great Eagle
-Great Eagle

My opponent had lost:
-BSB with Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Preservation, Rune of Resistance, battle standard.
-30 Dwarf Warriors with full command, great weapons
-30 Longbeards with full command, great weapons
-Cannon with engineer, Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning
-Cannon with engineer, Rune of Forging
-Grudge Thrower with engineer, 2x Rune of Penetrating, Rune of Accuracy
-Organ Gun

Win for the High Elves.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:28 pm 
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Originally posted Sun Jun 26, 2011
Link to original post: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=35867


I had a good game over the weekend against WoC. I used a variant of my usual list, but invested more points in my support caster to make him a Level 2 with the very appealing Lore of Light:

-Level 4 Archmage with Silver Wand, Foliarath's Robe, Talisman of Hoeth, Lore of Life.
-Level 2 with Annulian Crystal, Lore of Light.
-Noble BSB with great weapon, Armor of Caledor.
-34 Spearmen with full command.
-12 Archers with musi, std
-12 Archers with musi, std
-6 Dragon Princes with full command, Amulet of Light
-21 Swordmasters with full command, Ironcurse Icon, Banner of Sorcery.
-21 White Lions with full command, Skeinsliver, Banner of the Eternal Flame.
-Tiranoc Chariot.
-Great Eagle
-Great Eagle

He had:

-Level 4 Sorcerer Lord with 4+ Ward, Dragon Helm, Infernal Puppet, Lore of Heavens.
-Level 2 with Dispel Scroll, Enchanted Shield, Lore of Shadow.
-Exalted BSB with Armor of Morsleib, shield, Mark of Tzeentch.
-40 Marauders with full command, great weapons, Mark of Khorne.
-40 Marauders with full command, great weapons, Mark of Khorne.
-6 Marauder Horsemen with flails, musician, Mark of Slaanesh.
-5 Hounds
-5 Hounds
-30 Chosen with full command, Banner of Rage, Favor of the Gods, halberd, Mark of Nurgle.
-Dragon Ogre Shaggoth with great weapon, light armor.
-Hellcannon

Spell selection was beautiful. A set of doubles on my AM, plus Silver Wand, and doubles on my Level 2 let me pretty much have my pick. I ended up with:

-Earthblood
-Flesh to Stone
-Throne of Vines
-Regrowth
-Dwellers Below

-Shem's Burning Gaze
-Birona's Time Warp

The Chaos Sorcerers ended up with:

-Iceshard Blizzard
-Curse of the Midnight Wind
-Uranon's Thunderbolt
-Comet of Cassandora

-Miasma
-Mindrazor

Terrain fed us a ton of obstacles, buildings and forests. The WoC player did a great job of boxing me into the middle, filling up the flanks with buildings to limit my ability to flank or outmaneuver him. Trusting in my magic and missile advantage, and hoping that Life could help compensate for any Hellcannon hits, I made sure both deployment zones had fences I could use for a strong defensive advantage.

Deployment
Image

With the Eagles, chariot and archers giving me plenty of easy drops, I had a great sense of how the WoC would deploy. I responded by creating a defensive formation with my Core, with chariot and Dragon Princes ready to come in and assist as necessary while using my Archers to clean out the hounds, fast cavalry and thin the marauder horde. My elite drops got ready to tackle the Chosen and other marauder horde, set up to make good use of the fences nearby.

High Elf Turn 1
Image

With a nice +2 for my roll, I scored first turn and settled in to make use my magic and archery. I shuffled the Archmage and Swordmasters to get within Dwellers range, but otherwise kept my movement minimal. With a nice 5/4 roll and Banner of Sorcery for a total of 11 dice, I got underway with a Throne of Vines (which was let through) followed by a boosted Dwellers on the Chosen, scoring 28 on 6 dice with no Irresistible Force while Earthblood finished up the phase. The Chosen managed to roll pretty terribly for their Eye of the Gods, ending with +1 Leadership and not much else to help them. 15 Chosen and the Level 2 were dragged down. My Archers took out a hound unit and started knocking down the marauders.

WoC Turn 1
Image

The WoC came forward full tilt, with the Shaggoth hiding out behind the building. A poor 3/1 Power Dice split gave me the edge in his phase, and all he could do was dispel Throne of Vines. The Hellcannon took aim at the Swordmasters, scattering to score a straight hit on the Tiranoc Chariot and destroying it utterly.

High Elf Turn 2
Image

I moved my elite regiments forward to take up position behind the fences. Magic saw a strong 12-dice phase for me after Banner of Sorcery and channeling were through, and Throne of Vines went back up, followed by Flesh to Stone on the Swordmasters in case the Hellcannon kept up its barrage. I saved my last pile of Dice for a boosted Burning Gaze, knocking three wounds from the Shaggoth. I kept up a steady hail of arrow fire on the marauder horde, willing to take my chances with the marauder horsemen thanks to Speed of Asuryan.

WoC Turn 2
Image

The Hellcannon opted to rampage, not doing much of anything, while the WoC screening units moved up to block off some of my charge lanes. The marauder horsemen made a nice move in front of my Dragon Princes, boxing them in and letting the Shaggoth get off a potential charge next turn. The Hounds blocked off my White Lions while the Chosen and marauder regiments moved up. Magic was poor again for the WoC player... A sorry 2/1 split and Annulian Crystal made things easy for me as he simply dispelled Throne of Vines.

High Elf Turn 3
Image

I charged my Dragon Princes into the marauder horsemen, planning to wipe them out quickly and reform to prevent the Shaggoth reaching my Core troops. One Eagle moved to block off the marauder horsemen from hitting my White Lions, only allowing them to charge the Swordmasters which would force them to split frontage with the Chosen if they both charged. The result here is that fewer of those lethal Chosen attacks would be hitting my Swordmasters while allowing me to chop up fragile, squishy marauders for easy combat resolution while also allowing me to concentrate all my magic support on the Swordmasters alone.

Magic ended up 4/1, with no channel and Banner of Sorcery giving me one dice for 6 total. I managed to get Earthblood up on the Swordmasters, but Flesh to Stone was shut down with a strong dispel roll.

Arrow fire on the Shaggoth had no effect. The Dragon Princes won their combat with ease, reforming in a 4/2 formation to face the Shaggoth and be ready to resist its charge or flee if that seemed a better option.

WoC Turn 3
Image

On my left flank, the dogs charged my White Lions to get out of the way of the marauders and Chosen who barreled into the Swordmasters. The Shaggoth and second marauder unit with Sorc Lord shuffled a bit, declining to engage yet.

Magic gave the WoC 3/3, though they managed to channel while I did not. Annulian Crystal helped me to stop Iceshard Blizzard on my Swordmasters, but Curse of the Midnight Wind slipped through and would give my Swordmasters some difficulty.

Combat was bone crunching... Even having to re-roll 6s and facing Mark of Nurgle, the Swordmasters hacked down 7 Chosen and 9 Marauders in a storm of glittering blades. My Archmage threw out a challenge, and my opponent (suspecting Talisman of Hoeth/Foliarath's Robe) accepted with the Chosen champion. I got a bit nervous when the Chosen scored a terrifying 15 hits, turning into 11 wounds. I managed to keep the pressure off by making 5 Regen saves, and was relieved that Cuse of the Midnight Wind didn't affect the 6s I rolled there. The Khorne Marauders were at a major disadvantage as I was defending the fence, only causing 2 more casualties themselves.

When the dust cleared, he was sitting on top of 14 combat res:

-8 kills
-3 ranks
-charge
-standard
-battle standard

Compared to my 18, putting me ahead by a healthy margin. The marauders held with their Steadfast, but this proved too much for the Chosen who failed and fled. The White Lions massacred the dogs (no big surprise there).

High Elf Turn 4
Image

In my turn, the Great Eagles enjoyed their never-before-seen moment of glory and ran down the Chosen. My Dragon Princes shuffled to face the Shaggoth while my Core repositioned to take on the Marauders or else deal with the Shaggoth if it did well, the Archers ready to flee if necessary and let my Spearmen take either charge to their front. I repositioned the White Lions for a flank charge on the Marauders next turn. A 4/1 magic phase and +2 from the Banner of Sorcery gave me a couple spell options. Since none of my life buffs would help too much against a Strength 8 Dragon Ogre, I tossed up Throne of Vines to bluff my opponent and make it look like I was going for a big Dwellers cast. Still traumatized from my Turn 1 magic phase, my opponent stopped Throne in the hopes that I'd be too nervous for Dwellers, but then I just cast Timewarp on the Dragon Princes instead to give them better odds against the Shaggoth.

In combat, the marauders were hacked down to nothing by the Swordmasters, who broke and fled with the Swordmasters in hot pursuit.

WoC Turn 4
Image

The Hellcannon rampaged again, and the marauders kept fleeing. The Shaggoth charged into the Swordmasters, while the Sorcerer Lord planned for a Comet to try and make a last minute grab for Victory Points. High Elf anti-magic kept him contained though, without much difficulty.

The Shaggoth hacked down 3 Dragon Princes, who did a wound in return and held on their re-rollable Leadership.

High Elf Turn 5
Image

The marauders were run down, while both archers and the Spearmen went into the marauder horde. Throne of Vines went back up, followed by Regrowth on my Dragon Princes which brought them back up to full strength. The Archers and Spearmen performed beautifully, massacring 12 marauders, taking minimal casualties in return and running down the marauders and Sorc Lord. The Dragon Princes managed to polish off the Shaggoth and we called it a day.

Conclusion:

I lost:
-Tiranoc Chariot (I'm amazed my Eagles survived...)

He lost:
-Well, pretty much everything since there's a good chance I could have gotten the Hellcannon before the end.

Overall, I admire my opponent trying to use Chosen who weren't packing a 3+ Ward, but I'm really not sure they're worth taking unless you can make sure they get plenty of support via Warshrines. He basically got the very worst Eye of the Gods result he could get with that first roll, since it wasn't a useful option and nothing he could modify the result to was very useful either. Taking the equivalent point cost of 3+/5++ Chosen and perhaps some chariot or Knight units might have tipped things in his favor a bit.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:29 pm 
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Originally posted Sun Jul 03, 2011
Link to original post: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=35936

I had a tricky game versus Empire yesterday.

I used my standard list:

-Level 4 with Talisman of Saphery, Foliarath's Robe, Silver Wand, Lore of Life.
-Level 2 with Annulian Crystal, Lore of Light.
-BSB with great weapon, Armor of Caledor
-34 Spearmen with full command.
-12 Archers with musician, standard.
-12 Archers with musician, standard.
-21 White Lions with full command, Skeinsliver, Banner of the Eternal Flame.
-Tiranoc Chariot
-21 Swordmasters with full command, Ironcurse Icon, Banner of Sorcery.
-6 Dragon Princes with full command, Talisman of Light.
-Great Eagle
-Great Eagle

His List:

-Arch Lector on War Altar, Armor of Silvered Steel, Sword of Fate.
-Level 4 with dispel scroll, Lore of Life.
-BSB with Armor of Meteoric Iron.
-Warrior Priest with great weapon, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, rides a barded Warhorse.
-Warrior Priest with Enchanted Shield.
-Engineer.
-Engineer.
-40 Halberdiers with full command.
-Detachment: 20 Swordsmen, 10 Handgunners.
-10 Handgunners
-6 Knightly Order, full command.
-Mortar
-Mortar
-Cannon
-Cannon
-16 Outriders with repeater handguns.
-Steam Tank

Terrain: I can't say terrain deployment went well. We ended up with a river, and my opponent grabbed the biggest river in the place and stretched it across the table. I did my best to give myself some cover moving forward, but the river was going to be a problem.

Spell selection: Lore of Life gave me some good options, but I didn't end up with Regrowth as I hoped. My opponent got some decent Life spells but they made little difference in the end. My Level 2 ended up with Pha's Protection and Net of Amyntok... Very useful.

Deployment
Image

Obviously I needed to get across the river and into combat as quickly as I could before the Stank could bog down my best units and everything else could get shot up. The Eagles went down first, and the chariot as a basic drop since I knew it wouldn't last long versus all that missile fire. I knew the Dragon Princes wouldn't long long either, and there was so much Dangerous Terrain that it would be difficult for them to charge/advance effectively, so I used them as a filler drop as well. His Outriders vanguarded forward into a better shooting spot.

High Elf Turn 1
Image

With Turn 1 under way, I need to get across that damn river. I moved up as far as I could, ready to try and ford the river next turn. My Eagles moved up to draw fire and hopefully try to make it to his backline, or else lure one of his combat units forward and give me a chance to get into combat earlier. Magic kicked in with an unfortunate 3/1 roll, no channeling, and while Banner of Sorcery gave me 3 more dice, the Empire player had +4 dice from his pile of clergymen. Flesh to Stone on my Swordmasters was dispelled, Regeneration on my Swordmasters was dispelled. Archer fire focused in on the Outriders, only managing 1 wound with some strong sub-par rolling.

Empire Turn 1
Image

The Knightly Order went for a long charge on my Chariot, prompting a stand and shoot from me and a failed charge for him. The Steam Tank moved up to keep pace with the knights. His magic phase also saw 3/1, with me stealing a dice and shutting the phase down. His shooting phase was bit more eventful, with an Outrider gunning down an Eagle, both cannons firing dead-on into the flank of my Dragon Princes to take them down to 2 models, and both mortars scoring direct hits on my Swordmasters to wipe out 10 models.

High Elf Turn 2
Image

Time to keep moving forward... The Tiranoc Chariot and Dragon Princes charging the Knightly Order which prompted a flee and two failed charges. My troops waded into the river. My remaining Eagle flew into the face of the halberdiers, hoping to lure them out with a charge or else give me access to his warmachine line next turn. Magic saw another 3/1, with Banner of Sorcery giving me even dice against the Empire, and Flesh to Stone on my Swordmasters got off as well as an Irresistible boosted Pha's Protection with blew up some archers, wounded my Level 2 but left me feeling good about my survivability. Archers shot sub-par again, killing 1 Outrider.

Empire Turn 2
Image

The Steam Tank counter-charged my chariot, which I fled, and the Stank stopped at the river edge unable to follow. No other movement. Both cannons targeted the Dragon Princes, managed to squeeze a shot past Pha's and finished the Princes off, while 10 handgunners killed off my Eagle. Both Mortars were shut down by Pha's though, which was pleasant. The Outriders all targeted the White Lions, only managing one wound.

High Elf Turn 3
Image

This would be an important turn. My White Lions charged the Outriders around the well, and they opted to flee. My attempt to redirect into the handgunners failed to reach. My Swordmasters went for a slightly long charge on his flank handgun unit which managed to hit home, giving me an overrun into his warmachine park. My chariot rallied. Magic saw a huge 6/6 phase for me, which basically was purely wasted by poor rolls. Throne of Vines went off, but my 6 dice at Dwellers to hit the Halberd unit failed to hit the low cast value. My opponent had no problem shutting down the rest of my phase. The archers failed to impress when shooting at the fleeing Outriders, while in combat my Swordmasters murdered the handgunners and overran into two of his warmachines.

Empire Turn 3
Image

No charges, just shooting (no surprise there.) The Steam Tank motored over to flank shoot my White Lions with its cannon. His Outriders rallied and ran right back to where they were. Magic was unsuccessful for him, with me managing to keep it all in check. I couldn't do much about shooting though, with the Stank's cannon killing half a dozen White Lions, a cannon murdering my Chariot, and a mortar spanking 10 spearmen with a direct hit.

High Elf Turn 4
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This would be a very important turn. With no magic support for my White Lions, I was reluctant to charge the White Lions into the Outriders (who would probably flee again anyway) so I sent the White Lions at the halberd block instead. My hope was to combo-charge the halberds with the Lions and Spearmen, which would be an easy combat if both made it into combat. The Lions had an easy charge, only needing 5+, while the Spearmen had an average distance to go of 7 inches. The Spearmen made it, the Lions failed with a total roll of 3. It's okay, I have a backup plan! I got another great magic phase, 5/6 for 12 dice total. Knowing my White Lions would be shot to utter hell next turn, I got off Net on the Outriders, and my attempt for Pha's at the White Lions went off Irresistibly drained the last 6 dice I was all planning to throw at Flesh to Stone on my Spearmen were all drained, every last dice. The most important reason to get the White Lions into combat was to use their killing power to take out the Warrior Priest before the Empire troops got a chance to strike, removing Hatred from the Halberdiers. Even without Flesh to Stone, the combat would have gone well providing the Halberdiers couldn't re-roll to hit. With the WP alive though, and my Spearmen not having any protection, I knew the game was over for me.

The Spearmen did well with 9 kills, but the 30+ halberdiers left and multiple characters killed 14 spearmen and sent them packing. I rolled a 3 for flee distance and was run down. My Swordmasters hacked up a couple warmachines, overrunning into the rest.

Empire Turn 4
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Here comes the pain turn. The Steam Tank and Halberdiers both charged my White Lions. I opted to flee, hoping to buy myself time, but fled 2 inches and was run down there as well. His magic was again useless, thanks to Elven dispelling. The rest of his units moved up, ready to finish off my backline while others turned to address the Swordmasters in his backline who finished off his warmachines.

High Elf Turn 5
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The Swordmasters moved to fight whatever they could reach. My archers were basically all in trouble. I got off Flesh to Stone on my Swordmasters, and boosted Dwellers failed to cast on 6 dice again.

Empire Turn 5
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The Halberdiers charged my Level 2 and archers, who fled. Magic did nothing for him yet again.

High Elf Turn 6
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I charged my Swordmasters into his 20 Swordsmen, and went for a nice little flank on his halberdiers with my archers. My Level 2 and archers failed to rally and left the table. Magic didn't do too hot, though I got Earthblood on my Swordmasters. My Swordmasters massacred the Swordsmen and overran into the War Altar. My Archers failed to kill any halberdiers (10 hits, no wounds) though they held on Steadfast.

Empire Turn 6
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Not much to report. He saved all wounds on the War Altar with his ward save, and broke the archers with a rear charge from the Outriders.

I had lost:
-Level 2 with Annulian Crystal
-BSB with great weapon, Armor of Caledor
-34 Spearmen with full command.
-12 Archers with musician, standard.
-12 Archers with musician, standard.
-21 White Lions with full command, Skeinsliver, Banner of the Eternal Flame.
-Tiranoc Chariot
-6 Dragon Princes with full command, Talisman of Light.
-Great Eagle
-Great Eagle

He had lost:
-10 Handgunners
-20 Swordsmen
-Mortar
-Mortar
-Cannon
-Cannon

Afterthoughts:

I think I could have pulled this game out of the fire in spite of the slow advance and generally lackluster magic I had, but the failed Lion charge and poorly timed miscast to end that magic phase came at precisely the wrong moment for me, and was enough to make me lose both the spear and lion units and wreck my options. In hindsight, I don't think I would have done much differently, just hoped for different dice. I think my advance was as efficient as it could have been given the nasty river, and was pleased that I tied up the Steam Tank for a bit and gave my units a chance to get close to his vulnerable units without having to deal with. I had a good window of opportunity to crack the big halberd unit, take out three characters and open up his battle line, as well as two 6-dice Dwellers attempts that failed to cast, but options just didn't pan out.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
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Originally posted Mon Sep 26, 2011
Link to original post: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=36868

Playing a slightly larger battle than I normally do, I brought out the Asur versus Warriors of Chaos. Special Characters aren't broadly used on the West Coast here in the U.S., but Throgg's gaining a lot of popularity it seems. I brought my standard take all-comers 3k list:

My list:

-Level 4 with Annulian Crystal, Foliarath's Robe, Lore of Life.
-Level 2 with Silver Wand, Lore of Shadow
-BSB with great weapon, Armor of Caledor, Dawnstone
-40 Spearmen with full command
-19 Archers with musi, std, Banner of Discipline
-12 Archers with musi, std
-29 White Lions with fc, Skeinsliver, Banner of the Eternal Flame
-30 Swordmasters with fc, Ironcurse Icon, Banner of Sorcery
-6 Dragon Princes with musi
-6 Dragon Princes with musi
-3 Great Eagles

His List:

-Level 4 with Regeneration, Enchanted Shield, Lore of Shadow
-Level 2 with Mark of Tzeentch, dispel scroll
-Exalted BSB with 4+ Ward, Mark of Tzeentch, Shield
-Throgg the Troll King
-25 Warriors of Tzeentch, fc, shields
-40 Marauders of Khorne, fc, great weapons
-5 Hounds
-5 Hounds
-6 Trolls
-6 Chaos Ogres of Tzeentch with light armor, shield
-Chariot
-Chariot
-Warshrine of Tzeentch
-Hellcannon
-Hellcannon

Spells:
My Level 4 ended up with a very strong selection of Earthblood, Flesh to Stone, Throne of Vines, Regrowth
My Level 2 got Miasma, Enfeebling Foe, Mindrazor

The Sorcerer Lord got Miasma, Withering, Pit of Shades (not quite sure why he kept this one, may have kept it to get rid of Steed of Shadows, didn't see) and Mindrazor.
The Level 2 got Treason of Tzeentch and Gateway.

Deployment
Terrain deployment was quick and straightforward, with a huge ruin in the middle that counted as a 3-story building, with another ruin on the right flank. The left side had some obstacles, and nothing else played much of a role.

For our units, I did my usual spread of Eagles, as well as the small archer block and Spearmen in pretty neutral positions to keep my opponent guessing. I was rewarded by him pretty much splitting his deployment, and I dropped my elites opposite his monstrous infantry knowing they were the right balance of easy kills/valuable VPs.

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High Elf Turn 1
With a nice +2 to my roll, I handily won the roll to go first and went underway. Obviously Hellcannons aren't fun, so I sent everything forward full tilt and kept good coverage on my general/BSB in case of those Hellcannon Panic tests. I flew an Eagle up into the face of the Trolls, hoping to lure them into a foolish charge. I was hoping magic would come up big to help give me some durability, and I was promptly rewarded with... 3 Dice for Winds of Magic. Eesh. Channeling and Banner of Sorcery were able to take that up to 6 Dice though, and I got off Throne of Vines on 2 dice and threw the rest at Flesh to Stone on the Swordmasters. My opponent wasn't able to stop it, and so my Swordmasters felt good about life.

For shooting, archers targeted the hounds, panicking the unit on the right off the table and only managing one wound on the hounds on the left side.

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WoC Turn 1
The WoC player responded to the Eagle by charging it with hounds, while the rest of his units shuffled forward and the chariot on the left (not liking the look of my Dragon Princes) shuffled backward. Magic was weak for the WoC player also, with a low winds roll that the Annulian Crystal easily helped me to contain. Shooting wasn't nearly as controllable though, with two back-to-back Hellcannon hits directly on my White Lions which killed half the unit.

In combat, the Eagle dropped a hound and shrugged off their attacks which tied the combat.

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High Elf Turn 2
With the Eagle and hounds blocking my advance, I saw a nice opportunity to leapfrog into a huge combined combat. If I charged both the White Lions and Spearmen into the hounds (an easy distance) then I could wipe the hounds and also have a very easy overrun into the Trolls and Ogres. The Spearmen would only partially clip the Trolls, which meant they wouldn't be taking too many attacks, while the White Lions (and their Flaming Attacks) could split frontage across the Trolls and Ogres and hopefully rack up a massive kill count. With so many ranks on the Spearmen, and all the White Lion kills, plus Lore of Shadow/Lore of Life support for my units and no support on the Trolls or Ogres, I figured it would be a fine plan.

I charged the Spearmen and White Lions into the hounds, reaching pretty easily. Everything else moved up as well to cover their advance, with an Eagle dropping in front of the Tzeentch Warriors to delay them.

Unfortunately, magic had no intention of cooperating with my plan, and I ended up with a very tragic 4 Power Dice (only 1 from Banner of Sorcery, no Channels) while my opponent managed to channel and score another dice. I was able to get off Flesh to Stone on the White Lions, but there wasn't any other support. I still felt pretty good about my plan for the turn though, but a bit of Regrowth/Miasma/Enfeebling Foe would have been very, very welcome also.

For shooting, Archers kept up steady pressure on the Marauders (I find archers are great for just grinding down those big unwieldy Khorne hordes, so that a good High Elf charge can wipe them out pretty easily later in the game.)

For combat, I wiped out the Hounds as anticipated, but then my plan fell apart when the White Lions (needing an overrun of 5) decided to roll Snake Eyes and go nowhere. The Spearmen rolled higher though, and I decided to continue with the charge into the Trolls so that the Trolls, Ogres and Chariot couldn't all combo-charge the White Lions and wipe them out next turn.

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WoC Turn 2
Time for the big turn of Chaos counter-charging, and a world of hurt. The Trolls and Throgg hit my Spearmen to the front, as well as a Hellcannon which decided that thunderstomping pretty silver men was a good plan. The Ogres and Chaos Chariot hit the White Lions while the Tzeentch Warriors charged the blocking Eagle to get it out of the way. The Marauders, realizing they were nowhere close to any meaningful fight, hopped into the building in anticipation of leaping out in future turns to cause trouble wherever they were needed most.

Magic saw a pretty big phase for Chaos, with a 5/3 roll and a successful channel. Thankfully Annulian Crystal and a channel of my own helped even things up, and I was able to control the Miasma on my White Lions. I failed to stop Withering though, which basically cancelled out my Flesh to Stone that the White Lions were enjoying.

The Warshrine blessed the Ogres with +1 Attack, which wasn't very fun. For shooting, the unengaged Hellcannon took a shot at my Swordmasters, rolling a direct hit and... A... Misfire! Yay!

Then it rolled a 6, which meant the shot was resolved as a direct hit at Strength 10.

Boo. Splat. 12 dead Swordmasters.

Passed Panic on the re-roll, thankfully.

In combat, it was basically a really ugly mess of broken Elven bodies. Throgg, the Hellcannon and assorted trolls all breathed, puked and stomped all over my Spearmen and killed 22 of them. The White Lions did a bit better, taking 4 casualties from impact hits and managing to kill off 2 and a half Ogres before losing another 6 casualties. Ouchee. Thankfully, Stubborn and Steadfast held my units in place.

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High Elf Turn 3
Go go reinforcements, as my Swordmasters charged into the chariot while the Dragon Princes hit it in the flank. My hope was to quickly overwhelm the chariot and Ogres, then turn the flank and present a nice solid force to possibly rescue the Spearmen (wasn't really hoping for much there, at the rate they were dying) but at least staunch the bloodflow on my soft little Toughness 3 models. I flapped another Eagle over to block the Tzeentch Warriors yet again.

Magic finally saw me get a respectable 7-dice phase, with Banner of Sorcery getting me up to 10 dice and at least giving me something to work with. 2 dice at Flesh to Stone on the Spearmen was successful, as well as two dice at Regrowth on the White Lions to bring back a few models. I then tossed a full 6 at Okkam's Mindrazor on the Spearmen, scored irresistible force, blew up 4 Spearmen in the process, but was very excited for some Strength 8 fun.

Shooting was uneventful; Archers shot at Marauders in the building, for lack of anything better to target (unless you think Tzeentch Warshrines or Warriors are a better target) and managed a mighty one kill.

In combat, I was hoping for some big love here. The full unit of Dragon Princes managed... One wound on the chariot. Eesh. My Swordmasters also managed... One wound. Sigh. Thankfully my BSB stepped up and showed everyone else how things get done, taking off the last two wounds and saving me some pretty major embarrassment. The White Lions managed to hack up some Ogres as well, though the surviving Ogres rolled hot and killed off every White Lion but the standard bearer. That lone White Lion was now worth over 500 Victory Points... Thankfully the last two Ogres broke, fled, and my Dragon Princes promptly ran them down. My goal was to restrain and reform with my Swordmasters, letting me face the oncoming Chaos hordes next turn, but they decided they really, really needed to kill those two Ogres. The Swordmasters promptly failed their test(s) to restrain pursuit and went dashing right after the Ogres. The lone White Lion, feeling VERY alone, got ready to sprint for the hills next turn.

The Spearmen, feeling pretty lively with Mindrazor on them, allocated as many attacks at Throgg as possible. My opponent decided he would just say "screw it" to my nasty-ass Shadows spell by saving 5 out of 7 wounds with Regeneration, which wasn't very fun, leaving Throgg on 1 Wound. However, the rest of the unit decided that Hellcannons aren't fun for anybody and promptly killed the one fighting them, which was enough wounds inflicted in my favor to keep my break test managable even though the Spear Elves were massacred down to just the standard bearer and my Level 2 (not quite sure why he'd survived this long, my opponent may have thought I had Foliarath's Robe there, though I believe Chaos Trolls have acess to magical attacks which my opponent may have forgotten also? Not that it mattered because I didn't actually have Foliarath's Robe? So many mind games.)

The Spearmen, all 2 of them, held bravely.

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WoC Turn 3
My opponent was pretty fed up with my Eagle blocking shenanigans at this point, and sent the Tzeentch Warriors into the Eagle for the second time this game. He also unloaded the Marauders from the building, realizing that sticking around in his half of the table to after wayward Swordmasters was preferable to being riddled with short-range longbow shots and then charged in the face by angry Dragon Princes.

Also, unfortunately for me, my opponent has a really great knack for failing Rampage tests with his Hellcannons right when he has valuable juicy units sitting in his flank that he couldn't normally charge. So he failed his test, was able to make the random move charge, then (fortunately for me) also declared a charge at the Dragon Princes with the Warshrine also, which let me declare a flee reaction there (since I couldn't do it against the Hellcannon's random movement) and letting the Dragon Princes flee to safety.

My opponent made another lapse as well, wheeling the chariot to look over towards the Swordmasters which would let my other Dragon Princes (the ones who had been protecting my backline) make a strong push up to charge the chariot or possibly the Marauders next turn.

For magic, my opponent rolled up 7 dice and threw it all at trying to kill my last White Lion before I sprinted him out of range. I managed to stop Gateway with all my dice, but didn't have enough to stop Treason of Tzeentch which he'd saved two dice for. Thankfully my opponent rolled low and failed to cast, leaving the White Lion to laugh uproariously.

For combat, my valiant Spearmen died to the big mean trolls, while the Tzeentch Warriors murdered my Eagle. Poor Eagle.

Everything reformed to face my very lonely Swordmasters.

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High Elf Turn 4
A pretty straightforward turn! I charged the Hellcannon (because it was right in front of me), rallied the Dragon Princes (phew, they were quite close to the table edge) and dashed the Dragon Princes forward to the chariot. For magic, I got off Throne of Vines but Flesh to Stone was promptly dispelled because I rolled quite low on it. Boo. Archers kept up the pressure on the Marauders, who were down to about 18 models now. The Swordmasters and BSB annihilated the Hellcannon and turned to face the oncoming... Well, pretty much everything was pointed right at them.

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WoC Turn 4
The WoC player debated whether to send in the trolls as a first wave or wait until the Warriors could be brought up, but realized that I might be able to maneuver out of the way if he waited so he charged Throgg and company into the Swordmasters. The Tzeentch Warriors and Marauders moved up, with the Marauders reforming for greater ranks and maneuverability.

Magic fired up with 6/2 Dice with promptly became 7/7. Nice, thank you Annulian Crystal. My opponent went for Withering on the Swordmasters, but I was being wounded on a 2+ anyway by those Strength 5 trolls so let it be cast in favor of shutting down Miasma and any Gateway/Treason attempts.

In combat, my BSB proved his worth once again by finishing off Throgg, while the Swordmasters managed a damn fine 19 Wounds on the remaining Trolls, translating into three kills after Regen. By this point the three remaining trolls were pretty juiced up by Eye of the Gods rolls and managed 10 Wounds in return. I managed to score the win by a couple points, with the trolls breaking and me running them down. I opted to stop short of the Tzeentch Warriors, not wanting to tangle with those guys...

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High Elf Turn 5
My opponent thought he had my Swordmasters in a bad spot, but a passed quick reform let me narrow my frontage way down and sneak them past the Warriors. The Dragon Princes charged the chariot. Magic gave me a big 12-dice phase, which I split among Throne of Vines, Regrowth on the Swordmasters to bring back 4 models, and Flesh to Stone for some Toughness 7 violence to take on the Marauders next turn. The Archers lent their usual support with a few more wounds on the Marauders.

The Dragon Princes only managed one wound on the chariot as a result of my usual quality rolls with them :D , basically missing despite the re-rolls, while I lost two Dragon Princes in return. The chariot held despite my musician auto-win.

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WoC Turn 5
The marauders charged into combat, not hoping for much and losing 15 of their number to the Swordmasters. Magic failed to do much once again, with Elven dispelling pulling massive weight. With my Swordmasters primed to charge the WoC Level 2 next turn and with Chaos longer able to gain much in the way of VP, my opponent conceded.

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I had lost:

-Level 2 with Silver Wand, Lore of Shadow (eaten by Trolls!)
-40 Spearmen with full command (nomnomnomnom Troll snacks)
-2 Great Eagles (sacrificed for the cause)

He had lost:

-Level 2 with Mark of Tzeentch, dispel scroll (about to face a huge Swordmaster charge)
-Throgg the Troll King (impaled by Spears, head taken off by my battle standard bearer)
-40 Marauders of Khorne, fc, great weapons (pincushioned with arrows, brutalized by Swordmasters)
-5 Hounds (panicked off the table by Archer fire)
-5 Hounds (massively overkilled by Spearmen/Eagles/White Lions)
-6 Trolls (speared, slashed then run down by Swordmasters)
-6 Chaos Ogres of Tzeentch with light armor, shield (White Lion'ed, then run down by Dragon Princes)
-Chariot (taken down by my Dragon Princes and Swordmasters)
-Hellcannon (Mindrazored!)
-Hellcannon (Swordmastered!)

A win for the Asur

Unit review:

-Level 4 with Annulian Crystal, Foliarath's Robe, Lore of Life.
A-. Man, this guy's dice-dependent, but when he delivers he really delivers. The real value here is the dispel power though; my opponent never had a particularly meaningful magic phase, and +5 to dispel and the Annulian Crystal is monumental.

-Level 2 with Silver Wand, Lore of Shadow
B+. Not bad. I wasn't blessed with an overabundance of dice this game, so this guy's worth didn't shine through too much, but his clutch Mindrazor was key for dealing with that Hellcannon and softening up Throgg. He's a great backup option too, in case miscasts murder by Level 4, so I'm glad to have him.

-BSB with great weapon, Armor of Caledor, Dawnstone
A+. This guy was key at several moments, both as a fighter and for his re-rolls. As a warrior, he delivered the Coup de Grace to a chariot and to Throgg. His re-rolls were similarly key, letting me pass a number of Steadfast/Stubborn tests, Fear tests, Terror and Hellcannon-induced Panic with important re-rolls. It makes me wonder how I ever got by in 7th edition without universal Leadership re-rolls.

-40 Spearmen with full command
A-. When things went south with my White Lions failing to overrun into the Trolls, these guys were key for holding the Chaos lines in place and letting me get the rest of my blocks in place. I loved seeing them in action with Mindrazor too.

-19 Archers with musi, std, Banner of Discipline
B+. Not stellar, but a good character bunker, and they didn't die. Their pressure on the marauders all game was also useful.

-12 Archers with musi, std
Ditto as above.

-29 White Lions with fc, Skeinsliver, Banner of the Eternal Flame
B+. Their versatility is great. They took two direct Hellcannon hits, and still had enough steam left to fight through a chariot/monstrous infantry charge and stay in the fight despite heavy duty losses. Their Snake Eyes to overrun was their only real shortcoming here, but I guess that's more the dice's fault than theirs. I was glad to keep their last model alive and avoid yielding up all those VP.

-30 Swordmasters with fc, Ironcurse Icon, Banner of Sorcery
A. I wouldn't have pulled this game off without the killing power on these guys. I just wish they weren't so damn squishy.

-6 Dragon Princes with musi
-6 Dragon Princes with musi
B-. Eh... They did fine, but Warriors of Chaos are a tough matchup I think with all their ultra-durable targets and heavy duty hitting power. Strength 3 Attacks just don't cut it once their lance charge is expended, and at 30 points a model they're not exactly cheap enough to easily sacrifice. Still, they've served as good deterrents; enemies don't like being charged by cavalry with major re-rolls.

-3 Great Eagles
A+. Always important, every game. These guys make games possible, and buy me time when things go wrong. They're my very easy solution to Deathstar units, that's very hard for opponents to counter. One of them even managed to put a wound on the Exalted BSB during this game. Beautiful.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Originally posted Sun Oct 09, 2011
Link to original post: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=36983

I had:

-Archmage (Level 4) with Foliarath's Robe, Annulian Crystal, Lore of Shadow.
-Prince with great weapon, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Armor of Caledor, High Magic.
-Noble with great weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, battle standard.
-Mage (Level 2) with Ring of Corin, Lore of Light.
-40 Spearmen w/ fc
-19 Archers w/ musi, std
-12 Archers w/ musi, std
-24 WL w/ fc, Banner of Sorcery
-24 Phoenix Guard w/ fc, Razor Standard.
-5 DP w/ musi
-5 DP w/ musi
-3 Great Eagles

He had:

-Level 4 with Mark of Tzeentch, Talisman of Protection, Infernal Puppet, Enchanted Shield.
-Level 2 with Enchanted Shield, dispel scroll, Lore of Fire.
-Exalted Hero with Armor of Destiny, shield, Mark of Tzeentch, battle standard.
-Throgg the Troll King
-40 Marauders with fc, great weapons, Mark of Khorne.
-28 Warriors of Tzeentch with fc, shields.
-9 Trolls
-5 Hounds
-5 Hounds
-Chariot
-Chariot
-5 Chaos Knights with musician
-Hellcannon
-Hellcannon

Spells:
I was excited to see how this 3-caster approach would work out. I was very impressed with Ptolemy's balance of Shadows, High Magic, Light, and wanted to give it a try. For my Archmage, I was very familiar with Shadow so no big surprises; I ended up with Miasma, Pit of Shades, Pendulum (so sad, but I'd rather have that than the Steed of Shadows I ended up with) as well as Mindrazor. My Level 2 got Pha's Protection, a spell that's rapidly becoming my favorite in all of Warhammer Fantasy because it's cheap to cast and just so damn effective for High Elves. I got Net as the other spell, and took Shem's Burning Gaze instead.The Prince took the default High Magic spell, because everyone loves 5+ Wards.

My opponent had the usual Tzeentch nastiness of Flickering Fire, Pandemonium, Treason of Tzeentch and Gateway. Interestingly enough, he complained about my magic throughout the game but didn't attempt to cast Pandemonium once to try and slow it down. I think he's had such a good track record of obliterating big units with Gateway that it's his number one priority each and every magic phase...

His Level 2 ended up with Fireball and Flaming Sword, not bad.

Deployment
So deployment had kind of an interesting twist. I was halfway through my deployment when I noticed that my opponent was loading quite a few major units onto the field. I asked what points value he thought we were playing, assuming it was our local scene's standard 2500, and when he mentioned 3k I was a bit surprised. I shifted over to my 3k list, but this may be the only game I have ever played where I ended up deploying an Eagle last ;) . My 2500 list only has two Eagles, my 3k list has three of them, so down the Eagle went along with a few other additions.

As usual, Eagles and Archers helped do their job where deployment was concerned. When the Warriors started loading up one side with chariots, I knew immediately I didn't want to be on that side, so focused my heavy-hitters on the left and saw some good matchups.

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WoC Turn 1
The Warriors went first, and advanced the right flank of cav/chariots which my opponent now realized was out of position quite a bit. Everything else shuffled forward, with a modest magic phase firing up with Gateway and Fireball but being totally contained thanks to the Annulian Crystal and +5 to dispel. The Hellcannons took aim at the White Lions, but eating its crew with a misfire but the other kill 6 Lions with a small scatter.

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High Elf Turn 1
I saw some easy flank charge opportunities from the Eagles to try and get the hounds out of the way, so I took them. It's nice to be able to clear away hounds, and the Eagles weren't losing out on any positioning by charging into the fight. I didn't advance terribly aggressively; I wanted to get my left-flank Dragon Princes into a good position, and hopefully nuke the troll block with Pit of Shades at least once to remove a few before fighting them. The right flank was just going to be delaying the chariots and knights, so they were conservative there as well.

For magic, I got a modest roll for Winds and immediately put up the 5+ Ward on the White Lions and a boosted Pha's Protection. The Pha's went off irresistibly, resulting in a Dimensional Cascade (I need to stop rolling that damn result, it seems like 90% of my miscasts result in a 1-4.) Thankfully, the Level 2 didn't die horribly, but I did lose a few White Lions and some Archers in the process.

Speaking of Archers, their Archery did nothing this turn.

For combat, both Eagles broke their hound units and senT them fleeing.

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WoC Turn 2
The Hellcannon that lost its crew to a misfire rampaged into the back of the Chaos Warriors, while the rest of the Chaos lines shuffled a bit. The trolls didn't want to take the bait and charge the Eagle in their faces, knowing they were looking at a pretty serious combo charge that they wouldn't be able to flee, so the Chaos lines pretty much sat in place and hoped that their shooting would do most of the work. The left-hand Hound unit rallied. I wasn't able to stop gateway, which killed 8 White Lions (the unit was starting to look pretty slim) though I was able to keep the rest of the magic phase under control. The Exalted yelled at my Eagle, doing a wound. Pha's did its job beautifully and stopped the non-rampaging Hellcannon from targeting the White Lions.

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High Elf Turn 2
One last turn of trying to prep the field before committing to fights. My units shuffled, the Ward Save went up on the White Lions, but Pha's was stopped with dice and Pit was scrolled. A few archer shots scored wounds on the Trolls, but nothing too major.

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WoC Turn 3
The WoC right flank got aggressive, moving up with the Chaos Knights and twin chariots. The hounds moved into a blocking position for my dragon princes on the left flank, to keep them from getting to the flank of the trolls right away. Shouting from the Exalted took down my Eagle, and was backed up by Irresistible Gateway (with the damage offset by Puppet) to take the White Lions down to just 6 guys in the front rank. The Hellcannon with crew rampaged this turn and didn't fire, while the other one misfired again with no major affects.

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High Elf Turn 3
Combat time. I went for a combo charge on the Trolls, sending in the White Lions and the Phoenix Guard. The Lions failed their fairly short charge distance (only needed a roll of 5) but the Phoenix Guard rolled high and made it into the fight. I sent the Dragon Princes on the left into the hounds, to remove them and be ready to help the Phoenix Guard in case the fight with the trolls dragged out. I sent the right flank Dragon Princes into the Chaos Knights, not hoping for much except to get lucky and stall things over on that flank while the main fight unfolded on the other side of the table. I flapped an Eagle over to block off the Tzeentch Warriors and make sure they weren't able to hop into the Phoenix Guard's flank next turn and cause trouble. My Archers kept up their steady hail of arrows at targets of no consequence, with no real effect. Yay...

Magic came through with a nice 12-dice phase for me, though Banner of Sorcery never generated more than one dice in all 6 turns of this game. My opponent, deathly afraid of Mindrazor, wasn't prepared for me basically spamming small spells to make the Trolls useless. Miasma made them Weapon Skill 2, Pha's Protection made the Phoenix Guard -1 to hit, and my Mindrazor attempt was stopped on double 6s to dispel. Even without it though, things went fine. My champ stepped up to take the challenge from Throgg, since I wasn't in the mood to watch my Prince take a puke bath. Through some horrible rolling by my opponent and decent rolling by me, the Phoenix Guard champ took two wounds off Throgg before dying to a single wound! Throgg took a beating. My opponent made up for it though by saving every wound from my Phoenix Guard and most of the wounds from my Prince. Being so heavily debuffed though, they had to opt to Puke in order to get those auto-hits for damage, and the Ward Saves took care of that damage pretty handily. With 3 ranks, charge, standard, and a couple of wounds in my favor, the Trolls were testing very low and couldn't score the Break Test result they needed. They broke, fled 7, and with my fingers crossed I rolled for pursuit. Four inches...

Not only did the trolls escape, but it wasn't even enough to overrun into the Hellcannon. Annoying.

Nearby, the Dragon Princes eradicated the hounds and were now in a nice position on the flank. The other Dragon Princes had a considerably tougher fight on their hands versus the Chaos Knights, and while they were able to take down one knight, they lost a Prince in return and the Chaos Knights held through their break test. I knew those Dragon Princes didn't have a chance now that they were back to swinging with only Strength 3, but I suspected they would do their job of slowing down everything on that flank.

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WoC Turn 4
The Hell Cannon staring my Phoenix Guard in the face rampaged again, going straight into the Phoenix Guard. The Tzeentch Warriors charged my blocking Eagle to get it out of the way, while the Marauders piled into my Spearmen. Throgg rallied and turned to face the Phoenix Guard, ready to wait for the Hellcannon to have its fun before joining the fight along with his troll buddies.

Magic saw an Irresistible Gateway on the White Lions, taking them down to command + the BSB but avoiding that fearsome insta-kill result. Works for me. My dispel dice shut everything else down without problem.

In combat, the Prince and Phoenix Guard beat the Hellcannon down to its last wound thanks to the Razor Standard. On the other flank, the Dragon Princes killed a Chaos Knight, lost a Dragon Prince in return and the combat was a draw.

In the massive combat of Spearmen versus Marauders, the Spears performed beautifully with their high volume of attacks. They killed an impressive 12 Marauders, took 6 casualties in return, and the Marauders managed to hold through virtue of a lucky Break test. The Tzeentch Warriors took out the Eagle.

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High Elf Turn 4
This was kind of a tough phase, simply because I had to make some difficult choices. I could have sent the White Lions into the flank of the Marauders to try and quickly end the fight they were having with my Spearmen, but that would have allowed the Tzeentch Warriors (recently reformed after their Eagle killing) to flank my Phoenix Guard. I decided that the Phoenix Guard were really my only combat-effective option, and needed to be protected, so I sacrificed the Lions for use as redirectors and parked them in front of the Tzeentch Warriors (after shuffling the BSB out of the unit, since I certainly don't want to lose him). I also managed a sneaky little charge with the Eagle and Archers into the flank of a chariot that was sneaking around to go after my Spearmen. The chariot opted to flee, but was caught by the speedy Eagle and destroyed.

In combat, all 6 of my Power Dice went into bolstering the Phoenix Guard and helping them with the Inevitable troll charge next turn. I managed to get Pha's off on them, but unfortunately by attempt to Pit the trolls was stopped by an Irresistible Dispel.

Combats all went well though, except on my right flank. The Spearmen continued to massacre the Marauders, and the Phoenix Guard and Prince finished off the Hellcannon. Things were looking grim against the Chaos Knights, with the last Dragon Prince falling to two remaining knights.

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WoC Turn 5
The trolls charged the Phoenix Guard, looking to get even for the beating they'd taken earlier, while the Tzeentch Warriors were only too happy to charge my few remaining White Lions and wipe them out. The remaining chariot charged my Eagle, who fled, and tried redirecting into my archers and failed to reach. Gateway went off on my Archers this time, scoring some wounds but not doing major damage, while the remaining Hellcannon scattered off target.

In combat, my Prince stepped up and brutalized the remaining wounds off Throgg, tipping the scales in a huge fashion. With a bit of magic support, the trolls could barely inflict any damage at all, killing a few Phoenix Guard while the wounds I did in return simply added to my ranks and standard bonuses to tip the balance in my favor. The trolls broke and fled off the table.

Meanwhile my Spearmen made quick work of the remaining Marauders, having inflicted between 8 and 10 wounds a turn compared to the 5-7 wounds averaged by the Marauders, easily grinding through the unit and sending them fleeing where they were promptly run down. Now I had some choices for this upcoming turn...

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High Elf Turn 5
At this point, the game looked to be in the bag for me pretty comfortably. I could snag up a few more VP, avoid fights, and score a decent win. However, it's rare that I'm in a position to take on a big, durable Warrior block with any degree of confidence, and now looked like a decent opportunity...

The Spearmen hit the Warriors from one angle, the Dragon Princes from the other. Magic gave me 6 dice, my opponent got 4. I six-diced Mindrazor on the Spears, my opponent failed to dispel, and suddenly things were looking pretty decent. My opponent did scare the hell out of me by managing to save 2/3 of the Mindrazor spear attacks with his lousy 6+ Tzeentch Ward Save, but thankfully the Dragon Princes pulled through in valiant fashion to tip the scales and win the combat by a huge margin. The Warriors fled... Their BSB died... And they were all run down, netting me a huge pile of Victory Points (including that Sorcerer Lord general) in one enormous swoop.

Meanwhile, my Prince and Phoenix Guard kicked the crap out of the other Hellcannon, because noone likes Hellcannons.

I also marched my Archers the hell away from the Chaos Knights and remaining Chariot. No reason to keep them around...

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WoC Turn 6
The Hellcannon died to my Prince, the chariot failed to catch the Archers, and we called it a game!

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I had lost:

-24 WL w/ fc, Banner of Sorcery (blown up, shot up, hacked apart by Tzeentch Warriors)
-5 DP w/ musi (eaten by Chaos Knights while they valiantly held my right flank)
-2 Great Eagles (sacrificed for the cause, i.e. shouted at loudly and fed to aforementioned Tzeentch Warriors)

He had lost:

-Level 4 with Mark of Tzeentch, 4+ Ward, Infernal Puppet, Enchanted Shield. (run down by Dragon Princes)
-Level 2 with Enchanted Shield, dispel scroll, Lore of Fire. (run down by Spearmen)
-Exalted Hero with 4+ Ward, Mark of Tzeentch, battle standard. (died after being broken by Dragon Princes/Spearmen)
-Throgg (wounded by my totally badass Phoenix Guard champion, and finished off by the Prince)
-40 Marauders with fc, great weapons, Mark of Khorne. (broken and run down by Spearmen)
-28 Warriors of Tzeentch with fc, shields. (broken and run down by Spearmen/Dragon Princes)
-9 Trolls (broken repeatedly and chased off the table by Phoenix Guard)
-5 Hounds (fled the table after a chicken flank charge)
-5 Hounds (completely run over by Dragon Princes)
-Chariot (run down by an Eagle)
-Hellcannon (torn up by my Prince and Phoenix Guard)
-Hellcannon (torn down by my Prince and Phoenix Guard)

Big ol' win for the High Elves


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:33 pm 
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Originally posted Mon Oct 17, 2011
Link to original post: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=37049

I can't remember the last time I did a 1500 point game, but my opponent was short on time (or else figured I'd be handicapped in smaller point value) and requested we try one out. Comparing the lists, I feel much better with a 1500 point Ogre list than a 1500 point High Elf one...

I had:

-Level 4 with Annulian Crystal, Lore of Shadow
-BSB with great weapon, Armor of Caledor, Dawnstone
-20 Archers with full command, Banner of the Eternal Flame
-10 Archers with musician, standard
-21 White Lions with full command, Ironcurse Icon, Banner of Sorcery
-5 Dragon Princes with musician
-Great Eagle
-Great Eagle

My opponent was packing:

-Level 2 Butcher with Glittering Scales, Ironfist
-Bruiser BSB with heavy armor, Ironfist, Runemaw
-7 Ironguts with full command
-9 Bulls with full command, light armor, Ironfist
-Sabertusk
-Sabertusk
-4 Leadbelchers
-Ironblaster

All in all, he seemed to have quite a lot of combat-capable units and plenty of shooting. However, I had strong magic, a pretty consistent

Magic:
-I ended up with Miasma, Enfeebling Foe, Pit of Shades and Mindrazor. A good selection overall, but Withering was the one I was really hoping for, since it basically achieves the same thing as Mindrazor for a much cheaper cast value and also makes my arrow fire lethally effective. I did have Pit though, so no complaints there.

-The Butcher ended up with Trollguts for Regeneration, and +1 Strength.

Deployment
Hmmmm. I wanted to set up something of a bastion, with terrain in the middle to disrupt the Ogre advance a bit, so made sure I placed a central marsh. Thankfully the Ogre player took the bait, deploying opposite me to advance quickly but splitting his forces in the process. From my deployment position, I was in a good spot to send the White Lions either way around the central marsh and engage while the Dragon Princes helped cover their flank in case the nastier Ogre troops shifted their attention. My Archers were beautifully set up to shoot at the more vulnerable Ogre units.

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Elves Turn 1
At this point I still wasn't sure which Ogre wing I wanted to attack, left or right, so I kept movement to a minimum and focused on shooting to remove immediate threats. An average winds roll saw me attempt to slow the Movement on the Irongut bunker, and my opponent revealed the Runemaw and I bounced it to the Mournfangs instead. My 4-dice attempt at Pit of Shades on the Mournfangs failed to cast. Shooting was much better though, with the small archer unit dropping a Sabertusk while the big Archer block took aim to riddle two Leadbelchers full of white-fletched arrows. Bangin'

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Ogres Turn 1
Some big advancing (I always forget how freakin' fast Ogres are) and the pressure was on a bit. My opponent 6-diced the AoE Regeneration spell, which seemed very silly to me since the only thing it would benefit was the Mournfangs since it couldn't really affect the Ironguts because of the Runemaw. My magic defense was just huge though, with the +5 to dispel and Annulian Crystal, so my opponent basically realized he wasn't going to be getting much off this game unless it was Irresistible Force.

The two Leadbelchers decided that being shot at wasn't much fun, so started shooting back, getting 11 shots between the two of them and scything down half off the small Archer unit. They hadn't gotten it below 5 rank-and-file though, leaving my Archmage safe from the Ironblaster for the time being, so it contented itself with annihilating an Eagle instead.

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Elves Turn 2
At this point, the right flank looked like easier meat than the left one, so I wheeled the Lions in that direction and sent my remaining Eagle forward to block the Ironguts and prevent a flank charge on the Lions. Magic came through in fine fashion, with a direct-hit Pit of Shades that killed no less than seven of the nine Bulls. I focused all my archer fire on the lone Sabertusk, which seemed a bit like overkill but I didn't want to run the risk of it redirecting my White Lions and interfering with their ability to pick their fights. There was so much combat heat bearing down on the White Lions from the left flank that I didn't want them being pinned by a redirector.

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Ogres Turn 2
I had carefully spaced the White Lions so that the Mournfang Cav would need to basically roll perfect boxcars to make the flank charge charge, which they promptly did. My opponent decided to go all-in with his Bulls as well, rolling a 10 for their charge distance and basically putting me in impact hit hell.

I shut down the Butcher's attempts to buff both units without much trouble. Shooting opened up without much affect, killing some scattered Archers.

In combat, my Eagle was pulped in an instant and the guts overran to get closer to my Dragon Princes. The White Lions lost a rank to the 4D3 impact hits, then proceeded to completely wipe out the Bulls while the BSB leant his skill to also kill a flanking Mournfang. We drew the combat, I won via musician and the last Mournfang held on his terrible Leadership. The White Lions reformed to face the Mournfang.

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Elves Turn 3
I would have been looking at a great flank opportunity on the Ironguts if the Mournfang hadn't held, but unfortunately it had stayed in place so my White Lions would still need a turn to work through that combat before tackling the Ironguts. I didn't want my Dragon Princes taking an Irongut charge, so I quick reformed them and they danced behind the building to get out of line of sight of the big Gut unit. Pit of Shades on the Ironblaster was stopped with dispel dice, and my attempts to force some hexes through on the Ironguts were all redirected.

Shooting came up strong though, killing a Leadbelcher and panicking the last one.

In combat, the BSB and White Lions dropped the last Mournfang, reforming slightly to face the Ironguts without giving the Ironblaster a flanking shot.

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Ogres Turn 3
The Ironguts turned to face the White Lions, the Leadbelcher failed to rally, and the Ironblaster plowed a shot through the White Lions without much effect. My opponent didn't have much to do, since his augments couldn't really break through his own Runemaw banner, so there wasn't much effect there.

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Elves Turn 4
I didn't feel great about the White Lions versus Irongut fight, but charging was better than being charged, and if the White Lions could hold on for long enough then I could get the Dragon princes into the fight as well as kill the Runemaw BSB and use some Shadow hexes as well. In the mean time, my Archmage dropped the Ironblaster into a hole with Pit of Shades.

For combat, the Bruiser BSB declared a challenge to reduce the huge volume of Strength 6 that would be coming his way, and my BSB stepped up. In a flurry of utterly failed rolling, I managed zero wounds (scored two hits, Snake Eyes to wound) while my BSB died completely (four Strength 5 Attacks, all of them hit, all of them wounded, failed all four 4+ re-rollable saves.) I was all excited to have this great image of an Elven Noble planting his banner in the ground and they laying into a hulking brute with his greatsword, but ultimately I think the Ogre just belly-flopped on my BSB and crushed him into the mud. Ouchee.

Still, the other White Lions performed well, killing off the Irongut champion and taking the Butcher down to its last wound. The return attacks hurt, taking the White Lions down to 10 models left, but they held on their Stubborn.

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Ogres Turn 4
Come on boys... The Dragon princes were ready for a huge flank charge, I just needed to last another round. The butcher went for some critical buffs, once again shut down by my Archmage and his lovely Annulian Crystal. The White Lions tore through the Ogres, taking the Bruiser down to his last wound, killing the Butcher and hacking up an Irongut in the process. The return attacks hurt once again, with the White Lions dwindling to 4 models but staying in the fight nonetheless.

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Elves Turn 5
The cavalry arrived, with the Dragon Princes scoring their charge on the Ironguts. Since the Runemaw BSB was still on his feet, I couldn't dump hexes into the fight like I wanted, but that didn't stop me from giving Mindrazor to the Dragon Princes who ended the fight in an appropriately decisive fashion. By the time the dust cleared, a couple Ironguts were hightailing it towards the table edge with the Dragon Princes in hot pursuit. The command group for the White Lions had made it through the fight, and the Ogre player conceded.

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I had lost:

-BSB with great weapon, Armor of Caledor, Dawnstone
-Great Eagle
-Great Eagle

My opponent had lost:

-Level 2 Butcher with Glittering Scales, Ironfist
-Bruiser BSB with heavy armor, Ironfist, Runemaw
-7 Ironguts with full command
-9 Bulls with full command, light armor, Ironfist
-Sabertusk
-Sabertusk
-4 Leadbelchers
-Ironblaster

Win for the High Elves!

I have to say, I was feeling pretty nervous at the outset. The Ogres had a lot of heavy combat units on the table, tons of shooting, and even found room for some redirectors and a bit of a magic phase. This is an army that does Deathstars very, very easily; every one of their combat blocks feels like one! The speed, the impact hits, the stomps, the huge volume of attacks have the potential to get really overwhelming.

I think what really helped for me here, like with most games using Elves, was to manage my expections and identify the easy target. Once I spotted that the right flank was weakest, it was straightforward to use shooting/magic to suppress it and use the White Lions to finish it off while some timely Eagle-blocking slowed down the Ogres' best units. I was worried when the Mourfangs came into the fight with that flank charge, and I think my opponent would have been better served by not charging the depleted bull unit into combat also since that essentially fed me quite a few points of combat resolution without terrible loss in return (2 wounds from impact hits, versus the 6 wounds I inflicted with the Lions. If he had brought the Ironblaster over sooner, as well focused the Ironguts on facing the White Lions as directly as possible, I might have finished off the Sabertusks only to find myself staring down a love sandwhich from the Ironguts in front and the Ironblaster in back. Now THAT would have hurt.

As it was though, I was able to take on the different units relatively piecemeal, which was exactly what needed to happen when the opponent has many more combat-effective units than you do.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:34 pm 
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Originally posted Tue Oct 18, 2011
Link to original post: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=37057

My last Warriors of Chaos opponent was looking for a rematch, and I was happy to oblige him:

-Level 4 with with Annulian Crystal, Foliarath's Robe, Lore of Shadow
-Prince with great weapon, Armor of Caledor, 5+ Ward, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, High Magic
-Level 2 with dispel scroll, Lore of Light
-Noble with great weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, battle standard
-40 Spearmen with full command
-19 Archers with musi, standard, Banner of the Eternal Flame
-12 Archers with musi, standard
-21 White Lions with full command, Banner of Sorcery
-24 Phoenix Guard with full command, Razor Standard
-5 Dragon Princes with musician
-Lion Chariot
-Great Eagle
-Great Eagle
-Great Eagle

My opponent was packing:

-Level 4 with Mark of Tzeentch, Talisman of Protection, Conjoined Haemonculus, Infernal Puppet
-Level 2 with Dispel Scroll, Enchanted Shield, Lore of Fire
-Exalted with 5+ Ward, mark of Tzeentch, shield, Dragonhelm, battle standard
-Throgg
-7 Trolls
-40 Marauders with full command, great weapons, Mark of Khorne
-23 Tzeentch Warriors with full command, shields
-5 Hounds
-5 Hounds
-5 Chaos Knights with musician
-Chariot
-Chariot
-Hell Cannon
-Hell Cannon

Spells:
-I grabbed Miasma, Withering, Pit of Shades, Mindrazor. My Prince took High Magic's 5+ Ward, while my Level managed to get Pha's Protection (lovely) and traded Net for Burning Gaze.

-My opponent had all the nasty bits on his Level 4 (Flickering Fire, Pandemonium, Treason of Tzeentch, Gateway) while his Level 2 had Fireball and Flaming Sword.

Deployment
We rolled up Arcane Ruins as part of our terrain, which was HUGE. My opponent deployed it fairly centrally, and I immediately knew I wanted to work it into my battle plan because rolling up to 12 dice for Channeling every turn sounded terrific. Otherwise, I was able to load up my right flank while leaving enough cheap troops on the left side to hopefully stall my opponent and let me make an aggressive push.

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WoC Turn 1
My opponent grabbed first turn, dashed everything forward, and kicked off a strong magic phase with Treason of Tzeentch on the White Lions (I just had to stop that) and followed it up with Gateway on the same target that drew out my scroll. Those are a couple of game-breaking spells... Hopefully I could get into the fight quickly and try not to deal with them.

The Hellcannons opened up at the White Lions as well (this WoC player really seems to hate them) though a misfire (resulting in a dead crew) and a bad scatter meant no damage was done.

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Asur Turn 1
My right flank made a big advance forward, with the Eagles tucking in behind the main blocks so that they could flap forward and die heroically to redirect enemies next turn. Magic here was big... An average roll was quickly turned into 12 dice when I managed to roll five 6s for my twelve channeling dice. Thanks, Arcane Ruins! My Prince took a miscast in the process, but no damage was done when the Phoenix Guard all shrugged off their Strength 10 hits. I dropped the Chaos Knight's Movement with Miasma, just in case they got aggressive, and also got off a boosted Pha's protection that covered all my elite units. For shooting, the Archers opened up and plinked some dogs to remove them as redirectors. One dog unit panicked.

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WoC Turn 2
The left Warrior flank kept advancing, but the units on the right were a little more timid... They saw I had a very neat battle line assembled, complete with nice augments, and I'm sure my opponent wanted to let his shooting and magic have more of an effect before combat. I didn't really plan to oblige him on that point though, and shut down his magic phase entirely. The Hellcannon without crew rampaged aimlessly, while the other one missed harmlessly.

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Asur Turn 2
Starting to get aggressive here, the Phoenix Guard went for an average charge distance on the Chaos Knights and made it. My opponent had shuffled the Knights a bit, hoping to draw the Phoenix Guard forward where they could be engaged piecemeal, but no luck for him. Otherwise, my two Eagles flew forward into blocking positions, while the rest of my battle line redressed to prepare for more fights next turn. Magic (and an appalling amount of channeling) once again gave me a big magic phase, and I dropped the Knights to Weapon Skill 2, and my White Lions got a nice Ward Save, though Pha's was shut down.

My Archers finished off the dogs in fine fashion.

For combat, the Prince and Phoenix Guard wiped out the Chaos Knights with attacks, reforming to face the Tzeentch Warriors.

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WoC Turn 3
Here, the Tzeentch Warriors reformed to face the Phoenix Guard, while the rampaging Hellcannon barreled into the closest Eagle. The other Eagle took a chariot charge in the flank, as the chariot tried to clear out the threats in front of Throgg. The fleeing hound unit rallied its last model. My opponent once again hoped to blast a huge opening in my lines with Gateway and his stable Hellcannon, but Elven dispel contained his magic once again while the other Hellcannon misfired and lost its crew as well.

For combat, Eagles died. So sad.

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Asur Turn 3
Now for a HUGE round of combat. I had a plan for this to go in a cascading sequence, starting left to right, which would just be so fun if my plan worked. First I had to get the Spearmen and Chariot into the Marauders, White Lions into the Hellcannon, and the Phoenix Guard into the Tzeentch Warriors; all charges were successful. Here's the plan I was hoping to execute:

1) Dragon Princes into the flank of the chariot; chariot breaks, Princes overrun into flank of Marauders.
2) Princes, Spearmen and Lion Chariot break marauders; Lion Chariot overruns into Hellcannon.
3) Lion Chariot and White Lions kill Hellcannon; White Lions overrun into flank of Tzeentch Warriors.
4) White Lions and Phoenix Guard break the Tzeentch Warriors; good game.

I don't think my opponent saw it coming at all, and I was damn excited. I went for a boosted Pha's this turn (stopped with a scroll!) as well as the Ward Save on the White Lions and Miasma on the Tzeentch Warriors (dispelled with dice.) Dang.

Now for combat... The Dragon Princes nailed the chariot hard, killing it outright, and overrunning into the Marauders. So far, so good. Now for impact hits... A 3. Okay, not bad. 2 wounds. Now for all the ASF Attacks... Hmmm, alright, only 8 wounds. Was hoping for a bit more. The lions and horses were only able to do 2 more as well, all combined. 12 Wounds all told, not terrible. Now for the Marauders to retaliate; I hate Khorne Marauders! 27 Attacks, plus some from the Sorcerer... 15 wounds across the Spearmen and Lion Chariot, with the Chariot on its last wound. Ouch! I had 3 ranks, flank, charge, standard, and 12 kills, for a total of 18 combat res. My opponent had 15 wounds, two ranks and standard. Drawn combat!

Well, so much for my grand plan. Still, the White Lions took the Hellcannon down to its last wound. The Phoenix Guard, squaring off against the Warriors of Chaos, hacked down 5 of them (with the Prince's help) and didn't lose a single model in return. Unbelievable. The Warriors, outnumbered and reeling from kills, failed their break test. Their BSB was hacked down where he stood, and the whole block was run down and killed to a man! I love Phoenix Guard.

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WoC Turn 4
Brutal, but the Warriors weren't done yet. There was murder all over the board this turn, with the Trolls rear-charging the Dragon Princes, and most of both armies bogged down in combat. The Hellcannon rampaged, no magic, and it was time for combat. Throgg and company utterly massacred the Dragon Princes; it doesn't really bear thinking about, but that's a lot of puke. The Lion Chariot went down in a fight, killing a handful of Marauders before being stripped of its last wound. The Spearmen really stepped up here though; now fighting in their full four ranks, they tore a huge gap in the Marauders lines. Since the Trolls were no longer contributing their full combat res, having killed off the unit they were fighting, the Spearmen pressed the advantage and broke the Marauders. Meanwhile, the Phoenix Guard hacked down a hound, while the White Lions finished off the Hellcannon, and both units reformed to face the very-scary looking Throgg.

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Asur Turn 4
Not much left besides Throgg and a Hellcannon, but both were looking pretty scary. I dashed the Spearmen out of the way, moving my last Eagle to block off the Trolls. I set everything up for a big magic and missile phase, and while my Archers were able to drop a troll and a half, and the Trolls were heavily debuffed, Pit of Shades was dispelled with double 6s.

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WoC Turn 5
A couple of Chaos charges, with the trolls hitting the Eagle and a lurking chariot hitting my small archer unit. The Archers held on Steadfast.

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Asur Turn 5
I sent the Phoenix Guard at the Hellcannon, but rolled appallingly low. I turned the Spearmen around, and went for a big magic phase again but without much luck. I Withered the Trolls down to Toughness 2, but Pit of Shades was stopped once again. I did make the choice to give Mindrazor to my Archers; I have a soft spot for those guys, and wanted them to have a fighting chance versus the chariot. They obliged by beating the hell out of the thing.

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WoC Turn 6
My opponent had his pick of units to charge, and hit the Spearmen. My Spears fought bravely, but didn't stand much of a chance versus a puking Throgg, a Thunderstomping Hellcannon and a whole lot of trolls attacks. Even at Toughness 2, the troll Regeneration was tough to get through, and Throgg alone did 14 kills and my Spearmen were wiped out completely. Throgg and crew, having eaten their fill, trundled off the table edge. At this point, we called the game!

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I had lost:

-40 Spearmen with full command
-5 Dragon Princes with musician
-Lion Chariot
-Great Eagle
-Great Eagle
-Great Eagle

My opponent had lost:

-Level 4 with Mark of Tzeentch, Talisman of Protection, Conjoined Haemonculus, Infernal Puppet
-Level 2 with Dispel Scroll, Enchanted Shield, Lore of Fire
-Exalted with 5+ Ward, mark of Tzeentch, shield, Dragonhelm, battle standard
-40 Marauders with full command, great weapons, Mark of Khorne
-23 Tzeentch Warriors with full command, shields
-5 Hounds
-5 Hounds
-5 Chaos Knights with musician
-Chariot
-Chariot
-Hell Cannon


A big win for the Elves! It's worth mentioning that my Phoenix Guard didn't take a single casualty all game; even through a miscast result in their unit, fights versus Chaos Knights and Chaos Warriors, Exalted Champion, etc. they were just on a streak with their Ward Saves and finished the game without a single loss. I love these guys.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:50 pm 
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I will get back to your battles in due time.

For now, I want to take a look at the dual-PG setup. I found the old thread I was talking about just now - viewtopic.php?f=67&t=32653

Granted, this list plays very differently to your approach thus far. With that being said, I believe there's a solid argument for trying out a dual-PG army. You equip one with Razor Standard and put your BSB there, the other with Prince and BoS. As a starting point, this is fairly decent. Throw in an Archmage w/High or Shadow + annulian, possibly a level 2 with a support lore. Core and Rare can be pretty much anything, depending upon your style of play.

Now - you've gone from Swords + Lions to Lions + PG. Alternatives that, in my opinion, are worth trying out, include double-Lions and double-PG. From your battles, it appears that you know when you can bide your time and when you have to be on the offensive side of things. A setup with dual-PG allows you to do this very well as they can stand more of a beating vs ranged attacks than any other elite infantry (e.g. good on the offense) while they can still dish out pretty decent damage in melee (e.g. good defensively).

Combined to how your army currently plays, there are a couple of alternatives:
1. Simply swap the Lions, keep your support elements
2. Swap the Lions and drop the support elements (everything but the Eagles)

If you go for number 1, I believe there's a strong case to be made for taking High on your Archmage, and Shadow on your level 2. The character setup could be as follows:
- Prince AoC RGoH D. scroll (beasts/death)
- Archmage crystal robe (high)
- Mage seer (shadow: withering/mindrazor)

This gives you a really nice defense while having a plethora of spells to cast - both cheap (good vs miscast-heavy stuff, to draw out scroll etc), mediocre (wyssan's, withering) and expensive (mindrazor). This gives you extreme flexibility. With High on your Archmage, Vaul's can take away the scroll - making sure a decisive wyssan's / withering / mindrazor gets through when needed. It also allows you to Shield your core (somewhat unnecessary with the PG though), Courage your PG and deal damage at range. The shadow spells and wyssan's can be absolutely deadly with your PG - Wyssan's on the Razor PG unit makes me drool!

As for double-Lions - I believe these are worth trying, too. The same setup can be useful for them, though I'd swap mindrazor for enfeebling or pit (as S8 isn't that much better than S6 in general considering the casting difficulty etc).

So yeah, some food for thought here. What are your thoughts on these suggestions (double-lion, double-pg, new character set-up)?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:06 pm 
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If you are going to use PG as your main combat units exclusively, then I think the only option for the Mage Knight Prince is Beasts. You need to be able to force a situation where your PG hit like Swordmasters for those times when Str 4 really isn't cutting it (T5 ogres comes to mind immediately)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:26 pm 
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Ptolemy wrote:
If you are going to use PG as your main combat units exclusively, then I think the only option for the Mage Knight Prince is Beasts. You need to be able to force a situation where your PG hit like Swordmasters for those times when Str 4 really isn't cutting it (T5 ogres comes to mind immediately)


In my opinion, this depends on the rest of your setup and your hardest matchups.

If you have Withering + Mindrazor, I'd say that Beasts isn't necessarily as important. If you find that this type of army primarily has a hard time against tough characters then death can definitely be worth taking a look at. You could also default to metal if heavily armoured things are a problem.

In general though, I'd say Beasts or Death depending on what matchups you fear the most.

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The problem with Death these days is that depending on where your play or the Tournament Organizers mood, some people/groups have come to read the FAQ about 'unmodified leadership tests' and have erroneously applied it to be used with Spirit Leech (which is not a test at all). I have been in tournaments where the TO told me that hellcannons are LD 9 because of the crew.

Hell, just at Crossroads GT, one of my buddies cast Spirit Leech on a Grey Seer and did 3 wounds after saves. The Grey Seer player claimed that because of the Standard of Discipline, it should only be 2 wounds. The TO agreed with the Skaven player. My buddy was flummoxed. He couldn't understand how a banner that adds +1 LD could be anything but a modifier.

So....thanks to the hyperclarity of GW rules, FAQs and so on, I stay away from the Death Prince these days. Shame really.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:21 pm 
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That's terrible mate - how could anyone interpret 'unmodified' leadership as anything other than the number written in the characters profile? :?


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In the words of a great, great man...'You can't fix stupid.'

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Thanks for the feedback, all.

I think the logic being applied by Curu Olannon is sound. The only thing that concerns me is that sometimes Strength 4 simply isn't enough, and magic isn't always reliable. Dual Phoenix Guard would undoubtedly make for a very steady, hard-to-shift battle line that gives me great flexibility in both offensive and defensive settings. However, the Strength 6 of the White Lions very frequently comes into play in most of my games. Toughness Unbreakable Hellcannons are one example, Toughness 5 or 6 Ogre characters are another. While obviously magic gives me some tremendous flexibility when it comes to making Phoenix Guard hit harder, it's often useful to be able to rely on concentrated Strength 6 killing power of the White Lions + BSB to tackle the really nasty stuff.

I don't think I'm done tweaking the 2500 list yet; I'm still not completely comfortable with the absence of Lore of Light in the list, but I'm also not comfortable freeing up points in order to buy a support Level 2. I suspect I'll keep playing with my current 2500 list and see if it can muster the survivability do continue performing well.

On the topic of Spirit Leech:
Bleh, I'm so fed up with Skaven. I agree that the wording for Spirit Leech is clear; NOT a Leadership test, uses the target model's Leadership without additional bonuses, all that good stuff. However, trying to fiercely argue that point against opponents who somehow think they should be entitled to general's Leadership, Strength in Numbers, Banner of Discipline, or whatever other ridiculous modifiers can be brought into play really seems to be more trouble than it's worth. I have experimented with the Spirit Leech Prince in a cav bus, and wasn't impressed with the results. I don't particularly like the High Elf version of the cav bus, compared to (for example) the Dark Elf approach with Strength 4 Knights and Cauldron of Blood/Shadow support. A Death Prince on foot could work, but then I go back to my original concern of not having enough survivability-oriented spells in my available magic selection to help cover the fragile elements of my list.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:19 pm 
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Ogres!

I was packing:

-Prince with great weapon, Armor of Caledor, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, High Magic
-Level 4 with Annulian Crystal, Foliarath's Robe, Lore of Shadow
-BSB with great weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel
-35 Spearmen w/ fc
-12 Archers w/ musi, std, Banner of Eternal Flame
-12 Archers w/ musi, std
-24 Phoenix Guard w/ fc, Gem of Courage, Razor Standard
-21 White Lions w/ Banner of Sorcery, Ironcurse Icon
-5 Dragon Princes w/ musi
-Great Eagle
-Great Eagle

My opponent had:

-Slaughtermaster w/ Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales (I know the topic of Butchers and armor is being debated, and while I'm inclined to think the Ironfist is a weapon, my group is counting it as armor for the time being.)
-Level 2 Firebelly
-Bruiser BSB w/ heavy armor, Ironfist, Runemaw
-10 Ironguts w/ fc
-9 Bulls w/ musi, std
-Sabertusk
-Sabertusk
-Sabertusk
-4 Mournfangs w/ fc, heavy armor, ironfists
-6 Leadbelchers w/ musi
-Scraplauncher
-Ironblaster

Magic:
My Level 4 rolled double 1s, allowing me to grab Withering and Miasma. I also had Pendulum and Pit of Shades. My Prince took Shield of Saphery, as per standard.

My opponent ended up with the Stubborn, Bonecruncher (eek for my Dragon Princes!) as well as Toothcracker and Trollguts. The Fire Belly got Fireball and Sword of Rhuin.

Deployment
The center was pretty open, so I knew I would rely more on manipulating units for an advantage, rather than using terrain. I opened my deployment with the Eagles, like I usually do, and then set up a reliable firebase of Archers since they can do some decent damage versus Ogres. I knew that there was a decent chance my opponent wouldn't have too many heavy-duty combat blocks, and that they would really struggle to get through my Steadfast and Stubborn, so I was happy to set up a fairly conventional battle line so my units could provide mutual support to one another: Take the charge, hold with my unit, flank charge. Let's see if this plan works...

Image

Elf Turn 1
Rolling up first turn, not too much to do except get my Archmage within range for Pit of Shades. I also flapped an Eagle out of Ironblaster line-of-sight, hoping to save him from a cannonball for a bit and save him for later. After all was said and done, I had 11 Power Dice versus 6 Dispel Dice and had some good options. My opponent failed his initial dispel attempt on Miasma, giving me pretty free reign for casting. Miasma slowed the Mournfangs, a boosted Withering knocked the Leadbelchers down to T2, and I finished with a direct-hit Pit of Shades that killed 8 Bulls and the Fire Belly (nice!) Long-range archery slew two Leadbelchers with white-fletched arrows, and I was off to a good start.

Image

OK Turn 1
Here comes the fat pants party. Everything cruised forward, with magic resulting in 4/4 which Annulian turned into 5/3, pretty much resulting in no magic at all. The Ironblaster tried to plow a shot at my BSB, misfiring and missing out on two turns of shooting. The Scraplauncher took a shot at the Phoenix Guard, scattering off target without effect. The Leadbelchers opened up, killing a few Archers.

Image

Elf Turn 2
The Ogres were coming in quick, but I didn't have any good charges in the center. I had three goals in this turn:

1) Insulate the White Lions from the Ironguts. I was okay with the Spearmen and Phoenix Guard taking that charge, since they could hold pretty easily with Steadfast. The White Lions, would take a massive beating, and even if they held on Stubborn, I was worried they would get wiped out if they had to fight Ironguts unsupported for multiple runs of combat. To prevent this, I shifted the Eagle in front of the White Lions. If the Ogres wanted the White Lions, they would have to hit the Eagle, overrun into the Lions, wait until my turn before getting to swing, and during that turn I could flank them with Phoenix Guard and fight a combined combat.

2) My second goal this turn was to get the Spearmen into a tempting position, to lure in either the Ironguts or be ready to jump into the Mournfangs and prevent that major devastating charge of theirs. The Spears have enough ranks to hold comfortably against the Ironguts, and if I could hold the Mournfangs in place then the Spearmen could tarpit them comfortably.

3) Jam up the fast-moving elements on the right side. The Eagle and Dragon Princes had a good opportunity here.

So I shifted the Spearmen, moved the Eagle to block the White Lions, and charged the Sabertusk on the right with both the Dragon Princes and the Eagle. An overrun with the Dragon Princes would clip the Mournfang, pinning them in the Ogre turn and preventing them from charging my center blocks. The Eagle would overrun into the Ironblaster, holding it in place in the Ogre player's turn and preventing it from getting into the middle fight as well. The Ogre player knew that fleeing with the Sabertusk would simply allow me to redirect and possibly double-team the Ironblaster, so he took the charge with the Sabertusk

A light magic phase. Magic saw me roll Snake Eyes to cast the Ward Save on the White Lions, but I dropped the Mournfangs down to WS1.

The Archers put a bit more pressure on the Leadbelchers.

In combat, my plan with the Dragon Princes ended up being moot because the Sabertusk survived all my attacks and killed a Dragon Prince. The reduced frontage on the Princes meant they would no longer clip the Mournfangs, so the Princes pursued the Sabertusk through the gap between the Mournfangs and Ironblaster to get behind the Ogre lines. The Eagle overran as planned and hit the Ironblaster.

Image

OK Turn 2
With the Mournfangs free to charge, they barreled into the Spearmen. I think my opponent was hoping to take out my Level 4. The last Bull hit my Eagle in the flank, hoping to overrun into the Phoenix Guard and pin them. The Ironguts hit the Eagle to the front, ready to paste it and overrun into the White Lions.

Magic was a wash for my opponent again; a 6-dice attempt at Trollguts didn't go off with IF, and I took care of it with double 6s.

The Leadbelchers opened up with a pretty scary 17 shots, murdering the Archers down to 3 models. The Scraplauncher took a shot at the Phoenix Guard, misfiring and exploding.

In combat, the Ironguts beat down the Eagle. The lone Bull failed to reach my Phoenix Guard, which was perfect for me. The Ironguts hit the White Lions. My poor Eagle was beat down by the Ironblaster, but the Eagle served its purpose of keeping the Ironblaster away from my Spearmen. The Mournfangs did some heavy damage, with me managing a wound while the big cats killed two ranks of Elves. Miasma was big here, alnd so was the ethereal AM, completely blocking off the attacks of one Mournfang who was corner-to-corner. I held on Steadfast, nice and easy.

Image

Elf Turn 3
The Phoenix Guard charged the last Bull, the Dragon Princes turned around. My opponent stopped the 5+ Ward on the White Lions, but couldn't shut down Miasma on the Mournfangs. My Archers took out a Sabertusk, not wanting it to redirect or interfere with my overruns. Combat ran its course... My Prince beat three wounds off the Slaughtermaster in a challenge, the Phoenix Guard did 4 wounds, the White Lions did 6, I lost a rank of White Lions to all those high-Strength hits. I won by a solid margin, but my opponent managed to pass his break test and the combat would roll for one more round. The Spearmen took another beating from the Mournfangs, but they needed 5+ to hit again which kept my Spearmen from bleeding casualties too quickly and I held on Steadfast.

Image

OK Turn 3
My opponent needed some luck here. The Ironblaster went for a long charge on my Spearmen, hoping to hit their flank and help get through that Steadfast quicker, but failed their charge. A Sabertusk hit the flank of my archer unit, which I had seen coming but I was pretty confident in Steadfast. Ogre magic was totally inconsequential again... All dice thrown at Regen, no Irresistible Force, and I dispelled with double 6s.

Combat was bone-crunching... My Spearmen and the Mournfangs kept it up, with my Spears unable to scratch the Mournfangs but not taking too much damage in return thanks to Miasma. My Prince won his challenge and scored some overkill, the Phoenix Guard tore up the Ironguts nicely, and the White Lions finished off the Bruiser while racking up some kills on the remaining Guts. The surviving Ironguts broke, I pursued with both my blocks, and the Phoenix Guard hit the flank of the Mournfangs. The lone Sabertusk was able to take down my Archers though, doing two wounds and taking none in return. My Archers failed Steadfast and got run down.

Image

Elf Turn 4
This was, in essence, the last turn. The Dragon Princes hit the rear of the Ironblaster, and my Phoenix Guard and Spearmen were brawling with the Mournfangs. The Leadbelchers were panicked and sent fleeing. The Phoenix Guard, Prince and Spearmen were able to tear up a Mournfang, winning the combat and managing to run them down as well. The Dragon Princes fought well against the Ironblaster, sending it fleeing and running it down as well. My opponent called the game at this point.

Image

I had lost:

-12 Archers w/ musi, std (Sabertusked in the flank!)
-Great Eagle (sacrificed to Ironguts)
-Great Eagle (sacrificed to the Ironblaster)

My opponent had lost:

-Slaughtermaster w/ Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales (hacked down by my Prince)
-Level 2 Firebelly (Pit of Shaded!)
-Bruiser BSB w/ heavy armor, Ironfist, Runemaw (dismantled by White Lion Axes)
-10 Ironguts w/ fc (run down by the Phoenix Guard)
-9 Bulls w/ musi, std (Pit of Shaded, then run over by Phoenix Guard
-Sabertusk (run down by Dragon Princes)
-Sabertusk (shot full of arrows)
-4 Mournfangs w/ fc, heavy armor, ironfists (flanked by Phoenix Guard)
-Scraplauncher (blown up by misfire)
-Ironblaster (rear charged by Dragon Princes)

A big win for the High Elves!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:09 pm 
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Thanks for all the reports, Tethlis. Indeed, it is a good thing to have them in one topic. As to the last game, you made it look so easy :) Did you miss Light mage much? It seems like Miasma and good rolling to make Mournfangs WS 1 was a game winner. Not forgetting that first turn Pit of course.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:41 pm 
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Nice win against the Ogres. Some thoughts...

- Your opponent made MANY critical errors on various turns.
He never fully utilized his Sabretusks to redirect your units.
He spent round after round pouring shots into archers when he should have been shooting the Phoenix Guard (Str 4 armor piercing is as good as it will get for chipping away at PG) or Eagles. He also deployed them in a poor position as they were situated opposite your weak flank.
His Mournfangs were never going to get out of that spear combat. He should have saw that coming and simply acted sooner to assign them another task.
No Hellheart :shock:
~I'm also completely unconvinced that the Ogre Lore should be taken by the Level 4. I think Ogre magic is much weaker in this book because they can't spam cast anymore.

Naturally, you exploited all of these beautifully. Cheers!

In his defense, the loss of the Bull Unit was a big blow to his plans.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:03 am 
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Thanks for the comments, gents.

@Swordmaster of Hoeth:
Yes, I do miss Lore of Light, but probably not enough to make room for a Light mage. I liked the unit variety and unit size of all the different elements I have in this list, so I'll continue to work with it until I encounter a really major shortcoming that needs to be addressed. Granted, Ogres are pretty easy to shut down via Shadow; one Miasma and the vast majority of their army suddenly needs 5+ to hit our troops. That's major.

@Ptolemy:
Yes, I wanted to post this report up to chart my experiences, but I can't really take much credit for how this game unfolded. I think my opponent is still really struggling to see how to create major opportunities with Ogres, and I really didn't find myself working hard to try and arrange the key matchups required in order to turn this into a win. Granted, it's very intimidating to see all those big models across the table, but Ogres are an army who can be hamstrung very easily if their general isn't a complete master at manipulating the movement phase. I was worried when I saw those Sabertusks on the grass during deployment, but they never ended up serving their most crucial role. I like to think my Archers could have helped handle them if my opponent had used them in a stronger redirecting capacity, but since I never really saw him making those aggressive sacrificial moves with the Sabertusks, I didn't find myself worrying. I think this particular opponent will probably sharpen up after this game, but there's no question that they could have been/should have been used better. I see it as a sharp example of a player who is taking an internet build without properly understanding how it's actually used.

For the Hellheart; I keep expecting it to make an appearance, but I think there's some concern that any magic user carrying it isn't going to be able to buy enough survivability to function if he's also packing the Hellheart. I don't think I agree here, but for the time being, I'm not complaining that my opponent's aren't taking it.

On the topic of Ogre magic in general, I do agree that Ogre magic suffers because it's one more race that can't generate additional Power Dice. They can stack a lot of casting bonuses, if they choose to, but most Ogre players I've seen so far are relying on 6-dicing a big augment (Trollguts being a favorite) and simply dealing with the miscast results if they occur. It's a much, much less subtle approach than the spamming in the last armybook, and while I'm not sure that another lore would be better for a Slaughtermaster to take, I do think there's an inherent weakness in their magic that new Ogre generals are struggling to come to grips with.

For the Mournfangs, they probably would have been better served as two separate units. A unit of 4 is a heavy duty combat block, but when an opponent's packing the Runemaw on his primary Deathstar, Mournfangs are going to be catching every hex on the table. Making them two different units not only makes them a more dangerous flanking force, but also means they're harder to suppress with Lore of Shadow or the like. I am pleased with forcing their hand with the Spearmen; charge or be charged, and have to deal with a ton of Steadfast either way.

My High Elves are starting to get some mutters and glares among my local group; they're used to my Dark Elves, and are used to slinging the usual snide overpowered comments at them, but they're unaccustomed to High Elves. My recent success is generating more comments about High Elves being "OP", so I may have to do an army swap with some of these guys. I think they'll shut up a bit if I beat them with their own armies, and it will also be nice to gauge my own units from the perspective of being an opponent. We'll see though; I'd rather just have some games with my own army, without comments of what's "overpowered" or "underpowered" coming into question all the time.

More alarmingly, I'm starting to see similar mutterings in the broader tournament scene here on the West Coast. I'm hearing a lot of complaining about High Elves, which is disheartening because I plan to make High Elves my primary tournament army for 2012 (for quite a while, it's been Dark Elves). We, as High Elf generals, are aware of the liabilities of our own army in a take-all-comers environment, and I want to focus more intently on using my High Elves because I like the challenge and grow tired of the constant nagging/complaining that accompanies my Dark Elves. If High Elves are going to be lumped in with tougher lists for the purposes of comp and matchups though, then that's going to be deeply annoying.


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Hi Tethlis!

A couple of more questions if you don't mind. :)

1. Why Talisman of Endurance? If I am not mistaken it is 5+ ward save and 30 points, you can have Guardian Phoenix for 25. Might not be much but sometimes this is exactly what you need too.

2. Did you add standards for Archers due to possibility of playing different scenarios from the rulebook at tournaments or are there additional reasons (apart from Banner of Eternal Flame as this one is kind of obvious)

3. When you make a summary of loses it looks like you lost almost nothing in your games (the one against Empire being an exception). How many models, however, did you lose and was it anytime close to actually losing the unit? If you don't then it is even more impressive!

4. I am not surprised people in your area consider HE powerful now but I don't quite understand why is it so for bigger community. I also would not like this leading to the situation when tournament organizers start limiting HE options even further. Any particular reasons for that? Apart form the fact that some people playing HE after long time of trying different set ups came up with lists which work for them and as they are good generals they use them with success?

5. Any scheduled battles for nearby future? :) You have posted a lot of interesting battles already but it seems you have a chance to fight a nice variety of foes and it is always interesting to find out if there is going to be a tougher challenge for you and your army than we have seen so far. :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:53 am 
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I have to echo Swordmaster here, why not Guardian Phoenix and the Luckstone on the BSB?

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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
1. Why Talisman of Endurance? If I am not mistaken it is 5+ ward save and 30 points, you can have Guardian Phoenix for 25. Might not be much but sometimes this is exactly what you need too.


You're quite right. That's just an oversight on my part, as I was building the list from memory rather than with my armybook in front of me. A good adjustment.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
2. Did you add standards for Archers due to possibility of playing different scenarios from the rulebook at tournaments or are there additional reasons (apart from Banner of Eternal Flame as this one is kind of obvious)


My Archers frequently end up in combat, to serve a variety of purposes. Sometimes they flank, sometimes they redirect, or sometimes they have to fight off backline harassers like Gutter Runners or Shades. In all of these situations, I like having the standards present. I don't lose that much if the standard is claimed by the enemy, but sometimes that extra point of combat resolution can make a noticeable difference. It also adds stability if I'm playing in random scenarios, as you mentioned. It also looks good on the table!

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
3. When you make a summary of loses it looks like you lost almost nothing in your games (the one against Empire being an exception). How many models, however, did you lose and was it anytime close to actually losing the unit? If you don't then it is even more impressive!


In this particular game, I lost about 8 White Lions, 1 Dragon Prince, 4 Phoenix Guard, a total of 21 Archers (12 from one unit, 9 from the other), two Eagles and ~15 Spearmen. So the Archers and Eagles were pummeled pretty hard, but everything else managed to stay above half.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
4. I am not surprised people in your area consider HE powerful now but I don't quite understand why is it so for bigger community. I also would not like this leading to the situation when tournament organizers start limiting HE options even further. Any particular reasons for that? Apart form the fact that some people playing HE after long time of trying different set ups came up with lists which work for them and as they are good generals they use them with success?


Most West Coast U.S. tournament events I've been to impose very little in the way of formalized restrictions (i.e. they're not big on banning certain items, giving bonus points to weaker armybooks, etc.) but they do still take composition into account. Generally they identify "power" lists, and either ask players to revise their list if they feel it's too over the top, or else pair them with similarly powerful lists for the opening rounds of the game and deduct points from their overall score based on how strong the list is. My hope is that High Elves would fall into the middle-range as far as comp matchups go here, but if event organizers are still going to throw me into the shark tank with the tougher matchups then I may as well just go all-out in terms of power level and at least have a better chance of having the tools I need to win the tougher fights. I think the dislike here just stems from ASF, and good magic; many believe that both are just too strong in the hands of High Elves, and want to take steps to limit how effective it is. Of course, we already pay through the nose for those abilities anyway, so adding further penalties is redundant...

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
5. Any scheduled battles for nearby future? :) You have posted a lot of interesting battles already but it seems you have a chance to fight a nice variety of foes and it is always interesting to find out if there is going to be a tougher challenge for you and your army than we have seen so far. :)


I suspect Empire, Dwarves or Vamp Counts are the most likely matchups for this weekend, but Greenskins, Tomb Kings and Lizardmen are possible also. I'll probably take a little break from Warriors of Chaos and Ogre Kingdoms opponents though; I've gotten a good workout against them in the past few weeks because those generals are trying to polish their lists for an upcoming event. I'd like a bit more variety though.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:57 pm 
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About Ogres....

It seems like alot of new Ogre bandwagon jumpers (my buddy included) are cutting and pasting lists from the net and wondering why its working so badly. For what its worth, I tried a DP Cavalry bus list against a cut and paste Ogre list and tabled my opponent.

Biggest Ogre weakness is, ironically, Panic. The army is so small that it has to spread out quite a bit to avoid being overwhelmed on all sides (and to not get in its own way). Its very easy to trigger panics up and down the Ogre flanks


As for the gripers....its the old issue with 8th ed HEs. When you put aside Teclis and the Book, there are two remaining gripes about HEs...

1) Rerolls to Hit due to ASF

2) Banner of Sorcery


These things absolutely drive people bonkers the first few times they face it. What they don't realize is how essential these are to HEs even being competitive at all. Remove the two of them and we are overpriced, underprotected troops that are going to get monkey stomped game in/game out. Our magic with the banner and no book/teclis is hardly dominating. Superior, certainly but not dominating. ASF rerolls is a necessity or Step Up and supporting attacks will murder us game in and game out. We won't win combat by the huge margins we need to in order to keep unit coherency in check.

Competent Tournament Organizers who understand the tourney scene and follow results in major GTs know that HEs are a mid to upper mid tier army in a tournament setting. Don't let the gripes bother you, people will figure it out for themselves when you go 5-0 in a tournament and still fail to place higher than 3rd due to the number of victory points you had to sacrifice to complete your victories.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:12 am 
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Hi Ptolemy!

Still hoping for some highlights from that battle of yours :) Did the beasty Prince help much?

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:32 pm 
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Don't want to hijack Tethlis' blog of all things.

It was a fairly big non event. I tabled him rather easily. His magic accomplished nothing. Point in fact, the only charge he even got off (besides Eagles) was his Thundertusk in my spears (who subsequently killed it over 3 rounds of CC (good dice on my part combined with Shield of Thorns). Cavalry smashed everything they touched. Beast Prince never got Wildform off once. My opponent prioritized it for dispel. Boring list (for me) and boring game.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:23 pm 
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Ptolemy wrote:
Don't want to hijack Tethlis' blog of all things.


Hey, by all means, I wouldn't consider an account of your experiences to be hijacking at all!

Great feedback on the topic of our tournament competitiveness, by the way. We came up with some good discussion in that other thread about the overall state of High Elves in 8th edition, and you undoubtedly hit the nail on the head as far as problems and drawbacks are concerned. I'll have to see... I think I'll be reaching out to tournament organizers far in advance of the event, engaging them in a dialogue about the criteria they're using to evaluate armies, and make a case for my own perspective if I happen to be worried about how they comp.

On the topic of your battle report, were you pleased with the heavier cavalry approach? Obviously it turned out well for you, but do you think it would hold up well in a take-all-comers environment where you were taking that kind of bus against different opponents? Ogres, for all their speed, have strong advantages versus other infantry-heavy lists. However, when they're the ones being outmaneuvered, I think they take a big hit in terms of their overall effectiveness. I suspect that Elven cavalry really highlights that?

If I were to try my hands at a radically different playstyle, I suspect that multiple heavy cavalry blocks would be the one.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:10 am 
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Well, for one, Seredain is right (duh) that Silver Helms are the way to go. With two characters in the front rank I was basically paying 30 points a model for 3 extra attacks, Dragon Armor and a point of WS. Pretty wasteful in my mind. I would definitely change that.

Could it work in an all comers list? My vote is a definite maybe. The problem is that Strength 5 is still subpar. Unlike Swordmasters, you don't have a gallon of attacks. Unlike White Lions, you aren't at Str 6. Unlike PG, you don't have the benefit of Ranks and 4+ wards to ensure that you can fight any foe.

I know my local scene and I know that deployment would be the whole game with an unit like this. If you end up charging a ranked up unit of deep/cheap core, forget it. You are stuck till the cows come home.

So....I'm sure people could make it work. I don't think it will be me though.

Ogres are great against other infantry armies because they are 3 wounds each. That means even if you get in a brutal number of wounds (say...12 from a WL attack) they are only losing 4 models. Add in stomps and impact hits and they can dish out a beating in CC. Against my cavalry unit, he was just screwed from deployment. He knew it. He said it turn 2. He tried to take out my Eagles but couldn't (I had 3). That left me free to isolate his very few number of units and pick him apart.

Ogres are in severe risk of being completely out deployed due to their low model drop count. Even using lone Sabretusks to control deploy is risky since killing them is easy and Ogre leadership is very average.

Multiple cavalry blocks might work, but I would be tempted to bring the one bus and maybe two support Lion Chariots instead.

I'm actually far more intrigued by the idea of running a competitive Eagle Prince. Not sure how I would do it just yet or what the list would look like, but a list with 6 eagles (4 rares, 1 prince, 1 noble) just sounds like giggles.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:21 am 
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Good to know... With the current strengths of infantry, it seems hard to argue with the approach our army has been taking. While I do think that cavalry have a tremendously powerful niche in 8th edition, including busses/proper combat units, I'm not sure it's an approach I have the skill to pull off with High Elves. I just don't have enough faith that Strength 3 can get anything done, and I also don't expect any combat to be over in a single round, which means lance-armed troops who are Strength 3 as base just don't seem worth investing heavily in. I guess a nice hard-hitting prince can help that equation, but I have my doubts. I find that S4, Armor Piercing on the Phoenix Guard is JUST enough to qualify as a decent kill-generating unit, and it's certainly not a terrific one. Lion Chariots as backup are an interesting concept, but I guess the effectiveness of Lion Chariots is its own topic of conversation. An Eagle Prince though... If only I weren't so afraid of cannons and stonethrowers.

Yeah, I had an interesting thought with regard to Ironguts the other day. I've been breaking down a lot of different enemy units into a points-per-wound capacity, and when you break down Ironguts using that concept, it yields some interesting results. Similarly, an attacks-per-wound analysis also reveals some pretty interesting insight. If you were to convert Ogres into single infantry, rather than monstrous infantry, they would be roughly 14 points-per model for a Movement 6, Strength 4, Toughness 4, Fear Causing, great weapon-armed infantry model that causes Fear, has heavy armor, decent base Leadership, and can impact hit and thunderstomp. Reminds me of Grave Guard in a fight, but faster and stompier...

Not that this breakdown means THAT much, but it can help assess one's likelihood of a favorable combat if all those weird monstrous infantry models can be converted into terms that are easier to relate to.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:45 am 
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Agree about the cavalry. With all the killing blowers out there, flyers having the movement advantage, undead with vanhels and whatnot it's simply too many situations where S3 isn't enough. The successful cavalry busses usually has 1 or 2 rock hard characters and frequently sport riders with S4+.

As for the Ironguts-analysis - do they have thunderstomp? Cool comparison though :)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:06 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
As for the Ironguts-analysis - do they have thunderstomp? Cool comparison though :)


Stomp, you know what I meant :wink:


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