Ogre Wars Part 4 updated 2011_10_21

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Ogre Wars Part 4 updated 2011_10_21

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

I had a chance to play against new Ogres and I was really glad to do so. I read the new army book carefully and I must say that now this army looks very interesting, at least from the point of view of variety of choices. I still don't like the concept of fat brutes with bad hygene habits, though. :) It is always interesting to be able to play against the new army and check how it works now even if I have never played against Ogres before. We also played 2500 points so I could add something extra since previously I used to play with slightly smaller force of 2400 points. However, I made some changes anyway as I also wanted to test some new things.

Pre-battle thoughts

It was difficult for me to anticipate what kind of army in particular I am going to face. It is a new one and at the moment it seems it has a nice variety of options to choose from. It is a very new force for my opponent as well who is usually playing with Skaven and recently has experimented with Orcs and Goblins. What to expect?

Well, I am definitely going to face a lot of multi-wound creatures with T4, 5 or even 6. But not with that much armour. I expected some form of chariot-artillery which would be too tough for my usual war machines hunters to deal with. I also expected some heavy hitters, probably with some tough and nasty characters. Units which are very dangerous on the charge so it was very important not to let them do that. On the other hand I could try to weaken them a little before the combat, hopefully decreasing their ranks number so at least their impact hits would not be that painful. Although S4 is still a problem for elven infantry. I also expected some kind of shooting in addition to chariot-artillery. Maneaters or Leadbelchers if not both. In terms of magic I was very concerned with Hell Heart as I still don't know how to deal with that threat. I decided that I have to live with it and if I am lucky I will survive it and probably will lose just one magic phase.

With that in mind my plan was as follows:

1. Deploy in refused flank and slow down biggest combat unit as long as possible with support troops.
2. Shoot and use Light magic to inflict as much casualties as possible on the unit I intend to fight against and protect my own units with Pha's Protection. I have found out I can often have this spell cast as my opponent prefers to save his dispell dice against Banishment.
3. Send Prince with his heavy cavalry to deal with war machines and cautiously approach with infantry. Hopefully Prince can deal with his targets quickly and then support infantry which should charge weakened units of the enemy.

Army Lists

Ogres
We played with secret lists so I do not know all the items which where present in the army.

Tyrant
Sloughtermaster
BSB
Firebelly with Hellheart

3 x 10 Gnoblars with Trapers
8 Ironguts with Full Command
4 Mournfangs with Great Weapons
4 Maneaters, Sniper, Poison, one maneater with great weapon, the rest with brace of pistols
2 x Scraplauncher
Iroblaster

High Elves

Prince on Barde Steed, Heavy Armour, Dragon Helm, Vembrances of Defence, Foe Bane
Archmage, level 4, Light Magic, with Folariath's Robe and Annulian Crystal
BSB with great weapon, Armour of Caledor and Dawnstone
Mage, level 2, Light Magic, with Ring of Fury

30 Spearelves, Full Command, Standard of Discipline
2 x 13 Archers, Light Armour, Muscian
9 Silver Helms, Full Command
5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Bows, Spears
Great Eagle

Deployment

Image
Armies ready for battle

Tyrant, Sloughtermaster and BSB joined Ironguts, while Firebelly joined Maneaters. Sloughtermaster had Spinemarrow, Bonecrusher, Trollgut and The Maw. Firebelly had Fire Ball and Fulminating Cage.

Archmage and BSB went with Spearelves, Mage joined Swordmasters and Prince as usual was among his heavy cavalry bodyguards. Archmage had Shem's Buring Gaze, Pha's Protection, Speed of Light and Banishment. Level 2 had Shem's Burning Gaze and Birona's Timewarp.

Ellyrian Reavers moved forward with their vanguard move. Ogres won the roll-off and took first turn.

Ogres Turn 1
Image
Steady advance

All units moved forward although not at full speed yet. Magic focused on range attacks and both spellcasters tried to inflict some damage with their magic missiles. Then in the shooting phase artillery opened fire. One scraplauncher shot at Spearelves while Ironblaster and second Scraplauncher targeted Silver Helms. Elven Prince failed his "Look out! Sir!" roll but was saved by his ward save. In the end, magic and shooting infliced damage in many elven units. Ellyrian Reavers and Dragon Princes lost only one warrior each, with more casualties among Spearelves and Silver Helms.

High Elves Turn 1
Image
Elves move cautiously

Ellyrian Reavers and Eagle position themselves to block Ironguts and hopefully make them charge. If they charged they would both flee and slow down the enemy. Reavers could then rally and keep harassing the enemy further. At the beginning of the magic phase Firebelly used his Hellheart. Fortunately for Archmage he was one inch too far but level 2 had to test for a miscast and as a result forgot all his spells. The Archmage tried to cast some spells and managed to create an aura of protection around Spearelves and Swordmasters. In the shooting phase Archers and Reavers shot at Mournfang and managed to kill one of the Ogre cavalrymen but the rest of the unit passed panic test.

Ogres Turn 2
Image
Ogre leaders get blood thirsty

Sloghtermaster charged alone from the unit and chased down the Reavers who were not fast enough to escape and were destroyed. Tyrant tried the same against the Eagle but it managed to flee away. The rest of the unit wheeled slightly towards the centre. Other units moved forward steadily. In the magic phase Sloughtermaster and Firebelly again used their magic missiles. Sloughtermaster aimed at Archers and Firebelly at Swordmasters and both killed a few elves. In the shooting phase ironblaster aimed at elven Prince again but something went terribly wrong and the cannon misfired. The enormous detonation destroyed it on the spot but also killed one Maneater, wounded Scraplouncher and half of the unit of Gnoblars. Who panicked and fled. Not disturbed by this Scraplaunchers aimed at Silver Helms and 3 more knights were unhorsed (that pesky killing blow was really annoying :evil: ).

HE Turn 2
Image
Elven advance continues

Elven Prince and his companions charge Scraplauncher. The rest of the army, with an exception of the Archers, moves shifts towards the flank. Great Eagle flees towards the safety of elven infantry. Magic and shooting kill one more Mournfang but they are still not impressed. The Prince and Silver Helms manage to inflict only a single wound against Scraplauncher but win combat and it flees. Elves restrain and reform facing towards the enemy in the centre.

Ogres Turn 3
Image
Ogres attack but not successfuly

Sloughtermaster encouraged by the previous charge attacks the Archers who stand and shoot and manage to inflict 2 wounds on the Ogre. Mournfangs decide it is time to attack as well but could not make it against Swordmasters. Fleeing Scraplauncher does not rally and flees the battle. Firebelly moves on his own while Maneaters reform to face elven knights. The rest of the army wheels towards the centre. Winds of Magic are very weak this turn and Sloughermaster could summon enough strength for a single spell but his attempt to cast Trollguts is stopped by the Archmage. In the shooting phase Scraplauncher again targets Silver Helms and after the combat in previous turn and shooting this turn only champion from the entire unit remains alive. The combat is a great surprise as Archers manage to kill Sloughtermaster inflicting three more wounds in hand to hand!

High Elves Turn 3
Image
High Elves break the flank of their enemy

Dragon Princes charge Gnoblars avoiding the traps. Prince and his only companion charge Maneaters. Swordmasters attempt to counter-charge Mournfangs but this time they fall short. In that situation Spearelves back a little and prepare for a charge next turn. The eagle rallies. Despite unsuccessful I have a plan to survive inevitable charge of Ogres next turn.

I managed to get 12 power dice against 5 dispel dice due to channeling and Banner of Sorcery. I intended to draw all dispel dice with a threat of Ring of Fury and Banishment and then cast two spells wich affect units in 12". Speed of Light means that all Ogres with WS4 would hit my elves, now with WS10 on 5+. I wanted to add Pha's Protection to add -1 to hit as well and then they would hit my tropps on 6's only. I proceeded with my plan. The Ring was dispelled but the Banishment was not (failed to dispel). With second Light Mage nearby the effect was devastating and two remaining Mournfangs were destroyed. My opponent had no dispel dice left and I had 7. I thought my plan is going to work but ... I failed to cast Pha's Protection on 12+ with 3 dice :( Thus my magic phase ended and I had to deal with the fact that next turn Ironguts are going to charge and that attack will be devastating.

In the shooting phase Archers killed one Irongut. Dragon Princes decimated Gnoblars and overrun into Maneaters. They fought bravely, killing the last of Silver Helms and 2 Dragon Princes but lost combat, fled and were run down by the Prince. Two remaining Dragon Knights reformed. The flank was cleared but at high cost and not in time to be ready to attack Ironguts together with the infantry.

Ogres Turn 4
Image
Ogres strike back ... or not?

Tyrant charges Archers to avenge his Sloughtermaster. Ironguts with BSB decided to charge Swordmasters who held. Shooting and magic had no effect this time. Archers, despite losing a few among them, managed to wound Tyrant and held being steadfast. In the meantime the bloodiest combat of the game errupted. Impact hits killed 3 Swordmasters who hit with such precision that no less than 4 Ogre lied dead in a blink of an eye. BSB and 3 remaining Ironguts killed 9 Swordmasters in return and ... lost the combat! They passed their break test but that was definitely unexpected.

High Elves Turn 4
Image
Final push by High Elves

Dragon Princes attack Firebelly while Archers charge Gnoblars who flee quickly enough to avoid being cought. Spearelves charge the flank of the Ironguts. This time Archmage manages to cast both Pha's Protection and Speed of Light. As there was no shooting we proceeded to combat. Dragon Princes could not kill Firebelly and only thanks to their dragon armour their champion survived. Archers kept fighting Ogre Tyrant. Ogre BSB issued a challenge and Archmage accepted. Thanks to magical robes he could not be wounded with mundane weapon and Ogre BSB was really frustrated when he could not even hit skinny elf. Elven BSB and remaining Swordmasters finished the Ironguts. Lone BSB didn't pass his breaktest and was destroyed.

At this moment my oponent conceded as he had no army to continue his fight.

After-game thoughts

On Ogres
I must admit I was a little surprised by this army list when I found out that Tyrant and Sloughermaster had no magical items at all. I think it was a mistake. It is difficult for Ogre players to include both for such points allowance so I guess one has to choose carefully. After that battle I have a few comments about his actions (which I have already discussed with him but I hope he can explain his choices and decisions here again :)).

1. The army list would benefit if he chose Tyrant or Sloughtermaster but not both. He could equip one properly and use points to get more units.

2. He was too cautious and should have advanced more aggressively. His charge with both characters slowed him down. He could charge with one and redirect the charge to get rid of both Ellyrians and Eagle. Although I admit that the loss of Sloughtermaster was very unlucky.

3. I think that Spearelves were a better target for Ironguts. I had no chance to kill 4 of them and I would be lucky to get rid of 2 before they would hit back. And with so many S6 attacks I don't think enough elves would survive to remain steadfast. There were so many points tied in that unit that it would swing the balance in his favour. I also expected that he would wipe out Swordmasters and held only to inflict enough casualties to be able to deal with them later. This is a very dangerous unit on its own and obviously even more with addition of powerful characters.

4. I am not sure about Great Weapons for Mournfangs. I know he wanted to make this list as an all-comers one and against Elves S6 is not that necessary. But he suffered due to lower armour save and in the end didn't make it to the combat.

Other comments

There were a few things I wanted to try this game and although I am glad to win there are still things I think I could do better.

1. I really like Light Magic and the set up I have. I was obviously lucky not to lose both wizards to Hellheart and I still need to think how to deal with that item. But I really like the flexibility that lore gives. I didn't use it to the full because I deployed my units too far away and I positioned my archmage on the wrong flank to affect more units than Spearelves and Swordmasters. I could even run him solo provided he was not visible to Ogre spell casters. I actually consider keeping him at the back a little so Hellheart bearer would need to close to him further and be in the range of my cavalry. That costed me the life of heavy cavalry which melted away much quicker than I would like it to.

2. I am really glad I started to use ward save on my Prince as I fail that "Look out! Sir!" roll way too often. I am still not decided how to equip him in terms of attacking abilities. Foe Bane is a nice item but if the target has better save than 5+ then it is likely he can save it. Then if I were to equip him with Great Weapon his armour gets lower. And S6 might not be that effective against T5 and more. Potion of Strength could be an option here.

3. I think my biggest mistake was to keep Archmage and BSB with Spearelves when they were awaiting Ironguts charge. I should have moved them wither completely away so that if I were to lose a unit it would be "only" a unit. Or even move them both to Swordmasters. Thanks to that I could inflict even more casualties and maybe even receive less punishment.

4. In general Ogres are going to be difficult oponent for my Elves and I predict much closer battles when we meet next time.

Thanks for reading!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

Nice report as usual Swordmaster!

It seemed like your opponent was still getting to grips with the new book. I tend to agree with you on his Lord choices. I know the Tyrant is a powerful fighter but he had several of those so maybe could have done without. He was a bit unlucky with the Ironblaster and losing the Slaughtermaster as you say. I too thought he should have charged your Spears. If he'd won combat but you had held would you have had a flank charge on with the Swordmasters?

That said, I liked your flank attack with the Prince's unit. Didn't the Swordmasters do well! How many did you have, incidentally? The GW Mournfangs seemed a little bit fragile, considering how much they cost, maybe Ironfists would have been a better idea. Maybe that was about an average result with the Hellheart. A strong item but not unplayable I think. Certainly your magic was still good afterwards whereas the loss of his Lvl4 was disastrous.

Well played!

:)
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres

#3 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

People fear Sword Masters for a reason, you clearly demonstrated that reason. Congratulations on the win. I often skip the bows on the Reavers because I doubt they'd do much, but they can help. Getting run down with swiftstride that was unlucky ^_^'
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres

#4 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for comments! :)

@SpellArcher
He is learning fast so I expect next battle (hopefully soon) will be much more tense. I think HE will have a tough time against Ogres in general because of the better movement (unless you have cavalry), impact hits, being able to hit hard even after receiving the charge (Ironguts in particular) and some other things which mitigate our own strengths (Hellheart, Thundertusk etc.). There are many choices he has in the army list and I know he wants to check different options but I expect the following:
- Leabelchers
- Big monster, probably Thundertusk due to ASL
- No Tyrant and better protected Sloughtermaster
- possibly Sabertusks
- Mournfangs with Ironfists

The flank attack made sense in my opinion as I expected big unit in the center. I have noticed that when people build some kind of a Deathstar they usually place it in the middle to be able to get to any place quicker. I could not defeat them in frontal charge so I had to encircle them :) Unfortunately I took many casualties because of that as I was out of range for Pha's Protection.

@Tiralya
Swordmasters are indeed deadly. I had initially 14 of them with Bladelord and Standard. 11 entered combat and 3 died due to impact hits. So 8 Swordmasters killed 4 Ogres (but one was already wounded). My opponent rolled below average with his Ironguts so that is why he killed too few to wipe out the unit and lost combat. But I am under no illusion it can happen every time :) Re-rolls are crucial as always so I do expect that Thundertusk nearby to cancel that.

With ER I made a mistake of positioning them closer than 6" away from the unit. If I am 6" then I simply need to roll more than he does so with Swiftstride I have good chances to do so. It is actually worth remembering to position light cavalry no closer than the enemy movement value.

Cheers!
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

Yeah I agree about the problems, Impact Hits are more of an issue now and are always bad for us. Thundertusk is a pain but I think cavalry could help here as it's harder to get it in the right place against them. I kind of expect the odd miscast anyway so Hellheart isn't as frightening as it might be. It does tend to shut down that magic phase though.

Maybe I'm being too conservative but I believe 'M+2 and a bit' is a good distance for Reavers to sit. So against M6 Ogres I'd sit just over 8" away. Ok he gets a 7" move but that's a lot less than his 12" march and he is very unlikely to catch you.

This is one reason why I believe Reavers work best when you've got heavy cavalry also. In an infantry list you may not be buying enough time with the Reavers. With a heavy cavalry wing though, that 5" the Reavers just bought you can be enough for your own attack to go through and return to make a difference in the centre.
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres

#6 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

Just a short report from the second battle against the Ogres because - it was a very short battle. First, the army lists:

Ogres

Slaughter master 4th level lore of death (dispel , 5 + ward, ironfist)
Bruiser (ironfist, 4+ ward, warrior bane)
butcher level 1 (hellheart, lore of maw, great weapon)
10 ironguts with full command and standard of discipline

50 gnoblars with trappers

4 x mournfangs with h.armour, ironfists, full command and dragonhide banner

sabretusk
sabretusk
Thundertusk
2x scrappie

3 maneaters with scout , stubborn , h. armour, command and brace of pistols

High Elves

Prince with Heavy Armour, barded Steed, Shield, Dragon Helm, Foe Bane, Vembrances and Talisman of Loec
Archmage - level 4, Folariath's Robe, Staff of Solidity

BSB, GW, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone
Mage - level 1, Annulian Crystal
Mage - level 1, Jewel of the Dusk

All wizards have Light magic

30 Spears, FC, Standard of Discipline
13 Archers, Light Armour, M
13 Archers, Light Armour, M

13 Swordmasters, FC, Banner of Sorcery
5 Ellyrian Reavers, bows, spears
5 Dragon princes, Musician
9 Silver Helms, FC

Great Eagle

If you want me I can provide a map with deployment if you want to make any comments on that. Below I will follow with summary of main events which took part in firt turn (the whole game lasted 1.5 turn! :shock: )

HE Turn 1

Magic: Archmage casts Pha's Protection as an area spell and ... miscasts. Staff of Solidity saves him. He then rolls Banishment and ... miscasts again. In the confusion that created I targeted Scraplauncher but rolled only 5 hits and wounded it only twice despite S6. As a result each mage is wounded and remaining power dice are lost.

Shooting: Archers kill Sabretusk. Thundertusk panic (too far away from BSB, does not rally next turn). Scraplauncher panics (too far away from General, failed despite re-roll) and flees from the battle.

Ogre Turn 1

Charges: Mournfangs fail their charge against Silver helms. Needed 11, rolled 5,5,5.

Magic: Slaughtermaster casts The Caress of Laniph and ... miscasts. Inflict only a single wound on Archmage. And then is sucked into Realm of Chaos.

HE Turn 2

Charges: Silver Helms with Prince charge Mournfangs, Dragon Princes charge Maneaters who fail to infilct any wound as stand and shoot (they missed in their shooting phase too)

Combat: Mournfangs lose one of their numbers, champion was challenged by Prince and no wounds were inflicted on either side. Remaoing two mournfangs fail to wound silver helms (zero wounds due to very poor to hit rolls and very good saves!). Mournfangs break and flee.

At this stage my opponent conceded.

Comments
Despite the fact he made a very crucial mistake in deployment and was not in the range of general and/or BSB for the panic tests he was extremely unlucky. He should have placed his sabertusks 7" away from any unit to prevent panic tests at all. In any case it was definitely too much.

It is quite a lesson however, first - try to force as many panic tests as possible, especially when some unit is away from general and bsb. Second - even with losing a big monster and machine-chariot Ogres are very powerful and can punch hard. This time he would benefit better from Mournfangs with GW. I guess it is a matter of the role they are going to play in particular army then.

So the re-match was not good at all. We hoped to have a much more entertaining game for us and for battle report. Not this time I guess. But I am sure big lads are going to come back :)

Cheers!
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres - updated with battle 2

#7 Post by Prince of Spires »

I think the panic tests are one of the bigger weaknesses of the OK and especially things like sabretusks etc. You can't have everything in range of your general and/or BSB all the time. And quite a few of their troops have below average LD. This means that inflicting as many LD tests as possible on them can be very effective (as you've shown).

I find that as HE we don't care too much about LD tests. Even GE have a LD of 7 (which means that you pass more often than not). But, especially against the smaller OK units it can be very effective.

It is also one of the reasons GE are better than the sabretusks IMHO. When anoying your opponent away from your general / bsb, there is a big chance they don't get to march etc.

Thanks for the report anyway. It just shows how battles sometimes go. I'm sure we've all have it at some point. I once had a match where my opponent conceded after my turn one. I charged one of his two big units (with a bsb in it), won combat, he failed his rerollable steadfast breaktest, I ran him down and doing that paniced his other big unit with his general in it. It is also why armies that don't rely on LD make more reliable armies.

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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres - updated with battle 2

#8 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi rdghuizing!

Average or below average Ld of OK is indeed their weakness but then with few units they usually have (I do not count such as sabertusks, gnoblars and even chariot-war machines) they can form a very solid battle line, very difficult to take apart. This is what I was really concerned with, especially if Thundertusk would give its frost aura to any unit fighting against it or units nearby. I will try to create a map for deployment later to show what mistakes he made and how he could improve that.

Even with Ld8 and better (Great Eagle has Ld8 too :)) it might be a problem sometimes. I have found it out on many occasions when my light cavalry or other unit was away from BSB. You cannot give that re-roll to everybody but then careful positioning of the troops is important for all armies, not only OK :)

It is indeed very frustrating for both sides when dice behave like that. The game is not enjoyable at all. I just hope all the unlucky rolls were used up this time and next battle will be much more interesting. :)
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres - updated with battle 2

#9 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

As promised I present the deployment of both armies with Ellyrians after their vanguard move.

Image

I have made a mistake and forgot about Maneaters but fortunately Dragon Princes handled that problem. As you can see even changing positions of Slaughtermaster and BSB slightly in the unit would help to pass these panic tests. Better still I would position his Thundertusk between Ironguts and Mournfangs and Sabertusk as far right as possible. Then he would have a very solid battle line.

Feel free to comment on the deployment of both armies :)

Cheers!
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres - updated with battle 2

#10 Post by Original Dragon Prince »

I'm noticing the fact that your combined arms force seems to match up well against ogres. Using fast elements to mess with their crucial movement phase may prove to be the best tactic to stop their overwhelming force. If this turns out to be true, cavalry as a whole might see a resurgence in the metagame. This could lead to a very different tournament scene then the lvl 4/deathstar spam we currently have.
Last edited by Original Dragon Prince on Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres - updated with battle 2

#11 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Original Dragon Prince!

It is yet too early to claim that for sure as we have had only two games so far and he is still experimenting with different choices. However, there must be something about the heavy cavalry as he told me that next time he is going to use two units of Mournfangs just to cope with the speed of my knights :)

It would be great if people started using more varied armies also on tournaments and I am glad I can at least give some reason to re-think current approach. And I am always happy to discuss possibilities further :) In the case of Ogres it is in particular important as they are the new army with some rules which make our army wide abilities less powerful than usual.

Cheers!
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres - updated with battle 2

#12 Post by SpellArcher »

The problem of Leadership for Panic tests is a good point. This is also why Reavers are good for us IMHO, high Ld to rally reliably.

I got the impression that armies with cavalry did Ok at the ETC.
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres - updated with battle 2

#13 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I know there were some VC with cavalry deathstar type of the unit and a single DE army with big COK unit and two Dreadlords in it. Any other examples?
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres - updated with battle 2

#14 Post by SpellArcher »

The Danish team had four armies with cavalry buses (HE, DE, VC, Warriors) and I believe placed 2nd.

http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 18&t=90093
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres - updated with battle 2

#15 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi SpellArcher!

On the other hand, Poland (1st) and Russia (3rd) didn't bring much cavalry. What is more Poland won against Denmark. I am not sure if it means that in tough ETC environment heavy cavalry still struggles. I would love to see more variety in all armies and I am glad even very competitive players consider knights as a viable options but maybe it is a little early to see if any type of cavalry is going to appear more regularly in 8ed. I am going to use them for sure! :)

Cheers!
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres - updated with battle 2

#16 Post by SpellArcher »

Swordmaster, did you check out this thread?

http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 43&t=91844

A bit extreme maybe but under ETC comp this deathstar seemed to eat it's way through almost anything. Some of the points made reminded me of Seredain's thread (getting into combat to avoid shooting/magic, adroit use of reforms etc.) but I don't think it would work uncomped due to Dwellers etc..

I have to say, even if I was anywhere near good enough I wouldn't try something similar. For me, much of the joy of the game is in combined arms tactics and getting the best out of units that I love, whereas these guys are there to win first and foremost. It's a different world to the kind of tourney games I end up playing.
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres - updated with battle 2

#17 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi SpellArcher!

Yes, I have already read his report. It is definitely an interesting idea to use two combat lord characters in a unit of Cold Ones. However, as you already said, it is ETC environment and it has its own rules. For starters this army is part of a team so it was not designed to fight against any other opponent. It has considerable offensive capabilities but then it is still a Deathstar approach but with cavalry.

The difference is, again as you said it, that some people try to use different models and units while I think at tournaments (by judging what army lists people field) the idea of having a huge invincible unit that rolls over everyhting is favourite one. I don't mind learning from better players but I still want to try to find my own way. I like cavalry and cavalry prince but it does not mean I want to follow the same path. I just hope it will also be a successful one :)
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Re: 2500 HE vs. Ogres - updated with battle 2

#18 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

We finally played our 3rd game yesterday. Here is a battle report.

Pre-battle considerations

Let me start with army lists and then I will follow with my plan and initial ideas for the upcoming battles.

Ogre Kingdoms

Slaughtermaster - level 4, Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales and Greedy Fist - Lore of Death
Bruiser - ironfist, 4+ ward, warrior bane
Butcher - level 1 hellheart, great weapon - Gut Lore

10 ironguts with full command and standard of discipline
3 x 10 gnoblars with trappers

4 x Mournfangs with h.armour, ironfists, full command and dragonhide banner
3 x Mournfangs with h. armout, great weapons, full command

Thundertusk
2x Scraplaunchers

I hope I got this list right as not all the items were revealed during the game and I am not sure if he changed some bits and pieces or not.

High Elves

Prince - Heavy Armour, barded Steed, Shield, Dragon Helm, Foe Bane, Vembrances and Talisman of Loec
Archmage - level 4, Folariath's Robe, Talisman of Saphery - Lore of Light
BSB, GW, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone
Mage - level 2, Annulian Crystal - Lore of Light


30 Spears, FC, Standard of Discipline
25 Archers, Light Armour, FC

13 Swordmasters, FC, Banner of Sorcery
5 Ellyrian Reavers, bows, spears
5 Dragon princes, Musician
9 Silver Helms, FC

2 x Great Eagle

I wanted to see if I can use my Archmage to challenge his characters and deny their impact on combat. Hence Talisman of Saphery. I also came back to set of 2 wizards and used saved points to get second great eagle. I also merged two units of archers into one. I wanted to see how this unit would play against OK.

My opponent army changed a little. Main difference is that there are no Maneaters but there are two Mournfangs cavalry units. I think he wanted to have something what can try and charge my cavalry before it charges his units. He also equipped his second unit with great weapons which are great against Silver Helms or Dragon Princes. He also split big unit of gnobblars into 3 small ones and didn't take sabertusks. I think it is a good decision as gnoblars are not killed that easily and they do not cause panic tests either. What is more the trappers can be very annoying and with 3 units he had more regiments and could use it as an advantage in the deployment phase.

I was glad there are no Maneaters as I could deploy in a more compact way and cover most of my units with area spells, especially Pha's Protection. I also wanted to try two things in this battle. First is double line deployment. I wanted to field my cavalry as a first line and approach aggresively, breaking through flanks or weak spots of the enemy formation. Then my infantry would follow creating a pressure on the foe as his army would be attack from the front and rear. In order to do that I wanted to try second thing, namely monster hunitng. With very large frontage of Thundertusk I wanted to charge it with my Prince and DP. He would use his Talisman of Loec and despite Frost Aura negating his ASF I would still have re-rolls to hit. With Foe Bane I would wound it on 2+ anyway and I had a good chance of inflicting 4 wounds. With DP I had a good chance of inflicting extra 2 wounds and kill the beast on the charge. Then, I could either overrun or reform to be able to charge next unit but most importantly I would get rid of that powerful and dangerous beast. Deploying in double line and in shallow formation was to make chances of hitting my units with template weapons less likely. Even with Pha's Protection he can roll 4+ on his shooters so this is just to make sure I sustain less casualties from his machines. It also had this advantage that my wizards would be further away and he would probably not risk using Hellheart that early in the battle. While at the same time I could cast my spells anyway.

Deployment

Image
Armies deployment with Ellyrian Reavers after their Vanguard move

All Ogre characters joined Ironguts. Slaughtermaster had Spirit Leech, Aspect of the Dreadknight, Soulblight, Doom and Darkness while Butcher got Toothcracker. All elven characters with an exception of Prince who joined Dragon Princes moved to Spearelves. Archmage had Shem's Burning Gaze, Pha's Protection, The Speed of Light, and Birona's Timewarp while 2nd level had Shem's Burning Gaze and Banishment.

I finished deploying first and after winning the roll-off I took the first turn.

HE Turn 1

Image
High Elves advance cautiously.

Movement:
Ellyrian Reavers move furhter to the left flank to tempt Mournfangs to charge them. Heavy cavalry moves forward a little to stay away a little more than 20" from Mournfangs on the right. Silver Helms swift refrom as well. Infantry follows just a little so that all units are withing 12" of Archmage and BSB. Eagels shift towards the left too.

Magic & Shooting:
Archmage cast Pha's Protection and there was no attempt to dispel it. Then level 2 cast banishment which was dispelled. With remaining dice Archmage cast Timewarp on SH to let them position themselves on the left flank of the enemy formation. Unfortunately Archers could not even wound the Ogres.

OK Turn 1

Image
Ogres advance in a more aggressive manner.

Charges & Movement:
Mournfangs on the left flank charged Ellyrian Reavers and ... managed to catch them! As no other charges are yet possible Ogres move forward. However, it seems that both units of Mournfangs were a little too eager to close distance to the enemy and they exposed their flanks to elven units.

Magic & Shooting:
Doom and Darkness on DP was the only spell which was cast successfully. In the shooting phase one scraplauncher was not able to shoot due to Pha's Protection but the other one overcame its effect and hit Silver Helms. It inflicted two killing blows and two additional wounds, one of which was not saved. Silver Helms have just lost 1/3 of their unit but passed panic test. Thundertusk targeted Archers with his frost sphere and killed 7! Ogre riders on top of it used their harpoon to shoot at Dragon Princes but missed.

HE Turn 2

Image
Elven cavalry charges their counterparts.

Charges & Movement:
Seeing the opportunity elven knights spurred their horses and charged both Mournfangs cavalry unit on the flanks. On the left Silver Helms and on the right Dragon Princes with Prince. I had a lot of choices for this unit in terms of who to attack and as you see I abandoned my initial plan to kill Thundertusk first. I thought I have a great chance to break Mournfangs with a flank charge, pursue and stay clear of his Ironguts and Thundertusk before I finish his cavalry and come back to attack Thundertusk later. I also considered to attack Mournfangs from the flank with Archers in addition. They would add standard, charge from the hill and extra rank to combat. In the end I decided not to, which might have been a mistake too. In the meantime Eagles blocked the path for them to advance. Spearelves move backwards too to be more than 25" from the butcher while Swordmasters shifted towards the centre.

Magic & Shooting:
As usual Pha's Protection was allowed to be cast and I think an attempt for banishment was not dispelled this time. However, I made a crucial mistake here forgetting to dispel Doom and Darkness which remained in play. Banishment and shooting saw 5 wounds inflicted on Ironguts in total.

Combat:
Silver Helms killed one Ogre rider and suffered no casualties in return (very poor rolls to hit from Mournfang and Ogre rider).They broke and cought their enemy in pursuit. I was thinking here about restraining but decided it was better to be sure and get rid of the powerful unit. On the right flank Mournfang cavaly champion challenged my Prince who declined. If I accepted only a challenge would be resolved and my attacks wasted. With Foe Bane it would be difficult to inflict many casualties on heavily armoured foe. Dragon Princes killed one rider and didn't suffer any casualty in return. However, Mournfangs passed their break test on a re-roll! They needed a 3 and got it! Now it is a very bad situation for elven Prince and his Knights.

OK Turn 2

Image
Ogres countercharge.

Charges & Movement:
In my decision to attack Mournfangs I overlooked the Scraplauncher and it now charged the flank of my cavalry. Thundertusk attacked an eagle in front of it. The rest of the army moved forward. The butcher sprinted out of his unit eager to deliver Hellheart as quickly as possible.

Magic & Shooting:
In the magic phase Soulblight was cast on Dragon Princes and I again didn't dispel Doom and Drakness :( Shooting had no effect this time as other Scraplauncher missed Silver Helms.

Combat:
Thundertusk easily destroyed great eagle. Scraplauncher had to direct all its hits against the Prince (this time Mournfang champion declined the challenge) and inflicted no wounds on him (with other attacks either). The Prince wounded the Scraplauncher only once and Mournfang killed a single Dragon Prince. Elves lost combat and due to Doom and Darkness broke and were run down. A very bad outcome for warriors of Ulthuan.

HE Turn 3

Image
High Elves fight back as the situation looks grim for them (red arrows indicate Ogre units which pursued or overruned previous turn)

Charges & Movement:
Spearelves charged pursuing Morunfangs. I chose to do so because I could challenge with archmage and negate champions attacks and inflict wounds with BSB. With 2 standards, charge and a rank I should easily win the combat and hopefully destroy that tough cavalry and have a chance to fight back. Swordmasters didn't attack the butcher yet and moved to his flank. That would prevent the charge of Ironguts too. Archers shifted to hava a better view over the battlefield. Remianing eagle blocked Thundertusk.

Magic & Shooting:
I was aware Hellheart is going to be used this time and was prepared for non-existant magic phase. However, fate had some more disastrous news for me. He rolled a 6 for range of the Hellheart so both my wizards had to see what kind of miscast is going to happen. Level 2 lost his level and one spell (banishment he kept). But the Archmage rolled 4 ... and that was followed by 1 ... damn ... :( That was very bad indeed. I lost my magical defense and my plan to destroy Mournfangs was much weaker now. Not to mention I have just given almost 400 victory points to my enemy. I really should have kept that stuff of solidity. Shooting killed an Irongut but it was far from making up for the loss of the Archmage and 7-8 Spearelves due to detonation.

Combat:
BSB killed one Mournfang but Spearelves could not inflict any wounds while being killed in return. In the end Mournfangs lost by 1 but of course passed their panic test. Spearelves reformed and BSB stayed at the corner to defend his unit against counter-attacking Scraplauncher.

OK Turn 3

Image
Ogres keep pushing against quickly melting elven lines.

Charges & Movement:
On the left flank Scraplauncher charged Silver Helms who braced for impact. Another Scraplauncher charged to help Mournfangs and Thundertusk attacked yet another eagle. Butcher run away from the sight of Swordmasters while Ironguts moved towards them. Gnoblars on the right flank prevented Archers from entering the combat nearby.

Magic & Shooting:
With enemy Archmage dead and remaining elven wizard reduced to level 1 Slaughtermaster was happy to cast more spells. He failed to kill Bladelord with Spiritleach but managed to cast Soulblight affecting all enem units in 24". Gnoblars on the right flank killed a few archer with their wicked missiles.

Combat:
On the left flank scraplauncher killed only one Silver helm and got a wound in return. Gnoblars who were riding on the top of the beast didn't like the sound of elven battle horn and fled. They were cought by pursuing knights and gnoblars who watched this from nearby also panicked. Elven BSB braced for impact and despite his magical armour and talisman he was killed by the chargin rhinox. Elves fought as best as they could but were not able to inflict much damage. They lost yet more of their numbers but remained steadfast.

HE Turn 4

Image
The battle is lost but Elves keep fighting.

Charges & Movement:
Swordmasters charged a flank of Scraplauncher. Archers reformed and Silver Helms moved to the flank of Ironguts. If only elven infantry won this combat there was a chance for fighting back a little although it would not change the fact the battle was already lost.

Magic & Shooting:
As elven wizard was in combat he was not casting any spells. Archers shot at ironguts but inflicted only a single wound.

Combat:
Swordmaster fought as hard as they could but because of the Soulblight they could not inflict enough wounds to finish scraplauncher. What is more, although Spearelves inflicted two more wounds on the beast they were both saved and it remained alive on the last wound. It then proceed to kill more elves who again could not penetrate Mournfangs armour. Elves lost but held.

OK Turn 4

Image

Charges & Movement:
Thundertusk charged exposed Swordmasters. Gnoblars blocked Archers yet again and Ironguts reformed to prevent Silver Helms to help Swordmasters.

Magic & Shooting:
I think Soulblight was cast again and then Gnoblars enjoyed shooting and killing some more elves.

Combat:
Swordmasters finished off Scraplauncher but so did Mournfangs with Spearelves. Only 5 Swordmasters remained and they held on steadfast but were not able to reform. elven mage escaped but with that combat finally lost the battle was finished and I conceded. Vicotry to ogre Kingodms! The revenge is truly theirs! :)

After-battle comments

That was a very bitter pill to swallow this time. I had to watch as my army disappears bit by bit and my desperate efforts to fight back to make the margin of defeat smaller all failed. So where did it all go wrong?

Well, I think it started with a combat against Mournfangs. I am not yet convienced what would be better but I really had to do one of two things. Either stick to my initial plan and charge Thundertusk as even if I was inlucky and didn't kill it on the charge I was not threatened with a flank charge and I think I would prevail against scraplauncher if the big beat held in the first place. Second, if I decided to abandon initial plan and riks this flank attack (which had greater benefits for longer run in my opinion) then I should have charged with archers too. If he rolled snake eye fro break test I would reform and still have a flank charge and rank bonus as well as standard to add to combat. So with prince deflecting all the attacks from scraplauncher I might even win that combat.

The biggest mistake on my part (at least as I see it) was to not dispell Doom and Darkness. It is so easy to forget about spells in play and I think I wll make some special counters to remind me about it. I also think it was a mistake to hold with infantry for so long. I could run my wizards alone to make my casualties smaller in case soemthing goes wrong. And I will definitely take that staff of solidity this time. The risk to lose the Archmage to a miscast is not of very high probablity but in the case when it does happen one has to be prepared. I wish I had a good plan on how to come back to the game even after I lost him.

I wonder if it was a good decision to charge Mournfangs with Spears. I had good chances to break them but unfortunately they didn't let it to happen. Shoudl I have sacrifice my level 2 and reformed first instead and attack butcher with Swordmasters? He rolled a 6 o it would not matter for Hellheart anyway but maybe it would place me in a better position to fight back? I would be in the same side as Silver Helms and maybe, just maybe could combine a charge against ironguts with 3 units at the same time. It is definitely difficult to think clearly after losing two main characters in short order.

My opponent made a huge mistake at the beginning of the game with his Murnfangs. On the left flank he probebly didn't expect to catch Reavers and he almost escaped Silver Helms too! On the right flank, however, it was very dangerous situation for him and if that cavalry had not managed to hold he would be in big trouble with no flanks, no fast units and surrounded by elves from all sides. After that he played very well and kept pushing forward knowing war of attrition favours his army. Death spells really helped him a lot and magical superiority just sealed the deal. With no high strength attacks I could not hold against his very tough and well armoured units. I am glad he had his revenge, especially after previous disaster but I do hope we will have yet another game and this time I will have a chance to win provided I am not going to make so many mistakes again :)

As always we are both very interested in your opinions on any aspect of the battle so feel free to post your comments and opinions. :)

Thanks for reading!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ogre Wars Part 3 updated 2011_10_08

#19 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Unlucky forgetting that scraplauncher could charge, if you had moved that eagle over a bit you could have blocked both units ^_^'
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Re: Ogre Wars Part 3 updated 2011_10_08

#20 Post by huesofblue »

Think you were really unlucky when the Mournfangs passed the rerollable Ld 3 break test, and the warp swallowed your AM :shock:

Was the Dragonhide Banner's breath attack used at all? Didn't quite see it mentioned...

Statistically, the spears stand a very poor chance of winning combat against 3-4 mournfangs - mathshammer-wise even with the BSB's attacks you wouldn't even kill 1 HA/IF mournfang on average rolls! Whereas the attacks back would bring a whole lot of pain.

Mournfangs are just fast, scary, and resilient for the point cost. Think perhaps a better strategy may have been to focus on taking down the 4 man unit via a SH/DP/prince combined charge as opposed to planning for the Thundertusk, which could have more easily been dealt with through magic/shooting. The Mournfangs (especially a unit of 4 with Dragonhide) represent an extremely fast threat which steamrolls anything in your army 1 v 1, whereas the tusk doesn't have as significant an impact.
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Re: Ogre Wars Part 3 updated 2011_10_08

#21 Post by SpellArcher »

Interesting if unfortunate game Swordmaster!

As said, two moments of rotten luck. I guess characters in small units of cavalry are always slightly risky though, as if this sort of thing happens they can be a bit vulnerable to a countercharge. Of course you weren't helped by forgetting to dispel the RIP. I did exactly the same thing in my last game against the old Ogres and yesterday made myself a 'Dispel RIP' counter!

It also seemed like a typical elf game, where things start to fall apart quickly once you are on the back foot. I agree that his use of the small Gnoblar units with Trappers was interesting. Losing your Reavers actually helped you here (as it can sometimes) but I guess the cavalry fight on your right was less crucial than the one in the centre.

So how will you modify your list in the light of this game?
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Re: Ogre Wars Part 3 updated 2011_10_08

#22 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for comments! I am glad that even the lost battle (and lost badly) can spark a nice discussion. :)
Tiralya wrote:Unlucky forgetting that scraplauncher could charge, if you had moved that eagle over a bit you could have blocked both units ^_^'
I simply need to pay more attention to "details" :). As always. It is a great asset for OK army that their warmachines are tough and can fight. Makes a very mobile army with a nice option for counter-charging as you had a chance to observe. :)
huesofblue wrote:Think you were really unlucky when the Mournfangs passed the rerollable Ld 3 break test, and the warp swallowed your AM :shock:
It is Warhammer for you :) Previous game Lady Luck was really pissed off at my opponent and then he was blown up in a very spectacular fashion. :) The good thing is that if I played it right I could still pull off a better result and who knows, maybe even draw or be close to it. That is why I wonder what action would be better. I guess here is an example of situation where you risk more to gain more. After thinking about what has happened I really should have charged with Archers. It was not that huge gamble on my part when he exposed a flank but I had a gut feeling (pun intended :)) that they might hold and that is why eagles landed so early. :)
huesofblue wrote:Was the Dragonhide Banner's breath attack used at all? Didn't quite see it mentioned...
No, I think he forgot about it. I did for sure. Otherwise he would kill my spears faster.
huesofblue wrote:Statistically, the spears stand a very poor chance of winning combat against 3-4 mournfangs - mathshammer-wise even with the BSB's attacks you wouldn't even kill 1 HA/IF mournfang on average rolls! Whereas the attacks back would bring a whole lot of pain.
You see, that is a fun part with a game that involves dice rolls. What was probablity of my archmage getting killed? What was probability of Mournfangs to hold? :) Still he died and they held. Here, however, with my plan to bind his champion and kill one Mournfang with BSB+Spears I was facing only 6 attacks back in total which hit on 4+. If my archmage was alive I would also attempt to add Pha's Protection for another -1 to hit. So I think my chances were not that bad. What is more in that particular combat when he lost by 1 he was taking break test on 6 which is not that great either :) Of course it was not the only option for me to do so maybe I should have, for example, sacrifice level 2, move him in front and reform Spears to move to the flank. Any other ideas?
huesofblue wrote:Mournfangs are just fast, scary, and resilient for the point cost. Think perhaps a better strategy may have been to focus on taking down the 4 man unit via a SH/DP/prince combined charge as opposed to planning for the Thundertusk, which could have more easily been dealt with through magic/shooting. The Mournfangs (especially a unit of 4 with Dragonhide) represent an extremely fast threat which steamrolls anything in your army 1 v 1, whereas the tusk doesn't have as significant an impact.
I disagree on the Thundertusk :) It really matters if we get these re-rolls or not and I do not have that much shooting and magic missiles to really hurt it. While S5 banishment is much better against Mournfangs. What is more my Prince is better suited to kill huge beasts with low armour save rahter than heavy cavalry. If he didn't present the opportunity to be charged in the flank I would definitely attack Thundertusk as planned initially.

Mournfangs are indeed tough and with their speed and 2+ save they are a bane of our infantry in general. But they have relatively low Ld so even with re-rolls there is a chance to break them. What is more they are less eficient against heavy cavalry although S5 hits can be painful too. In any case I had an opportunity to win bigger prize here by clearing the threat of Mournfangs while still be able to deal with Thundertusk later. Unfortunately it didn't work this time :) But myopponent said that he was lucky and if he broke then it would be completely different game :)
SpellArcher wrote:Interesting if unfortunate game Swordmaster!
As I said before this is Warhammer for you :) And such things make stuff of legends too :) I bet Ogres are talking by the campfire now how their tough Mournfangs held against elite elven cacalry :)
SpellArcher wrote:As said, two moments of rotten luck. I guess characters in small units of cavalry are always slightly risky though, as if this sort of thing happens they can be a bit vulnerable to a countercharge. Of course you weren't helped by forgetting to dispel the RIP. I did exactly the same thing in my last game against the old Ogres and yesterday made myself a 'Dispel RIP' counter!
The fact that Prince was with them was actually good as he absorbed all the impact hits and attacks from the scraplauncher. The problem was I wounded it only once (or rather he saved 2 out of 3 wounds) and then I failed break test I would pass if I remembered to dispel that damn spell :( So chain reaction of some sort. Didn't add archers, then didn't dispel the spell then broke from combat and was run down which then brought Mournfangs very close to my lines. I am glad I have these reports now as I can once more see what conseuences can be and hopefull will try to anticipate it next time. :)
SpellArcher wrote:It also seemed like a typical elf game, where things start to fall apart quickly once you are on the back foot. I agree that his use of the small Gnoblar units with Trappers was interesting. Losing your Reavers actually helped you here (as it can sometimes) but I guess the cavalry fight on your right was less crucial than the one in the centre.
Actually we didn't remember a very useful rule that when you catch fleeing enemy you can still reform provided you pass Ld test. I am sure he would present his front then and besides he almost got away too. So in that way he could destroy Reavers and still be in a good position to use his unit to threaten my lines. And charging it from the front would be a very dangerous thing as he would have 2 Mournfangs left to hit back. Which is 12 attacks in total with S5 and S6. Very risky business for only 6 Silver Helms.
SpellArcher wrote:So how will you modify your list in the light of this game?
Changing army list is something I am tempted to do as a first thing but I try to resist that urge. :) You see, the army had a good chance to win as it is, so I prefer to consider the way I could have played better first. I also talked to my opponent and he thinks my list is good as it is. So the things I am really considering changing are magic items. I missed Staff of Solidity greatly. But then my opponent told me he wants to try and play next game with their tournament rules which ban all items which affect miscasts so no Hellheart and no Staff of Solidity are allowed. I am also trying to find out a perfect gear for the Prince. Usually he is either good at killing armoured foes (Giant Blade) or tough but low armoured monsters (Foe Bane). Two things my other units struggle to deal with. The problem is he cannot do that at the same time. Giant Blade is good but will still struggle against Sphinxes or Steamtanks and even wounding on 3+ such like Thundertusks. I guess it will never be a perfect solution but I need to find out what I like the best. I tried set-ups of other generals and I might yet find out something I like too :)

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Re: Ogre Wars Part 3 updated 2011_10_08

#23 Post by Prince of Spires »

Besides forgetting to disspell D&D and the bad luck other people mentioned, there are a few other things I noticed.

Firstly, you forgot to play to the synergy in your list. The only combined charge you got was in your turn 4 when it didn't realy matter that much anymore. And that was only because your opponent forced you into a position where you had to charge in your SM to see if you could save your spears and make something of the fight.

you cavalry was out operating on its own, and if they don't manage to break their opponent on the charge, you are in trouble.

The main problem I think is the SM. They were out of position and couldn't either help your cavalry or protect their rears. If you had moved them forward further, your opponent would have been as eager to put his butcher where he did.

Another thing you could perhaps have done is to initially focus on only one of the Ogre flanks. Now you devided you strength across his army and were more or less forced to walk straight at him. Usually not a good idea against ogres with HE.

Perhaps if you had placed your SM to the right of you DP (or directly behind them), they would have been in a better position to support either your DP or at least force a decision on that flank.

Just my view ofcourse. Hope this helps a bit in developing your tactics further.

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Re: Ogre Wars Part 3 updated 2011_10_08

#24 Post by huesofblue »

True about losing rerolls due to ASL aura being irritating, and your shooting/MM wouldn't have killed the tusk fast enough. However, going for the tusk as opposed to the Mournfangs also means that you'd be letting his cavalry do to you what you aim to do to his --> move fast, crush a unit, and be on the flank (for him) to cause headaches.

There's also the risk (but it would be true whatever you went for) of cannonmobiles going for enfilading cannon shots on your cavalry if you had won versus either the fangs/tusk. Not fun, and just something to bear in mind when facing OK I suppose.


With the spear/fang combat, correct me if I'm wrong but he had no reason to accept the challenge? With 3 fangs left and a successful charge on T3/5+ infantry, he'd be looking at doing >10 wounds easily whereas statistically 3 S6 attacks and ranked spears would be insufficient to kill 1 MF on average rolls. (0.92 wounds for BSB, 1.02 wounds assuming 25 attacks from spears)
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Re: Ogre Wars Part 3 updated 2011_10_08

#25 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for comments guys! :)
rdghuizing wrote:Firstly, you forgot to play to the synergy in your list. The only combined charge you got was in your turn 4 when it didn't realy matter that much anymore. And that was only because your opponent forced you into a position where you had to charge in your SM to see if you could save your spears and make something of the fight.
I didn't forget about combined charges :) The idea, however, was to maneuver cavalry in such way that it would break through his formation and park behind his lines. If it succeeded he would be in trouble having heavy cavalry at his back and fresh infantry in the front, while I could choose what to attack. Unfortunately it didn't work this time.
rdghuizing wrote:you cavalry was out operating on its own, and if they don't manage to break their opponent on the charge, you are in trouble.
I agree it looked like it is operating on its own. The truth is that before the battle the orders were as follows: SH - break through gnoblars and hit scraplauncher then wheel and threaten the enemy from behind their lines or set up a good threatening position with the use of extended move rate due to the spell Birona's Timewarp - team up with DP. DP+Prince - break through the lines by killing Thundertusk and perform similar duty as SH and team up for even greater hitting potential (like charging one target together). He made a mistake by presenting flanks of two dangerous and fast units in his army so I chose to follow my plan by breaking through these units instead. The odds were good I can make it. I did with Silver Helms and as you see they managed to fulfill the plan. However, as DP failed to break their target, there was no other unit to team up with and to co-ordinate moves with infantry as it was already in trouble. And this is the outcome I should have anticipated as possible and then had a back-up plan.
rdghuizing wrote:The main problem I think is the SM. They were out of position and couldn't either help your cavalry or protect their rears. If you had moved them forward further, your opponent would have been as eager to put his butcher where he did.
Swordmasters were supposed to operate together with Spears even for a frontal assault. As they were too far away from the Mournfangs charged by Spears I had to spend extra turn to get them there. I admit it might have been a mistake and I would better keep them together, reform spears and sacrifice mage to divert Mournfangs.
rdghuizing wrote:Another thing you could perhaps have done is to initially focus on only one of the Ogre flanks. Now you devided you strength across his army and were more or less forced to walk straight at him. Usually not a good idea against ogres with HE.
Indeed it can work and this is usual approach. However, I wanted to try something new too, hoping to surprise my opponent as I was afraid he might got used to my refused flank tactics. He could counter such set up during deployment. But in general I agree it is viable approach for HE.
rdghuizing wrote:Perhaps if you had placed your SM to the right of you DP (or directly behind them), they would have been in a better position to support either your DP or at least force a decision on that flank.
That is an idea I will think about as a back-up plan. I wanted to draw my enemy towards my infantry but do not close the lines due to Hell heart. But that left me with no support and I really needed that. On the other hand there were still Archers with ranks and standard to provide some static resolution. You see, I lost combat by 2 only but because I had so low Ld I simply failed. With Archers on the flank of Mournfangs I was looking at additional attacks too and with his scraplauncher charge giving him only +2 to combat resolution I was still in a good shape to even win the combat!
rdghuizing wrote:Just my view ofcourse. Hope this helps a bit in developing your tactics further.

Rod
It always does as it gives me an opportunity to look at things from different angle so keep these comments coming. I hope I will have my revenge next time although I am not sure when my opponent will have time for it. But then I have time to design some useful tactics too. :) He told me he is going to field more all-comers orientated list this time. So I might see Stonehorn as he believes it is a better choice for tournament play.
huesofblue wrote:True about losing rerolls due to ASL aura being irritating, and your shooting/MM wouldn't have killed the tusk fast enough. However, going for the tusk as opposed to the Mournfangs also means that you'd be letting his cavalry do to you what you aim to do to his --> move fast, crush a unit, and be on the flank (for him) to cause headaches.
That is true that for a while Mournfangs would be free to do what they like. However, consider the fact my opponent would have faced two cavalry units behind his lines! Do you think he would ignore that? :) I think he might have had much bigger trouble then :)
huesofblue wrote:There's also the risk (but it would be true whatever you went for) of cannonmobiles going for enfilading cannon shots on your cavalry if you had won versus either the fangs/tusk. Not fun, and just something to bear in mind when facing OK I suppose.
Good thing that game was that he used scraplaunchers which are annoying for cavalry too but not that dangerous as Ironblasters who can move to have a nice flank shot through small, 5 man strong cavalry units.

huesofblue wrote:With the spear/fang combat, correct me if I'm wrong but he had no reason to accept the challenge? With 3 fangs left and a successful charge on T3/5+ infantry, he'd be looking at doing >10 wounds easily whereas statistically 3 S6 attacks and ranked spears would be insufficient to kill 1 MF on average rolls. (0.92 wounds for BSB, 1.02 wounds assuming 25 attacks from spears)
You could be right about the challenge, I do not have the rulebook with me now so I will check it later.

As to statistics ... well ... something many people like to use but I believe do not do it in a right way :)

1. I don't like fractions. We deal 1, 2 wounds or none but what does 0.92 or 1.02 really mean? :)
2. It is better to calculate the probability of inflicting at least 1 or 2 or more wounds, etc. The fact that you come up with something you call "average" does not translate into "1 wound no matter what you roll", right?
3. Even if we agreed on numbers then the same probability to achieve desired result for one is risky while for other acceptable. So I treat these calculations as a useful thing but in the end I have to decide to make that charge or not and then roll the dice. And it does not matter if the odds were low for him to withstand that particular charge (probability to get "3" on two dice is not that great, right?) because he just made it and that is in itself a good thing to sing songs about :)

I guess it is all about what would you do in the similar situation :) Maybe it was risky to make that charge but then I won so the risk payed off. Or maybe not as he still passed his break test? You can be right it was unnecessary to charge. We forgot about Dragonhide banner after all. I accept that. Now I wonder what would be a better solution so I know that in a similar situation in the future I can make it right. :) Was it better to sacrifice level 2 and redirect them? Or just reform and brace for impact and then prepare Swordmasters for counter-charge? Or maybe something I do not see at the moment at all but is still there? Feel free to add any ideas, I will definitely think how to use them. :)

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Re: Ogre Wars Part 3 updated 2011_10_08

#26 Post by Prince of Spires »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:As to statistics ... well ... something many people like to use but I believe do not do it in a right way :)

1. I don't like fractions. We deal 1, 2 wounds or none but what does 0.92 or 1.02 really mean? :)
2. It is better to calculate the probability of inflicting at least 1 or 2 or more wounds, etc. The fact that you come up with something you call "average" does not translate into "1 wound no matter what you roll", right?
3. Even if we agreed on numbers then the same probability to achieve desired result for one is risky while for other acceptable. So I treat these calculations as a useful thing but in the end I have to decide to make that charge or not and then roll the dice. And it does not matter if the odds were low for him to withstand that particular charge (probability to get "3" on two dice is not that great, right?) because he just made it and that is in itself a good thing to sing songs about :)
There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

It's nice if you have some idea about what you can expect from a given match-up, but you don't know how it turns out until you actually roll the dice. Some games you get lucky and some games you don't (like in this game). After all, the chance of him passing his LD3 test on a reroll and you failing your LD5 test is only about 12,5%. But it still happend.

As for fractions, I use them in math-hammer to get an idea of how likely it is of getting that 1 wound. Getting 1.7 wounds makes it likelier to get the one wound than getting 1.2 wounds. Its nice when actually comparing numbers in fictitious matchups. In games I generally just guestimate what the outcome will be. Variance if of course important, but a lot more difficult to calculate on the fly. Usually it just is: 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 2/6 get saved, so 1 in 12 kills => gives about X wounds (or equivalent of course).

And sometimes you have very little choice and just have to hope for the best (as was the case now I think). This changes the meaning of the numbers of course. In a normal game few people would charge the spears into the mournfangs unsupported. However, once you got into your position in this game that small chance to turn the game around seemed like a good idea. After all, the alternative was probably even worse: Wait for a turn and back off. This would have just let him set up combo charges and let him pick off as he liked. In this situation, that 5 or 10% chance of succes suddenly looks atttractive.

So risk/reward calculations are actually more usefull then the purely statistical outcome (which is why people play in loteries. The likely outcome is that of every €1 you put in you get 60ct back. However the risk/reward is such that many people will risk €20 to win a few million).

Sorry for the statistics rant...

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Re: Ogre Wars Part 3 updated 2011_10_08

#27 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

rdghuizing wrote:There are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Indeed :) Although I would not really blame statistics :)
rdghuizing wrote:It's nice if you have some idea about what you can expect from a given match-up, but you don't know how it turns out until you actually roll the dice. Some games you get lucky and some games you don't (like in this game). After all, the chance of him passing his LD3 test on a reroll and you failing your LD5 test is only about 12,5%. But it still happend.
Math-hammer is great fun. And it can be helpful too! I really liked when somebody calculated the odds of a successful charge with swiftstride. You don't need to remember the exact values, it is enough to set your personal limit and then use it in your games. So I am all good for having fun with numbers as long as I use them in a reasonable way. For me the greatest misunderstanding is when people start to use 3.5 as most probable result for a single dice roll. And then they base their whole "scientific" reasoning on that. :)
rdghuizing wrote:As for fractions, I use them in math-hammer to get an idea of how likely it is of getting that 1 wound. Getting 1.7 wounds makes it likelier to get the one wound than getting 1.2 wounds. Its nice when actually comparing numbers in fictitious matchups. In games I generally just guestimate what the outcome will be. Variance if of course important, but a lot more difficult to calculate on the fly. Usually it just is: 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 2/6 get saved, so 1 in 12 kills => gives about X wounds (or equivalent of course).
I agree that it can be useful to assess things quickly and we all often do that. I just prefer (if I have time :)) to calculate the probability of particular outcome rather than having less accurate estimation. The problem is that there are so many different situations and little factors can interplay that it often is not worthy the time and effort. :)
rdghuizing wrote:And sometimes you have very little choice and just have to hope for the best (as was the case now I think). This changes the meaning of the numbers of course. In a normal game few people would charge the spears into the mournfangs unsupported. However, once you got into your position in this game that small chance to turn the game around seemed like a good idea. After all, the alternative was probably even worse: Wait for a turn and back off. This would have just let him set up combo charges and let him pick off as he liked. In this situation, that 5 or 10% chance of succes suddenly looks atttractive.
Exactly! Add to that quite desperate need to do something and you will have a picture of how really the situation looked like. :) It is much easier to talk about probabilities and risks when you haven't just lost your general to lucky/unlucky Ld rolls and Archmage to a spectacular detonation also knowing that your suddenly leaderless infantry is going to face the whole stomping brutality of your fat foe :) And that is precisely the reason we can discuss the odds now and choose the best course of action so when things get really difficult you can quickly reach the right decision.
rdghuizing wrote:So risk/reward calculations are actually more usefull then the purely statistical outcome (which is why people play in loteries. The likely outcome is that of every €1 you put in you get 60ct back. However the risk/reward is such that many people will risk €20 to win a few million).
True but then people make their decisions based on many factors and statistics or any calculations are not necessary the first thing on their list. :)
rdghuizing wrote:Sorry for the statistics rant...

Rod
No worries! I actually enjoy that and I have no problem to discuss the outcome of the game based on different approaches. Agree or disagree, the most important thing is we have a chance to discuss it. And hope the dice will be good for us :)

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Re: Ogre Wars Part 3 updated 2011_10_08

#28 Post by Prince of Spires »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
rdghuizing wrote:There are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Indeed :) Although I would not really blame statistics :)
Neither do I. But I find many people don't understand statistics and use it wrong and the rest just abuses it.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: I agree that it can be useful to assess things quickly and we all often do that. I just prefer (if I have time :)) to calculate the probability of particular outcome rather than having less accurate estimation. The problem is that there are so many different situations and little factors can interplay that it often is not worthy the time and effort. :)
Out of curiosity, how do you (quickly) calculate the probability of a certain outcome. I can think of a few ways, but none are helpfull to me ingame.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: Exactly! Add to that quite desperate need to do something and you will have a picture of how really the situation looked like. :) It is much easier to talk about probabilities and risks when you haven't just lost your general to lucky/unlucky Ld rolls and Archmage to a spectacular detonation also knowing that your suddenly leaderless infantry is going to face the whole stomping brutality of your fat foe :) And that is precisely the reason we can discuss the odds now and choose the best course of action so when things get really difficult you can quickly reach the right decision.
I don't think I would have done anything different at this point. At some point, clear thinking goes out of the window and you just have to go for it and hope for the best. So all in all I think you actually played well, took the opportunities you were given and made few (if any) big, obvious mistakes. The plan was sound, sometimes you just find out that your soldiers forgot their weapons at home and are wearing papier-mache armour...

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Re: Ogre Wars Part 3 updated 2011_10_08

#29 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

rdghuizing wrote:Out of curiosity, how do you (quickly) calculate the probability of a certain outcome. I can think of a few ways, but none are helpfull to me ingame.
Well, if I had time to calculate that just for the sake of having fun with calculations I would always use Bernoulli distribution. of course I have no time for that during the battle (I wish I had mentat-like abilities to do so :)) so I start with establishing a refernece point which is the static combat resolution. There are sometimes situations when no sides deals any damage. If I can win that it is awlays a good start. In the example from the game where I charged Mournfangs with Dragon Princes it was only +1 for me but since Ogres are Ld 7 to start with and he was out of range of his general then I was looking at Ld 6 test with a re-roll.

As to the damage I was not calculating that really as I do not have any good idea at the moment which is not similar to the one we have already discussed. In that particular case I simply assumed I have better ods to inflict more damage than he does as I am attacking his flank with more attacks. However, I could not be so sure I can break him on the charge and I still do not know why I didn't charge with archers just to make my odds with static CR better. :?

What are your ideas for quick calculations?
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Re: Ogre Wars Part 3 updated 2011_10_08

#30 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Ogre Wars Part 4

Greetings!

We had yet another chance to play a game (I really like Universal Battles for that opportunity :)) this time with the use of Brighton Warlords rules pack: Brighton Warlords Tournament

The main thing for us from the point of view of the composition was that we were not allowed to take any item which affects miscast in any form so OK could not use Hellheart while HE did not take Staff of Solidity. Other than that my opponent wanted to test the all-comers army list instead the one he used before and which was tailored towards fighting HE.

Army Lists

Ogre Kingdoms

Slaughtermaster - level 4, Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales and Greedy Fist - Lore of the Maw
Bruiser - ironfist, Talisman of Preservation, Warrior bane
Firebelly - level 2 - Lore of Fire

10 ironguts with full command and Standard of discipline
3 x 10 gnoblars with trappers

4 Mournfangs with h.armour, ironfists, full command and Dragonhide banner
3 Mournfangs with h. armout, ironfists, full command
3 Leadblechers

Stonehorn
Scraplauncher

High Elves

Prince - Dragon Armour, barded Steed, Shield, Great Weapon Helm of Fortune, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Guardian Phoenix - High Magic
Archmage - level 4, Folariath's Robe, Ring of Corin - Lore of Light
BSB - GW, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone
Mage - level 2, Annulian Crystal - Lore of Light


30 Spears, FC, Standard of Discipline
13 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
13 Archers, Light Armour, Musician

13 Swordmasters, FC, Ironcurse Icon, Banner of Sorcery
5 Ellyrian Reavers, bows, spears, Musician
5 Dragon princes, Musician
9 Silver Helms, FC

2 x Great Eagle

Pre-battle consideration

It was the first time I was about to face Leabelchers and Stonehorn. Both units are still very good against HE, Leadbelchers having insane amount of firepower and not being static either. Stonehorn and its higher movement rate (swifstride in particular) combined with a lot og S6 impact hits was also as dangerous as anything else. There were 3 very powerful and fast elements in that army (Stonehorn+ 2 x Mournfangs) which I need to deal with somehow and would have even less time to do so. And then there was also big unit of Ironguts. I was wondering how shooting is going to hurt me this time. Only two units to do so but they still have considerable firepower to significantly reduce the numbers of squishy elves. And if required can add extra punch in combat too. This is something I really like about OK. Change of the lore from death to maw for Slaughtermaster benefited Ogres much better in my opinion. And Lore of Fire as well as combat abilities of Firebelly really added nicely to the whole picture.

Main change of my army was the euipment for Prince. Iwanted him to be more flexible and gave him great weapon. I also made him a first level mage to get access to Shield of Saphery for that always useful 5+ ward save and better chances for channeling. I was really curious if a Mage Knight would be better for my army. As I could not get Staff of Solidity I decided to have a little surprise for my opponent and include Ring of Corin. If played right it could destroy some important ward save and help me to eliminate a character in combat for example.

This time I wanted to play the usual refused flank but I was aware it would be difficult with 3 very fast units in OK army. So my plan was to delay one with the help of fast cavalry and/or eagle. And create a trap for whatever was deployed across Silver Helms with the use of an eagle again. I didn't want to create situations where I would risk receiving a charge and hope that the unit can survive the impact hits.

Respective wizards rolled following spells:

Slaughtermaster - Spinemarrow, Bullgorger, Toothcracker, Trollguts
Firebelly - Fireball, Fulminating Flame Cage

Prince - Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery
Archmage - Shem's Burning Gaze, Light of Battle, Banishment, Birona's Timewarp
Mage - Pha's Protection, The Speed of Light

Deployment

Image
Armies ready for battle

I chose the north side of the battle field as I thought that it is better for me but the house in the middle was too close to my deployment zone and I think now that I actually would do better deploying south. It would divide his forces more while I would have more space to position my units for the attack.

I must say I was very impressed by the way my opponent out-deployed me. Because I think he did better than I did. He had enough units to wait until I placed my Silver Helms (and already commited combat infantry) and then still a lot of options where to place his Ironguts. He could place them in the middle, or on the right flank as well and still have that protective bubble of LD and re-rolls from his characters. I think that positioning them in second line was also very good decision. They could not be a target for spells that easily and were ready to jump into the front to either flank if there was a need.

I felt too confined on that flank and I really don't like as I need more space for using cavalry and its speed properly. Here I was already choked a bit and I realized I will need to sacrifice some units in order to obtain more breathing space. Fortunately I won the roll off for the first turn.

As to characters positioning Slaughtermaster and Bruiser joined Ironguts forming massive 4 x 3 block while Firebelly joined Leadbelchers. HE Prince was with his bodyguard, BSB and level 2 joined Swordmasters while Archmage was with Spearelves who formed two ranks to minimize any casualties from scraplauncher.

High Elves - Turn 1

Image
High Elves move forward cautiously

After initial vanguard move of Ellyrian Reavers, the rest of Elven Cavalry moved forward a little bit staying just out of the charge range of not that distant Mournfangs. Swordmasteres followed close behind and eagles moved uickly towards right flank. Spearelves with the Archmage remained stationary and didn't change their formation just yet. Silver Helms received magical protection from Shield of Saphery but other spells were either dispelled or failed to be cast. Somehow elven wizards could not focus properly. Archers aimed at Gonoblars in front of the Leadbelchers, killed 5 and panicked the rest. Now the shooting duel between Archers and Leadblechers is going to begin for real.

Ogre Kingdoms - Turn 1

Image
Ogre steamroller rolls froward but not yet at the full speed

Ogre move forward a little bit faster than Elves but also keep tight formation. Stonehorn smelled nearby elven fast cavalry and was barely kept in check as its rider struggled to retain control over the furious beast. Fortunately for Ogres in the end it didn't chase swift elven riders and moved together with the rest of the army towards right flank. Even fleeing gnoblars find courage to rally. Winds of magic were extremely weak this time but Slaughtermaster still managed to toughen up bigger unit of Mournfang cavalry. Leablechers opened fire at Archers but realized that the ammo gnoblars provided was a piece of crap and only a one archer was dead despite all the noise, smoke and smell Leadbelchers' cannons produced. Scraplauncher aimed at Swordmasters and killed 3 as their Ironcurse Icon failed to protect them.

High Elves - Turn 2

Image
Elves try to create a trap to seize Mournfangs

At the signal of their general Elves position themselves to create a trap for Mournfangs. One eagle lands in front of the unit on the right while at the same time Silver Helms move to their flank. Swordmasters shift as well statying out of the overrun/pursuit distance and mage moves out of the unit perdicting his presence in the unit in a combat to happen soon is not required. Dragon Princes move backwards while Spearelves reform and go a little forward while staying out of the charge range of bigger Mournfang unit. Ellyrian Reavers use their speed and move out of sight of other Ogre units but stay close enough to annoy them. Pha's Protection is spread around elven units (with an exception of Dragon Princes) and Slaughtermaster fails to dispel Banishment but magic misslies do not harm heavily armoured Mournfangs. Archers and Reavers now can open fire at Leadbelchers but inflict only two wounds and Ogres will return the fire with full strenght soon.

Ogre Kingdoms - Turn 2

Image
Ogres continue their relentless but disciplined advance

Mournfang cavalry on the right flank charge the eagle, kill it and reform as this gives them time to eat the bird. The resto of the army keeps advancing in a disciplined manner. Slaughtermaster attepmted to cast Trollguts affecting all nearby units but elven Archmage dispelled that try. Meanwhile Firebelly moved to the flank of Ellyrians and breathed fire at them, killing 3 and panicking two survivors. Leadbelchers manage to kill 3 more Archers while Scraplauncher misses its target (Archers as well).

High Elves - Turn 3

Image
Silver Helms sacrifice themselves for the greater good

Elven Prince charges on his own into a flank of bigger Mournfang cavalry unit while his Knights position themselves in front of the other Mournfangs. This noble sacrifice is to open a chance for other units to destroy Ogre riders. In order to buy time for elven infantry Great Eagle lands in front of the Stonehorn while Dragon Princes, Spearelves and Swordmasters get ready for charges next turn. Elven wiazards try to make Silver Helms as resilient as possible in order to prevent utter destruction of the whoe unit and give them chance to survive upcoming carnage. They are now at -1 to hit and have 5+ ward save. The attempt to increase their WS and I to 10 was dispelled. Archers yet again open fire at Leadbelchers and this time the salvo is deadly killing two Ogres and leaving the last survivor on a single wound.

Elven Prince challenges Mournfang champion and they inflict a signle wound on each other. This results in a lost combat for High Elf but he passes his break test. If he can hold on just one more turn his troops will arrive to help him.

Ogre Kingdoms - Turn 3

Image
Ogres start pushing harder

Stonehorn attacks the eagle while Mournfangs charge Silver Helms. Fireblly is determined to finish off light cavalry and charges them too. Slaughtermaster casts Bullgorger at Mourfangs which attacked Silver Helms and Firebelly attempts to cast a Fulminating Flaming Cage at Swordmasters. In doing so he casts the spell with Irresistible Force. Resulting small detonation kills one of Ellyrians too. The Cage kills only 2 Swordmasters but it will be a problematic for them next turn when they would like to move or charge. Gnoblars, Scraplauncher and Leadbelcher kill some more Archers but they do not panic.

In combat Stonehorn tramples the eagle to the ground while Firebelly does the same to lone Ellyrian. Despite being hit on 5+ and 5+ ward save Silver Helms lost 7 knights and broke for combat. Mournfangs pursued and destroyed survivors but in doing so exposed their flank to Swordmasters. Elven Prince managed to kill his adversary in duel and to his surprise the rest of the unit broke from combat! He pursued but could not catch them jsut yet.

High Elves - Turn 4

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Elven trap didn't work the way they planned but they keep fighting

Elven Prince once again charges Mournfangs, this time catching them and panicking nearby Scraplauncher which flees just into the woods. While gnoblars struggle to just hang on on the top of their chariot frantic rhinox twists and turns among the trees almost destroying the whole machine. Swordmasters charge through the wall of fire, losing half of their numbers but hit Mournfangs into the flank. Dragon Princes follow and example of Silver Helms and sacrifice themselves to buy time for Swordmasters to finish the Mournfangs. Spearelves postion themsleves on the hill to be able to charge and pin down Stonehorn and wait for Prince to help them finish the beast off. Archmage managed to cast banishment on Stonehorn but the beast prroved to be too tough. Then he cast Timewarp on Swordmasters increasing the number of their attacks. One unit of Archers finished off the remaining Leadbelcher panicking nearby Gnoblars (they didn't rally anymore) while the other Archer unit aimed at Scraplauncher in the woods. The single wound was, however, saved by the armoured construction.

In combat between Swordmasters and Mourfnags elven BSB is challenged by Ogre champion. Elven hero inflicts 2 wounds and receives one in return. It is clear that Mournfangs lost the combat by large margin but against all odds they manage to pass their break test although with a little encouragement from their BSB. What is more they show great discipline and reform in such difficult conditions. It seems like Ogres are getting upper hand now.

Ogre Kingdoms - Turn 4

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More Elves die

Ironguts charge elven heavy cavalry in front of them. Stonehorn pulls back while Gnoblars rush forward to set their traps in case Spearelves would like to charge them. Gnoblars on top of Scraplauncher manage to easy the Rhionx with some tasty grass and while the dumb beast is chewing it they prepare to have some fun with yet more shooting. Slaughtermaster casts Toothcracker at Mournfangs and elven Archmage loses his concentration during an attempt to dispel it. His apprentice does no better and Slaughtermaster proceeds with buffing up Mournfangs with Trollgurts and Spinemarrow.

Not surprisingly Ironguts kill Dragon Princes and reform. Timewarped Swordmasters do their best but unfortunately out of many hits they inflict on the Mournfangs only single wound is inflicted. They were all butchered in return and elven BSB kept fighting alone


High Elves - Turn 5

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Elves are losing the battle but try to inflict some more damage

The Archmage, sacure in his magical robe, moves in front of Stonehorn and tries to catch its attention. Spearelves move in front of Gnoblars but do not charge them just yet as they are obstructing the path for Ironguts to attempt the charge. The Prince also moves towards the Stonehorn ready to charge it. Mage moves in between Ironguts and BSB to block them a little and hopefully give time for BSB to finish stubborn Mournfangs. As the winds of magic are low the Archmage casts banishment only on the Stonehorn but yet again fails to inflict any wounds. Archers shoot at Scraplauncher again, inflict single wound but it is saved yet one more time. In combat lone BSB locked in a duel manages to finish off Mourfang champion and actually wins combat this time but they pass their break test anyway. The cavalry reforms to bring both mournfangs to the combat and by doing so blocks the line of sight to BSB for Ironguts.

Ogre Kingdoms - Turn 5

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The battle enters its final stage

Ironguts attempt to catch elven Mage but he flees to safety. Stonehorn charges the Archmage and the rest of the army just shuffles a little. Firebelly casts the Cage on Spearelves and 5 of them dies in flames. The Slaughtermaster makes Stonehorn stubborn but it results in a Dimensional Cascade. Fortunately for him it does not drag him to the Realm of Chaos. Scraplauncher gets a direct hit in the middle of Spearelves and reduces their number significantly. Only 10 Elves remain but they pass their panic test. Archmage avoids damage thanks to his magical robe and passes his break test. BSB kills one Mournfang but the other one manages to inflict last wound and valiant hero dies.

High Elves - Turn 6

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High Elves still manage to kill some enemy

With so many casualties Elves are definitely beaten but they still had something to say. The Prince charged Stonehorn, inflicted 3 wounds and broke it despite its stubborness. With the Archmage they both pursuited and destroyed the monster. Archers made their last attempt to kill scraplauncher and this time inflicted unsaved wound but it was short by 1 to kill it.

Ogre Kingdoms - Turn 6

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Last charge does not hit home

Lone Mournfang attempts to charge Spearelves but they flee. They still suffer from the Flame Cage and only 2 survive the battle. The last attempt of Scraplauncher is not successful as it misses its target. However it does not change the fact that Ogres are victorious once again!

After-battle thoughts

It was much better than the previous game but still not enough (The result was 7 - 13). I felt I was at a disadvantage with the deployment and the more I think about it the more I would like to chose south instead. That does not change the fact that I think my opponent out-deployed me. But what should I have done differently in the similar conditions?

1. Silver Helms sacrifice - I think it was a mistake. During the battle it all seemed like a tough but right decision. They would flee, with some luck they would survive and by attacking Mournfangs from the flank with Swordmasters it would at least be good exchange. I believe charging with a Prince alone was good decision but I thought he would hold with Mournfangs long enough for Dragon Princes and Spears to charge them too. I would break them and attacked Ironguts. Then this regiment would be isolated and with the help of Swordmasters I hoped to finish them. I also wanted to use the trick with Ring of Corin then and hopefully kill the character whoever accepted the challenge with my Prince. However it didn't happen. What I could do better was to move Swrodmasters in front of Mournfangs instead (but without BSB) and move Silver Helms to the flank of Ogres further. Even with impact hits I should inflict some damage in return and still be able to countercharge next turn. Of course in my decision making in the first place I didn't anticipate Flaming Cage to be cast with IF. Then I failed to dispel other spells which all together resulted in dead Swordmasters and lost fight on that flank.

2. Spells - I failed to inflict any damage with Banishment but that was not the main problem in my opinion. I should try and cast Pha's Protection or Speed of Light on Swordmasters when I could instead. It really helps when Ogres have to roll 5+ or even 6+ to hit. The winds of magic were low and that made me decide to throw everything at banishment but I still could use the same doce for better effect. I am not sure about Mage Knight at the moment. Although I had no problem in casting Shield of Spahery I also failed to roll 5+ ward saves anyway. It does not mean the idea is bad but then I need to think if I really need it. Channeling is good though.

3. Spearelves - I didn't use them well and they simply died. However, I didn't want them too close to Ironguts and when I had to choose which enemy to fight I prefered Stonehorn. Unfortunatley for me Scraplauncher rallied and hit them hard (as did Flame Cage). If I stayed on the hill but in a way that Mournfangs would block the path for Ironguts too I would be in a position to help Sordmasters. but then I would not be able to avoid Ironguts and I had not enough resources to beat that unit.

4. Deplpyment - I have discussed it many times but there is something I observed. Because of Light Magic I tend to group my combat units together and I think it is very predictable for my opponent where my units are going to be as soon as I place Spearelves. I guess I need to re-think this properly as deployment is crucial for that game and I believe it was up the hill in this particular situation due to my poor and his very good deployment.

I hope you enjoyed the report anyway. Thanks for reading! :)
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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