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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:06 am 
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Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Chaos Warriors vs. High Elves

So going in to this match, I made it my goal to keep in mind the common criticism I had of my last match: my movement phases were too chaotic. My goal was to think about every move I made this game and make sure it was going to further my goal, and if it wasn't, then why was I doing it? How effective I was at this is open to interpretation :P

I took the same army as my last battle report, in an attempt to eliminate army list from the equation, and focus completely on using things effectively.

High Elves:

Archmage, Forliath's Robes, Talisman of Saphery, Silver Wand, Level 4, Shadow Magic
(Miasma, Enfeebling Foe, Withering, Pit of Shades, Okkam's Mindrazor)
Mage, Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Metal Magic
(Searing Doom, Plague of Rust)
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Armour of Caledor, Great Weapon, Dawnstone

14 x Archers, Musician
11 x Archers, Musician

35 x Spearmen, Full Command

14 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame
12 x Swordmasters, Bladelord
20 x Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery
5 x Dragon Princes
1 Lion Chariot
2 x Great Eagle

Warriors of Chaos
Chaos Lord, Mark of Tzeentch, Stream of Corruption, Chaos Armour, Great Weapon, Trickster's Helm, Talisman of Preservation, Disc of Tzeentch
BSB, Book of Secrets, and some other stuff?
(Miasma)
Mage, Level 2, Lore of Slaneesh, Third Eye of Tzeentch
(Lash of Slaneesh, Ecstatic Seizures)
Mage, Level 2, Lore of Slaneesh, Spell Familiar
(Lash of Slaneesh, Hellshriek, Titillating Delusions

**Equipment may not be eactly as shown**

26 Chaos Warriors, Hand Weapon + Shield, Mark of Tzeentch
40 Marauders, Hand Weapon + Shield, Mark of Tzeentch
5 Chaos Warhounds
5 Chaos Warhounds
5 Chaos Warhounds

6 Chaos Knights
2 Chaos Chariots

1 Hellcannon

Deployment

Image

The Warriors had a lot of low commitment drops, so I tried to mitigate this by dropping the easily re-deployable eagles first, then the bigger block of archers in the middle - this kept my options open without revealing my plan. Once the two chariots were down and he still hadn't committed to a flank, I dropped my Dragon Princes on the far right. He dropped his big block of Marauders, at which point I decided to counter hard on the left flank with my heavy hitters.

I tried to keep my BSB central, because he was going to be integral in making sure I didn't lose any units unexpectedly to that miserable hellcannon.

Turn 1

High Elves

Lo and behold I managed to win first turn for the second game in a row - a luxury I'm not often afforded. I don't question my luck and take it.

Image

I move the Dragon princes up between the two forests to threaten any unit that got too bold in advancing. Hopefully I'd also leave that block of Marauders stranded on that far flank. God knows I didn't know yet how I planned on dealing with them...

The swordmasters move up centrally, and the unit of archers move up 5" in order to get in range of the metal spells. The spearmen stay put for the time being, and on the left flank I begin my advance with the white lions. I needed to put some pressure on that hellcannon and my dragon princes were once again on the wrong side of the battlefield.

Magic phase I roll 4 and 5, and the banner gives me 2 power dice. 11 versus 5. I start off with a miasma on his marauders, in an attempt to slow them down further, and keep that flank from crumbling. I roll a 1 for the stat reduction. I follow that up with a plague of rust on the Chaos Knights (-1 AS), then fail an attempt with my archmage at Enfeebling Foe (powered up for range)

Shooting is unsuccessful at killing anything, and thus my turn ends.

Chaos Warriors

Image

His Dogs issue a charge versus my eagle, and I like Frederico's odds (I've named my eagles affectionately at this point). He holds. His big unit of marauders announces a charge on my eagle which flees and they advance 4 inches.

His two other units of warhounds move up to intercept potential chargers, and his chariots roll into what I like to call the High Elf "Oh @#$%" zone.

Magic ends up being 6 v 5 after the annullian crystal, and he throws all 6 at Ecstatic Seizures, but I manage to dispel with my +5 and 5 dice. Phew!

He scores a direct hit on my white lions with the hellcannon, but their lion cloaks ensure that only 5 die.

My eagle kills a dog in combat, but they charged, so we tie.

Turn 2

High Elves

Image

I had a choice to make - I could charge the dogs in the middle with my swordmasters, and potentially overrun into the chariots... but I saw what his plan was. Flee with the dogs, and leave my swordmasters with their pants (dresses?) down, ready to get charged by two chariots. Strength 5 impact hits? No thanks. They move back enough to make the charge from the chariots improbable, and the white lions continue their march forward, inching just out of view of the chariots.

Like the Swordmasters, the Dragon Princes see his Chaos Lord approach and know a bad fight when they see one. They back up 4 inches to also make a charge difficult.

Magic ends up being 9 vs 5, and the metal mage starts off with another plague of rust on the knights and is successful - they're down to a 3+ armour save at this point. Next comes a searing doom at his lord, which he is unsuccessful at dispelling. 4 hits result in two wounds, at which time he reveals that he has a 3+ ward save... that promptly betrays him with 2 2's.

The archmage tries enfeebling foe again, and once again fails on 3 dice, ending the magic phase. His friends nickname him "Bubba" at this point.

The big unit of archers shoot at the dogs in front of the chariot, and manage to kill 4. Cool. The remaining one takes its panic test and fails. Really Cool. It runs through the two chariots and forces panic tests. Mega Cool. One of the chariots fails his panic test on a reroll and flees off the board. Catastrophically Cool. The other archers put some wounds on the dogs midfield.

The eagle manages to kill two more dogs, and they flee from combat. He pursues forward, but not enough to get in combat with the hellcannon.

Warriors of Chaos

Image

Charges - The dogs midfield charge the still fleeing eagle, who is forced to flee and forces panic tests on the spearmen and chariot. They both pass.

His lord declares a charge on the dragon princes, as well as the marauders. They flee, and the lord redirects to the Lion Chariot who holds - I think there's a good chance I can put that final wound on him. Doesn't matter, because he fails his charge and comes out from behind his safety wall.

Magic is 6 v 5 again, and he starts with a Seizures on the Phoenix Guard. Bubba dispels that. He then attempts a Titillating Delusions on the White Lions, but fails to meet the casting value.

Hellcannon misses, and all units are once again out of combat.

Turn 3

High Elves

Image

The Lion Chariot issues a charge declaration on the knights of chaos, but they aren't excited about the idea given their rusted out armour. They flee from the charge, and the chariot redirects into the lord. Between impact hits, S6 white lions and actual lions, I figure I'm good for one wound. Right?

The fleeing troops rally, and my Phoenix Guard move up into charge range of the chariot - either he charges or gets charged, I'm good with that on the PG.

Magic is 10 v 6, so I start in on the lord to make sure I take that combat. First off the bat is an enfeebling foe on the lord, which gets dispelled. Next comes miasma to reduce his initiative and get my two rerolls to hit with the big S6 attacks. I get it, and roll a 1 for the reduction. Have I ever rolled anything but 1 for that??

Plague of Rust follows suit, reducing him to a 3+/3+, and the chariot takes a wound from a 1 hit searing doom.

One unit of archers kills the remaining warhound midfield, and the other unit tries in vain to put a wound on the chariot. Despite their failure, they still high 5 each other over that dog incident.

In combat, the lion chariot does 4 impact hits... and whiffs them all. Then the white lions swing... and whiff too. Then the lions swing as well and bounce off his armour, not to mention his ward save. He returns the favour by smashing the chariot to bits and turns to face the flank of the archers (the picture doesn't represent this quite right. D'oh!

Warriors of Chaos

Image

The Chaos lord successfully charges the archers on a long charge (5 attacks from the chaos lord and 1 disc, I think to myself, he can't break steadfast), and the hellcannon charges the white lions ("Its day of reckoning has arrived!" I think to myself). One of his mages charges my eagle running disruption, which also holds.

Boxcars for the magic phase, which ends up being 11 v 7. He attempts a Titillating Delusions on my Phoenix Guard, but I dispel it - I can't have my plans being foiled by ADD soldiers! He successfully casts miasma on the white lions for -3 WS and dispells enfeebling foe on his lord.

In combat, the white lions do a big ole 5 wounds to the hellcannon. I start doing my hellcannon destruction dance, when I am informed that you randomize hits versus the crew even in combat, and I watch in grim fascination as the hellcannon does 8 wounds including his thunderstomp. One lone White Lion fails his stubborn test and gets mauled by the daemon as he flees. His friends are too horrified to even give him a nickname...

The lord starts unleashing on the archers, killing 5 with his attacks and missing with his disc. He then reveals to me that his lord has stream of corruption, and I die a bit more inside. That is until his 7 hits roll not a single dice over 4. The archers hold on steadfast, and we move on to my turn.

Turn 4

High Elves

Image

Not one to look a gift horse in the mouth, I announce a charge on the chaos lord with my spearmen. The Phoenix Guard charge the chariot, and the swordmasters move up behind the cover of the Great Eagle. The Dragon Princes loop back around the forest.

Magic phase, I attempt to reduce the toughness of the lord with enfeebling foe (1...), and his initiative with miasma, which I finally manage to get more than 1 for. He's now at toughness 4 and Initiative 5, giving me my rerolls.

Doesn't matter, though, because the elves fail to do a single wound to him. Luckily he has a bad round of combat versus the archers, and only managed to kill 3. This leaves him with a flank charge, and a standard bearer to contend with, and he breaks from combat. His big roll of 10 puts him right in front of my swordmasters, and the spearmen and archers follow suit, but fail to catch him. Darn.

The Phoenix Guard put two wounds on the chariot, and it puts two back on them in return. It holds.

Warriors of Chaos

Image

The knights of chaos charge the eagle fighting the mage (I forgot to mention them, but they just made faces at each other anyway), and the warriors can't make the wheel to hit the phoenix guard in the flank due to the eagle, so they charge the eagle to clear it out instead.

The Marauders reform and move towards the center, and the lord rallies, ready to face the swordmasters.

His magic phase, he dispels the enfeebling foe on his lord and I dispel his casting attempts.

He shoots the hellcannon at the unit containing the metal mage and scores a direct hit on the mage's head. The shot clears out the remaining archers, but he rolls a 1 to wound on the mage - score!

In combat, the Phoenix Guard finish off the chariot, and opt to reform for a flank charge on the warriors, as opposed to setting up to take the mage and knights.

The eagle manages to survive the onslaught of the warriors, but flees from combat. Due to the lord's presence in the middle of the action, the warriors stop in their tracks.


Turn 5

High Elves

Image

The swordmasters charge the lord, and the phoenix guard and spearmen charge the big block of warriors, and the stage is set for the final battle.

The metal mage, angered by the hellcannon killing his bodyguard, launches a searing doom at it and manages 5 hits, 4 of which wound. The hellcannon melts in a ball of molten goo, and Bubba fails once again to do anything effective with his dice.

I opt to resolve the combat with the swordmasters first. They manage to score 3 hits... and one of them manages to sneak past that ridiculous ward save! I immediately start breakdancing.

The swordmasters overrun into the combat with the warriors, and the elves manage to do 7 wounds to the warriors, with the archmage nullifying the BSB. The chaos warriors answer by doing 4 wounds in return, but lose combat significantly. The Warriors break, and after seeing my wicked dance moves, he conceeds the battle.

After Battle Thoughts

Him dropping those marauders on the flank was huge for me. He seemed to have a fixation on my unit of 5 Dragon Princes, and I happily indulged it by dancing around that table edge. As much as I would have liked to have had them on the other flank to hit that hellcannon quicker, 150 points to keep a 40 strong unit dancing around all game is a good tradeoff in my eyes.

The Metal mage really came into his own this game, overshadowing the Archmage in most phases. Plague of Rust was a lot more useful than I originally though, and not just for the obvious reason; it made his normally borderline foolhardy knights very very timid. Even though that Lion Chariot blew up, the threat of it put those knights essentially out of the game, so again, well worth the 140 points.

I wasn't expecting things to line up *quite* so well at the end. I expected an overrun from the chaos warriors into my spearmen after killing my eagle, then a surround maybe on turn 6, but when that lord fled right in the perfect spot to charge through, everything just seemed to work out.

As always, I'd love to hear your thoughts, comments or criticism. Just go easy on the last one, I have feelings too... :P

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:22 am 
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Nice win, thanks for the report!

First off - I love your dancemoves ;)

I believe you outdeployed him here, which really helped you. Also, he played way too defensively. Basically you got the same kind of setup I've used a couple of times - one where your elite units can smash him hard from the side of his main battle force. Very hard to cope with when you've awkwardly deployed your horde on the wrong side.

So, onto the battle: your eagles played very aggressively, if you'd have held them back for 1 turn (e.g. advancing 10" instead of 20" on T1) you could've used them to redirect and disrupt him a lot in T2. Granted, one of them wiped out the Hounds but in essense this neutralized this eagle in your T2.

In turn 3 you could've advanced with your main infantry instead of staying put. Movement-wise you dictated the western flank at this point so you wanted him to charge you. By casting okkam's on your spears for example he'd basically be left with a very hard choice - Charge S8 elves or be combocharged. Neither option sounds good. As it turned out, you got a similarly good situation later on so this didn't matter too much. Even if you wouldn't have gotten okkam's off they'd still probably be steadfast - waiting for your elites to follow up.

I'm 99% sure the 3+ ward item his lord had only applies to shooting. It's a fairly common item but as far as I know no item gives you a plain 3+ ward against everything.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Hey Curu, thanks for the reply!

Quote:
I believe you outdeployed him here, which really helped you. Also, he played way too defensively. Basically you got the same kind of setup I've used a couple of times - one where your elite units can smash him hard from the side of his main battle force. Very hard to cope with when you've awkwardly deployed your horde on the wrong side.


I knew I'd have a tough time dealing with a huge block of warriors combined with that block of marauders, so I focused my deployment on hopefully splitting those two forces up. One thing I forgot about with big blocks like that is that they lose steadfast if they happen to go into a forest. On Turn 5, I had an opportunity to make a long charge against them while they were traversing through the forest midfield, and I think that the odds are actually pretty good that I could have broken that big block with just my dragon princes.

Quote:
So, onto the battle: your eagles played very aggressively, if you'd have held them back for 1 turn (e.g. advancing 10" instead of 20" on T1) you could've used them to redirect and disrupt him a lot in T2. Granted, one of them wiped out the Hounds but in essense this neutralized this eagle in your T2.


You're right, that first charge with the dogs caught me a bit by surprise; I didn't think he had the angle to see it, but after we looked at it, he actually could see part of the model. This was one of those matches where things just seemed to work out for me, because that same eagle ended up getting in combat with the mage, and eventually causing the rallied Chaos Knights to get held up by that very mage after charging the eagle. I take no credit for how well this turned out. :P

Quote:
In turn 3 you could've advanced with your main infantry instead of staying put. Movement-wise you dictated the western flank at this point so you wanted him to charge you. By casting okkam's on your spears for example he'd basically be left with a very hard choice - Charge S8 elves or be combocharged. Neither option sounds good. As it turned out, you got a similarly good situation later on so this didn't matter too much. Even if you wouldn't have gotten okkam's off they'd still probably be steadfast - waiting for your elites to follow up.


Great point! That chaos lord made me a bit nervous, so I kind of tunnel visioned on him and as a result played too timidly midfield. This situation almost got really bad for me if he would have broken those archers and pursued into the next block. Then the rear of my line would be wide open to a chaos lord with flying...

Quote:
I'm 99% sure the 3+ ward item his lord had only applies to shooting. It's a fairly common item but as far as I know no item gives you a plain 3+ ward against everything.


Based on what I understand, if a Tzeentch marked character takes the talisman of preservation or armour of destiny (4+ ward), the mark adds +1 to the ward save, as it states the Tzeentch ward stacks with other ward saves. This is similar to how the HW+S warriors had a 3+/5+ save

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:02 pm 
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Why Plague of Rust on the chaos knights, particularly on turn 1? Seering Doom is awesomely effective against the knights, chariot and lord, and I would have been throwing chunks of dice at that from the start. Heck, since LOS is almost impossible to block, you could have thrown it at the solo wizards! Ideally try to get him to use a couple dispel dice on something else first, then power through Seering Doom and simply wipe the knights off the table. The only thing in that army I would have cast Plague of Rust at is the big block of chaos warriors.
Similarly, in turn 4, you cast enfeebling and miasma on the chaos lord. Why not just cast Mindrazor on the spears?!?
It seems like you were opposed to throwing more than a few dice, but even with the puppet to make a miscast fatal, a big Seering Doom or Mindrazor are better for you.

Did your Eagle use his Stomp against the dogs? They are warbeasts, and warbeasts are subject to Stomp. How about against the wizard?

His main combat units seem to have not moved on turn 2? Is that your forgetting the details, or did they really stand around like fools? I agree that he played way too defensively. And he really messed up with those Marauders. Big infantry units do not deploy near the table edge!

You saw the weakness of shadow magic this game - the D3 stat reductions. The lore would be vastly better if those were all a straight -2. That randomness is why I don't like to take Shadow, although I still will use it sometimes.


Curu, the chaos lord had the common 4+ ward and the mark of tzeentch (the only stacking ward save), for a net 3+ ward against everything. Common magic items seriously upgraded the defenses available to WoC.


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:14 pm 
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Ah yes I forgot about the mark's effect. That makes sense...

I agree about poor Marauder placement. This was a mistake which Brewmaster really capitalized on. I didn't know about losing Steadfast in forest - I'll try and remember that ;) Still getting to know the rules properly...

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Quote:
Why Plague of Rust on the chaos knights, particularly on turn 1?Seering Doom is awesomely effective against the knights, chariot and lord, and I would have been throwing chunks of dice at that from the start. Heck, since LOS is almost impossible to block, you could have thrown it at the solo wizards! Ideally try to get him to use a couple dispel dice on something else first, then power through Seering Doom and simply wipe the knights off the table. The only thing in that army I would have cast Plague of Rust at is the big block of chaos warriors.


I don't think I mention it in the report, but the first spell off the starting block was a searing doom on his knights with 3 dice. He dispelled that, and everything else was out of range, so that's when I popped a plague of rust on them. It cast with low dice, and was permanent, as opposed to having to juice up the remains in play shadow spells (which I failed anyway :P). In retrospect, the big block of warriors would have definitely given me more bang for my buck with that spell, but I didn't have much on that flank that could put a dent in those knights.

With only one cast of searing doom a turn, I made the decision to put that on the tough to wound (Understatement of the year) Chaos lord, and try to permanently soften up the knights with rust.

My fault for not mentioning that I did try Searing Doom on the first turn.

Quote:
Similarly, in turn 4, you cast enfeebling and miasma on the chaos lord. Why not just cast Mindrazor on the spears?!?


This, I have no excuse. Ever have one of those forest for the trees moments? I was saying to myself "I need to bring that lord down a notch or two", and missed the obvious answer of just brining the spears *up* a notch or two. Something I'll definitely pay more attention to in the future.

Quote:
Did your Eagle use his Stomp against the dogs? They are warbeasts, and warbeasts are subject to Stomp. How about against the wizard?


The dogs - no. I asked if I get a stomp on them, and was told no, so I trusted this. Serves me right :P. The wizard, yes, but his armour kept him alive. Wizards with armour... *shakes head*

Quote:
His main combat units seem to have not moved on turn 2? Is that your forgetting the details, or did they really stand around like fools? I agree that he played way too defensively. And he really messed up with those Marauders. Big infantry units do not deploy near the table edge!


I think he was afraid to move the 3+ knights up into charge range, and thought he had me in the ranged game with the hellcannon and Ecstatic Seizures. I'm pretty sure he assumed he'd get off either Seizures to soften up the PG, or Titillating Delusions to draw them out to the right for a perfect flank charge. Playing defensively definitely cost him here.

The Marauders - Yeah, I don't take any credit for that. Maybe the Dragon Prince drop fooled him and maybe it didn't. The problem with so many units of dogs is that they take up quite a bit of real estate. He was running out of options for where to put them, but it was still an overreaction putting them on the hard flank. They would have been much better served just behind the dogs and next the the Warriors.

Quote:
You saw the weakness of shadow magic this game - the D3 stat reductions. The lore would be vastly better if those were all a straight -2. That randomness is why I don't like to take Shadow, although I still will use it sometimes.


No kidding! I'm starting to think this lore just hates me, based on how I roll for those D3 spells. Any suggestions on what lore might be good to replace it? Life seems like a possibility, but it seems a bit redundant with a big block of Phoenix Guard.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:26 pm 
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Short comment: a 3-dice Searing Doom will always be dispelled. I don't have many dice you have, but when you go for 1-off spells like this, you need to prioritize your magic phase accordingly. As I run life, I often have a turn where it's critical to get Dweller's off. In these cases, I cast Flesh to Stone first, ensuring there are no DD left. If there are, I go with max dice. Likewise, in some cases it's equally important to get both spells off. If I have a typical 7 vs 4 dice, I'll often throw 2 or 3 at flesh to stone first, giving him a very hard choice, especially if the casting roll is good.

With Searing Doom on lvl 1 and Shadow Magic on lvl 4 though, you pretty much have to chuck 6 dice at upgraded searing doom to have a chance. He simply isn't afraid enough of your other spells (nor should he be) to bother saving DD.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:06 pm 
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Quote:
In combat, the white lions do a big ole 5 wounds to the hellcannon. I start doing my hellcannon destruction dance, when I am informed that you randomize hits versus the crew even in combat



Ummm, do not think this is correct. Having played against a hell cannon several times and not once heard this!

Good game.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:37 pm 
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The hellcannon was correct. Effectively handlers are 3-use 5+ ward save.

I agree with Curu about Seering Doom - you should have been throwing more dice at it. Maybe not 6, but I would have used 4 every turn, and probably a 6-dice max power Seering Doom cast at the Chaos Lord turn 2. Alternatively, depending upon your opponent psychology, you try Miasma and Enfeebling Foe early, in an effort to tempt him into wasting dispel dice. If he does waste some, then you can get the 3-dice Seering Domo through.


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:57 pm 
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Quote:
I agree with Curu about Seering Doom - you should have been throwing more dice at it.


I'll definitely keep this in mind next time.

Any thoughts about alternative lores for one/both of the mages, since Shadows seems to be fickle at best for me? Or should I stick with what I have, and just focus more on getting the spells that I need through more often?

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 1:49 am 
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Fantastic Battle Report. Please keep them up, they're amazing to read :)

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:31 am 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
Quote:
I agree with Curu about Seering Doom - you should have been throwing more dice at it.


I'll definitely keep this in mind next time.

Any thoughts about alternative lores for one/both of the mages, since Shadows seems to be fickle at best for me? Or should I stick with what I have, and just focus more on getting the spells that I need through more often?[/quote]

This first :) . Then try Soulbli...I mean death. :D

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 4:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Thanks guys!

I've got a game in an hour or so actually for our mighty empires campaign taking a very similar list. I'm going to pay extra attention to my casting and prioritize my spells better.

I'll put up a full report tonight in my army blog in the army lists section.

Wish me luck haha!

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There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:15 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
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Location: Oslo, Norway
Best of luck, if you haven't played already! Looking forward to the report ;)

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Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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