Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

Time for battle report 3 from the tournament. As always, my army list for reminder:

Prince - Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Pigeon Pendant
Archmage - Dispel Scroll (Life - Awakening, Shield, Regrowth, Dwellers)
BSB - Heavy Armour, Barded Steed, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light, Great Weapon

30 Spearelves, Full Command, Gleaming Pendant
12 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
12 Archers, Light Armour, Standard

12 Swordmasters (Archmage)
10 White Lion, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame
5 Dragon Princes
1 Tiranoc Chariot
8 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician (Prince, BSB)

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
1 Great Eagle

Opponent & pre-battle thoughts

This time I faced Beastie Boyz and I was really interested in that army. It seems to be an underdog according to the internet knowledge. From my point of view it was great to play against such a rare army (I think there were only two of them in the whole tournament) and wondered what it could do. In particular I was concerned with chariots who are bane of ASF small elite units. BoC army list (with as many details as I remember).

Doombull with heavy armour, shield, Gnarled Hide (scaly skin 5+), Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Arabyan Carpet (fly)
Gorebull BSB - heavy armour, some magical standard and a gift but I can't remember which :(
Gorebull - heavy armour, Many Limbed Fiend
Great Bray Shaman - level 4 , Lore of Beast - Transformation of Kadon, Amber Spear, Flock of Doom but can't remember the last one
Bray Shaman - level 2, Dispel Scroll, Lore of the Wild - Savage Dominion and something else

40 Gors, Full Command
30 Gors, Full Command (Ambush)
5 Ungor Skirmishers
5 Ungor Skirmishers
5 Ungor Skirmishers (Ambush)
3 x Tuskgor Chariot

7 Minotaurs

I was happy to see only 3 chariots and I decided to make them my shooting priority. If I could kill one, then other two would be easy prey for my Knights. Of course if they were to operate as squadron. I had no idea how to deal with Minotaurs (joined by BSB and Gorebull) so I decided to delay their advance. There was also an issue of 30 Gors in the ambush. All depended on where and when they were going to appear. As usual the plan was to divide and conquer. :) First deal with chariots, then surround and destroy big Gor unit while delaying Minotaurs. If that works and have enough turns/units left, I would try and surround Minotaurs.

Deployment

Image
Beastie Boyz ready for action

As I didn't want to fight with my elites against Minotaurs I deployed them on western flank. I thought I could tempt his flying general to attack one of them and keep him occupied for a some time and use the opportunity to move second one to attack big Gor unit with Spears and Knights. The Knights had to deal with chariots as soon as possible. As usual I started second (I feel like I play Bretonnia, I wish I got some blessing thanks to that :))

BoC Turn 1

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Beasties move forward full speed

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And a nice overview

Movement: All units moved forward as fast as possible. Ambushing Gors also appeared on the table but fortunately for me I could decide from which table edge. Not surprisingly I kindly ask my opponent to place them on his edge. That would give me more time to deal with his bigger unit before smaller one enters the fight. On the western flank Doombull flies on his carpet towards elven elites.

Magic: I think his first attempts were simply dispelled. In general nothing happened in this magic phase.

HE Turn 1

Image
HE move forward to meet advancing Beastmen

Charges: White Lions charge the beast, hoping to wound it and keep it for some time to let Swordmasters do their job and occupy huge Minotaur so that he cannot join the fight elsewhere.

Movement: Spearelves positioned themselves next to stone circle ready to intercept advancing Gors or stay and block their advance towards the centre. The Knights moved towards the Chariots, entering their charge range on purpose to tempt them to attack. Chariot and Dragon Princes were held behind to give support but stay away from Minotaurs.

Magic & Shooting: With nothing to regrow yet and not enough dice to cast Dwellers, archmage tried to cast Awakening which was dispelled. One repeater aimed at the chariot in the middle of the squadron and inflicted 3 wounds. The second one, however, failed to do any damage. Archers in the building opened fire at Gors killing a few (despite T4 they die easily as they have absolutely no armour).

Combat: White Lions couldn't harm monstrous Minotaur as his armour proved impenetrable even to their huge axes. The Beasts stroke back killing almost half of a unit. That unnerved chracian huntsmen who failed their stubborn break test and fled, closely pursuit by the raging Doom Bull.

BoC Turn 2

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Chariots thunderous charge!

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The battle really begins!

Charges: As expected the squadron of doom takes the bait and charges in. I am confident the Knights can hold but the question is at what cost. Doombull charges fleeing White Lions who run out of the board. So does Doombull, which is good because he cannot charge anything else his next turn.

Movement: Ungor Skirmishers in front of the Gors run towards the Archers, while Gors themselves move just a little bit forward, inviting Spearelves to charge them. On the east Minotaurs move forward as their living shield moves sideway. Surprisingly other Gor unit made a camp in the marsh and never moved entire game.

Magic: Great Bray shaman cast magic missiles (2D6 S2) on Archers and killed two. Other attempts were dispelled.

Combat: 4 Knights were killed due to Impact Hits but elven heroes destroyed two chariots and damaged the third one. Tuskgors and chariots crews could not inflict any more damage. It meant that remaining chariot lost the combat significantly broke and was run down by pursuing Knights!

HE Turn 2

Image
HE take the initiative

Movement: With no charges HE moved to take advantage of the victorious combat. The Knights swift reformed and moved full speed towards the rear of big Gor units. Swordmasters wheeled to be able to charge them next turn as well, while Spearelves remained in their position, waiting for Archers to clear the path for them. Chariot moved to the flank of Minotaurs. Unfortunately Dragon Princes failed their Ld test and could not march so they retreated towards their deployment. That was probably a mistake as I could run forward and then simply flee as Minotaurs would charge, towards the opposite table edge and save the unit. I also forgot to move the eagle this turn :oops:

Magic & Shooting: Archmage attempts to cast Regrowth and Dwellers were dispelled. Archers killed only two Ungors. Repeaters killed a few more Gors. With no combat that was quite quick round.

BoC Turn 3

Image
BoC keep pressing forward

Charges: Minotaurs charge Dragon Princes who flee from the table. Doombull flies to block Swordmasters' advance (damn!), while Ungor Skirmishers do the same for Spearelves.

Movement: Gor units remain where they are, I don't quite know why.

Magic: Attempt to dispel Savage Dominion fails and ugly Jabberslythe enters the field! Obviously it appears next to my lonely repeaters. It is getting interesting :)

HE Turn 3

Image
HE bid their time for an attack

Charges: The Chariot charges Ungors as they became visible after Minotaur charged elven Knights.

Movement: Silver Helms close the distance to Gors. Swordmasters move slightly back and ready themselves for combat next turn. Archmage steps up to have a line of sight to the newly called monster and be able to cast Aweking to put it down.

Magic & Shooting: Awekening goes through but no wound is inflicted. Archers from the building and both Repeaters unleash their fire at Jabber but manage to wound it only once. Ouch! Not good. The second unit of Archers kill all Ungors though.

Combat: Chariot kills Ungors with easy and stays behind Minotaurs.

BoC Turn 4

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Even more Monsters appear on the battlefield!

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Behold Great Fire Dragon!

Charges: Doombull charges Swordmasters while Jabber hits Repeater.

Movement: Minotaurs close the distance towards second repeater. Big Gor unit reforms to face incoming elven Knights but also to have Spearelves in their front arch.

Magic: Archmage fails to dispel Flock of Doom (my big mistake for letting him be targeted) but i fortunate to survive on 1 wound (later healed). This also mean the Transformation of Kadon had been successfully cast and Great Fire Dragon appeared among the ranks of Gors and stepped forward roaring a challenge to nearby Spearelves.

Combat: Swordmasters swung their blades with precision but they too could not penetrate Doombull's armour. They lost a few of their numbers but held. Jabber made a short work of the crew but not before they inflicted another wound on it. Jabber overrun into second Repeater.

HE Turn 4

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HE charge in!

Charges: The Prince orders his Knights to attack despite lack of support from Spearelves who now have their own trouble to deal with. However, the Archers jump over the wall and charge the exposed flank of big Gor unit. They add their standard and flank attack to the combat and will fight only 3 gors.

Movement: Archmage joins the Archers in the building while Great Eagle lands in front of Minotaurs.

Magic & Shooting: Archmage manages to Regrow one Knight. Not much in shooting phase with enemy regiments out of range or shooter engaged in combat.

Combat: Swordmasters still cannot wound Doombull, lose combat are broken and run down. Doombull, however, again flies out of the board. It is very important to kill Bray-Shaman to make jabber disappear and Silver Helms manage to do it. The Repeater is saved. The Prince and remaining Knights inflict some more damage while Archers kill one gor. With no casualties in return Gors lose combat, break and run down (by Archers as the Knights were too slow :))!

BoC Turn 5

Image
Great Fire Dragon charges Spearelves!

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Mighty dragon versus disciplined ranks of Spearelves

Charges: Great Fire Dragon charges Spearelves who hold. Can they hold long enough for the Knights to come to the rescue? Minotaurs charge Great Eagle.

Movement: Doombull flies to face the Knights and prepares for his last charge.

Combat: With no magic we proceeded towards combats. Minotaurs chopped poor eagle to pieces in no time. The Champion of Spearelves valiantly called a challenge to transformed Great Shaman and was killed outright. But thanks to his sacrifice the combat ended with a draw.

HE Turn 5

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The game enters its end phase

Movement: Archers and Knights reform to face Doombull, while Chariot shifts a little.

Magic & Shooting: I learned I could dispel Transformation so I picked all my dice and managed to do this. great! My 4 ranks of spears can aim at Great-Shaman now with success :) I must admit I was really scared that with attacks, breath hits and thunderstomp Great Fire Dragon would kill too many Speaelves. And I am not sure I could wound it much with my Prince either. I am also confused as I remember at this moment I was shooting at lone Gorebull who moved out from his unit. He also ate my Repeater and was killed later by archers. Just can't recall when he was separated from the unit so forgive me for not precise diagrams showing slightly different situation.

Combat: Now Spearelves could avenge their brave Captain and pierced Great Shaman many times. Malicious sorcerer was no more.

BoC Turn 6

Image
Not much have left of the might beastmen horde

Charges: Doombull decided to attack the Knights in the last glorious charge.

Movement: Minotaurs wanted to trap the Chariot and in order to do so BSB moved out of the unit. Again, that has happened a turn before as in the 5th my turn I had a choice "to charge or be charged". Since I can't recall how it recall was I decided to put it in a diagram in a similar way. The outcome was I charged BSB with a Chariot but got only one impact hit and the Chariot was destroyed. Sorry for confusion :(

Combat: Elven Prince decided to solve the matter personally and challenged Doombull to single combat. Monstrous Minotaur had no less than 9 Attacks now thanks to many victorious combats but managed to inflict only single wound. Elven Prince harmed him many times and Great Bull was seriously wounded now but kept fighting.

HE Turn 6

Combat: With other units out of range for shooting and magic there was only one combat to resolve. Just to make sure, the Prince used his Talisman of Loec and finally killed Doombull. With the death of the general of beast army the battle was over and HE emerged victorious!

Comments
I am obviously glad I won but I must admit my opponent helped me to achieve that victory. I forgot to ask why he kept his other Gors out of action. I was lucky their ambush failed (small Ungor unit failed to appear whole battle). His deployment was also helping me to deal with his army separately. I would place his Minotaurs in the centre so they could be helpful anywhere. His chariots are dangerous but I would also use them as flank protection instead of charging the only unit who could deal with them, even when charged. His last charge was kind of suicidal I think but with some luck he could kill my Prince so maybe that was worht risking.

Beastmen army is very interesting opponent and I really was scared when two big monsters appeared on the table. I am glad I managed to come up with a solution to that problem. I didn't know Doombull is such a combat monster. Had I known I would not charge him with White Lions but wait for his attack and then challenged him with WL Champion. If they held they would stay there longer, need to remember that for future. I was also tempted to position my Knight on the western flank instead of elites but then I had to deal with chariots in other way. Probably playing defensively and shoot at them more before they would be in charge range. I am not sure it would be a better solution. I am also convinced that horde formation does not suit Beastmen and they should deploy deep to keep their steadfast as long as possible with many chariots as second wave attack.

I was shooting at big Gor unit all game as I wanted to decrease number of ranks to break their steadfast. I could ignore them and shoot at Minotaurs with repeaters, as Big Bulls are quite vulnerable to such attacks. But I am glad I did what I did as in the end they didn't have steadfast and their BSB was not nearby either.

I really enjoyed that battle mainly due to this additional fantasy dimension when his Shamen started calling big monsters to their aid. I am also sure there are things I could do better anyway so do not hesitate to point out my mistakes as it is much harder to spot them when one is winning :)

Thanks for reading! :)
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#2 Post by Gwydion »

Many thanks for the fanatstic reports! I really enjoy reading them. Keep them coming. :D
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Elessehta of Yvresse
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#3 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

ye gads you were lucky you weren't punished for having your two repeaters so close to each other, that could have been dangerous. I think Beastmen are underrated, there were some tense moments in that fight.Congratulations on the win.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#4 Post by Curu Olannon »

Thanks again for a wonderful report! Interesting read, indeed!

I don't understand why you don't castle up more in this instance. Your army is very vulnerable when spread apart and he has the units to punish you for this between fast units, hard-hitting chariots and ambushers. I believe you could have tightened up your units a lot more and it would have been very hard for him to isolate your elements (like your lions / masters). Also, you keep missing out on leadership tests - another hint that your army is too separated. In your former victories against Vampire Counts and Dark Elves your army has been much more of a concentrated force. I believe you could've very well lost the battle here against a stronger opponent. How he managed to do nothing with his minotaurs or Gor unit is amazing, considering they're quite a huge chunk of his points!

As for the list I believe you should drop an RBT, grab another eagle and beef up your infantry more. You seem to play too aggressively for spending this amount of points in ranged units. If you look at Seredain's play, for example against Daemons recently, you can see that he waits them out a lot more and plays with his units more tightly together compared to you. I think it's time you start swapping out some elements to better fit the list to your playing style :)
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#5 Post by Seredain »

I think Curu makes a very good point here.

You do like to spread your units out and that can leave the smaller ones very vulnerable and/or stranded away from combat. The best way to reliably use smaller units like the lions and swordmasters is to keep them close to the rest of your army so mutual support can be offered. Perhaps your playstyle should, as suggested, dictate the list you use?

Nice to see the knights taking a big lead here. Feels good when your general kills his general, doesn't it? :)

Another great report with a nice selection of pictures and maps - thanks again!
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#6 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Gwydion wrote:Many thanks for the fanatstic reports! I really enjoy reading them. Keep them coming. :D
Thanks! I hope you enjoy them no matter who wins :)
Tiralya wrote:ye gads you were lucky you weren't punished for having your two repeaters so close to each other, that could have been dangerous. I think Beastmen are underrated, there were some tense moments in that fight.Congratulations on the win.
I guess you do not like Repeaters together and no matter what you take it as a mistake :) I agree, I think Beastmen are dangerous army but lack of armour and long range attacks make it difficult army to play with.
Curu Olannon wrote:Thanks again for a wonderful report! Interesting read, indeed!
You welcome! :)
Curu Olannon wrote:I don't understand why you don't castle up more in this instance. Your army is very vulnerable when spread apart and he has the units to punish you for this between fast units, hard-hitting chariots and ambushers. I believe you could have tightened up your units a lot more and it would have been very hard for him to isolate your elements (like your lions / masters).
I guess I am not good at defense :)
Curu Olannon wrote:Also, you keep missing out on leadership tests - another hint that your army is too separated. In your former victories against Vampire Counts and Dark Elves your army has been much more of a concentrated force. I believe you could've very well lost the battle here against a stronger opponent. How he managed to do nothing with his minotaurs or Gor unit is amazing, considering they're quite a huge chunk of his points!
I know I am not experienced player at the moment due to very long break in gaming and because I use a completely new army in terms of composition. Of course it would be more difficult against stronger opponent. But how is it going to help me to play better if you say that stronger player would defeat me? :p
Curu Olannon wrote:As for the list I believe you should drop an RBT, grab another eagle and beef up your infantry more. You seem to play too aggressively for spending this amount of points in ranged units. If you look at Seredain's play, for example against Daemons recently, you can see that he waits them out a lot more and plays with his units more tightly together compared to you. I think it's time you start swapping out some elements to better fit the list to your playing style :)
I think I will make some changes to this list as indeed I seem to prefer more aggressive approach. It is still great army to play with and I am learning a lot, especially when I lose. It is simply because hard lessons are better remembered and there is no better place to learn than during a tournament :)
Seredain wrote:I think Curu makes a very good point here.

You do like to spread your units out and that can leave the smaller ones very vulnerable and/or stranded away from combat. The best way to reliably use smaller units like the lions and swordmasters is to keep them close to the rest of your army so mutual support can be offered. Perhaps your playstyle should, as suggested, dictate the list you use?
I am really glad I had such a nice opportunity to try out this list. Otherwise it would be theoryhammer :) I hope you are not frustrated when I make so many mistakes with it, as it is very fragile and falls apart quickly. But as I said before I learn a lot with it like with no other. I think the best example is with DE armies, when I managed to win against similar army (by some considered stronger than the list I was using). I also won against Bretonnian army I lost last time today, which means I do learn something. I will tailor this army list though. It is not because I am so strongly advised to do so :) But because I feel that I should do that as despite all the joy I have with it, this is not my army list. I borrowed that from you and I know that I do not have the insight and patience to play with it the way you do. And I don't want to :) I hope that soon I will be able to present the army list which will borrow from your experience but will suit my style of play. Believe it or not that was the plan from the start :)
Seredain wrote:Nice to see the knights taking a big lead here. Feels good when your general kills his general, doesn't it? :)
Oh yes :)
Seredain wrote:Another great report with a nice selection of pictures and maps - thanks again!
You welcome! I am really glad they are received so nicely and that makes me want to write some more :)
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#7 Post by tundrik »

I have to say i have very much enjoyed reading your reports so far. They have made me get my HE back out of the to do box and im currently getting them ready for war ince again.

Great work so far.
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#8 Post by hewhorocks »

((I posted a link to this report on the herdstone just to see if any regular beast players have comments))
My army http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=35197

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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#9 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

tundrik wrote:I have to say i have very much enjoyed reading your reports so far. They have made me get my HE back out of the to do box and im currently getting them ready for war ince again.

Great work so far.
Thanks! I am very happy to hear you are preparing HE host for action. :) Good luck!
hewhorocks wrote:((I posted a link to this report on the herdstone just to see if any regular beast players have comments))
Excellent! I am sure they would not be happy with the performance of their kin :)
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#10 Post by Curu Olannon »

I must apologize for, again, coming off too harsh.

Basically, what I wanted to say was that I believe your opponent made some pretty bad calls which helped you out a great deal. 2 major things I want to ask you about:
1. When you deployed, why did you space your army out so much? How would you have dealt with the ambushers coming in on your left flank - against your SM and WL?
2. In your turn 1, why did you move up so fast? His army can't hurt you at range and by staying put and simply maneuvring to meet his advance you buy yourself another turn of shooting and magic before combat. Besides, the further he has to go, the more dangerous it is for him to open up a hole in his lines since your cavalry can have a field day behind is other units should you break through.

In my opinion, he could've capitalized on these 2 mistakes, which he didn't. I'm not saying you're a bad player or that you're not learning - because I think you really are learning and getting quite good at this - it just appears that sometimes you do things because you're used to them instead of trying to rationalize why you do them.

For every move you make - try to justify it compared to standing still. Example: why did your white lions charge his doombull? If you had placed the swordmasters and white lions with a 90 degree angle between them, the doombull would have to charge - and potentially be counter-charged. More importantly, if he won the combat, the next turn would be yours - allowing you to move your units accordingly to his combat win. I guess what I'm trying to ask you is, what did you gain by charging here compared to standing your ground?

It seems you have learned to use the armies units together, now viewing them as entities instead of separate units. This is a huge improvement compared to some of your earlier vampire games! Now, you need to learn how to use these entities together - castling up when necessary and being patient when it's called for :) I believe some unit swaps would suit you very well and I'm interested in knowing how you intend to tailor this list to your playing style :)

Regards,
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#11 Post by Jimmy »

Thanks for making my working day go just that bit quicker.

Great report and an excellent victory indeed.
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#12 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

I was going to post a huge list of comments and criticisms when I started this post, but deleted most of them... many of them I've made before, and I need to remember that even though you're posting these battles over the course of a week, they all occurred in the same weekend with very little time for restructuring your strategies or list.
Consequently, you're going to be making a lot of similar mistakes, and I think you've already made note of a lot of them. I'm certainly curious to see the rest of your reports, but I think a lot of the points I could make are just going to start sounding familiar, and I don't want to contribute to giving you a defeatist complex, contracting analysis paralysis or some equally dreadful mental hiccup! :lol:

Mainly, Curu Ollanon paraphrased something I said to you in private, and that's to ask yourself what potential does each move you make have compared to sitting still. I know you have cavalry charge syndrome, but there's a lot to be said for waiting things out sometimes. Beyond that, and adapting the list to your aggressive playstyle, just keep playing as you have been!
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#13 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Curu Olannon wrote:I must apologize for, again, coming off too harsh.
Curu, my friend. I really appreciate your insight. I really do and I have no problem with criticism. On many occasions you poined out things I missed out and that is great! That is why I post my defeats here for people to tell me what to do better. As long as I make the same mistake I am glad you keep telling me that is a mistake :) There is no need to apologize and you are not harsh at all. I was simply slightly put off by your comment that better opponent would crush me. I got used to your good suggestions while this one hardly helps me to improve anything and can be simply taken as "you are poor player" :) While I know I am not great (not yet, haha!) I do not think I am that bad, although I tend to play poorly sometimes and when I analyze my own battles later I am really frustrated I have made so many stupid mistakes. So do not worry about being harsh, just keep coming with these excellent suggestions :)
Curu Olannon wrote:Basically, what I wanted to say was that I believe your opponent made some pretty bad calls which helped you out a great deal.
Yes, but taking an opportunity presented by my opponent and his mistakes is also a way to win. It happened to me in the first game where the battle would not be such one sided. My opponent made some good moves but it was mainly due to my mistakes he won. Does it make him a worse player? Didn't he deserve his victory because he capitalized on my mistakes mostly rather than come up with some brilliant plan?
Curu Olannon wrote:2 major things I want to ask you about:
1. When you deployed, why did you space your army out so much? How would you have dealt with the ambushers coming in on your left flank - against your SM and WL?
By the time he positioned his own units I had three of my own not yet deployed. All my hard hitters, i.e. Knights, WL and SM. Seeing an opportunity to envelope him on the west I positioned my both elites on far flank so that one of them would tie Doombull, while to other would support Spearelves and the Knights in attack against big Gor unit.

As to the Ambush I must admit I didn't plan much for it. I remembered only that he has to roll for each unit where they appear and as it started very quickly with his Gor unit emerging from his own side I simply ignored them and proceeded with my initial plan. Had he appear behind my elites I would meet them head on. I had many attacks and probably Swordmasters on thei own would deal with Gors. In the end I dealt with big Gor unit without my elites anyway. I am not saying it would be easy but had he positioned his ambushers on that flank I would not be worried that much.

If he decided to show up against my eastern flank I would delay his Minotaurs with an Eagle and turn around my Knights. His chariots would be out of range without my unit coming towards them so I had time to react. Or so I think :)
Curu Olannon wrote:2. In your turn 1, why did you move up so fast? His army can't hurt you at range and by staying put and simply maneuvring to meet his advance you buy yourself another turn of shooting and magic before combat. Besides, the further he has to go, the more dangerous it is for him to open up a hole in his lines since your cavalry can have a field day behind is other units should you break through.
I wanted to use his chariots as a speed bump. He charged, I won and pursued and by swift reforming I was already at the rear of his unit. I probably should have done that with my Knights only and do not close in with DP and chariot as it unfortunately brought them too close to Minotaurs. That I admit was a mistake. But thanks to that I managed to get rid of dangerous chariots and be in a better position for a combined charge against big Gor unit. What is more, I wanted to do it as soon as possible. He didn't support his units with each other so the sooner I dealt with one the sooner I could turn around and set up a charge against the other part. As it turned out I was delayed anyway and had no time to catch small Gor unit or Minotaurs. I did exactly what you suggested. I broke with my cavalry through his units to get to the rear.
Curu Olannon wrote:In my opinion, he could've capitalized on these 2 mistakes, which he didn't.
Yes, that is why I won and he didn't. What is wrong with capitalizing on his mistakes? I had my initial plan, I knew I wanted to deal with chariots first (by the way, I think I was a little unlucky with shooting as I had a very good chance at destroying at least one chariot with Repeaters). After seeing his deployment I sized offered opportunities and have taken back the initiative he had by starting the game. Is in it what I should be doing?
Curu Olannon wrote:I'm not saying you're a bad player or that you're not learning - because I think you really are learning and getting quite good at this - it just appears that sometimes you do things because you're used to them instead of trying to rationalize why you do them.
Hm, maybe, I didn't look at it from this angle. Thanks!
Curu Olannon wrote:For every move you make - try to justify it compared to standing still. Example: why did your white lions charge his doombull? If you had placed the swordmasters and white lions with a 90 degree angle between them, the doombull would have to charge - and potentially be counter-charged. More importantly, if he won the combat, the next turn would be yours - allowing you to move your units accordingly to his combat win. I guess what I'm trying to ask you is, what did you gain by charging here compared to standing your ground?
From the hindsight it was a mistake and I should have done it the way you said. What is more I should have challenged him to keep my WL alive as long as possible with nice countercharge of SM. I thought I could tie him there. I was not sure if he is not going to simply fly away. As it turned out he had no intentions to do so and I could do the way you said. I did it later with my Swordmasters but this time only to delay him. I know it is not an excuse but I didn't anticipate he can be such a killer and that the strongest unit in my army will not be able to wound him at all.

In general, however, I wanted to thank you for that suggestion as I am really pre-occupied with moving units around. It often seems to me that when I stay still I do not use my army properly, which is obviously not the case :)
Curu Olannon wrote:It seems you have learned to use the armies units together, now viewing them as entities instead of separate units. This is a huge improvement compared to some of your earlier vampire games! Now, you need to learn how to use these entities together - castling up when necessary and being patient when it's called for :) I believe some unit swaps would suit you very well and I'm interested in knowing how you intend to tailor this list to your playing style :)
I am still thinking on it. I believe I can come up with some ideas after I write down all reports (including Bretonnian rematch) and my conclusions I had after. There are a few things I would like to discuss here but for completeness I really want to do first things first. :)
Jimmy wrote:Thanks for making my working day go just that bit quicker.

Great report and an excellent victory indeed.
Cheers! I just wish I had more opportunities to write about my victories :D
~Milliardo~ wrote:I was going to post a huge list of comments and criticisms when I started this post, but deleted most of them... many of them I've made before, and I need to remember that even though you're posting these battles over the course of a week, they all occurred in the same weekend with very little time for restructuring your strategies or list.
That is true, but it was a good thing because I could use the same army against variety of opponents. Some of my fears were proved to be right, some ideas were not that great but some worked out. But I would still like to read your comments despite the fact we have already discussed majority of them. I think some other people could also benefit from your insight :)
~Milliardo~ wrote:Consequently, you're going to be making a lot of similar mistakes, and I think you've already made note of a lot of them. I'm certainly curious to see the rest of your reports, but I think a lot of the points I could make are just going to start sounding familiar, and I don't want to contribute to giving you a defeatist complex, contracting analysis paralysis or some equally dreadful mental hiccup! :lol:
You have no idea how right you are about making those mistakes over and over again :D
~Milliardo~ wrote:Mainly, Curu Ollanon paraphrased something I said to you in private, and that's to ask yourself what potential does each move you make have compared to sitting still. I know you have cavalry charge syndrome, but there's a lot to be said for waiting things out sometimes. Beyond that, and adapting the list to your aggressive playstyle, just keep playing as you have been!
I still believe that I can actually do both. I can learn patience and make a more aggressive list at the same time. It is like with a solitary predator such as tiger, or even pride of lions who have a powerful charge but often need to lie in ambush quietly before the attack :)

Thank you all for comments, keep them coming. I am at the moment busy with 4th report, this time against shooty Tomb King army. Stay tuned!
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Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#14 Post by Seredain »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I am really glad I had such a nice opportunity to try out this list. Otherwise it would be theoryhammer :) I hope you are not frustrated when I make so many mistakes with it, as it is very fragile and falls apart quickly.
No, I'm not frustrated at all! They're all great reports to read. As you say, though, parts of the list are fragile so you need to be a little careful.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: It is like with a solitary predator such as tiger, or even pride of lions who have a powerful charge but often need to lie in ambush quietly before the attack :)
Exactly!
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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SpellArcher
Green Istari
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Re: Tournament Report - Battle 3/5

#15 Post by SpellArcher »

Yes, lovely reports. Really clear and informative!

Once again, well played! I particularly liked the Archer charge into the flank of the Gors. What a chaotic game! Playing Beasts must be a scream!
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I will tailor this army list though. It is not because I am so strongly advised to do so But because I feel that I should do that as despite all the joy I have with it, this is not my army list. I borrowed that from you and I know that I do not have the insight and patience to play with it the way you do. And I don't want to I hope that soon I will be able to present the army list which will borrow from your experience but will suit my style of play. Believe it or not that was the plan from the start
Fantastic.
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