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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:39 pm 
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Greetings!

This battle report is a tribute to Seredain from ulthuan.net who inspired many HE players to use a cavalry prince and has a very interesting approach to HE in 8th edition. Have a look at his topic, as he had some very useful ideas which can be applied to other armies too.

Here is a link to his topic: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=33584

Introduction

It was a test battle for me and my opponent as he played with Vampire Counts for the first time and I had an opportunity to use a 2400 version of Seredain's army list. Because of that we decided to play Battleline scenario.

My plan was to use destroy Corpse Cart with shooting, then kill Dire Wolves with either shooting or my own fast units. White Lions were to hunt down Vargulf, while Black Coach was a first target for Prince and his Knights. LSG and Swordmasters were to follow as a second line and join the battle together with fast units, which by that time should have achieved their objectives and could attack undead main battle line from all sides.

VC Army List

Vampire Lord - Forbidden Lore, Dark Acolyte, Black Periapt, Summon Ghouls, Talisman of Preservation (Vampire Lore)
Vampire - Ghoulkin, Infinite Hatred, The Flayed Hauberk, The Cursed Book (Invocation)
Wight King BSB - Banner of Barrows
Necromancer - Extra Necromancy Spell (Invocation, Van Hels), Dispel Scroll, Nightshroud, rides on Corpse Cart with Balefire

24 Ghouls with Ghast
24 Ghouls with Ghast
23 Ghouls with Ghast (Vampire)
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves

30 Grave Guard, Full Command, Great Weapon, Royal Standard of Strigos (Vampire Lord, BSB)

Vargulf
Black Coach

Deployment Order: Wolves, Wolves, Ghouls, Ghouls, Ghouls, Vargulf, Grave Guard, Black Coach

HE Army List

Prince - Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Pidgeon Pendant
Archmage - Dispel Scroll (Lore of Life)
BSB - Heavy Armour, Barded Steed, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light, Great Weapon

30 Lothern Seaguard, Full Command, Gleaming Pendant
14 Archers, Light Armour, Musician, Standard

12 Swordmasters (Archmage)
10 White Lion, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame
5 Dragon Princes
1 Tiranoc Chariot
8 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician (Prince, BSB)

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
1 Great Eagle

Deployment Order: Archers, Eagle, Chariot, RBT, LSG, Swordmasters, Dragon Princes, White Lions, Silver Helms

Archmage spells: Earth Blood, Flesh to Stone, Throne of Vines, Regrowth

Battle

Deployment

Vampires had first turn but before that all units of Ghouls moved full 8" forward.

Image
Deployment after pre-battle movement of Ghouls thanks to Ghoulkin vampiric power

VC Turn 1

Image
Vampire army moves forward surprisingly fast. Grey arrows indicate units movement. Yellow arrow indicates movement due to Van Hels spell

Movement: Ghouls march move straight forward. Grave Guard, Corpse Cart and Black Coach form second line. Dire Wolves on the east move cautiously. Their brethren on the west are even more shy. Vargulf redeploys towards the centre.

Magic: Only one spell is successfully cast. Middle unit of Ghouls moves forward another 8".

HE Turn 1

Image
High Elves needed to act fast to counter rapid advance of Ghouls. Red arrows indicate charging units

Charges: As the opportunity presented itself (mainly due to only one Van Hels getting through), Lothern Sea Guard charged into the flank of the central Ghouls. After a little hesitation, archers decided to join the combat. If they could win the fight by large enough margin the Ghouls could crumble completely and both could reform to face a new threat.

Movement: On the west White Lions run forward towards Vargulf. Dragon Princes used their speed to position themselves for a flank charge against Ghouls. Great Eagle landed in front of the western unit in order to buy time for Lothern Sea Guard to finish off their enemy. Chariot positioned itself between Archers and RBT. Swordmasters and Knights moved forward as fast as possible, threatening undead flank.

Magic: I rolled double 1 while casting Throne of Vines, the first spell, thus magic phase ended.

Shooting: The crews of RBT's were clearly shaken by the unnatural speed of undead horde and they managed to inflict only a single wound on both, Necromancer and his Corpse Cart.

Combat: Archers and Lothern Seaguard must have been unnerved too and both units failed their fear test. Fortunately, LSG had a Gleaming Pennant, and they past on re-roll. However, this affected the combat on Archers part and by the end of the fight 3 Gouls kept fighting (initially we forgot to test for fear and in that case Elves wiped out entire unit but fortunately we reminded ourselves about fear test before it was too late). This left LSG with exposed flank and in very dangerous situation.

VC Turn 2

Image
Undead press forward

Charges: Dire Wolves on the East charge RBT. Nearby Ghouls want to attack Tiranoc Chariot but cannot make it. Ghouls on the West charge Great Eagle.

Movement: Vargulf moved further to the centre and positioned itself at a flank of Grave Guard which moved forward too. Black Coach withdrew a little, bidding its time and draining magic for as much upgrades as possible. Corpse Cart moved behind Ghouls.

Magic: Fortunately for Elves no spells go through (weak winds of magic combined with Black Coach dice stealing and successful dispelling)

Combat: Dire Wolves kill entire crew but lose one of their number and overrun behind enemy lines. Nearby units pass their panic tests. Ghouls finish Great Eagle easily and attack Lothern Seaguard. In that multiple combat central unit of Ghouls is finished, Lother Seaguard kill a few pressing at them from the side. Somehow they do not lose many in that combat and remain steadfast, pass their break test and even manage to combat reform to face their new opponent. Unfortunately Archers break and flee from combat. However, it HE had a lot of luck they withstood that counterattack.

Image
Situation on the battlefield after combat

HE Turn 2

Image
Exchange of heavy blows continues

Charges: Dragon Princes come to the rescue for hard pressed Lothern Seaguard. Tiranoc Chariot spotted Corpse Cart and charged to destroy it. Prince gave command for his Knights and a thundering charge hit home to the flank of Ghouls. Unfortunatley Swordmasters didn't join that charge (I rolled 1 and 2 for a charge distance when I needed 5).

Movement: White Lions moved towards the centre and behind the woods, ready to charge Vargulf as soon as it shows up. Archers rallied and formed so that they could shoot at Dire Wolves.

Magic: Again magic was uneventful.

Shooting: RBT on the West aimed at approaching Direwolves and killed two.

Combat: Dragon Princes and Lothern Seaguard kill many Ghouls and win combat by large margin but not large enough to wipe them out. On the East Vampire shouts a challenge and noble HE battle standard bearer accepts. Evil Vampire reads unholy verses from his cursed book but he is still wounded by elven warrior. Vampire cannot strike hard enough to break through fine elven armour. The Prince and his Knights inflict horrendous damage but again not enough to completely destroy the enemy and 3 Ghouls keep fighting. Tiranoc Chariot manages to inflict only single wound on Corpse Cart (damn regeneration!) and due to proximity of undead BSB, necromancer survives combat. Again elven warriors need to brace for impact as enemy elites are going to join the fight.

Image
Situation after combat

VC Turn 3

Image
Another countercharge of the undead. Will they break Elves this time?

Charges: Vampire Lord had a difficult decision to make. Should he attack Tiranoc Chariot and then overrun into Elven Knights? Or maybe he should attack weaker units on the West, break them and turn back to finish the rest of HE army? He decided to charge Dragon Princes in the end, together with Vargulf, while Black Coach, now fully upgraded, charged the flank of the Knights.

Movement: Only wolves didn't fight and while one unit tried to avoid Archers, the other one moved towards RBT.

Magic: Again HE Archmage proved his worth by dispelling Van Hels two times in a row. A third attempt to cast a spell failed and magic phase ended.

Combat: Dragon Princes fought hard to inflict as many casualties as possible, killed three Grave Guard but all of them died in the end. Lotern Saeguard finished off remaining Ghouls but it was not enough and they fled from combat. Grave Guard and Vargulf overrun. White Lions could not withstand the sight of butchered heavy cavalry and panicked. In the meantime, Black Coach hit hard (6+1 impact hits) but only single Knight fell (very unlucky for undead player to roll three 1's for to wound roll). Prince moved to the side to aid his warriors, inflicted two wounds but both were saved due to ward save. No further Knights were killed in that combat. What is more, Elven BSB killed his Vampire opponent in a challenge and 3 Ghouls were also destroyed. In the end elves won combat decisively and even Black Coach crumbled to dust. Tiranoc Chariot finishes off Necromancer easily. Another very lucky outcome for Elves.

Image
Situation after the combat. Yellow arrows indicate fleeing units.

HE Turn 3

Image
HE redress their ranks, rally troops and prepare to face still dangerous units of Vampire Lord.

Movement: A little break in combat. Grave Guard was too far away to risk a charge, so Prince ordered his troops to position themselves for a combined charge next turn. White Lions rallied and faced Grave Guard while Lothern Seaguard turned and leveled their spears to fight off rampaging Vargulf.

Magic: Still nothing. :(

Shooting: RBT finished off remaining Dire Wolves. Arches completely fail to wound even a single Dire Wolf.

VC Turn 4

Image
Undead keep fighting. Will they break from the encirclement or maybe White Lions hold them long enough for the Cavalry to join the fight?

Charges: With nothing to lose Vampire Lord orders his minions to attack. He himself leads the charge on White Lions, while Vargulf attacks Lothern Seaguard.

Magic: Yet again Vampire Lord cannot summon enough power to break through magical defenses woven by HE Archmage.

Combat: Ferocious fight erupts. White Lions fight like heroes. They kill Wight King and no less than 6 Grave Guard. But cursed Wight blades rise again and it seems that brave White Lions are going to die. And then a miracle happens! Three of them, full command group manages to survive the combat and they pass their stubborn break test! (it was extremely unlucky for Grave Guard, as they rolled five 1's on to wound roll). Vargulf killed a bunch of LSG but they were steadfast and stood their ground.

Image
White Lions held and it means that elven Knights are going to hit the rear of Grave Guard next turn!

HE Turn 4

Image
Is it the end of Vampire Lord?

Charges: Prince and his Knights do not waste more time and charge Grave Guard from the rear. Tiranoc Chariot joins the fight and passes its Dangerous Terrain test.

Movement: Swordmasters position themselves for a flank attact on Vargulf.

Magic: Finally Archmage can cast some spells. Throne of Vines is followed by Flesh to Stone on White Lions but resurrection of the fallen Knight is dispelled by Vampire Lord.

Combat: The fight is again bloody. HE Knights, Chariot and remaining White Lions manage to kill 15 Grave Guard! Unfortunately brave White Lions are killed to the last nevertheless. In the end, however, Vampire Lord loses combat by such a great margin he and his undead elite warriors crumble to dust. Vargulf manages to kill some more Lothern Seaguard but they still hold. At this point the game is over and High Elves emerge victorious.

After-battle Comments

I believe I had a lot of luck in this game. Crucial moments for me where:

1. Failing fear tests with LSG and Archers - failed to wipe out Ghouls in single combat and endangered LSG.

2. Not running away from Ghouls with LSG - had I lost 3 more elves there would be no steadfast.

3. Winning against Black Coach despite its 7 impact hits - it could hold me there long enough for Grave Guard to destroy my other flank.

4. Stopping Grave Guard with White Lions - that was extremely lucky. I simply wanted to thin them down with high strength attacks and kill his BSB. Instead I managed to pin him down and finish him off next round.

I think Vampires are still very dangerous army and this battle was definitely not one-sided as the final outcome might suggest. I made a few mistakes (like landing Great Eagle in front of Ghouls, it didn't buy me time at all! Needless sacrifice). I was also a little disappointed with my magic, I barely cast any spells. But the Archmage did great in terms of dispelling spells so I do not complain that much. :)

I really like the way this particular HE army works. It has to be used carefully but when things works it can be dangerous too. I am definitely going to use it more. I hear that the Vampire Lord was not really dead and that he is planning a revenge :)

Thanks for reading! :)

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High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:30 pm 
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Great report and fun to read. What did you use to generate the images?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Thanks! I was using Battle Chronicler: http://www.battlechronicler.com/

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High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:34 pm 
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Nice fight!!!! I have come from Seredain post and it's good to see how you made good use of the list.

Now I'm considering a variation of this theme for our local pre heat for ETC (4º draft rules).

Do you think it's advisable to downgrade the archmage to a level 2? I fear in 2400 points the prince and archmage leaves the elite units a little short.

Could this list defeat another with Lord of Change and 3 units of 24 bloodletters?

Thank you!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:11 am 
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Great battle, wonderful report!

I also came from seredain's thread but I frequently visit this board as well so I would've come across this at some point ;) Unfortunately, way too few bother making a proper report like this. In my opinion, so much is lost without pictures/diagrams.

Here are my thoughts:

- This battle highlights the weakness of the Seaguard. They are overpriced Spearelves and you're better off separating them into a unit of spears and one small unit of archers. This provides more bodies and you don't lose attacks (since 10 archers can deploy 5x2 and fight with just as many attacks as 10 seaguard).

- Your swordmasters unit should be chipped down. Having all the expensive stuff in a unit that is relatively easy to avoid is hardly worth it. Make it a bare-bones unit of 10/14 swordmasters. Same goes for white lions, in my opinion. Use your spare points to beef these units.

- The Prince with his helmbus is amazing. This is nothing new, but it's worth noting that one unit of DP's and the helmbus create a LOT of dynamics on the table that your enemy is not used to coping with. I'm interested to see how my setup fares once I get 2k points done. Essentially my list is the same as these, but without a fighty lord and more focus on magic.

- With the archers and magic support, are 2 RBT really needed at 2-2500 points? I find myself asking in what situations an additional great eagle and more elites are not more useful. I think one backed up by a block or two of archers provide the support we need in most cases.

Overall, this was a very interesting read. Thanks a million for taking the time to properly make the diagrams etc :)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:55 pm 
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pedrogzc wrote:
Nice fight!!!! I have come from Seredain post and it's good to see how you made good use of the list.

Thanks! I am glad I had a chance to use his army and I really like it. :)

pedrogzc wrote:
Do you think it's advisable to downgrade the archmage to a level 2? I fear in 2400 points the prince and archmage leaves the elite units a little short.

No, level 2 is simply not good enough. With an Archmage you have +5 to dispell. It is a massive difference, especially that you have a single mage. What is more, as soon as you fail to dispell any spell, this mage cannot dispell any longer that magic phase (something I overlooked and didn't remember so far). I must admit this Archmage is more for defensive reasons. Casting spells is important but not as crucial.

pedrogzc wrote:
Could this list defeat another with Lord of Change and 3 units of 24 bloodletters?

I have never had a chance to play against Daemons (I don't play that often either). So my ideas are pure theoryhammer. I have a confidence in using Prince and his Knights against many tough targets. I believe he has a chance to destroy Lord of Change quickly. What is more, LoCh has flaming attacks, so Dragon Armour comes very handy. The priority would be then to catch it in hand to hand. Sending Dragon Princes to pin him down would be good idea too.

Bloodletters are tough but usual combined charges should see our units through. Our spears can deal a lot of damage against bloodletters I think. If you can add any other unit in combined charge, especially from the flank, then instability should destroy that unit. Just some theoryhammer :)

By the way, do you have a particular army list in mind other than units mentioned? What are the gifts and/or items on Lord of Change? What are other units in the army? What one should expect on 2400?

Curu Olannon wrote:
Great battle, wonderful report!

I also came from seredain's thread but I frequently visit this board as well so I would've come across this at some point ;) Unfortunately, way too few bother making a proper report like this. In my opinion, so much is lost without pictures/diagrams.

Thanks! I agree. I like reading battle reports, especially that I do not play much myself. However, I cannot follow them properly with text only so I wanted to add some help for somebody like me. Battlechronicler is a nice software which makes preparing maps and diagrams much easier. What is more with pictures or maps (or both!) there is no need to write as much. :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
- This battle highlights the weakness of the Seaguard. They are overpriced Spearelves and you're better off separating them into a unit of spears and one small unit of archers. This provides more bodies and you don't lose attacks (since 10 archers can deploy 5x2 and fight with just as many attacks as 10 seaguard).

Indeed, I am still considering replacing them with Spears and second unit of Archers. What I have found out is that in this edition combat starts early and as the only unit with many ranks, they are needed as fighters early. The thing is I painted around 30 of metal LSG and I really want to try to use that unit.

On the other hand I was also considering to replace Archers and LSG with two units of Speareleves. It all depends on individual preferences I guess and what you might need against different enemies. Against Vampire Counts in particular, shooting is not that effective as it is against other foe.

Curu Olannon wrote:
- Your swordmasters unit should be chipped down. Having all the expensive stuff in a unit that is relatively easy to avoid is hardly worth it. Make it a bare-bones unit of 10/14 swordmasters. Same goes for white lions, in my opinion. Use your spare points to beef these units.

Swordmasters are already "naked". There are 12 of them without even a musician. White Lions need their standard as it makes their attacks flamable and I must tell you that the enemy is very reluctant to send his otherwise nasty units close to them. Adding champion is more about adding extra attack on the same frontage. Since I plan to send White Lions against monsters that can be an advantage since not always you can attack them from the flank, while their frontage is narrower. Musician is there just because it is less expensive than single white lion and it is quite needed too.

Curu Olannon wrote:
- The Prince with his helmbus is amazing. This is nothing new, but it's worth noting that one unit of DP's and the helmbus create a LOT of dynamics on the table that your enemy is not used to coping with. I'm interested to see how my setup fares once I get 2k points done. Essentially my list is the same as these, but without a fighty lord and more focus on magic.

I must say that I really like this Prince as he is very consistent in his performance and his unit is very dangerous. His Knights are not only delivery system but can deal a few attacks on their own. I consider it as a nice bonus but you may count on inflicting an extra wound or two.

That is also true that two cavalry units make the whole battle much more dynamic. And that is also very important. Thanks to that movement phase is really about movement and setting up proper charges and not only moving forward against whatever was placed in front of your unit.

Curu Olannon wrote:
- With the archers and magic support, are 2 RBT really needed at 2-2500 points? I find myself asking in what situations an additional great eagle and more elites are not more useful. I think one backed up by a block or two of archers provide the support we need in most cases.

If you are rolling as poorly with your RBT as me then yes, you should consider replacing them :) Seriously though, I still think they are needed. I was actually talking with my VC opponent about it. His main army are Skaven, VC seems to be his next project and he is just testing some options before deciding on particular army list. He said that against his Skaven RBT would be much more useful (despite Strombanner) as they are very good at getting rid of weapon teams for instance. That is something extra bodies on elite units might not be enough against. I still believe I can use them better and that my luck withe them will be better too.

I might consider, however, a change of one RBT into something else. For example for second Great eagle and 3 more warriors as elites, provided the list has two units of archers as well. It is not easy decision. RBT are still dangerous and two of them are not simply a sum of more war machines. Overlapping arcs of fire are more irritating for the enemy, especially with heavy cavalry. Tough choices :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
Overall, this was a very interesting read. Thanks a million for taking the time to properly make the diagrams etc :)

No problem at all! As I said it helps me and I would like my reports (as rarely as they might appear) to be simply more fun to read. Actually, we had a rematch today so I plan to write a second report. :)

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Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:23 pm 
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Oh please do write another one! ;)

I must have mis-read the swordmasters since they're obviously naked ;) As for the Lions, I totally get your point, it's just that it's such an expensive unit considering its fragility.

How many games have you had with this list now? Did you try with the bsb grounded instead of mounted? I'm thinking it will hugely improve your infantry centre with the standard re-roll 2+ AS / GW build. A lot of times during this battle he was too far away to be of use. I can see him being on foot giving you a lot of options you don't have otherwise, since sending your Prince across the board doesn't take away your 'quarterback' ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:03 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
As for the Lions, I totally get your point, it's just that it's such an expensive unit considering its fragility.

It seems to be a trademark of Elves anyway :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
How many games have you had with this list now?

Only two. But third one is already scheduled :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
Did you try with the bsb grounded instead of mounted? I'm thinking it will hugely improve your infantry centre with the standard re-roll 2+ AS / GW build. A lot of times during this battle he was too far away to be of use. I can see him being on foot giving you a lot of options you don't have otherwise, since sending your Prince across the board doesn't take away your 'quarterback' ;)

I used to have pedestrian BSB in a unit of Spearelves or even Swordmasters. He indeed helps a lot but he is quite needed for the cavalry to make sure they are not delayed by unlucky rolls many other Ld tests. Sometimes you can fail that Ld10 roll to be able to march move or attack terror causing monster or simply to swift reform. He is also quite handy for accepting challenges of lesser heroes and help the princy to happily hack through rank and file. On the other hand, if the Prince accepts the challenge himself he can kill a few more enemy troops too. In general, having him with the Knights makes this unit expensive but very reliable and more devastating on the charge as well as in other rounds of combat.

It is a disadvantage to the whole plan that he is far away from main line. I think that the challenge lies in such a use of Knights that they perform flanking maneouver but are not too far away before they are needed. Unfortunately I am still not good at it and Gleaming Pennant is very useful indeed. The good thing is that the overall plan is still to get everybody to the centre so that the Prince and BSB are close enough to everybody who might need their presence.

Both options have their advantages and disadvantages and this is what is great about it. They remain options and you can use them as you see best for your army style.

Now, onto this second battle report writing :)

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:31 pm 
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Swordmaster,

Thanks for the tribute! Congratulations on the excellent report and the excellent win. I was worried when your swordmasters failed that combo charge (I hate it when that happens), but you played nicely and fully deserved the win. I liked the prince getting stuck in nice and early to do his thing- you had his unit dominate the field very well.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I used to have pedestrian BSB in a unit of Spearelves or even Swordmasters. He indeed helps a lot but he is quite needed for the cavalry to make sure they are not delayed by unlucky rolls many other Ld tests. Sometimes you can fail that Ld10 roll to be able to march move or attack terror causing monster or simply to swift reform. He is also quite handy for accepting challenges of lesser heroes and help the princy to happily hack through rank and file. On the other hand, if the Prince accepts the challenge himself he can kill a few more enemy troops too. In general, having him with the Knights makes this unit expensive but very reliable and more devastating on the charge as well as in other rounds of combat.

This is well put and a very good point to make. Even Ld 10 tests can be failed (and for marches etc you'll be taking them often), so, as you say, the re-roll makes this crucial unit just so reliable.

A word of warning about your white lions (and indeed any small elite unit). Having them run around by themselves is, generally speaking, a bad idea. Their job is to combine with another unit (or with your ranged firepower) against some part of the enemy army or, at least, to stay close enough to your own units so that they can offer, and receive, fighting support. If a small unit like that gets stuck out in the open it will (much like any infantry unit) get picked off - and quickly given its small size. If you're worried about things like varghulfs, a good way of defending against them is to place your white lions in a position to protect the varghulf's targets- if he engages, you counter. This way you're not having your infantry unit run around hopelessly after a flyer and finding itself stranded!

The same really goes for your repeaters. Try and place them where they're protected (on hills behind infantry or between infantry units), so things like dogs can't get them easily. I'd also usually deploy them relatively close together and fire against the same target (unless you're looking for single bolt flank shots against knights): this way you get better force concentration each turn. This makes your shooting more effective and also, therefore, allows them to defend themselves from attack by fast units. A volley from two repeaters will ruin 5 wolves with ease, saving them both and allowing them to move on to more valuable (slower) targets.

I guess the most important principle of playing lists like ours is to see your army as a single whole - not each deployment drop as a separate entity. In any case, you played well and I look forward to more reports!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:17 am 
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Greetings!

Fortunately for me an opportunity for a rematch presented itself quickly and I faced VC army again. My army was without any changes, while VC was as follows:

VC Army List

Vampire Lord - 3rd level, Summon Ghouls, Forbidden Lore, Master of the Black Arts, Helm of Commandment, Crown of the Damned, Earthling Rod (Vampiric Lore)
Vampire - Infinite Hatred, Ghoulkin, Flayed Hauberk, Sword of Swift Slaying (Invocation)
Wight King BSB - Banner of Barrows
Necromancer - Dispel Scroll (Invocation, Van Hels)

29 Ghouls with Ghast
28 Ghouls with Ghast
20 Ghouls with Ghast
5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves

30 Black Guard, Full Command, Great Weapon, Royal Standard of Strigos

Vargulf
Vargulf

Order of Deployment: Wolves, Wolves, Ghouls, Ghouls, Ghouls, Grave Guard, Vargulf, Vargulf

HE Army List

As I said my army was the same, with the same order of deployment. Archmage this time got: Throne of Vines, Shield of Thorns, Regrowth, The Dwellers Below

Deployment

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At the centre of the battlefield we had an Altar of Khaine, which gives frenzy to all units in 6" from it but during the course of battle no regiment was close enough to benefit from that. VC won the roll off and decided have first turn. Again we decided to play simple Battleline scenario.

VC Turn 1

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As usual undead horde sprints forward as if they were all fast cavalry!

Movement: Ghouls made their pre-battle movement and then marched even further. Grave Guard followed close behind. Wolves moved a little forward to keep up the pace. Vargulfs were a little shy to show up and decided to form up behind the main line. Vampire Lord changed his mind and moved from Ghouls to Grave Guard.

Magic: Van Hels was cast at Grave Guard so that they could stay closer to Ghouls. Other attempts to cast more spells failed or were dispelled.

HE Turn 1

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HE manoeuvre to obtain better flanking positions

Movement: Cavalry on the West moved forward to circle around the woods and set themselves for a position to attack from the back on the undead battle line. White Lions moved towards Ghouls to tempt them to charge so that they expose their flank to Swordmasters. They also moved slightly. Lothern Seaguard and Tiranoc Chariot moved forward too. Great Eagle landed in front of Ghouls on the West to prevent their charge next turn.

Magic: Winds of magic were very weak and the Archmage could not focus properly.

Shooting: LSG, Archers and both RBT's aimed at the central Ghouls to thin them down before they could enter the combat. Unfortunately only a few of them were killed by elven bolts and arrows.

VC Turn 2

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Vampire Lord orders his minions to attack!

Charges: Ghouls on the West fail to charge White Lions and simply enter the wood.

Movement: All units move forward with an exception of Wolves on the West which pulled back.

Magic: Two times Van Hels was cast with Irresistible Force. Ghouls charged into Archers while Grave Guard attacked Lothern Sea Guard. Vampire and Necromancer didn't suffer much of the consequences.

Combat: Archers fought as never and killed 7 Ghouls, lost 4 in return and surprisingly won the combat. Lother Seaguard, on the other hand suffered horrendous casualties. Only Insane Courage would keep them in combat. And they stayed! I rolled double 1' with the re-roll due to Gleaming Pennant. That was incredible! Great Eagle, however, died but Ghouls simply reformed instead of overruning.

HE Turn 2

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Elves counter-attack! Will it be enough to defeat Grave Guard?

Charges: Swordmasters and Tiranoc Chariot charge Grave Guard. Hopefully they will inflict enough damage to cripple that unit.

Movement: Silver Helms circle around woods to be able to attack Vargulfs. Dragon Princes move back towards the hard pressed centre of the elven battle line. White Lions move out of sight of Ghouls and keep hunting for Vargulfs.

Magic: Archmage manages to resurrect a few Lothern Seaguard.

Shooting: Repeaters aim at Vargulf but inflict only single wound.

Combat: Tiranoc Chariot inflicts 5 impact hits and all of them wound. Swordmasters are unstoppable and cut many Grave Guards. Unfortunately Lothern Seaguard suffers from returning attacks of Vampire Lord, BSB and remaining Grave Guard. In the end Elves win combat significantly but not enough to crumble their enemy. Archers keep fighting with Ghouls.

VC Turn 3

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Undead push again even harder

Charges: Ghouls on the West charge Dragon Princes who decided to flee from that combat. One Vargulf charged Swordmasters, while Ghouls and Dire Wolves charged Tiranoc Chariot. The situation looks grim for Elves.

Magic: Archmage fails to dispel Invocation on Grave Guard and their number starts to grow again, although they are still only around 10 models total. What is more, Van Hels is cast on them too, so they have Always Strike First ability. No re-rolls to hit for Elves this time.

Combat: Ghouls destroy Tiranoc Chariot while Grave Guard with Vampire and BSB kill all Lothern Seaguard. Swordmasters destroy only 4 Grave Guard, break from combat and are run down in pursuit by Vargulf. Other units reform. That was serious punch and Vampires seem to gain upper hand now.

HE Turn 3

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Elves keep fighting but will they be able to turn the tide of battle?

Charges: White Lions charged Grave Guard from the flank despite the presence of the nearby Ghouls, ready to avenge their fallen brethren.

Movement: The Prince with his Knights moves forward, he is late to aid his warriors but is he able to avenge them?

Magic: Throne of Vines is up but nothing more.

Shooting: Repeaters manage to inflict only two wounds on incoming Dire Wolves. That is not good at all.

Combat: This time Archers lose combat and break. Ghouls chase them down and run beyond the battlefield. White Lions smash through Grave Guard. They have now to avenge their Captain who accepted a challenge and was cut down by Wight King. They destroy all but one Grave Guard. In the end this warrior also crumbles due to combat resolution. Only Vampire Lord and his BSB remain in that fight.

VC Turn 4

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Undead keep charging!

Charges: Dire Wolves charge RBT and Archmage. Vargulf attacks Dragon Princes. Ghouls charge White Lions. A lot of important combats again.

Magic: Vampire Lord manages to heal himself then casts Van Hals on Ghouls with Irresistible Force and they charge RBT with Archmage. Most unfortunate for Elves. As a consequence BSB gets second wound.

Combat: The RBT crew slays two wolves, while Ghouls fail to wound Archmage even once! White Lions fight ferociously. First they kill Wight King! Then four White Lions strike Vampire Lord and inflict no less than 3 wounds. Vampire Lord then fails to save even single one with his 4+ ward save! Attacking Ghouls kill some of them but they pass their stubborn break test. It seems like White Lions manage to turn the tide all by themselves! Vargulf manages to kill only one Dragon Prince and gets one wound in return. Elven Knights hold.

HE Turn 4

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Cavalry charge, at last!

Charges: The Prince with his Knights charge Ghouls, with White Lions fighting from the front it should be short work.

Magic: Archmage casts Shield at Ghouls he is fighting and resurrects 6 White Lions!

Shooting: Remaining Repeater kills 4 Dire Wolves. This is how they should be shooting all game!

Combat: Dragon Princes and Vargulf fail to wound each other and they keep fighting. Dire Wolf in combat with RBT and Archmage is destroyed, while Ghouls fail to kill Archmage yet again and he passes his break test. As expected, White Lions and Cavalry completely destroy Ghouls. Knights overrun while White Lions reform to face Vargulf.

VC Turn 5

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It seems undead lost again but how many more Elves have to sacrifice their lives to banish vampire minions for good?

Charges: Ghouls returning to battle after chasing down the archers charge White Lions. Unfortunately for them Vargulf fails to join the fight.

Combat: Ghouls alone are no match for White Lions, many of them are killed outright while the rest crumbles to dust. Archmage is finally killed but remaining RBT crew member holds. Dragon Princes manage to inflict two wounds on Vargulf who misses his attacks, loses combat and is destroyed in the process. At this moment VC player concedes. Another victory for High Elves but after very bloody battle and with the aid of some incredible luck!

Comments

I must admit I was outplayed this time and only due to very unlucky rolls on my opponent part and some very lucky rolls on my part I managed to emerge victorious. Let me summarize my observations in points, not necessary in any particular order.

1. Without Black Coach and with addition of 2 Power Dice VC army has a very powerful magic phase. In that case it is important to plan accordingly, i.e. at least one movement spell is going to be cast. 3 Irresistible Force didn't help either.

2. My deployment could be much better. I think Dragon Princes would be much more useful on the East. The whole ride around the woods with the Prince and his Knights was taking definitely too long.

3. I was extremely lucky in the following:

- Insane Courage on LSG - they lost combat in the end but helped Swordmasters to significantly decrease the number of Grave Guard and in the end White Lions managed to finish them off.

- Archers fighting Ghouls for so long - especially in the first round when they killed 7 of the enemy and held for a few subsequent combats.

- Ghouls not being able to kill Archmage - that was my grievous mistake, I should have moved him away, I am really surprised he survived for so long.

- Killing Vargulf while losing only single Dragon Prince - what can I say more?

4. I have made some important mistakes, fortunately for me they didn't cost me the battle but I must strive not to make them again.

5. I need to be more careful with deployment. In particular I need to be able to charge as soon as possible against such quickly moving foe.

I am sure there is more but this is what I can point out now. I hope you enjoyed this battle report as the game itself was tense and with many turning points. It was also much harder for me to pull off than the first one. If it happens that we play third game (quite likely) I may post another battle report.

Thanks for reading!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:26 am 
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Thanks for your sound advice, Seredain! I guess I made some mistakes you warned me about in my second battle. I will be more careful next time. :)

I must admit that despite some hard time I enjoy playing this list a lot. I hope to have more opportunities to use it, also against other opponents.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:11 pm 
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Hello!

We had yet another battle between VC and HE. I hope you are not bored with reports of the same armies but I think it is still good to have a look at them. My VC opponent is learning fast but sometimes learning from your own mistakes is the best way to do it. :) There is one more (last one) battle in our Vampire Wars. It took all 6 rounds to finish and it was undecided until almost last dice roll (literally!).

Vampire Wars - Battle 3

There were a few tweaks in VC army list but as it was played before David L gave his very helpful recommendations these were not yet implemented. Lvl.1 Vampire changed his Sword of Swift Slaying for Sword of Might. I will check later if there was anything else significant.

On my part I decided to try out another set of my core troops and fielded 30 Spearelves with full command and Gleaming Pennant and two units of 12 Armoured Archers (one with musician, the other with standard bearer). My Archmage got a very nice selection of spells with Flesh to Stone, Throne, Shield and Regrowth.

Another Battleline scenario, with Altar of Khain in the centre of the battlefield.

Deployment

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Armies assembled and ready for round 3 of Vampire Wars

As usual VC won the roll-off and they took first turn (as a side note I tend to plan my battles as if I always were to move second. I seem to always lose that roll-off. The only exceptions are Bretonnians :)).

VC Turn 1

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As expected undead horde move forward as fast as possible

Movement: After initial pre-battle move Ghouls form battleline in the middle of the table. Grave Guard follows close behind. Vargulf shift slightly towards the East.

Magic: I believe only single VanHels was cast this turn, moving Grave Guard closer to the Ghouls. Other than that 3 lvl. Vampire was not able to pass through Archmage defenses. On the other hand the Vampire Lord managed to summon some Ghouls to the small unit. Always good to have more of them.

HE Turn 1

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HE Prince orders his best units for a devastating charge

Charges: Taking the opportunity HE charge all three Ghoul units. Elite infantry and Cavalry draw both Vampires into combat with a hope that their multitudes of attacks can inflict such a damage that they all crumble to dust (actually I hoped for Swrodmasters to be free to overrun into the flank of the third unit of Ghouls). While at the same time the Knights charged Ghouls in their front. (If Swordmasters were to overrun I would be able to destroy third unit of Ghouls in single round of combat too. Difficult but possible).

Movement: Chariot, Great Eagle and Spears moved to the East to protect the flank.

Magic: Archmage managed to toughen up White Lions but Shield and Throne were dispelled.

Shooting: Despite hiding behind woods Dire Wolves were destroyed by combined fire from Archers and Repeaters.

Combat: Massive combat erupted and Ghouls were cut in huge numbers. Fortunately for undead their Vampires killed some HE too. In the end all three units kept fighting but all were reduced to less than 10 models each. Another round, especially magic phase, will be crucial for VC as they desperately need to repeair the horrendous damage done by Elven elites.

VC Turn 2

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VC desperately try to get up from the powerful punch they received in previous turn

Charges: Vargulf charges into the fight with Knights to hold them down. Dire Wolves attack the Chariot.

Movement: Grave Guard moves forward to charge the Knights following turn. Second Vargulf moves on the hill.

Magic: Tough decisions to make for a VC Lord. He needs to resurrect as many Ghouls as possible but he has some means to inflict damage to Elves before that. He chooses to cast VanHels on Vargulf. However, the big monster cannot charge (that was a little awkward situation, Vargulf saw Swordmasters but was positioned so he could not reach them provided he could make only single wheel during the charge) and instead runs next to Knights and Swordmasters. Then Vampire Lord casts Wind of Undeath to steal some precious life from Elves and he does so with Irresistible Force! Two bases of Spirit Host appear in front of the Repeaters. Unfortunately for undead Vampire Lord vanishes in a big explosion, taking some more Ghouls and Elves with him! (That was unlucky for VC. First roll on miscast table was 11 but fearing the loss of D3 levels he used his Earthling Rod and then rolled 4, which had much more devastating consequences).

Combat: All units of Ghouls were destroyed. Vargulf was hacked to pieces by the Prince and BSB (additional attacks due to frenzy thanks to Alter proximity were quite handy). The Knights reformed and faced second Vargulf. Vampire Hero managed to finish off Dragon Princes but was locked in combat with White Lions. Dire Wolves inflict a single wound on the Chariot, with none in returned and broke it. However, it was not cought in pursuit stopping half an inch from the edge of the border.

HE Turn 2

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The fight continues.

Charges: The Knights charge nearby Vargulf. Archers with Standard charge Spirit Host (they lost a wound or two after Vampire Lord perished) with hope to destroy them due to combat resolution.

Movement: The chariot rallies and Spears shift towards the canter and remain close to the Altar to benefit from additional attacks due to frenzy.

Magic: An attempt to resurrect White Lions failed.

Shooting: Remaining Dire Wolves were killed by well aimed salvos of Repeaters.

Combat: Another Vargulf died and Knights reformed to face Grave Guard. Archers lost 2 of their numbers but won combat. Still not enough to crumble the Ghosts. Vampire Hero finished off remaining White Lions (If I recall correctly he made all his 5+ saves) .

VC Turn 3

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VC try to fight back but their doom is inevitable.

Charges: Lone Vampire charges Archers fighting Spirit Hosts. There is Archmage in that unit so it is worthy trying to break them. Grave Guard charge Swordmasters.

Magic: An attempt to heal Spirit Hosts by Vampire Hero was easily dispelled by Archmage.

Combat: Swordmasters kill many Grave Guards (I believe it was around 8, almost maximum they could destroy with their 10 attacks) but remaining Grave Guard utterly destroy valiant Elves. Their pursuit move is to short to get them into Silver Helms though. Archers prepared to receive charging Vampire and to our both surprise they kill him outright! (two wounds, two 1's for armour save, must have been some poor copy of Flayed Hauberk) However, Spirit Hosts are still there.

HE Turn 3

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Final round "Finish Him!" :)

Charges: Silver Helms charge Grave Guard and second unit of Archers charges Spirit Hosts from the other flank.

Movement: Just shifting units around.

Magic: I am not sure which spells I cast but they were not changing much.

Combat: The Knights finished off remaining Grave Guard. As a small reward a killing blow was inflicted upon HE BSB but that obviously was not enough to save Grave Guard or their Wight King. Spirit Hosts crumbled to dust. With last unit destroyed HE claimed yet another victory.

Comments

I must admit I was very pleased with my deployment and ability to use the opportunity for such a massive charge. This is an important thing to notice that HE elites, even in such small units can still charge many foe from the front and win by large margin, provided they do it together. I don't know what the odds were for me to finish off two units of Ghouls in single round but it was definitely worth it. I obviously wonder what would have happened if Vampire Lord hadn't perished. It all depended on how strong his magic phase would be. But he had 3 significantly damaged units, while Elves more or less kept their combat ability to inflict more damage next round. What is more Elves still had intact shooting and Spearelves with Chariot as reserves. That was very unlucky to re-roll miscast effect from the one which was quite bad into something even worse. The fact that Archers killed Vampire Hero in combat was also very lucky on my part (I could have lost that Archmage). Fear not, this ability to roll double 1's is not always that handy as you will see in part 4. :)

Thanks for reading!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:47 am 
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I do love these reports, they are technical but with some story elements, and the diagrams are great.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:13 am 
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Another great report! Don't you worry, we won't grow tired ;) On the contrary, I love these!

A couple of notes: I find your movement in the first phase kind of strange. Knowing that all your charges worked, I'm curious as to why you didn't center your spears and move your archers up. The TC could have moved further left to cover the SH right flank, with the GE blocking the wolves' charge path to the chariot (if needed).

With the archers and spears up the middle the ghouls would've been in big trouble regardless of the magic phase and the grave guard bunker would face a potential 50+ elves to fight. As it turned out, I believe your archers were 'underplayed'. Normally, their role is to hang back and provide cover, however with your aggressive charges I think following up with archers here would've been perfect. Also, with the spearelves centered you would have had a complete battleline even if your elites faltered.

What do you think about your manoeuvres in hindsight?

Apart from that, I must say you played a very nice game! I am surprised though that even with minimal magic support you managed to drop 3 big units in one turn. Granted, you had half your points engaged in close combat (roughly?) against fairly little, but those fights utterly destroyed him. I don't know what he could've done differently - perhaps set up a unit as a decoy or something so you couldn't have smashed the entire line at once.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:01 am 
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Tiralya wrote:
I do love these reports, they are technical but with some story elements, and the diagrams are great.

Thanks! I am not much of a story teller so better to give you all the details properly. :) I must also admit that these diagrams help a lot to refresh my memory. I create them first and then add some text. Takes some time but I believe it is worthy. At least I have a nice chronicle of my own battles. :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
Another great report! Don't you worry, we won't grow tired ;) On the contrary, I love these!

Thanks! That is great! I really appreciate it and it is even better when you post your comments. It is very important as me and my opponent can still learn a lot from what other players may spot while we didn't. So don't feel shy and just write what you think. :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
A couple of notes: I find your movement in the first phase kind of strange. Knowing that all your charges worked, I'm curious as to why you didn't center your spears and move your archers up. The TC could have moved further left to cover the SH right flank, with the GE blocking the wolves' charge path to the chariot (if needed).


It would be great to destroy all Ghouls in one go but I wanted to cover my eastern flank, as western was secure and no danger was coming from there. Provided his next magic phase didn't heal his units too much I would break through and then would have freedom to charge again. It worked this way, although with a bonus of spectacular explosion which took Vampire Lord. Spears were to shy away second Vargulf (which they did) as I could deal with him with my remaining fighting units. I wanted his Wolves to attack my chariot as with ASF crew, more wounds and Armour Save as well as additional attack of the horsies I though it could defeat them alone. Just in case I sent an Eagle for a flank charge if TC could not deal enough wounds. Unfortunately TC fled but in the end it all worked well as I had a back up in the form of my RBT's.

Curu Olannon wrote:
With the archers and spears up the middle the ghouls would've been in big trouble regardless of the magic phase and the grave guard bunker would face a potential 50+ elves to fight. As it turned out, I believe your archers were 'underplayed'. Normally, their role is to hang back and provide cover, however with your aggressive charges I think following up with archers here would've been perfect. Also, with the spearelves centered you would have had a complete battleline even if your elites faltered.

That is very interesting suggestion and I think it would be even better than what I did. Especially if his VL kept fighting. I agree that my archers could play more active. I often use them in hand-to-hand and my VC opponent even told me that they are more like Swordmasters in disguise sometimes. :D Creating second line would protect my RBT's even better and second Vargulf was still too far away to attack my firebase. What is more, as you probably have already noticed, in later turn Spears were in no position to join the fight. I had to choos should I charge Grave Guard with the Knights alone or should I position them on the flank, treat them with Spears and shoot at them one more round. If I moved Spears the way you said I would have them in perfect position for a flank attack already.

Curu Olannon wrote:
What do you think about your manoeuvres in hindsight?

Out of 3 battles I think this one was the best simply due to better deployment. However, I always try to see any better option and I greatly appreciate your comments above as that would definitely help me control the outcome even better and would also mean planning for bad luck.:)

Curu Olannon wrote:
Apart from that, I must say you played a very nice game! I am surprised though that even with minimal magic support you managed to drop 3 big units in one turn. Granted, you had half your points engaged in close combat (roughly?) against fairly little, but those fights utterly destroyed him. I don't know what he could've done differently - perhaps set up a unit as a decoy or something so you couldn't have smashed the entire line at once.

HE elites hit very hard. Only the presence of VC characters saved them. It really looks like the opening scene from Lord of the Rings, with a difference that this time Elves were attacking. I really believe that aggressive approach is required against VC. They cannot cast that nasty movement spell if they have their units in combat. :)

As to what he could have done better you will see in detail next round (final unfortunately, as VC finish they 2 week visit and will depart to their coast :)). Just to give you some highlights it will see VL lvl. 4, Grave Guard deployed 7 models wide and their Whight King leaving the banner at home and getting some nice armour instead. Oh! And wolves will not show up, replaced with some bats. :) It might take some time to write it up as we fought full 6 turns. So try to be patient. :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:48 pm 
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Hey hey! That went better didn't it? Deployment was good and it was also good to see you thinking about keeping those units which were out the fight ready to offer support. Also loving the aggression! It was excellent imagining that great charge mincing ghouls into little pieces. You seem to be learning alot with each game (repeater deployment was good in this last game), and that's a good omen for your future games. It's a fun list to play, isn't it?

Loving the reports - keep it up.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:37 pm 
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Yes, it is great fun to play with and I had not doubt about it. :) I like the challenge because this army, as you said many times, has to use its components carefully. And when one cannot make it happen then it can also fall apart quickly. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:44 pm 
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I somehow missed this thread - why was I not informed? :)

I really like the reports so far, so keep 'em coming! The battlechronicaler format is really clear and the way you structure your explanation of the different phases of the battle only adds to that clarity. You've got just enough storyline interwoven that it doesn't feel sterile or overly technical, and it doesn't confuse the issue either - no complaints at all.

The first two reports were real nail-biters, for reasons Seredain pointed out. The White Lions last stand really highlighted why I like them - they either munch things, or die spectacularly well while holding their ground. You left some of your critical elements unguarded, which can be great as bait if you're also prepared to for a quick counter or some kind of interdiction. The second battle-line in particular was very spread out and I'm surprised it went as well as it did - you definitely took a rocky foundation and pulled it out well despite that! You seem to have enough talent in movement to quickly make up for that.

The decision to take out the LSG was a bit painful for me, as its the one thing you've got in common with my list! Having them near the back as a central pivot point for the rest of your army is just what I was talking about, but I think for your play style, Spearelves may be a better decision. Sometimes I think you may be a bit impatient - you seem blow the horn for the charge just a turn earlier than I would have, but then again, its a very fast enemy army - and because of that, I think the archers and spear route may indeed be better for you. In the first two games, I think their role as missile support and late game sweeper was cut short by Van Hel's - I think against many other lists they would have performed much better, but you certainly made the correct decision in charging with them.

I was really surprised when you suddenly charged all your line forward into the enemy in the third game - my mouth literally dropped when I scrolled down! Your cavalry block wasn't in support yet and the enemy were still in an organized battle-line and it was a really surprising play. Again, I can't help but feel you're being a bit impatient, like the speed of your enemy is intimidating you into early charges. Then again, I may be reading it wrong and you might just be a Patton type at heart!

Finally, I'm not seeing the Tiranoc Chariot doing much. Perhaps deploy it closer to your battle line, or intermixed with it? It seems to fly out on the far side of the cavalry and then gets stranded quickly. Are you worried about it running over your own troops if you fail a combat?

Great battles though and I look forward to seeing more! Skype me if you post another, so I don't miss it again!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:42 pm 
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~Milliardo~ wrote:
I somehow missed this thread - why was I not informed? :)

My apologies, I assumed that you have already read it as a regular member of this forum. :)

~Milliardo~ wrote:
I really like the reports so far, so keep 'em coming! The battlechronicaler format is really clear and the way you structure your explanation of the different phases of the battle only adds to that clarity. You've got just enough storyline interwoven that it doesn't feel sterile or overly technical, and it doesn't confuse the issue either - no complaints at all.

Thanks! I have read many reports so far so I guess I also learned from them about how to write on myself too :)

~Milliardo~ wrote:
The first two reports were real nail-biters, for reasons Seredain pointed out. The White Lions last stand really highlighted why I like them - they either munch things, or die spectacularly well while holding their ground. You left some of your critical elements unguarded, which can be great as bait if you're also prepared to for a quick counter or some kind of interdiction. The second battle-line in particular was very spread out and I'm surprised it went as well as it did - you definitely took a rocky foundation and pulled it out well despite that! You seem to have enough talent in movement to quickly make up for that.

In my opinion I often spend enough time to prepare the attack but not that much in terms of position units for mutual support. I also have problems with anticipating some movements opportunities I may create for my opponent in my own movement phase. I am still learning how to create that second line properly and as you saw I tend to spread my line too much having probably too much confidence I can move around my units quickly. It is not the case often and while I won these battles there were many situations when unlucky rolls of VC player did help me to either hold or even destroy his units. Need to be more careful :)

~Milliardo~ wrote:
The decision to take out the LSG was a bit painful for me, as its the one thing you've got in common with my list! Having them near the back as a central pivot point for the rest of your army is just what I was talking about, but I think for your play style, Spearelves may be a better decision.

It was hard decision indeed but I simply wanted to check what choice of core troops is going to work better for me. I am afraid this removed the only difference I had from Seredain's list and it is simply a copy-paste situation. I still believe though, that thanks to that experience I will come up with a nice idea of my own. :)

~Milliardo~ wrote:
Sometimes I think you may be a bit impatient - you seem blow the horn for the charge just a turn earlier than I would have, but then again, its a very fast enemy army - and because of that, I think the archers and spear route may indeed be better for you. In the first two games, I think their role as missile support and late game sweeper was cut short by Van Hel's - I think against many other lists they would have performed much better, but you certainly made the correct decision in charging with them.

Well, that is possible that I am too eager to send my units to fight. And also the reason why LSG didn't perform in the more defensive way they might be very good at. I have not given up them yet. Hopefully I will have some opportunities to test both solutions against other armies.

~Milliardo~ wrote:
I was really surprised when you suddenly charged all your line forward into the enemy in the third game - my mouth literally dropped when I scrolled down! Your cavalry block wasn't in support yet and the enemy were still in an organized battle-line and it was a really surprising play. Again, I can't help but feel you're being a bit impatient, like the speed of your enemy is intimidating you into early charges. Then again, I may be reading it wrong and you might just be a Patton type at heart!

Haha! That was a good one :) You could be right about it. I do like to charge and I like cavalry a lot. Even in RomeTW playing Greeks or Seleucids I relied more on militia horseman than on phalanx to win my battles :) I have no problem with moving units around to get a better position for a charge but I do not feel good when they are stationary. Maybe that is a mistake of a sort, I don't know.

~Milliardo~ wrote:
Finally, I'm not seeing the Tiranoc Chariot doing much. Perhaps deploy it closer to your battle line, or intermixed with it? It seems to fly out on the far side of the cavalry and then gets stranded quickly. Are you worried about it running over your own troops if you fail a combat?

Actually, I completely forgot about this rule! In any case I have a little trouble now how to use it the best. I used to run an army with two chariots but back then they were positioned on the wings of my Silver Helms and I simply charged three of them against anybody who faced them. Even if something managed to hold against such charge (I am still speaking about 7th or even 6th editions), they secured flanks of the cavalry. Now I am supposed to team them with different units accordingly but I see myself I haven't done that properly yet.

~Milliardo~ wrote:
Great battles though and I look forward to seeing more! Skype me if you post another, so I don't miss it again!

Sure thing! :)

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High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:31 pm 
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Hello!

This is a last report from our Vampire Wars. As you already know wardancer won this one so hopefully it will be even more interesting than previous three. :) I was really concerned you might find them boring. The same armies, similar deployments etc. Wardancer changed his army slightly, mainly in terms of magic toys but also wanted to try out some Fell Bats instead of Dire Wolves. One of the characters carried Cursed Book too, I think it was Vampire Lord. I will ask wardancer to double check this army list in case I made some mistakes.

VC Army

Vampire Lord - Additional level (so lvl. 4 in total) Summon Ghouls, Forbidden Lore, Master of the Black Arts, Dark Acolyte, Crown of the Damned, Earthling Rod (Vampiric Lore)
Vampire - Infinite Hatred, Ghoulkin, Flayed Hauberk, Sword of Might, Luck Stone (Invocation, Rise Dead)
Wight King BSB - Valach's Bloody Hauberk
Necromancer - Dispel Scroll (Van Hels)

29 Ghouls with Ghast
28 Ghouls with Ghast
20 Ghouls with Ghast

4 Fell Bats
30 Black Guard, Full Command, Great Weapon, Banner of Barrows

2 x Vargulf

Deployment

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Well known deployment :)

HE spread their lines in hope that VC will try to get to their fighting units ignoring shooters. VC deployed as usual but with Grave Guard changing formation for 7 wide. As usual VC won the roll-off and chose to move first.

VC Turn 1

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Yet another Ghoul sprint.

Movement: As always VC used their first turn to close the distance as quickly as possible but this time Vampire Lord was aware to hold his formation in proper line.

Magic: Just the usual VanHels to keep their formation close together. Other than that nothing more as it is hard to expect much from the first turn.

HE Turn 1

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Setting up flanking charges

Movement: It didn't look like VC took the bait and didn't want to face any units on HE flanks. Despite that HE moved their regiments on both flanks for charges from both sides next turn. Especially cavalry looked eager to get to Grave Guard early in the battle. Great Eagle landed in front of the western Ghouls to divert them and draw them into a trap. Archmage moved with combat units forward.

Magic: This time Archmage didn't have such a nice selection of spells, missing Throne and Regrowth. His attempt to toughen up Swordmasters was dispelled.

Shooting: Repeaters opened fire on FellBats and scored many wounds so that only two of them remained (and one wounded too). Archers could not see the bats so opened fire on the eastern Ghouls and also scored some hits.

VC Turn 2

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Undead charge on all fronts.

Charges: There is only one normal charge. Fell Bats fly straight towards the western repeater.

Movement: Western Ghouls ignored Great Eagle and reformed to face White Lions and Dragon Princes. Other Ghouls kept approaching towards Archers. Grave Guard, as true elite they are, reformed swiftly and marched towards Silver Helms at full speed.

Magic: Now the real charges started. Vampire Lord read his Cursed Book and cast VanHels as many times as possible. In the end he managed to send eastern Ghouls to fight with Archers, while Grave Guard attacked the Knights. HE Prince ordered them to feign retreat but that meant that Grave Guard could redirect into Swordmasters. They also decided to move back. Grave Guard formed in the middle of the dangerous terrain.

Combat: Repeater crew killed one Fell Bat and wounded another, not recieving any in return so their enemy crumbled. Ghouls killed a score of Archers but they held. VC definitely took the initiative this time.

HE Turn 2

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HE counter attack but their plan does not work as they wanted.

Charges: There were a few options for High Elves how to counter attack and regain initiative. Spearelves could charge Ghouls fighting Archers or hit the flank of Grave Guard. White Lions and Dragon Princes could charge through the woods and block western Ghouls. But then there was much more rewarding opportunity. The one which could end up the game quicker for HE. So the order was to charge central Ghoul unit with White Lions and Eagle from one flank, Archers from the front and Spearelves from the other flank. This should generate so many attacks that the undead regiment would disappear with Vampire Lord in one turn. Unfortunately, Spearelves didn't make it. (I needed to roll 5 and rolled 4 :() Tiranoc Chariot charged into eastern Ghouls already fighting Archers.

Movement: Dragon Princes moved around to get into the rear of undead army (they could not get past eastern Ghouls). Swordmasters and Knights rallied.

Magic: Again any attempts to cast some spells failed.

Shooting: Insignificant :/

Combat: The chariot inflicted only a single impact hit. Not good. HE lost the combat but held. Vampire Lord fought in the challenge with White Lion champion who inflicted a single wound on him and kept fighting. White Lions destroyed plenty of Ghouls but Archers lost significant numbers too. The combat was won by HE but by small margin only. The support of Spearelves was needed a lot.

VC Turn 3

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VC push further against separated units of HE army

Charges: Grave Guard charged Silver Helms. This time they held and before combat Grave Guard lost 4 of their numbers due to dangerous terrain test. One Vargulf charged into that combat too.

Movement: Second Vargulf moved to the flank of the now engaged elven Knights. Western Ghouls charged into the flank of White Lions.

Magic: Second Vargulf is Vanhelsed into combat with elven Knights.

Combat: White Lion champion inflicts second wound on Vampire lord but he and his unit were killed. The eagle and archers fled. The Prince and his Knights destroyed many Grave guards but in the end only he and his BSB remained. The easily passed the break test.

HE Turn 3

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HE try to fight back.

Charges: Swordmasters charge into the flank of Grave Guard. Spearelves again fail their charge :(

Movement: Dragon Princes set themselves up for charges next turn (if possible).

Magic: Still nothing :(

Shooting: Nothing special I am afraid. It looks like repeaters could uleash some volley on Ghouls but might be that I confused the order of fights and repeaters were already destroyed.

Combat: Swordmasters cut Grave Guard to pieces but they still managed to inflict killing blow on BSB before they turn into dust. Swordmasters overrun into Vargulf. Archers and chariot kept fighting.

VC Turn 4

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VC clean up the flank

Charges: Unengaged Vargulf charges into Swordmasters. Central Ghouls charge Archers.

Movement: Western Ghouls reform.

Magic: Some Ghouls were rised back to keep fighting.

Combat: Swordmasters wound Vargulf only once and are destroyed by rampaging beasts. Ghouls finish Archers and chase down broken chariot. It seems that VC are on their road to victory.

HE Turn 4

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HE keep fighting with little force they have left

Charges: Prince charges one of the Vargulfs.

Movement: Spearelves reform so they can face Ghouls from the front. Great Eagle lands to protect Spearelves flank, while Dragon Princes moved forward to be in range for a charge.

Magic: Nothing. Depressing indeed.

Combat: The Prince killed Vargulf and overrun into second one.

VC Turn 5

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VC close in to finish off HE

Charges: Ghouls charge the eagle and Spearelves.

Movement: Remaining Ghouls move to the flank of the Spearelves.

Magic: Not much this time for a change. :)

Combat: As expected great eagle was killed in combat. Spears managed to destroy Ghouls (mainly due to the fact the other Ghoul didn't make it into the combat during magic phase). The Prince wounded Vargulf many times but it regenerated all of it.

HE Turn 5

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HE are not finished yet and hit back!

Charges: Dragon Princes and Spearelves charge Ghouls.

Magic: Still not much.

Combat: HE kill a lot of Ghouls but not enough to crumble them all. Spearelves lose contact with them though and reformed. (I have made a very stupid mistake now. I wanted to face both units but completely ignored the fact remaining unit is going to move and then charge :/). The Prince still could not finish Vargulf.

VC Turn 6

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It looks like the VC are going to finish HE in the end

Movement: Remaining Ghouls move to the flank of Spearelves.

Magic: It was all about getting Vanhels through and Vampire Lord got it done eventually.

Combat: Spearelves didn't lost many but since Ghouls had more ranks they were not steadfast anymore and could pass their break test only on double 1's. Unfortunately they didn't make it this time. The fled and were caught in pursuit. :( The Prince finally finished off the beast. Dragon Princes died too.

HE Turn 6

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One more gamble left for HE

Magic: With all units gone HE could only do something with their magic. There were two spells to cast. Dwellers and Awakening. The plan was to cast the first spell and then have enough dice to break through VC defenses and snipe Vampire Lord with Awakening. What happened is Irresistible Force in the first case. I depleted the number of Ghouls. As a consequence remaining power dice were lost (I rolled 4 on Miscast Table and fortunately I didn't send my Archmage to the afterlife).

With that last gamble the game was over and this time VC emerged bloodied but victorious.

Comments

Well, this battle didn't go that well as previous ones :) Battle number 3 was relatively fast so we immediately fought another one. :) I can only admire Wardancer for his will to fight and not losing hope for victory :) He listened to his advisors (thank you very much David L.! :)) and his magic was much stronger, sometimes almost unstoppable. He used the fact HE army was spread too much and defeated it piece by piece. A few more comments on my part.

1. I wanted to see if I can move around Ghouls ablative armour and charge behind their lines. I didn't anticipate though that Grave Guard can execute such a brilliant move. It really caught me off guard. I still do not know if it was good idea to flee. Grave Guard was still at their full strength (not like later on). On the other hand if I hold even with Prince and BSB I would destroy them as I did later with Swordmasters and had better position.

2. I still wonder if I should have risked that combo-charge when Spearelves failed their charge. I mean I could have a safe charge on Ghouls fighting Archers, destroy them and reform for later combat without losing the centre. At the same time there was a safe charge on western Ghouls with White Lions and Dragon Princes. They would keep fighting for two turns and with Spears and Chariot on the other side they might finish them off eventually.

3. I also wanted to try to force VC to move towards me on a longer route but I guess in order to do that I should have placed Archers in the center and then my other units on eastern flank with refused western flank. I could have separated repeaters too and position them on each hill. It was safe to do without Dire Wolves on board.

4. I was a little unlucky with failed charge of Spearelves and a single impact hit of a chariot. I wanted to go for a big prize and to my surprise I didn't fail much longer charge with White Lions. This basically means I need to take into account such situations and position my units so they can support each other better.

5. This game is also a good example of what can happen to my army if units do not support each other properly. They can still deal some damage but in the end will fight for two turns and they are gone.

6. That was quite unexpected to fight 4 rounds and I enjoyed Vampire Wars greatly. I hope I will have some more opportunities to use this army against different armies. There is still a lot for me to learn. :)

Thanks for reading!

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High Elves MSU - Observations

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:55 am 
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Immediately when I saw your deployment I thought of it as a very bold move. You are not really afraid of him outflanking you, and as such you're taking a big risk when you put your fastest and hardest troops on your own flanks against a fast army. From his deployment you know that he'll be very much a 'point-and-click' kind of guy in this game, and as such you can counter by placing your hard units in the center.

As it turned out, your center collapsed and this cost you the game. Notice how many turns some of your hard and fast units spend out of combat. Granted, it's nice that they're fast, but it's in combat they will make a toll. Your center is super-weak and due to the compact nature of these fights, even your main battle block (Spearelves) are left awkwardly out of combat at the crucial times. Ideally, you want them in the midst of it, supported on either side by hard units.

What happens is that he breaks through and your units are spent trying to cover up. There is a complete lack of synergy at this point and your army quickly takes a hard beating, only the very toughest survive. Even the Helms are in an awkward position where they have to flee from combat - not something you'd like from such an expensive unit!

So - what do I believe you could've done differently? Firstly, I would've deployed the spears directly in front of the RBT to your right, creating a solid center. On the left flank here, you're not really worried about anything since there's so little room. I suppose the swordmasters would fit here, maybe an eagle or the chariot as well. The thing is, if he commits to this side you can sweep his other side with 2x cavalry and all your characters. If he doesn't, well then your swordmasters and a chariot should be enough power to make him think twice about crashing into your spears. If he does and you flank him, you could very well have the swordmasters cut down 2 full units of ghouls in one single round of combat.

On the other flank, a solid unit needs to be close to the spears. Lions or Helms can fulfil this role. With what's left now, you can pretty much deploy the archers for counter-attacks and have the rest of your units cover the eastern approach. As I said before, you're not really worried about him outflanking you since his 4 main combat units are going to go dead ahead. If they don't his middle will crumble and you can capitalize heavily on your mobility.

Ok, so given your deployment I would've tried to bolster my center in my first turn. Your eagle is very nicely placed, but I believe the Spears should move inwards, along with the chariot. This opens up for your swordmasters to pose themselves directly to his flank, should he charge your spears. This in turn gives your helms more room which means they probably won't be charged - even with Van Hel's! Also the DP's and WL's should have been way closer. I know you tried a bold move. Essentially you tried to squeeze him in between your two pincers. Problem was, he opened up an escape route - straight through your center! This killed pretty much all of your support and let him dictate the flow of battle too much. Such a bold move might have worked against Warriors of Chaos for example, but hardly against such a fast army.

I realize I might sound a little harsh now, and that is not my intention at all, so I apologize if I do. I am merely trying to give my thoughts on the battle. Overall, I think you did very well in these fights and probably learned tons! I am very glad you took all the hours to document it for all of us to read in such a nice and clean format, thanks a million :)

As to your style of play - it appears you are somewhat impatient and pre-occupied with movement whereas support units seem to be given less of an important role, compared to e.g. Seredain's style of play. As such I would advice you to pick up some more fast and expendable units, while making anvils real anvils, not jack-of-all-trades as your Lions are now. For example, you could ditch an RBT to bolster your Lions and add an Eagle. This would make it easier to form a battleline (spears and lions acting as anvils) and you could still move a lot of fast units - which enables you to envelope the enemy forces. The diagram at the turn of your turn 1 is pretty impressive if you view it from a non-unit related point of view. You basically have his entire army trapped, and with the proper units there is no way out of it - even for van hel's vampires ;) Re-arranging the elements a little, you could very possibly achieve this with High Elves. I'm even thinking you should consider having your General on foot as a fighty prince in an anvil, reducing the points invested in the cavalry element which you're so happy to send away to dominate a flank. I believe, the way you play, they can do this just as well with just the BSB. At least it's worth a thought ;)

Best of luck and please let me know the next time you write up a report! I hope you found my comments useful and not too harsh,

regards, Olannon

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:51 am 
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Hmm... I am interested in the order of deployment for each side. What I mean is, if there was any indication he was going to bunker on that side of the board, I would have set up along the other flank, with RBTs and archers covering the hill providing fire support from his far side. Directly across from him, the Spears would be next to the archers, then swordsmasters and WL covering his hard flank. I would have also deployed all cav together on the other side of your fortified hill. GE and chariot would have been deployed to counter any changes in deployment he made to counter your "castling" of the other corner of the board.

As already stated, you really had great positioning on turn two, but you gave him way too an attractive center to push through, which is what he eventually did. Deploying your spears between the two units of archers would have made it a little harder. As it was, they were too far removed from the center to make it any more resilient. I also, given your deployment, would have deployed your DPs with the SH bus, making that flank much harder, especially given his quick re-deployment of the GG to attack the SH.

I also think it would have been better to stand with your SH when they were charged by the GG. One GG unit you could have withheld against. I feel it was the combination of GG and 2 Vargulfs that really spelled your doom on that flank. Once you flee with a unit of heavy cav, you will never get the initiative to charge again unless you give him another unit he has to charge that can stand up a round of combat. Standing, you probably would have killed a few with your general and SB, and your 8 knights, although only S3 could have done some damage. At least enough to keep it close and allow you to stand with a re-roll. Then, your swordmasters could have charged the flank your turn and crumbled the rest of the GG, allowing you to reform and face the vargulfs.

And yes, very unlucky to fail the charge with the spears. :( but that sometimes happens I suppose. A decent magic phase could have also helped, but only 1 AM does make magic that much more unpredictable.

Other than that, great job on the reports! I really enjoyed reading them. It has been said that you learn more from losing than you do from winning, and its clear your opponent did indeed learn a lot with each loss. Now that he beat you, you can see what worked and didn't work to re-vamp (pun intended) your list and make it harder against all opponents.

Let me know when your next report comes out too! I will be looking for it! I will get some of my reports out there soon too (classes and dissertation getting in way of open gaming nights unfortunately, but I am learning almost as much by reading battle reports like yours and Seredain's, as I do by actually having a battle, so thank you!).

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:12 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Immediately when I saw your deployment I thought of it as a very bold move. You are not really afraid of him outflanking you, and as such you're taking a big risk when you put your fastest and hardest troops on your own flanks against a fast army. From his deployment you know that he'll be very much a 'point-and-click' kind of guy in this game, and as such you can counter by placing your hard units in the center.

As I mentioned before I wanted to try a different apporach. I know it works when I form a strong centre. This time I wanted to give him a choice between going to my soft centre and let me envelope him or go for my flank and expose himself to shooting and rear attacks.

Curu Olannon wrote:
As it turned out, your center collapsed and this cost you the game. Notice how many turns some of your hard and fast units spend out of combat. Granted, it's nice that they're fast, but it's in combat they will make a toll. Your center is super-weak and due to the compact nature of these fights, even your main battle block (Spearelves) are left awkwardly out of combat at the crucial times. Ideally, you want them in the midst of it, supported on either side by hard units.

I disagree that losing my centre cost me the battle, provided that by centre you mean repeaters and archers. I didn't want to sacrifice them but if they are gone I still have my dangerous combat unit intact. I agree though that my Spearelves were too far away from combat (even due to the unlucky roll for a charge distanse). I don't agree, however, they need to be in the midst of the line. Especially that they fight on their own without any characters among their own ranks. That is also a reason why I want them slightly back from main line of attack of my enemy. I want them to join the fight by charging not receiving the charge if I am not absolutely sure they can hold the attacker.

Curu Olannon wrote:
What happens is that he breaks through and your units are spent trying to cover up. There is a complete lack of synergy at this point and your army quickly takes a hard beating, only the very toughest survive. Even the Helms are in an awkward position where they have to flee from combat - not something you'd like from such an expensive unit!

Yes, that was a mistake on my part not to anticipate that move and I guess I panicked a little. Fleeing from combat, even with such a strong unit to create better chances for other regiments is still viable tactics in my opinion. If I could pull off the (under other circumstances) to flank charge Grave Guard with Swordmasters I would do so. They might die in two turns of combat but I would inflict a lot of damage by then. Of course it is important to have another combined charge ready but still it may be a tool for a job sometimes.

Curu Olannon wrote:
So - what do I believe you could've done differently? Firstly, I would've deployed the spears directly in front of the RBT to your right, creating a solid center. On the left flank here, you're not really worried about anything since there's so little room. I suppose the swordmasters would fit here, maybe an eagle or the chariot as well. The thing is, if he commits to this side you can sweep his other side with 2x cavalry and all your characters. If he doesn't, well then your swordmasters and a chariot should be enough power to make him think twice about crashing into your spears. If he does and you flank him, you could very well have the swordmasters cut down 2 full units of ghouls in one single round of combat.

That is very good suggestion. I think I could have refused my western flank. What I have noticed, however, is that deploying my White Lions on on flank forces Vargulf to re-deploy to opposite flank. If I have my Knights waiting there for them then it is simply great. These are two units which can deal with these beasts and they are very limited in their movement then.

Curu Olannon wrote:
On the other flank, a solid unit needs to be close to the spears. Lions or Helms can fulfil this role. With what's left now, you can pretty much deploy the archers for counter-attacks and have the rest of your units cover the eastern approach. As I said before, you're not really worried about him outflanking you since his 4 main combat units are going to go dead ahead. If they don't his middle will crumble and you can capitalize heavily on your mobility.

I had some thoughts about exploiting the freedom of movement on eastern flank and forcing him to wheel towards me and make his way longer so even with movement spell he would have spent more time to do so. I haven't deployed properly to execute that, however, and I think that as my disadvante in a sense. It just shows how important that part of the game really is, no matter how fast your units are. They need to be in the right place to force that presure from turn 0 :D and then use their movement to the full.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Ok, so given your deployment I would've tried to bolster my center in my first turn. Your eagle is very nicely placed, but I believe the Spears should move inwards, along with the chariot. This opens up for your swordmasters to pose themselves directly to his flank, should he charge your spears. This in turn gives your helms more room which means they probably won't be charged - even with Van Hel's! Also the DP's and WL's should have been way closer. I know you tried a bold move. Essentially you tried to squeeze him in between your two pincers. Problem was, he opened up an escape route - straight through your center! This killed pretty much all of your support and let him dictate the flow of battle too much. Such a bold move might have worked against Warriors of Chaos for example, but hardly against such a fast army.

I think my mistake was to position Spearelves, Swordmasters and Silver Helms in single line. I should either move Swordmasters a little forward or backward. In that case they would either be receiving a charge and still gain support or flee and create failed charges. If they are backward then they would not be charged when Silver Helms retreated and still offer a support and counter charge for Spearelves. Again, I was cautious with Spearelves as I believed they are close enough to attack as I didn't want them to be attacked by Vampire Lord with his minions instead. They can hold their ground and even beat charging Ghouls but I am afraid extra attacks from Vampire Lord would make a lot of difference. I metioned that before too but I keep wondering how would it ended if I charged Ghouls who were fighting my Archers with Spearelves, White Lions and Dragon Princes into western Ghouls with a little Vampire and sacrifice my centre. He would have broken through it but then I could have destroy his other unit of Ghouls and be ready for his return. What you suggest is sound advice but applies to situation created by different deployment. I am also interested in solutions I could provide to problems which appeared during the game when I lost initiative and need to regain it. :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
I realize I might sound a little harsh now, and that is not my intention at all, so I apologize if I do. I am merely trying to give my thoughts on the battle. Overall, I think you did very well in these fights and probably learned tons! I am very glad you took all the hours to document it for all of us to read in such a nice and clean format, thanks a million :)

I really appreaciate your criticism. That is also a reason why I post my reports. People can spot things I cannot or didn't. This is very valuable discussion and I am glad you provided your suggestions. By all means do so without any hesitation! :)

Curu Olannon wrote:
As to your style of play - it appears you are somewhat impatient and pre-occupied with movement whereas support units seem to be given less of an important role, compared to e.g. Seredain's style of play. As such I would advice you to pick up some more fast and expendable units, while making anvils real anvils, not jack-of-all-trades as your Lions are now. For example, you could ditch an RBT to bolster your Lions and add an Eagle. This would make it easier to form a battleline (spears and lions acting as anvils) and you could still move a lot of fast units - which enables you to envelope the enemy forces. The diagram at the turn of your turn 1 is pretty impressive if you view it from a non-unit related point of view. You basically have his entire army trapped, and with the proper units there is no way out of it - even for van hel's vampires ;) Re-arranging the elements a little, you could very possibly achieve this with High Elves. I'm even thinking you should consider having your General on foot as a fighty prince in an anvil, reducing the points invested in the cavalry element which you're so happy to send away to dominate a flank. I believe, the way you play, they can do this just as well with just the BSB. At least it's worth a thought ;)

It is indeed worth a thought! I would very much like to make my own version of the list at last, if not create my own army. However, these battles were against the same enemy which moves fast and to counter that I had to move faster. :) I might be a little impatient but it does not mean I would not bid my time for a better positioning of my units. I see the utility of creating anvils. The thing is I do not really like receiving charges and prefere to move my units so they can charge first together. Even with ASF all around. I would very much like to test this army against other foes as well before I start making any changes to the list. I also like an idea of cavalry Prince so I do not think I will abandon that idea. The problem with support units (whichever you consider as real support) is that I am still learning to use the efficiently. Eagle, chariot, archers, they all have very nice uses and I haven't played with them to the full yet. In my opinion it is not a matter of me being impatient but due to not clear idea how I want them to use and/or lack of experience. I might be in the hobby for years but I also had breaks in playing lasting years so whatever I learned in one edition might not be that useful in the next one. Hence I can asure you I will think about changes in the army but not before I play with it longer. Fortunately I will be playing Bretonnia tomorrow and I am really curious about the outcome this time.:)

Curu Olannon wrote:
Best of luck and please let me know the next time you write up a report! I hope you found my comments useful and not too harsh


I hope to have more opportunities to play now. VC are not going to be available as an opponent for some time but it seems that some other folks are returning to hobby too. I will try to write reports on any battles I play for sure. :)

jwg20 wrote:
Hmm... I am interested in the order of deployment for each side. What I mean is, if there was any indication he was going to bunker on that side of the board, I would have set up along the other flank, with RBTs and archers covering the hill providing fire support from his far side. Directly across from him, the Spears would be next to the archers, then swordsmasters and WL covering his hard flank. I would have also deployed all cav together on the other side of your fortified hill. GE and chariot would have been deployed to counter any changes in deployment he made to counter your "castling" of the other corner of the board.

I deployed first and in the following order: Archers, Repeaters, Eagle, Archers, Chariot, Spearelves, Dragon Princes, White Lions, Swordmasters, Silver helms. In any case I have enough of deployment drops to place all support units while he had his army deployed already. I was thinking about the similar approach you have just described but didn't execute it properly during deployment. Deploying cavalry thogether would be an interesting thing to do as well.

jwg20 wrote:
As already stated, you really had great positioning on turn two, but you gave him way too an attractive center to push through, which is what he eventually did. Deploying your spears between the two units of archers would have made it a little harder. As it was, they were too far removed from the center to make it any more resilient. I also, given your deployment, would have deployed your DPs with the SH bus, making that flank much harder, especially given his quick re-deployment of the GG to attack the SH.

Yes, you are correct. It is important to deploy your units right. What is more, when you intermix combat units and archers you need to think how to move and how not to block the line of sight. It is much better now when we can shoot in two ranks but still has to be done carefully. Deploying DP with SH would probably give me that opportunity to bait failed charge against them, so I could flee with them rather than with Silver Helms and still be ready to charge.

jwg20 wrote:
I also think it would have been better to stand with your SH when they were charged by the GG. One GG unit you could have withheld against. I feel it was the combination of GG and 2 Vargulfs that really spelled your doom on that flank. Once you flee with a unit of heavy cav, you will never get the initiative to charge again unless you give him another unit he has to charge that can stand up a round of combat. Standing, you probably would have killed a few with your general and SB, and your 8 knights, although only S3 could have done some damage. At least enough to keep it close and allow you to stand with a re-roll. Then, your swordmasters could have charged the flank your turn and crumbled the rest of the GG, allowing you to reform and face the vargulfs.

There were a few factors which affected my decision. In previous games Grave Guard were even more dangerous with their re-rolls to hit and +1 to hit and wide frontage. So I assumed they would kill all 8 knights anyway. I was confident I could inflict 7 wounds in return due to Prince and BSB. I had 8 more attacks from the Knights and 5 from horsies before GG would strike back. I didn't take them into account though, although they could still inflict some damage. As Grave Guard was still fully strong and with two characters among them I was facing 4 ranks and could hope to kill only one rank in combat. In the end, after my quick calculation of the possible outcome (+2 ranks, +2 standards and a charge) I thought I might have been forced to test on 6 with a re-roll. Not great odds unfortunately for such important combat.

After the combat in later turns I knew there was "only" +1 to hit banner so out of 14 attacks some would have missed. Then I had also les knights to lose as two of them fell down during the flight through the dangerous terrain. So I lost 6 knights with some overkill and in the end I lost combat only by 1. I am not saying it was a good decision. I admit I calculated the outcome a little worse than it could have really happened. And the fact I forgot about the change of items was affecting my judgement. I agree it would be better situation if I held as my Swordmasters would be ready for a charge while Vargulf would be out of combat still. I just wanted to give you some additional insight on what made me make that decision. No matter which choice that was difficult situation better to avoid in the future :)

jwg20 wrote:
And yes, very unlucky to fail the charge with the spears. :( but that sometimes happens I suppose. A decent magic phase could have also helped, but only 1 AM does make magic that much more unpredictable.

Failed charge with Spaerelves also is something I have to take into account and plan accordingly. It was risk worth taking, the odds were on my side. But it didn't happen :) I am more disappoined with the stupid reorm I made in the round 5 as I lost this unit and Dragon Princes as a consequence. That gave away 500 points to the enemy and changed a draw into a loss.

As to the Archmage I do not expect him to cast many spells but the main problem was I didn't have throne and regrowth, much needed this battle. Also dwellers and awakening are the only damage spells in life and I had no targets for awaking many times due to ongoing combats. He did his job dispelling as much as possible though so I am not complaining :)

jwg20 wrote:
Other than that, great job on the reports! I really enjoyed reading them. It has been said that you learn more from losing than you do from winning, and its clear your opponent did indeed learn a lot with each loss. Now that he beat you, you can see what worked and didn't work to re-vamp (pun intended) your list and make it harder against all opponents.

Haha! That was a good one :) But as I said before give me a chance to play some more games before I rush to some list changes :)

jwg20 wrote:
Let me know when your next report comes out too! I will be looking for it! I will get some of my reports out there soon too (classes and dissertation getting in way of open gaming nights unfortunately, but I am learning almost as much by reading battle reports like yours and Seredain's, as I do by actually having a battle, so thank you!).

That is great! I am glad you learn from my mistakes :)

Cheers!

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High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:28 pm 
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It may sound like gross over-simplification to some, but I think most of your problems can be solved by simply playing more with this same army, and repeating to yourself 'keep it tighter' while you're deploying, Mr. Patton. You make these big, bold movements and that's good, but its like over extending a punch and getting your arm broken in several places by a ninja, or in this case, ghoul. I think when you can coordinate your actions more cohesively, you'll be golden with this build!

In any case, post some more reports! :3


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:24 pm 
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I often play against VC but my friend does not use the same setup as your opponent here is doing(2500 pts). He does not use vargulf. He uses 2 unit of grave guard. He often use skelly and a lot of zombie.

But from my defeat and victory I have learned that breaking the VC magic is very important. So I always have a mage with an annulian crystal. I always bring the banner of sorcery to increase my Power dice pool. I am also using Light lore to inflict a lot of damage. My archmage is using light, shadow or high magic.

Ghoul do not have any save so curse of arrow and whitering to reduce their Toughness can be awesome with your archer and your RBT.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:01 am 
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Hi Selvhan!

I didn't expect that BR from last year to resurface again :) I guess it is a little thredomancy here :) Anyway, VC are completely different army now and my opponent currently focuses on his MSU DoC force. If we come back to his VC then I am sure to post a BR again. :)

Thanks for feedback too!

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High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Hi, great report!

Just wondering, in the 3rd game, do you know why the opponent kept his varghulfs behind his ghouls- I can't seem to work it out.

Thanks,

Nemesis


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:31 am 
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Hi Nemesis!

That was many battles ago so I am not sure but I think he wanted them to protect the flank of his advance and not knowing where exactly my heavy hitters would go (he had less drops than me) he chose such position to be able to react better. Vargulfs are fast and can move on their own so it is easier for them. They might also be difficult to wound for some units and even characters might have a problem due to regeneration.

Cheers!

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High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:17 am 
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Ok, thanks


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