need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

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Mattigrew
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need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#1 Post by Mattigrew »

ok i play dwarves on an almost weekly basis and i still cant find a list that can beat them
my typical list consists of

30 seaguard split into 2 units of 15 both full command
2 RBT
2 mages with various items, usually one has a silver wand both level 2
Korhil
14 SM full command
5 DP full command


my opponent uses
1 Organ gun
2 Bolt throwers
1 Grudge thrower
15 warriors full command
1 Thane
15 thunderers(not sure if it has anycommand, i never get close enough :/)
and ocasionally he uses slayers
orka
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#2 Post by orka »

An average Dwarf player won't come to you. Use Seaguard to bombard units on hills(preferably missile troops). Stop his missile units/warmachines from firing your fragile units by charging fast troops into them. Choose targets wisely, for example tooled up Hammerers with a lord are very difficult to break, but not to kill. Your combat units should be able to defeat theirs, point is breaking them.Get off flank/rear and combined charges. Use terrain to protect your troops.
Always remember you have the speed advantage.
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Musashi
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#3 Post by Musashi »

No Quarrelers? Longbow concentrated fire on Thunderers, one unit of 13, musician possible, but not important; RBTs join in barrage.

Start placing woods in the middle of the table, covering as much LoS as possible. One unit DPs with Ellyrion Banner. Possibly a second unit DPs. White Lions, possible.

Phoenix Guard, with or without the Ellyrion Banner.

SW to occupy woods.

Mages with unlimited range damage spells, unit buffs or movement.

Skeinsliver.
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Lord Anathir
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#4 Post by Lord Anathir »

Musashi wrote:Start placing woods in the middle of the table, covering as much LoS as possible.
no terrain 12 from the centre..
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
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Musashi
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#5 Post by Musashi »

Centre as opposed to inside or near either deployment zone.
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White_Phoenix
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#6 Post by White_Phoenix »

I say, get 2-3 wizards and the banner of sorcery. He doesnt seem to have a rune guy so his dispel dice are at minimum.

Good lores would probably be Metal (always take number 1 and snipe his champions/thane, and hope for 6) or Heavens (Thunderbolt works like a charm... NO ARMOR SAVES!!!)

White lions are good because of shooting resistence.

Other than that, against Dwarves i advise as many RBTs as possible. I know, it's cheesy, but the vollies simply destroy them with that -3 AS.

Another thing that worked like a charm for me was flank charging any of his units with a Cloak of Beards ToL noble on eagle. usually you get 3 wounds and he cannot attack back. CR would go your way - 3 wounds + flank against outnumber and standard. Fear would mean that he has to flee, and with 3d6 it is nearly guaranteed you catch his 2d6-1. That noble is also extremely capable against war machines. Besides, since its a mount, its basically an eagle that doesnt cost a rare slot.

Hope this may help you,
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#7 Post by dabber »

Mattigrew wrote:30 seaguard split into 2 units of 15 both full command
That is the first problem. S3 attacks won't do enough to Dwarfs to matter. Won't do much to anyone, but certainly not to Dwarfs. 110 points of archers, that's it.


It might also be good to point out that your friend's list is downright rude. A Dwarf gunline is as boring as it gets, and with only one small unit of non-shooters (15 warriors), that is definitely a gunline. Although the points don't add up to nearly 1500 in what you listed.
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#8 Post by orka »

@White_Phoenix:
RBT are -2 to armour(S4 and AP).
Noble on Eagle is US4, so no flank bonus or rank cancelling.
Also, only autobreak to Fear if the Fear-causers outnumber their enemies.
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White_Phoenix
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#9 Post by White_Phoenix »

orka wrote:@White_Phoenix:
RBT are -2 to armour(S4 and AP).
Noble on Eagle is US4, so no flank bonus or rank cancelling.
Also, only autobreak to Fear if the Fear-causers outnumber their enemies.
Are you sure the noble on eagle is played as US 4? I am new to the game, but as far as i knew it is played as 5.
RBTs are not in fact AP, it only says S4 with a -2 penalty to Armor saves - i interpert that as S4 with an additional -2 penalty...

And i never knew about autobreaking being only when outnumbering - i thought that came into effect only when charging, in which failing would cause one to hit on 6s. What then, is the result of losing a combat against a fear-causing unit which you outnumber? (sorry, do not have the rulebook in my possesion).
orka
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#10 Post by orka »

Everywhere I know, RBT are -2 to armour in total.
US of characters on monstrous mounts is calculated a follows:
-starting wounds of the monster +1

Everytime you lose to an enemy and the total US of enemy fear-causers is greater than the total US of all of your troops, any of your troops not immune in any way to fear automatically break, without a roll.
If a fear-causing enemy charges any of your troops not immune in any way to fear, you take a LD-test for each such unit charging you:
-if passed, nothing happens and charge is resolved normally
-if failed:
-Fear-causing enemy outnumbers you or causes Terror(only take a Terror-test once each game): your unit automatically flees
-Fear-causing enemy doesn't outnumber you: you hit on 6's the first round of combat, regardless of modifiers
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madelmo
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#11 Post by madelmo »

i'd actually stay away from using seaguard over archers against dwarves since that 6" range difference can translate entire an entire turn of shooting over a lot of the dwarven missile troops.

eagles are virtually useless against dwarves since they can't march block and will get shot out of the sky before they can really do anything anyway.

i love swordmasters but you need to be very careful to not get shot up. i've had success by using dragon princes' harder armor to hammer and pg unit as an anvil.
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#12 Post by Bolt Thrower »

orka wrote:Everywhere I know, RBT are -2 to armour in total.
I've always played -3 to the save as well.

I've always had issues with gunlines as well. The best success I've had was to beat them at their own game. Take full magic with an archmage that can throw plenty of dice at Pit of Shades. Walk up in a heavy Phoenix Guard bunker and cast it on every war machine in sight. Once you've neutralized a couple of them you should be able to clean up with some dragon prince units.

My dwarf opponent once suggested skipping magic and working 6 eagles into the list. Fly them in "groups" 0f 3 in a V formation in front of some DP's on each flank. While bringing up the center with some blocks that may be able to last a bit (PG or WL). Too many targets coming too fast = fear for the dwarf because something will get through basically. I never had a chance to try it out, but sounded like it could be fun regardless of the outcome.
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Fwum
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#13 Post by Fwum »

RBT only get -2 total, as they have S 4 and AP. The total save modifier just stand in the artillery statline to be easier to find.
Lord Anathir
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#14 Post by Lord Anathir »

nevermind.
Last edited by Lord Anathir on Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
Wicksi
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#15 Post by Wicksi »

I've acually found big blocks of Phoenix guards with a combat hero in them very usefull, warmachines doesnt really mather due to wardsave its like being shot with a gun ;) and in melee you are pretty even I'd say but if you win the oponent is quite likely to auto break.

All in all they are very resistant to shooting and they are kickass in melee (they acually get more kills then my swordmasters :/ ) and they have fear. they are awesome!
DwarfBoy
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#16 Post by DwarfBoy »

Can we get some clarification on the armor save modifier done by the repeater bolt thrower?

It says its strength 4 and does -2 to armor saves. Shouldn't this stack? Wouldn't they just say Strength 4, armor piercing if it were meant to truly do -2?

What about the organ gun? It says strength 5, -3 to armor saves. Is this -5 total or just -3?

Unless it's in a faq somewhere, I maintain that since it doesn't say armor piercing special rule... it actually stacks.
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Musashi
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#17 Post by Musashi »

It doesn't stack; it's a clear -2 to the armour save, it's presumed that AP isn't mentioned so that certain spells don't mitigate the effect.
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DwarfBoy
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#18 Post by DwarfBoy »

Again, that's your opinion and interpretation. It isn't a "clear" -2 total unless it says that somewhere in a faq or the BRB
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#19 Post by Fwum »

Frustratingly enough I can't find any "evidence" right now, but to only use the stated save and not add the strength is how you do it. You can see it as a way to make it faster and easier to use warmachines. The only two save modifiers are strength and armour piercing, which means you often see the total modifier as the normal strength one or one less. The RBT is S4 AP (-2), the warpfire thrower is S5 (-2) and the organ gun is S5 AP (-3) etc. You are of course free to play it any way you want, and if your friends don't mind it go for it, as a -3 modifier on the RBT is great. Still, I'm willing to bet all the money in Switzerland that's not the way it is played.
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#20 Post by Bolt Thrower »

Yeah, to be honest I think the argument for -3 is in the elves' favor. Nowhere does it say that it wouldn't and if it was meant to say armour piercing it would say that. We shouldn't reduce one of our best tools. It makes sense to me with a single bolt ignoring AS altogether that arm-sized bolts from the same machine would be a -3.
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Dragon.Prince63
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#21 Post by Dragon.Prince63 »

It does not say Armour piercing at all in the book (pg 60).
Dwarfboy was right in my opinion. Strength of 4 with Armour saves suffering a -2 penalty.
It doesn't stack; it's a clear -2 to the armour save, it's presumed that AP isn't mentioned so that certain spells don't mitigate the effect.
What do you mean by this?
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#22 Post by Mattigrew »

[quote="White_Phoenix"]I say, get 2-3 wizards and the banner of sorcery. He doesnt seem to have a rune guy so his dispel dice are at minimum.

ya he does almost always has the rune guy i just didnt know what hes called lol :/
he always has 9 dispell dice to my like 6 or 7 powerdice even when im using annulian crystal
however he has started using a new CC list with a super pumped up thane so i fared better saturday

10 DP FC
1 nobel barded steed+halberd
20 archers banner and musician
10 PG FC
2 RBTs
1 Dragon Mage silver wand and jewel of dusk
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#23 Post by Bolt Thrower »

Mattigrew wrote:1 Dragon Mage silver wand and jewel of dusk
Give this guy 2 power stones or the ring of fury instead of the jewel. Having both the jewel and the silver wand is illegal because they are both arcane items, I believe. Only one magic item per item type (except for scrolls and powerstones).

The power stones will give you two turns of throwing a lot of dice at casting a spell and that will allow you to drain his dice and hopefully get something through. Still even after that you may need a second caster to really be effective in the magic phase.

Remember that remains in play spells can be effective against dwarfs (hello, flames of the phoenix) as in their turn they only have the power dice generated available to try and dispel it and that is only 2 (as opposed to the 4 dispel dice they generate).
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Mattigrew
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Re: need help vs dwarves in 1500 - 2000 pt battles

#24 Post by Mattigrew »

ok ill keep that in mind thanks :)
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