New to whfb, army list help :o

[Elixier]

Hello, first I better introduce myself, im new to WH, been looking around this forum the past few weeks for some tips and I now have a game coming up, i think ill be facing O&G or VC or possibly both in a 2v2 setup. Now like I said, im totally new to the game and I have a small ammount of knowledge outside the High Elves, so basically if anybody can give me some advice on how to play these armies or give me a rough idea on an army list that would be viable it would be greatly appreciated. I have a fair sized army but not sure what to expect from the enemies. The game will be somewhere between 2k/3k ~ not 100% sure as of yet.

thanks, elixier

[SpellArcher]

Well VC are a funny lot. Apologies if I go through stuff you know.

They play very differently to most armies. Firstly of course they are all Immune to Psychology so don't take Panic, Fear or Terror tests. They cannot flee charges for the same reason. Secondly they lose wounds in combat instead of taking Break tests so they never run. Thirdly they all cause Fear (or Terror in some cases). This means a unit of yours that loses to them in combat will autobreak. Fourthly, characters can be magically healed and units restored back to their starting strength. Fifthly, he has virtually no shooting so this gives you a bit of leeway with running vulnerable stuff around. Lastly, their units can be moved magically.

So I would:

1) Not get bogged down in combat with them unless you're awesome (Swordmasters?) or Fear-immune. Avoid them or aim to destroy them quickly by applying tremendous force.

2) Try to wipe units out with shooting or magic. If you leave even one model he can raise the rest back up.

3) Take good magic defence to stop him doing the above.

4) Take units and magic items that are Fear-immune such as Standard of Balance or Lion Chariots.

5) Make good use of fleeing from charges to trap his units which can't respond similarly.

I've probably missed loads of stuff but that's what immediately springs to mind.

[Elixier]

Well thanks alot, thats MUCH more than what I knew, which to be honest was.... nothing lol. Ive a little idea about O&G but i really knew nothing about VC so at least now I have some background on how to approach them. I gather Phoenix Guard although immune to their fear wouldnt be of much use do to their lack of devestating damage compared to the Swordmasters? So its best to pick my fights and wipe them out fast to stop regeneration. How about points, are they a big army? Or is it a small elite army similar to our own?

Would this list make any sense..
(Still unsure wether to take Teclis or if he is too powerful, whats your thoughts on that?)

Teclis
Mage;L2;Seerstaff of Saphery & Dispell scroll
Noble;BSB;Battle Banner;Heavy Armour;Great Weapon;Barded Steed
~1 other hero perhaps, any suggestions?~ Maybe one of those seafarer / reaver bows?
Core~
x10 Archers
x10 Archers
Special~
14SwordMasters;BladeLord;Talisman Of Loec (or would it be better in two smaller groups?
2 White Lion Chariots
Rare~
3 RBT's
1 Eagle

Would also like a Banner of Sorcery somewhere but unsure where, but with that included the list so far comes to approx 2025. Any suggestions?

\\EliXieR

[vash556]

If your opponent isn't taking blood knights, because of the frenzy I would keep said eagle, I would drop the eagle and and make a unit of 6 dragon princes with the banner of sorcery. You could also get rid of the lvl 2 mage because teclis will get alot of stuff off thanks to his ability to get irresitable forces and that would leave the rest of your opponents dispel dice for him and easily neutralize him but I also here that other mages can work with Teclis but i personally don't play around with magic all too often. I guess you could take him and use high magic and get curse of arrow attraction and use that and drain magic first to make your opponent wonder if its worth dispelling now or wait for teclis if he doesn't cast things irresistably. Might have to get some input on others with my experience with Teclis.

[SpellArcher]

I gather Phoenix Guard although immune to their fear wouldnt be of much use do to their lack of devestating damage compared to the Swordmasters?

Because Phoenix Guard tend to win by static CR they might be good with the Battle Banner as this will likely win combat by some way and hence put lots of extra wounds on Undead. The danger is the BSB getting killed in the meantime by a vampire. Swordmasters are especially good against VC's because their major weakness, enemy shooting, is absent.

How about points, are they a big army? Or is it a small elite army similar to our own?

Likely several big blocks of cheap Ghouls/Skeletons/Zombies, seeded with powerful vampires to supply the kills. Some light Wolves/Bats probable. Vamps can go the elite cavalry route but it's less common. Nasty stuff like Varghulfs or Wraiths likely to be floating around.

Teclis makes sense if your opponent is also likely to turn up with a power list. Otherwise you might want to substitute an Archmage and maybe take a Mage too. Agree with Vash that Teclis doesn't really need the back-up. If Teclis I'd take just a BSB also, otherwise maybe 3 characters, four is too expensive IMHO. You want more troops I'd say, at least one more light unit to slow the enemy down and Banner of Sorcery is a very good idea.

[Elixier]

Lord~
General;Teclis ~ 475
Hero~
Noble;BSB;Battle Banner;Heavy Armour;Lance;Barded Steed 214
Core~
x10 Archer's 110
x20 Spearmen;Sentinel&Standard;LionStandard 225
Special~
x7 Swordmasters;Bladelord;Talisman of Loec 127
x7 Swordmasters;Bladelord 117
x2 White Lion Chariots 280
x6 Dragon Princes;Standard;Banner of Sorcery 250
x2 RBT 200

Thanks for the input, this is the list ive came up with. It comes to 1998 Points. Does it look okay to you?
Thanks again

\\EliXieR

[SpellArcher]

I think it needs an eagle or two to slow the enemy down but otherwise pretty sound.

Teclis' Ld10 will really help with Fear tests and the like.

[geoguswrek]

if you know you are fighting vc and you want to tailor your list, take nothing but sm's, they are really good against vc.

[Elixier]

Alright guys, thanks for the advice. The list I said above is the one I settled on... but that didnt go so good :p probably because I didnt really expect so much raising dead etc from them, very confusing army for my first proper wh game. The biggest threat was 5 blood knights (i think thats what they were) Anyway, those did insane damage and owned my dragon princes very quickly, i was doing well for 2 turns or so until he brought most of his army back alive and it was downhill from there. Anyway, i see a few things i would change for next time and once again, thanks for the help

\\EliXieR

[SpellArcher]

Bad luck.

Eagles are good against Blood Knights as you can hopefully force him to charge you due to his Frenzy and lead him astray. Other ideas are Swordmasters or White Lions with Standard of Balance, shooting or a nasty spell from Teclis. How did Teclis go by the way? With two smaller casters it can often be worth taking High Magic twice to cast double Drain Magic. This slows the raising down. You could still go High on Teclis, as you have a good chance of Irresistable Force and Flames of the Phoenix and Vaul's Unmaking can be good against VC's.

[Elixier]

To be honest, the game went extremely unlucky. It was a 2v2 where i lined up facing the VC and my teammate faced the O&G, my teammate probably only lost very slightly which was good going considering she blew her anvil up on turn 1... she rolled a 1, then a 1 on her re-roll, then a 1 on her miscast chart.. terrible luck. Then about teclis, he wasnt much better, he miscast almost every turn which ok, is not devestating because of his second chance. I probably played teclis wrong, I couldnt resist using my spells on the horde's of the O&G at the begginng and my other troops were overrun by the VC. I lined up my DP near the edge of the table and the VC put his bloodknights directly 24 inches away from them. To be honest I wasnt aware of all his units abilities such as frenzy etc, I know that next time I could do alot better anyway, by turn 6 I only had my about 10 swordmasters left and 2 RBTs and Teclis where as it seemed as though the VC had more than what he began with :s My DP dieing so fast to his Blood knights was really the turning point IMHO.

\\EliXieR

[limkopi]

I like the rare choices of your first list. But overall your 2nd list appears to be better. I always include an eagle or two in all my lists, because they are useful for many tricksy stuff that comes with experience. Typically the eagles are best used to hunt war machines with T3 crew (the eagles face difficulty against dwarf crew), setting up traps in order to get flank charges or even to get a charge in the first place and also to prevent the enemy from getting a charge into your important units.

The last two uses are typically set up by getting the eagle in the way of the enemy and moving your forces into a charging position. The enemy would then either have to charge the eagle (which your response could be flee or hold, depending on where the enemy would end up vs where your other units are) or shuffle a little to the left, right or to the back. Thus, your hammer unit would be able to get a charge in.

For your spell selection on Teclis, while Lore of Light is the usual "obvious choice", I do not think that it causes enough damage to cause concern in a VC opponent. Seeing that your opponent has Blood Knights, I might even consider taking Lore of Metal, just to get rid of them with a 5-die cast of Spirit of the Forge. I believe that once the big hammer units of VC are taken out, they usually do not have much to win the game with.

VC's main weakness is that although their characters can do everything, they cannot do everything at once. Thus, every turn you must cause casualties in 1 or 2 units with shooting, magic or combat. If you choose the combat option, use the models with multiple attacks to ensure some casualties every round, making the characters waste resources refilling his forces instead of using vanhels. If you consistently win combat on multiple fronts, you might be able to grind their core troops down to nothing.

To make changes to your 2nd list in order to include the Eagle(s), I suggest you drop the Battle Banner and move the Banner of Sorcery onto the BSB. Upgrade the BSB's armour to a suit of Dragon Armour to be immune to Rule of Burning Iron. If you drop the standard of the DP, you will have 100 points, sufficient for 2 eagles.