Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

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Fwum
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Sweden

Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#1 Post by Fwum »

Got an ongoing feud with a Skaven player, with battles once a week for some time now. I have yet too lose a battle (truth be told I'm not entirely unlucky when it comes to dice...), but my friend is getting seriously frustrated and is bringing heavier stuff each week. Our games are very casual, but to lose against the ratmen now would be a serious blow to the reputation going round of the Asur as unbeatable :). So I therefore seek the help of all honourable advisors of Ulthuan with my new list!

After humiliating his warlord with Loec nobles twice I'm quite certain he's going for a Bell list next. Both our model ranges is limited, so probably no furnace nor an A-bomb, but on the other hand a lot of Censor bearers and a Doowheel. After playing a lot of magic heavy, for a change I wanted to try something more combat orientated with this list. Perhaps not very competative, but I think it will at least be quite funny to play.


Prince: Barded Steed, DA, Shield, Gem of Hoeth, scroll x2, Sword of Might
Noble: GW, DA, Loremasters Cloak, ToL
Noble BSB: Dragon prince kit, Banner of the World Dragon

15 Spearelves: musician
15 Spearelves: musician

13 Sword Masters: Full Command, Banner of Ellyrion (Robe Noble here)
16 White Lions: Full Command, Standard of balance (BSB and Prince here)
5 Ellyrion Reavers: bow, spear, musician
5 Ellyrion Reavers: bow, spear, musician
5 Shadow Warriors
6 Dragon Princes: standard bearer, Warbanner

2x Bolt thrower
Eagle
/2248

After playing skaven a lot, one truth I found was how useless big units of infantry was in face of skaven magic. Scorch, Plague everything else is horribly destructive to blocks, but as I really love infantry I tried to find a way around it, resulting in this list. The battle plan revolves around the two elite blocks, kitted with immunity from magic and with combat characters. Both also have the ability to move through woods, and as we take turns deploying terrain I will try to put some big woods in the middle, hampering his movement. The units will advance quickly, probably besting any skaven infantry he could field with ease. As flank guarders and slave cleaners I will use the spears, as 15 of them is enough to reliably beat most skaven. The Dragon Princes will function as an anti measure for the Doom Wheel (as discussed in the enemy of the month thread), or otherwise put the pressure on by being able to break units to the front. I've also included a lot of redirectors, whose main objective will be to keep the censor bearers out of combat, they are so damn dangerous it's not even funny. A good way to deal with them is magic missiles, but without any magic they might become a problem. The reavers will also try to snipe any weapon team that might pop up, but due to me always killing them in all our previous games I don't think he'll bring any.

So my hope with this army is to have most of my points in two magic proof units, therefore punishing him for taking a bell. With a lot of small units, fast cav and ignoring difficult terrain with my big ones, I also think this list has a lot of tactical advantages. My concerns is that my magic defence is too weak, and that all my characters wears paper armour.

So my questions is: Does the list looks workable and should I change anything? (And do you think it looks like a fun list to play?) And more specifically: Is only combat heroes without any serious armour to risky, and do you think the magic defence is enough for a bell list with some 10 PD? This is also the first time I use White lions, so any suggestions concerning unit size, formation and tactics is very welcome.
smart elf
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#2 Post by smart elf »

I like your list and it should be fun to play. those 2 units will survive the magic, although i think that the rest of your army will not. when he knows their magic resistance, he will throw all the spells at the rest of your army. then you are left with only those 2. but if you move fast it could work.

I am curious how your reavers will do. am thinking of using them myself. the problem is they die so fast against magic/ shooting from skaven. but they can work really great against frenzy sencer bearer's or monks.

am building an list at the moment for my fist try against the new skaven for next week. I played more then a dozen times against the old skaven and never won above 2000 p. although a few times i could have won but had bad luck.

I heard you talking about a magic heavy list you used with good results against skaven? I would really like to hear more about that list and your tactics if you don't mind :D ? Am thinking about a magic heavy list too, and I am curious how you play against them.

in the end i would not chance anything in your list. because i think you have enough experience to use the units just the way they should be used. avoiding magic, choose your fights, killing mages.
play it and see how it goes, i know it will be fun.
smart elf
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#3 Post by smart elf »

oh.... maybe a unit of archers will be good for taking out weapon teams. although they have a 4+ ward save now. but they can be really annoing and can really hurt.
Fwum
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#4 Post by Fwum »

Thanks for the reply!

True, the rest of my force will crumble if he hits it with any magic, but the plan is sort of this:
Turn 1 he throws all of his magic on my expensive elites but discovers to his horror that they are immune!
Turn 2 he target the rest of my army, but I burn my scrolls and stop it. Also, the rest of my army is quite cheap.
Turn 3 I'm in combat, wrecking havoc and killing mages.
It's not foolproof, but I think it can work.

I have only used reavers once against skaven, but they really made an impression on me. With all new pestilence toys you can expect a lot of frenzy, and fast cav is just amazing at redirecting. Also their feigned flight rule helps them to continue this all the game. The truth is that the new skaven have no good way to handle fast cav! With the nerf to rattling guns, they really lack that supportive fire they used to have. Jezzails is dangerous, but I'd rather see them target my cheap reavers than my knights, and without skirmish they seldom have any line of sight anyway. All other shooting skaven has is either templates or short range, posing no threat to M 9 fast cav. Warp lightning is dangerous as always, but with the new shiny (and short ranged) lore of plague, you see it a lot less than before. The reason I gave them bows was to make them able to hunt weapon teams, so I didn't have to take any archers, but as you say I would like to squeeze some in as weapon teams can be horrible if they get to shoot.

After playing them a lot, I really think heavy magic is the way to go against skaven manly becomes of two reasons: 1. They have lots of expensive support units that just begs for a magic missile, and 2. We really need that magic defence against them, so you would probably have one or two mages anyway. Maybe also 3) Our units are don't need any combat character to win battle, as even spears can hold their own and wins most of the time. My setup is the common one: Archmage with wand, RoF and a mage with seerstaff plus Banner of Sorcery. One spell setup I have used twice (won twice^^) and found highly effective is Death for the Lv 4 and Fire with the Lv2, choosing the burning head and fiery blast. This gives me two (three with the ring) 2d6 S4 missiles and a lot of great other spells. The thing with skaven is that they have a good morale as long as they have rank bonus but not when fleeing, meaning that a fleeing skaven unit tends to continue running until of the board. This setup uses that fact to its maximum. Firstly, with the abundance of skaven units the burning head can easily cause 3 or more panic test by its own! This synergises well with the best Lore of Death spell, doom and darkness. -3 on Ld-tests is brutal, and with the loss of the ranks when fleeing the spell effect carries on the next turn to keep them from rallying. After a successful casting, force a panic check with shooting or magic and laugh as they run like the rats they are! Where this truly shine is against their characters: Engineers have no better Ld than clanrats, and with doom and darkness and without their rank bonus chieftains and even warlords put the tail between their legs.
So, my general magic heavy strategy is something like this: destroy high priority targets like jezzails, censor bearers, gutter runners etc. with magic missiles. Then I try to panic as much of his ranked units as possible, to prevent my advancing units to get flanked. If immune to psychology I redirect and avoid them, until I can attack on my own terms. If this succeeds most of the fighting should be unit vs unit in the front, where HE should come out in top nine times out of ten. If he also goes magic heavy my Lv 2 chooses high Magic for drain magic and Fury of Khaine. I should also note that my opponent only use one Doowheel as rare, and I haven't met the A-bomb yet. If he ever do bring the HPA I'll probably use fire on the archmage too, to get more fiery blasts.

So, hopes this helps. If you want I could probably find my old lists and post them too.

Back to my list, I was thinking of ditching my prince for a standard scroll caddy, thus winning about 150-200 points. My magic defence remains the same, but I lose Ld 10 and his attacks. Do you think it is worth it? The points saved could maybe go to some archers, or another combat noble, plus some magic items.
smart elf
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#5 Post by smart elf »

that is a possibility. the only big disadvantage is indeed that you loose your ld 10. on the other hand you made your lord a scroll caddy which costed him 85 points of his 100 points.

so, you could indeed make a scroll caddy and another hero. then you only loose 1 attack, and of course the ld 10 which could be a problem if you have to roll lots of tests. I don't think you need a lord against skaven, if you have 3 heroes then i am sure they will also do the job. maybe an reaver bow hero for the weapon teams instead of archers? I made my list yesterday and included a BSB with reaver bow to try it out.

Thanks for your information and tactics. i will try out the lore of death and fire. sounds good the way you explained it :D . i am sure it can work. i will also try the reavers out. when there isn't much shooting they will have a good chance to do some really annoying things to our opponents and disrupt their tactics.

here is the list i made. it's 2200 points. i have a tournament in april which is 2200p, so i will use this list to try it out. when i do well i am gonna use it for the tournament i think. And i always have to fight against skaven in it so it will come in handy.

achmage lvl 4, 2 scrolls, silver wand, ring of fury
mage lvl 2, seer, dispell scroll
BSB, great weapon, dragon armor, reaver bow

21 spearman, musician, SB + lion standard
10 archers

15 phoenix guard, fc, banner of sorcery
5 dragon princes, SB + banner of ellyrion
5 dragon princes
5 reavers with bows and spears
7 swordmasters, champion + TOL

2 bolt throwers
2 eagles

so i really wanted to try out the BSB with reaver bow. i know he is fragile, but I hope he will kill anything in base to base so they can't hit back. I also wanted a big block of spears and phoenix guard although i failed in the latter (wanted 19). i also failed in getting 3 bolt throwers but i can't have everything of course :lol:
the idea is to let my 2 units of dragon princes be the flankers for the spears and phoenix guard. my eagles and reavers are gonna redirect and maybe kill or shoot little and easy targets. the swordmasters are gonna look for an hero or lord and cuicide in it, hopefully.with shooting and magic i hope to get as much panic tests as possible and the BSB has to hold the line together and shoot annoing targets.
any thoughts about this list and tactic? thx in advance

sorry for asking all those questions instead of giving you more answers :lol: when do you have your battle? let it know how it went. am curious how things will work out

thanks again and good luck =D>
Fwum
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#6 Post by Fwum »

This list actually looks really similar to the lists I use to play! 8)

I like it a lot, it's got a lot of fast, hard hitting elements in the DPs, and is otherwise very well balanced with both shooting, magic and infantry blocks. Nothing much else to say. As you already have a lot of shooting you might want to drop the expensive bows on the reavers, and maybe add another PG or two more spearmen, both these units benefit from a couple of more bodies. The tactics is good, and in my own experience it works really well. This list should do very well at a tournament, where the ability to choose magic lore against each new opponent is also a great benefit.

Took the advice on the Reaver bow and put it on a chariot noble to better be able to zoom around the battlefield and pick out targets. He'll probably hang back with the bolt throwers and protect the rear, while also avoiding magic missiles and jezzails. The reaver bow seems great (have only used it once before, so no real experience there), and should easily kill anything in the skaven army. So, the revised list:

Noble: Tiranoc chariot, lance, DA, Shield, Reaver Bow, Talisman of Protection (rear guard and sniper)
Noble: GW, DA, Loremasters Cloak, ToL
Noble BSB: Dragon prince kit, Banner of the World Dragon
Mage: Lv 1, scroll x2 (hides in a wood or hangs around the bolt throwers)

15 Spearelves: musician
15 Spearelves: musician

13 Sword Masters: Full Command, Banner of Ellyrion (Robe Noble here)
15 White Lions: Full Command, Standard of balance (BSB here)
5 Ellyrion Reavers: spear, musician
5 Ellyrion Reavers: bow, spear, musician
5 Shadow Warriors
6 Dragon Princes: standard bearer, Warbanner

2x Bolt thrower
Eagle
/2250

I think this setup will work better. The inclusion of a chariot and the reaver bow should be worth losing Ld 10 and some extra attacks with the WL. Thoughts? As we have holiday in Sweden right now I don't expect to play in a week or so, but I'll definitely post the result.
PGP
Posts: 267
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:31 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#7 Post by PGP »

The problem with magic protecting nobles are the thing that the units which they are not protecting are magiced to death. Second lvl 1 with annulian crystal can function much better. You could take AoF to champ for extra protection. Also, as the magic protecting item take all the magic item point allowance, they lack the punch and the protection to protect themselves from non-magic harm.

You should fill eagle slots before you are filling reaver slots. You could take third rbt, this would make the list a bit beyond friendly. Now you can actually kill abos, wheels and ovens.

Consider eagle for reaver bow noble. Consider other 10 points magic items for chariot noble, you picked the worst.

Consider also 10 lsg with shields instead of spears or increase the spears to 20 fc. Archers would be the best, but this probably not interest you.
Fwum
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#8 Post by Fwum »

PGP wrote:The problem with magic protecting nobles are the thing that the units which they are not protecting are magiced to death. Second lvl 1 with annulian crystal can function much better. You could take AoF to champ for extra protection. Also, as the magic protecting item take all the magic item point allowance, they lack the punch and the protection to protect themselves from non-magic harm.
Don't really agree on this. Sure, five dd would be great, but that would be two character slot with no other function than magic defence. And then there would be the problem that is skaven magic: Even with a lot of dispel dice he is bound to get something through. A single casting of scorch or plague would destroy one of the elite units, and as those two units are vital for the function of the army that would mean that the magic defence would have failed. Here is were the Robe and BotWD come in, as they defend them regardless of what he casts, which is exactly what I want the magic defence to perform. If he starts to kill my other units its fine by me: they cost very little compared to his investment in his magic phase. This is also the reason of my core choices, where a big spear unit just begs to be blown to bits, and gives a lot of VP. 15 of them still fight clanrats to a standstill if charged, can flank and kill slaves on leasure, and if targeted by magic still is cheap enough to be expendable. I would like to have some archers as well, but with the focus on close combat the list haves I think the reaver bow noble will be sufficient to hunt weapon teams. On the same note, magic resistant is really bad against skaven, as it only works against two of their spells (warp lightning and Plague), meaning items like AoF does nothing most of the time.

I agree that they lack any serious defence, but with asf and S6 they really don't lack punch. My hope is that by running them with killy units they should clear any front rank with ease, thereby preventing anything striking back. And with all the toughness test running wild in the skaven army, magic armour sometimes just seems unnecessary, as your still an T3 elf...

Would probably have another eagle, but right now I own only one model so I usually go with one. But with eagles you've got the issue of the storm banner. Last game my eagle could fly first at round 4, but often you lose at least one round of flying movement. This makes them a lot more unreliable as redirectors, compared to reavers that could be in use from turn 1. Same thing with mounting a noble on one: He could easily become stranded somewhere very dangerous if the banner is activated turn 2 or 3. Another RBT would be really nice, but I needed the points and again, I don't own three models. My opponent often brings only a single Doomwheel of all the large targets so two is often enough, but I agree that three would probably be necessary with multiple large targets.

About the magic items: After some mathhammering I found that you were completely right in that the ToP is the worst 10 point item to choose. I somehow was convinced it were really good, but my calculator told me otherwise... :roll: Will be changed to an Enchanted Shield, seems like the best of all other options.
smart elf
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#9 Post by smart elf »

indeed, the talisman isn't a good item. the enchanted shield will work better. I was also thinking of giving your chariot noble a great weapon. but i don't know if you can find the points. it's great to have S6 on the charge with the lance, but when stuck in combat or when your chariot is blown to pieces it's only S4. the great weapon will give you S5. S6 when your chariot is down.

i think it is a good list. try it out and see how it goes. then you can always make some chances if things don't work out the way you would like it.

I will try out my list. the battle is next friday. so i hope things will go well for me
PGP
Posts: 267
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:31 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#10 Post by PGP »

I forgot the strom banner totally. Eagles and shooting are then a bit of waste. Some peoples play the strom banner one use only, as it was supposed to be (I heard that it was actually that in the german army book). I usually build lists against various armies.

Why not take more magic offence, if the magic is a problem. HE offence is actually defence as they have the drain magic spell. With double lvl1(caddy+ac) you can cast the drain magic twice (or shield of saphery). Of course these usually do not go through, but still...
smart elf
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#11 Post by smart elf »

I got my battle last friday. unfortunately the result was a minor loss for my elves. The battle was 2200 points. He didn't bring the stormbanner????? Don't tell me why, i think he forgot about it and i forgot to ask it :lol: .
I used the list i wrote a few reply's up. he used:

lord with 3+ as on a ogre. he had 4 S5 attacks, don't know if he had a ward save because he didn't have to use it.
2 plague priests. both with senser. forgot about the magic items. he had no dispell scrolls. 1 was on a plague furnace, the other in a unit plague monks

2 units of 25 slaves
2 units of 25 clanrats fc
2 units of 25 plague monks fc
3 ogres. lord in this unit
2 plague mortars ( very unpredictable)
2 hellpit abonomations
8 plague senser bearers

it was a nice battle. i wasn't very upset about his list, but there were a lot of things that could hurt me bad and i couldn't shoot, magic everything. I made some bad mistakes in the beginning (deployment). which costed me the game in the end i think.
in the first turn he blocked the path of my right flank with swordmasters, reavers and dragon princes who couldn't do much because the reavers would be charged and run off the board and the princes were defending the plank of the spearman in the center. big mistake not to move them because in turn 3 the reavers and swordmasters were dead and in turn 4 the dragon princess. who didn't charge, were beaten by plaguemonks. they did kill the plague priest with luck :D .
magic and shooting went fairly well i choose dead with the archmage and fire with the lvl 2. 1 mistake was the dead lore for this army because everything with points was frenzied, unbreakable or stubborn. so the -3 LD didn't work as i hoped it would :) . first turn i got 1 helpit down to 1 wound. second turn finished him of and killed 2 ogres. in the rest of the game i finished the ogre unit and the mount of the lord, a mortar and some senser bearers. end of turn 4 i lost both bolt throwers and (worst of all) in turn 6 my archmage with 1 wound left miscast and kills himself. the lvl 2 also miscast and got a wound. so there goos 450 points.
in hand to hand not much happened. swordmasters were beaten by a hellpit. reavers were beaten by the ogre unit with lord. my dragon princes were charged by sensor bearers and fled. the turn after they were charged by a unit monks with priest and held. one funny thing: the priest killed 2 monks and wounded himself with the senser. then 2 dragon princes attacked him and killed it :D . they held 1 turn but were beaten the next turn and ran off the board. my spearman never saw combat but 10 were killed by the flame template of the furnace :( . the only 2 units ho did something were 1 unit of dragon princes and phoenix guard with reaver bow BSB. the BSB shot the first hellpit to his end and killed a mortar. PG charged slaves, ran over and were charged by clanrats in the flank. they held and next turn the dragon princes joined in the flank and overran them. after this my 2 miscasts started and the game was over.
i lost the game with 500 points. so it could have been a draw

one question. when a hellpit is hit by a flaming attack, does he lose his regen save for the rest of the game or does he lose it only to flaming attacks? so other wounds who are not flaming can be saved by the regen save. we looked it up but could only find that when something with regeneration is hit by flaming the save can't be made. there is nothing that sais he loses the save permanently. so we played it that when a flaming wound was made he could not save but when a normal wound was made he could use the regen save. it took me much longer to kill the hellpit this way.

thx in advance
geoguswrek
Posts: 1974
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:44 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#12 Post by geoguswrek »

smart elf wrote: i choose dead with the archmage
... if there are 2 hellpits, take fire.
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127
Fwum
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#13 Post by Fwum »

Two A-bombs and a furnace! That looks like a really nasty list... As you said death was sort of wasted on all that frenzy, but it can be useful against abominations. They are not ItP or anything, so if you give one -3 ld and then force a panic check it runs on a 5. Still, fire would probably have been better. Still got to say that his list is sort of over the top with dual Abominations, even one is hard to deal and two seems almost impossible without an extremely tailored list. Regeneration does not disappear after a flaming attack, so he can use regeneration on all non-flaming attacks. Are you sure the priest on the furnace had a censor? If so, all monks base to base with the furnace would have to take a test each turn! Good luck next time.

I've got my own game tomorrow, so I'll post how it went afterwards.
PGP
Posts: 267
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:31 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#14 Post by PGP »

You could have also been a little friendlier with your list. Say book lvl4 and three lvl2(seer-ps+jewel-GoC-scroll+fury-wand) with sorcery banner dp instead of nobles eagles and rbt. GoC mage mainly in lions. Take fire a lot and one high magic for drain magic.
smart elf
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#15 Post by smart elf »

thanks for the reply about the regeneration question. we played it right, and I was wrong about it.

but now you mention about the censor of the furnace priest. he had a censor i am sure about that. i also told him about it but i wasn't sure and he told me he couldn't find it.so he never took tests the whole game. I don't blame him, this was his first time with the new skaven and I think that he never took a lot of time to look in to it. when he had known it, he would not have taken a censor.
but never the less, i will tell him so next time we do it the right way. so,good point there Fwum =D>

my friend told me he liked the play stile of his army. i think i can expect more of this kind of battles.
maybe he will put in a doomweel next time but i will see. so my confidence has grown now to beat him at last the next time. in 3 or 4 years i never beat this guy :evil:
think i will trim down my spearman unit to 15, throw out an eagle and put in a 3th bolt thrower. think this will do the job next time i hope. maybe i will give the lvl 2 high magic for arrow attraction. else i'll give both mages fire magic.
BSB with reaver bow has surprised me so i will keep him in for now. about the reavers i am not sure. couldn't use them this time due to my own mistakes. but i will give it another try

good luck with your battle tomorrow. I hope you have more luck then I had
Fwum
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#16 Post by Fwum »

It was a very exciting game, but my luck might not have been the best... Among the high points of the game was him turning all my swordmasters with noble to clanrats turn one, and killing all but two White lions with the doomrocket turn 3. Still, I managed a draw! Will post a more detailed battle report later (maybe with pictures 8) ).
smart elf
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#17 Post by smart elf »

you failed the 2+ ward save then with your noble? that's bad luck. still nice that you scored a draw with your 2 main units gone.
geoguswrek
Posts: 1974
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:44 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#18 Post by geoguswrek »

smart elf: no saves allowed vs 13th spell
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127
Fwum
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#19 Post by Fwum »

Have posted a rather lengthy battle report now, pictures included. A very friendly skaven list, but still an interesting game.
smart elf
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Friendly 2250 points army against Skaven

#20 Post by smart elf »

hmmmm think i have to read the book again. didn't knew or forgot about that :lol:
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