2000 pts HE vs DE - Tips and tactics on list?

[DraconicKat]

I'm just looking for ways to improve my lists and thus, my gameplay but while still keeping the "fun things" intact. Such as, I love dragons of course! This list isn't *just* against DE, but a friend and I are doing a 2000 pt battle and she's my DE nemeis, so that's why the title. I don't *try* to be cheesy but I know what people think when you put dragons in a list sooo...

Lothern Sea Guard (w/sheild) x15
Sea Master (+10)
Musician (+5)
Standard (+10)

Lothern Sea Guard (w/sheild) x10
Sea Master (+10)
Musician (+5)
Standard (+10)

Shadow Warriors x8
Shadowmaster (+12)

Sword Masters x10
Bladelord (+12)

Dragon Princes x5


Repeater Bolt Throwers x2

Prince
Star Lance (+40)
Armor of Caledor (+25)
Star Dragon (+370)
Amulet of Light (+15)

Dragon Mage
Talisman of Protection (+10)
Dispel Scroll (+20)


1999

(As well I'm a biiit limited due to what I have - for example, I ONLY have 10 Swordmaster models at this time, and 5 Dragon Princes. I do have another 15 Lothern Sea Guard and also 10 White Lions as far as additional "choices", I do also have a few other special characters (Alith, Korhil, Tyrion, Teclis) as well as a noble and mage up and done.)

Thanks y'all.

[dabber]

Where is the second core unit? The list looks illegal at the moment.

Magic resistance on Sea Guard is very unlikely to matter. They won't be hit by any magic until the dragons and the Swordmasters are dead, by which point you've already lost.

I see no reason to buy a Dragon Prince champion. The only possible impact I see is getting challenged and wasting kills on a champion. Keep them at 150 pts.

The dispel scroll on the Prince is definitely illegal. Arcane items are wizard only.

Buy the Crown or the Guardian Phoenix for the Dragon Mage. The talisman of protection is not worth the 10 pts.

Why would you ever want a big unit of shadow warriors? I'm not convinced 5 of them is worth having, but I can at least understand taking them. How is 14 of them anything but handing VPs to the enemy? Especially against Dark Elves, where Shades are massively superior.

[SpellArcher]

It's the Shadow Warriors Deathstar!

I'd take two units of 10 SeaGuard, drop the magic standard and maybe the command figures. You could split the Shadow Warriors into two units of 7.

[DraconicKat]

You are correct, there is an error at that with the core, apparently I completely forgot to add that second unit, I'm used to playing under 2000, this'll be my first "2000 point" game in a while! So, here we go again (also edited first post):

I like the idea of units of 15 SeaGuard - simply for the ability to use all three ranks of spears. What are anyone's tactical thoughts on that? The Shadow Warriors are my own personal favorites, but I do agree that the previous list had *too* many (esp with the previous mistake). Is it really better to have fewer? Especially against Druchii - where they're the only unit that has *hate* vs. them. (I employ them as ambushing archers and then perhaps go for a rear/side flank if they're not charged *at*) I do realize I only own 5 Dragon Princes, but tactics on using them effectively would be great - is it even viable to use them at 5? I love the concept but they are expensive and I've failed at using them properly in the past.

Lothern Sea Guard (w/sheild) x15
Sea Master (+10)
Musician (+5)
Standard (+10)

Lothern Sea Guard (w/sheild) x10
Sea Master (+10)
Musician (+5)
Standard (+10)

Shadow Warriors x8
Shadowmaster (+12)

Sword Masters x10
Bladelord (+12)

Dragon Princes x5

Repeater Bolt Throwers x2

Prince
Star Lance (+40)
Armor of Caledor (+25)
Star Dragon (+370)
Amulet of Light (+15)

Dragon Mage
Talisman of Protection (+10)
Dispel Scroll (+20)

1999

[SpellArcher]

The problem with units of 15 Spears is that they are too big to be cheap support units and too small to fight effectively. This problem is greater with LSG because you're not using the bows of the third rank. So people normally go for either 10's or 20's. 10 LSG work well as guards for RBT's as they can beat most RBT-hunting units and still contribute bowfire.

A unit of 15 only contributes 2 ranks (less if it takes a casualty) and so is starting at least -2CR to an average enemy unit of 20, 1 rank+outnumbering. Worse, if the enemy causes Fear and beats you by one, they only have to be 16-strong to autobreak you. If you're going with 15 anyway, the War Banner or Lion Standard are good ideas.

It's also unusual to take standards on units of 10 Core. You give away 100VP's if you lose it and the benefits are less than for a larger unit.

Shadow Warriors cost 16pts each but a unit of five only costs 80pts, so you can afford to lose it. It's still capable of march-blocking, killing war machines etc.. The unit of 14 costs over 200pts, you cannot afford to just sacrifice it, so limiting it's usefulness. It can also be difficult to Scout with as it's hard to hide. The unit of 8 makes more sense. It has the advantage over five that you can take a few casualties and still keep US5+.

Dragon Princes are great as 5's! They are widely regarded as one of our best units. Your unit has a lot of killing power on the charge for 150pts. Plus they are good support for Dragons as they are fast enough to almost keep up with them, unlike the infantry. Many players would take more units of them in a Dragon list.

[DraconicKat]

10's or 20's on LSG? I could do a 20 and a 10 quite easily, in all honesty as far as having two core units. Have the 20 as the more hard hitter and maybe the 10 as supporting bowfire?

I was taking the Dragon Princes as part of the "dragon theme" so glad to know that it sounds like it could be successful! Tips on not getting them shot down would be great!

[DraconicKat]

Another modification of the list, after thinking over a few things:

Lothern Sea Guard (w/sheild) x15
Sea Master (+10)
Musician (+5)
Standard (+10)
Lion Standard (+25)

Lothern Sea Guard (w/sheild) x10
Sea Master (+10)

Shadow Warriors x8
Shadowmaster (+12)

Sword Masters x10
Bladelord (+12)

Dragon Princes x5

Repeater Bolt Throwers x2

Prince
Star Lance (+40)
Armor of Caledor (+25)
Star Dragon (+370)
Hand Weapon (+6)

Dragon Mage
Talisman of Protection (+10)
Dispel Scroll (+20)

2000

Using the 10 LSG to "guard" my RBTs and give supporting bowfire. Maybe lining the 10 LSG up in a straight line at first and reforming if needed? Since high elves always go first it's not like I'm worried *taking* an attack. Other unit of 15 LSG with Lion Standard for "main" charge deflection, the Sword Masters for taking on a smaller unit / sorceress, and Dragon Princes to flank / rear charge whatever the 15 LSG charges - maybe riding "behind" or off to the side (so as not to get shot at!) until needed. My tactics with the dragons would be to fly around behind the opponent's units (rather on their side of the table) and cast / rear charge / breath weapon from there to cause terror and whatall not. If my Druchii opponent brings a Hydra, that'll be the target for my "Prince Imrik". Shadow Warriors I like to use as "ambushing" units, getting off some nice close shots to take down cav / large infantry blocks before flank/rear charging since they have their hatred going for them.

I'm somewhat successful with my lists, but I tend to make large mistakes and forget things. Any sort of tactica that allows me to still utilize some of my favorite units ("Prince Imrik", Shadow Warriors) and also include Dragon Princes (which I've failed at before) is definitely welcome. I'm sort of trying to play a "fluff, yet sound" army; be able to use my "Dragons of Caledor" theme but still not be just an army someone can walk all over. I'm all about the fun, but it's totally not fun when you just get stomped - I want a good game.

Thanks

[SpellArcher]

Most of your units look Ok now. There's a slight issue with the combat infantry, is it too slow to support the Dragons? Maybe not a huge problem. It's more common to back up the Star Dragon with lots of DP's and RBT's than a Dragon Mage but hey, you like Dragons!

The problem your DP unit has is that it's a prime target. Shooty enemies usually try to take out the fastest stuff first as they'll get at least an extra turn to shoot the infantry. That's one reason people take multiple DP units, one of them will get there.

[DraconicKat]

Well the Dragon Mage fared not well - then again was my fault forgetting that he's actually a barely armored MAGE and getting him into combat. Even with Rhuin, not good... That was my learning experience, I have no experience with him as this was the first time I'd tried the Dragon Mage.

"Prince Imrik" did exceptional, however, didn't really need backup at all.

Vs. Druchii - Shadow Warriors FTW. Only at eight, I managed to only lose one and they completely ran down a largish unit of Corsairs - shot at them first, after they took some dragon fire in the butt, and then got into combat. They even contested a table quarter at the end.

Dragon Princes ... totally need tactica on them. They sort of got into combat with Druchii spears and were run off the table in combat res. I like the unit, want to try and use them with my big dragon list, but they are HARD.

RBTs yet again proved their mettle. As did Swordmasters and even the LSGs at 15 and 10, though I did manage to get them sort of trapped in an overrun scenario (cold ones ran into one LSG unit, then hit the next as they fled through... ) but they held their own. Simple minute lack of not getting them out of the way best enough!

[SpellArcher]

Sounds good!

That's the thing with the Dragon Mage, he is vulnerable, which is why many players don't rate the unit. If played carefully he can be effective though.

The Shadow Warriors sound brilliant! Excellent!

Dragon Princes aren't best used in frontal charges on ranked units. Maybe if you can shoot some ranks off first. They're better off using their speed to maneouvre around flanks and such. Only really supercharged Heavy Cavalry are designed to break ranked infantry frontally.

[DraconicKat]

I was actually trying to get the Princes in on a flank but they ended up in a wrong place at the wrong time as well -- my own mistake. Would it be wiser to keep them in the back of an infantry unit and sweep them out from there then perhaps? My table set up was essentially all infantry in the middle of my deployment, one RBT on either side, and the Dragon Princes got deployed just to one side of an RBT. As soon as they started moving they were a target, sadly. So I wonder if it's better to "screen" them with infantry for a bit - maybe behind the 15 of LSG and then with their higher movement, pull them out and around a bit later?

With the dragon mage, I wonder as well if it's better to make him a Lvl2 wizard and use him like I would a normal mage ... just from the behind of units utilizing my dragon fire first? Granted it's only a Str 2 but it's annoying all the same.

[dabber]

Vs. Druchii - Shadow Warriors FTW. Only at eight, I managed to only lose one and they completely ran down a largish unit of Corsairs - shot at them first, after they took some dragon fire in the butt, and then got into combat.

That's really wierd. If you call them "largish", even after a bit of shooting they should have +2 ranks, a banner and numbers. In the flank, you enter combat down 3 and only get 5 or 6 attacks. Even generous rolls on your side and whiffs on their side should see you lose on the musician.

Never charge the dragon mage into combat unless you can only touch 1 or 2 clearly killable models. Like the flank of Dark Riders. Any more models than that risks not dropping them all, and letting the enemy attack means dead mage.

[MadassAlex]

With the dragon mage, I wonder as well if it's better to make him a Lvl2 wizard and use him like I would a normal mage ... just from the behind of units utilizing my dragon fire first? Granted it's only a Str 2 but it's annoying all the same.

Remember that Dragon Fire forces a Panic test. That's its greatest strength.

As for using the Dragon Mage, you're on the right track with the Lvl 2 idea. He's essentially an exceptionally powerful wizard that can take take advantage of weak points in the enemy lines through combat. I'd give him Lvl 2, the Silver Wand and the Guardian Phoenix, Golden Crown of Atrazar or Dispel Scrolls/Power Stones.
Just remember that he's the ultimate glass cannon. Hit hard and fast with him, and keep causing damage. The best way to keep him alive is to remove the enemy, which he frankly excels at.