1500 points versus DE

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Candy Chesthair
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1500 points versus DE

#1 Post by Candy Chesthair »

Well then, here we go...


Heroes

Noble -161 points
lance
dragon armour
barded elven steed
enchanted shield
reaver bow

Mage -185 points
level 2
the seerstaf of saphery
dispell scroll


Core

Archers -110 points


Special

Lion Chariot of Chrace - 140 points

Lion Chariot of Chrace - 140 points

5 Dragon Princes of Caledor - 245 points
Drakemaster
Talisman of Loec
Standard Bearer
Standard of Balance

14 Phoenix Guard - 315 points
Keeper of the Flame
The Skeinsliver
Musician
Standard Bearer
Banner of Sorcery


Rare

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100 points

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100 points



1496 points total

Opponent

I will be facing my regular DE opponent. I'll expect him to bring either heavy magic or a master on manticore. A hydra for sure, as well as cold one knights, dark riders and some repeater crossbowelfs. Shades with assassin or harpies are a possibility. Probably no executioners, witchelfs, cauldron or black guard.

Movement

My army is quite fast and mobile, but I miss some very fast redirectors. There´s just no more room for eagles, reavers or even shadow warriors. This could cause some problems, but I feel I need the other units against this opponent.

Magic

My mage will join the phoenix guard. The mage can cherry pick his spells. If my opponent goes magic heavy, I'll choose high-lore to drain his magic, curse of arrow attraction to make my RTBs more effective and fury of khaine to fry some elfflesh.

If there is no magic? Should I go more offensive? Fire-lore or maybe magic? What about beast to screw the hydra?

Shooting

Phoenixguard and a chariot will guard my missile battery. I'll concentrated my fire and cause as many panic checks as possible. I´ve also given my noble the reaverbow to get some high strength hits on enemy units during the first few turns.

Should I first go and shoot the hydra or direct my fire on units carrying wizards?

Combat

I'll have a good anvil with the phoenixguard. They also will have to guard the shooting units, so they will stick to their flank together with a chariot. The dragon princes and the noble are my hammer and will run down the other flank. The Talisman on my champion allows me to take out the hydra. The unit is backuped by the other chariot.




So, what do you guys think of this list? I've thought long and hard and really tinkered on this list, so please leave some good comments. I feel this will give the DE a hard time and it looks fun to play with.

Greetings,

Roy
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." -Sigmund Freud

High Elves 7th edition: W/L/D: 7/3/2
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Flame of the Asuryan
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#2 Post by Flame of the Asuryan »

Goedendag,

One thing I am not so sure about is the Reaverbow. I mean, unless your Commander is NOT going in the Dragon princes, your Commander will be more often in combat than shooting. Or else, the unit is in my opinion useless, unless you really go for deployment in depth and go for a counter-defensive doctrine for this army.

If you go for the last option, I see that the Skeinsliver is very on its place here.

For your shooting, I would definately kill his Manticore first, then Cold One Knights, then Hydra. Use your Longbows to take on Shades and his Crossbowmen.

I should VERY carefully read the description of Talisman of Loec, then use it to either kill his Manticore or the Hydra. (Just as you described). (for more information, see ToL and Regeneration topic)

Veel geluk!

Aenar
-"Humans are the cruelest of animals" Friedrich Nietzsche -
zekk
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#3 Post by zekk »

Also meby a nice but kinda cheesy one is use the phoenix guard special char flaming attacks and does D3 wounds on a model with US 2 or more. That should able to kill his manticore and war hydra if you got a little luck.
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Candy Chesthair
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#4 Post by Candy Chesthair »

Flame of the Asuryan wrote: One thing I am not so sure about is the Reaverbow. I mean, unless your Commander is NOT going in the Dragon princes, your Commander will be more often in combat than shooting. Or else, the unit is in my opinion useless, unless you really go for deployment in depth and go for a counter-defensive doctrine for this army.

If you go for the last option, I see that the Skeinsliver is very on its place here.
The noble will go with dragonprinces, yes, but I have found being able to put an addition 3 BS6 S5 shots out the first one or two turns very useful. The main tactic I will be executing is to deploy protected firebase on one side of the field, while mopping up the other with the dragon princes and chariots.

Flame of the Asuryan wrote: I should VERY carefully read the description of Talisman of Loec, then use it to either kill his Manticore or the Hydra. (Just as you described). (for more information, see ToL and Regeneration topic)
I have been reading that topic, yes, and I am very looking forward to use the ToL.

zekk wrote: Also meby a nice but kinda cheesy one is use the phoenix guard special char flaming attacks and does D3 wounds on a model with US 2 or more. That should able to kill his manticore and war hydra if you got a little luck.
We won't be using any special characters, nor do I have the model. Thanks for the input anyway. :D


Some more comments anyone?

Thanks and greetings,

Roy
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." -Sigmund Freud

High Elves 7th edition: W/L/D: 7/3/2
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Seredain
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#5 Post by Seredain »

Hi Roy,

I really like this list. It packs one hell of a punch for a 1500 pt list but also has deadly ranged capability.

Honestly I think you've made some excellent choices. Skeinsliver is a very good idea because you need that first turn to make your shooting count. I can also see what you're doing with the reaver bow- getting two turns of shooting in early then counter-attacking with your hero and fast units. This is a classic High Elf tactic. Careful with your hero's deployment on this one but I think it could work.

The key choice is what lore to give your mage, and this will depend on whether your opponent has the Ring of Hotek or not. If he takes the manticore then I expect he'll keep his Knights, Hydra and Manticore together, with the ring on the Cold One champ. Take metal to snipe the champ (and I'd also go for the lead spell to dull his attack), or High on the basis that the arrow curse can be cast on 2 dice so isn't likely to miscast.

Don't know about beast cowers... it rocks but he'll do anything to dispel it and it's a high enough level to piss the ring off. If you do take beasts I'd recommend Cowers for all his attacking units and Wolf Hunts to boost your attack. If you can get these spells off then, Hotek willing, you'll kick his ass. At least wolf hunts should avoid the ring if it's there.

If he's magic heavy, take High. If you choose arrow curse and fury, as you've suggested, then with drain magic you'll have 3 'must dispel' spells which should put pressure under your opponent's dispel dice.

Great list. Let us know how it gets on.


Cheers,

Rando (S).


Edit: I'd like to see another dragon prince added to your unit as 5 is a bit weak for a unit which is so important to your plan. Only I don't know where you'd get the points... Skeinsliver's only really worth going for if you know that you'll have fewer units to deploy than your opponent- a +2 bonus for the first turn is worth the 25 pts but it'll only be 50/50 if he finishes deploying first and that won't be. Your chariots make your unit drops quite numerous, whereas if he's taking scouts and spending a lot of points on characters (manticore), he might have only a few drops.

If his army is smaller than yours, maybe lose the skeinsliver and your noble's dragon armour (if he's with the DP's then he'll be safe from hydra fire anyway), and get an extra DP for your unit.
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Candy Chesthair
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#6 Post by Candy Chesthair »

Seredain wrote: Edit: I'd like to see another dragon prince added to your unit as 5 is a bit weak for a unit which is so important to your plan. Only I don't know where you'd get the points... Skeinsliver's only really worth going for if you know that you'll have fewer units to deploy than your opponent- a +2 bonus for the first turn is worth the 25 pts but it'll only be 50/50 if he finishes deploying first and that won't be. Your chariots make your unit drops quite numerous, whereas if he's taking scouts and spending a lot of points on characters (manticore), he might have only a few drops.

If his army is smaller than yours, maybe lose the skeinsliver and your noble's dragon armour (if he's with the DP's then he'll be safe from hydra fire anyway), and get an extra DP for your unit.
Hi Rando,

Thanks for your input. To follow your advice: I could drop 2 phoenix guard and add one dragon prince. This would also balance out the pointdifference between these two main battle unit.

About the skeinsliver, I am not really sure what to do. I love getting the first turn, but I have to deploy 7 units with this list. I don't expect my opponent to have 8, maybe not even 7 units, so I'll be facing a +1 on the roll on his side. My skeinsliver will then just even out the odds. Is it worth it then, considering the advantages first turn gives this list.

Greetings,

Roy
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." -Sigmund Freud

High Elves 7th edition: W/L/D: 7/3/2
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Seredain
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#7 Post by Seredain »

Roy,

Remember that war machines are all deployed at the same time, so they'll only count as one drop, meaning you'll have 6 in total.

Tough call, this one. I think you need the 6 dragon princes either way- the unit's too important to be only 5 strong.

As to decideding whether to lose the skeinsliver or 2 PG, just have a quick think about what units he's likely to field. His characters and shades won't count as unit drops. So, that leaves:

Cold One Knights,
Crossbows (1 unit or 2?)
Hydra
Witch Elves?
Execs?

Do a quick tally and if you think he has 6 or more drops then definitely take the skeinsliver for the +1 or +2 and lose the 2 PG for that extra DP.

If it's less than 6 (ie his army's smaller than yours), then honestly I don't think the 25 pts is worth it just to level the odds as to who starts first. It would be useful, but it isn't enough of a sure thing to justify the expense. If you do have to go second, deploy your fast units behind terrain and keep your shooters deployed back. His crossbows shouldn't be allowed to hit you in turn 1 - you have much better range.

Good luck!


Cheers,

Rando.

Edit Small correction- you'll never have a situation where you and your opponent both finish deploying at the same time and you get a +1 for the first turn, as you take it in turns to deploy your units with a roll-off to decide who wants to drop first. That means you'll only either get a +2 chance to go first if you finish deploying first, or only 50/50 chance if he does. In other words you have to be sure that you'll finish deploying first before you decide to take the skeinsliver.

If he's taking a master & manticore and an assassin in his shades, that's a lot of point on units which don't count as drops. With your two chariots, I'd say you'll finish deploying last, so probably best to drop the skeinsliver. If he's going magic heavy then it's a judgment call for you I reckon!
Last edited by Seredain on Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#8 Post by Bishop »

I agree that most heavy Calvary units should be 6 strong.

IMO, the only exceptions are VERY heavy Calvary (like Blood Knights, Chaos Knights, Grail Knights).
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#9 Post by Candy Chesthair »

Seredain wrote:Roy,

Remember that war machines are all deployed at the same time, so they'll only count as one drop, meaning you'll have 6 in total.

Tough call, this one. I think you need the 6 dragon princes either way- the unit's too important to be only 5 strong.

As to decideding whether to lose the skeinsliver or 2 PG, just have a quick think about what units he's likely to field. His characters and shades won't count as unit drops. So, that leaves:

Cold One Knights,
Crossbows (1 unit or 2?)
Hydra
Witch Elves?
Execs?

Do a quick tally and if you think he has 6 or more drops then definitely take the skeinsliver for the +1 or +2 and lose the 2 PG for that extra DP.

If it's less than 6 (ie his army's smaller than yours), then honestly I don't think the 25 pts is worth it just to level the odds as to who starts first. It would be useful, but it isn't enough of a sure thing to justify the expense. If you do have to go second, deploy your fast units behind terrain and keep your shooters deployed back. His crossbows shouldn't be allowed to hit you in turn 1 - you have much better range.

Good luck!


Cheers,

Rando.

Edit Small correction- you'll never have a situation where you and your opponent both finish deploying at the same time and you get a +1 for the first turn, as you take it in turns to deploy your units with a roll-off to decide who wants to drop first. That means you'll only either get a +2 chance to go first if you finish deploying first, or only 50/50 chance if he does. In other words you have to be sure that you'll finish deploying first before you decide to take the skeinsliver.

If he's taking a master & manticore and an assassin in his shades, that's a lot of point on units which don't count as drops. With your two chariots, I'd say you'll finish deploying last, so probably best to drop the skeinsliver. If he's going magic heavy then it's a judgment call for you I reckon!
Well, on the deployment / first turn issue, it seems I have been playing that wrong with my warhammer opponents. I have just read the book carefully and I guess you are right.

When I ran 5 vintage dragon princes in other games they never really managed to do their job right, so I think you are right about using 6 instead of 5.

I'll think about some more and will either use 5 DP and the skeinsliver (The noble will pack some extra punch) or use 6 DP and drop the sliver and trade dragonarmour for heavy armour on the noble.

I think I'll make a battlereport on the game tonight, so I'll keep you updated.

Thanks for the comments!

Greetings,

Roy
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." -Sigmund Freud

High Elves 7th edition: W/L/D: 7/3/2
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Candy Chesthair
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#10 Post by Candy Chesthair »

Well, I have played the game yesterday. I used the list without skeinsliver and added an extra DP. I managed to get a minor victory, so that's nice.

My opponent brought 2 sorceress, a BSB with the pendant and an assassin. Two units of dark riders (one with crossbows), harpies, cold one knights (ASF banner, null talisman, BSB is here), shades, a hydra, an unit RXB and shades.

Drain magic really helped me out. My mage really managed to stop the DE magic.

I totally screwed up with my dragonprinces. They didn't reach combat at all. They weren't deployed very good and I couldn't charge a thing. There were plenty of targets, but the threat of getting a failed charge and getting shot to piece was to great in my opinion. I have the feeling I somethink really wrong here. The unit was about 450 points (including the noble) and it only got the shoot with the reaver bow (which did fantastic, earning it's points back trice).

The chariots got destroyed but one of them killed the hydra. This wasn't according to plan, because this was the primary goal of the dragonprinces, but the chariot did great. Anyway, I was really happy when the monstrosity went down.

Shades RXB really hurt me. They were in a forest and I couldn't do much about it.

The phoenixguard eventually killed some coldone knights and provided a nice bunker for my mage. However they did not manage to protect the RBT's. They both were destroyed.

My archers did great, killing a unit of darkriders and capturing a table quarter.

The assassin was really useless. I scrolled it's steed of shadow boundspell when he revealed it. Then I shot it's unit of RXB's and they had to flee. After that they were to far away to present a threat anymore.



So, does anyone have some comments on this? I have the feeling things could have went much better. Next time, I'll probably drop the reaverbow and go much more aggressive with the dragonprinces.

Greetings,

Roy
Last edited by Candy Chesthair on Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." -Sigmund Freud

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#11 Post by dabber »

Candy Chesthair wrote:I totally screwed up with my dragonprinces.... the threat of getting a failed charge and getting shot to piece was to great in my oppion.
Shot to pieces by what? He didn't bring RBTs, so you were afraid of 10 crossbows and some shades? Go charge the shades!

Infantry units are rarely good at protecting artillery, unless you can castle around the artillery.
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#12 Post by Candy Chesthair »

dabber wrote:Shot to pieces by what? He didn't bring RBTs, so you were afraid of 10 crossbows and some shades? Go charge the shades!.
I guess that would have been much better. I simply was playing to much on defence with such a nice offensive unit.
dabber wrote:[
Infantry units are rarely good at protecting artillery, unless you can castle around the artillery.
Yes, that is one lesson learned.

Greetings,

Roy
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." -Sigmund Freud

High Elves 7th edition: W/L/D: 7/3/2
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