2250pt HE Tournament List (3rd Modification - IDEAS!?!? PLZ)

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Kiwi
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2250pt HE Tournament List (3rd Modification - IDEAS!?!? PLZ)

#1 Post by Kiwi »

Going to be playing in my first official WHFB tournament in May and so I need to work out a decent 2,250pt army list for my High Elves (or my Dwarfs?!?)

Anyway first draft of High Elf list is

Archmage Level 4 (GENERAL) [with Phoenix Guard]
w. Folraiths Robe, Seerstaff of Saphery

Dragon Mage Level 2
w. Silver Wand, Guardian Phoenix

Noble [with Spears]
w. HA, GW, Helm of Fortune & BSB

Spear Elves x23
w. Musician, Standard Bearer & Lion Banner

Archers x10
w. LA & Musician

Swordmasters x12
w. Musician, Standard Bearer

Phoenix Guard x18
w. Musician & Standard Bearer & Banner of Sorcery

Dragon Princes x7
w. Musician, Standard Bearer & Banner of Ellyrion

Shadow Warriors x5

Bolt Thrower

TOTAL 2,247pts

I really want to take my Dragon, but as I have a mage figure glued to it I can only use it as a Mage mount or as a Dragon Mage tournament doesnt allow proxies. But my options are open to leaving it behind...

I have reviewed the other lists on here and other forums, and think this is heading in the right direction but would really appreciate some help from the more experienced members of the community.

So many options - HELP Smile
Last edited by Kiwi on Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2250pt HE Tournament List (My first one ever)

#2 Post by dabber »

In general, the dragon mage is not considered a good choice. But he could be fun. If you expect to face GW GT level power builds, he really needs to go. But if people are going to play reasonable lists, keep him and see what happens.
Kiwi wrote:Noble [with Spears]
w. HA, GW, Helm of Fortune & BSB
If you aren't going to give him a horse, the Helm is not worthwhile. Armour of Caledor would be better. Or give him a horse and keep the helm.
Get him dragon armour in some fashion. The immunity to various characters, especially things like daemons, is game changing.
Figment187 wrote:Archers x10
w. LA & Musician
Never never buy light armour for archers. 10 pts wasted. I think the musician is wasted points as well, because if the archers don't rally, you shrug and move on.

One bolt thrower and no Eagles looks like a weakness to me. I love Swordmasters, but I would lose some (and their banner) to at least get an Eagle. I would also much rather have an Eagle than a unit of Shadow Warriors. Cheaper and much more mobile.
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#3 Post by Kiwi »

Cheers for that - taking the Dragon is more about playing it because I love the model. Unfortunately I dont have any Eagles (very hard to get in NZ)... so how about the following modified list

Archmage Level 4
- Folraiths Robe, Seerstaff of Saphery

Noble
- Helm of Fortune, Sword of Might, Barded Steed, DA + Lance

Noble
- Armour of Caledor, BSB

Spears x24
- MU, Lion Standard

Archers x10

Swordmasters x12
- MU & Standard of Arcane Protection

Phoenix Guard x18
- MU & Banner of Sorcery

Shadow Warriors x5

Dragon Princes x5
- Full Command w. Banner of Ellyrion

Silver Helms x8
- Shields, MU, SB

Bolt-Thrower x2

Rather than take another Mage I thought I would add the Mounted Noble to the DP's and slot in a unit of Silver Helms to give me more bodies.
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#4 Post by Philfy »

I assume Kiwi that you are referring to Runefang II in regards to the tourney you are taking it too...

If this is the case then for the reference of others here it is using the Oz/Nz tier system for comp and has a heavy comp weighting (30% of overall score).

Kiwi, you have made a good start there... but:

Your first list was probably better than your second.

If you drop your Swordmasters back to an optimum 6/7, and your Dragon princes back to 5/6 then you will have the spare points for the second bolt-thrower

Bear in mind that in general anything more than 10 Power dice is frowned upon in regards to comp in the environment here atm. So whilst Archmage + Dragonmage is fine, Banner of Sorcery puts you a little over the top.

Drop your spear elves back to either 18 or 20 + Lion Standard. Frees up a few points and keeps them at optimal unit sizes...

I like Light Armour on my own archers (use it constantly), but drop the muso.

Don't waste your time with Heavy Armour on Characters. DRAGON ARMOUR every single time. Nothing funnier than wandering up to a Bloodthirster with a flaming sword and saying "boo". Granted he'll outnumber you and you'd likely still lose the combat... but in a challenge situation you are laughing. You get my drift?

There's a few things that should hopefully help you out...

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#5 Post by Kiwi »

Philfy wrote:I assume Kiwi that you are referring to Runefang II in regards to the tourney you are taking it too...
Yeah it is?!? Are you going as well? Nice to know there are other Kiwis on these forums, should have expected that

Philfy wrote:Kiwi, you have made a good start there... but:

Your first list was probably better than your second.

If you drop your Swordmasters back to an optimum 6/7, and your Dragon princes back to 5/6 then you will have the spare points for the second bolt-thrower
I had thought about units of SM of 6or7 but worried about them being chopped down by missle fire first, but I guess that way I could field 2 units of 7? So, the Dragon Mage isn't overkill in first list then?
Philfy wrote:Bear in mind that in general anything more than 10 Power dice is frowned upon in regards to comp in the environment here atm. So whilst Archmage + Dragonmage is fine, Banner of Sorcery puts you a little over the top.
The RUNEFANG II player pack emphasises it is a beginners tournament, and while it is my first one of those I have been playing for a little while so am not that inexperienced. Wasn't aware of the 10+ PD being frowned upon, I've always liked taking a lot of the things (as a Dwarf player I enjoy magic when I get my hands on it) so ill drop the Banner of Sorcery and add something else in to keep the list fair.

Cheers for other pointers too - I had thought about 20xSpearmen, but I like the additional 4 models as it protects my rank bonus somewhat and gives me slightly better CR

Modified list up soonish
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#6 Post by Kiwi »

Ok updated list taking into account everyones comments so far

Archmage Level 4
- Folraiths Robe, Seerstaff of Saphery

Dragon Mage Level 2
- Silver Wand

Noble
- Battle Standard, Armour of Caledor, Great Weapon

Spears x21
- MU, SB & Lion Standard

Archers x10

Swordmasters x7
- FC

Swordmasters x6
- FC

Phoenix Guard x18
- MU & SB

Dragon Princes x6
- MU, SB & Banner of Ellyrion

Bolt-Throwersx2

Shadow Warriors x5
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#7 Post by garythewargamer »

HERO

I like them mostly but the dragon mage needs some protection, Guardian Phoniex is about the best. I love the dragon mage.

core units no full command on the spearman. As you do not say where you are placing the mages it may not matter. A champion in the unit where the mage is placed is a must.

Special what is the purpose of full command on the two units of sword masters. Remember every banner you let your opponent capture in close combat is 100 points. There is no reason to pay the 12 points on the sword masters without giving them a banner. I run two units like you do and on one I upgrade to blade lord and give him the amulet of light. The other I put a standard bear with the banner of Ellyrion but you are using it on the Dragon princes which is a better choice.

Here in the US comp is nearly going by the wayside, anyway 10 pd is not considered over the top. Look at the banner of sorcery that you could always only get 1 extra power die. But your local players probably know the best.

I like war eagles but your list looks like it should do alright. Please keep us informed.
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#8 Post by Gildor777 »

I agree with Gary, the full cmd on the swordmasters is unneeded. If you want to keep the champions for the extra attacks on a flank, fine. But no Standards. That will free up enough points to give the Dragon Mage the Guardian Phoenix to try to keep him alive, and a scroll for the archmage to stop at least one big bad spell. I would also consider the Warbanner with the Ph. Guard to give them a bit more CR if you don't keep the swordmaster Champions. Where do you plan on putting the BSB?
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#9 Post by Kiwi »

Thanks guys really appreaciate the feedback. I have until end of next week to finalise list (I think) and I will get to play test it at least twice before then.

Archmage Level 4 [With Phoenix Guard]
- Folraiths Robe, Seerstaff of Saphery

Dragon Mage Level 2
- Silver Wand, Guardian Phoenix

Noble [With Spears]
- Battle Standard, Armour of Caledor, Great Weapon

Spears x20
- FC & Lion Standard

Archers x10

Swordmasters x7

Swordmasters x6

Phoenix Guard x17
- FC & Banner of Sorcery

Dragon Princes x5
- MU, SB & Banner of Ellyrion

Bolt-Throwersx2

Shadow Warriors x5

---

One other question, I have noticed that the Lore of Fire seems to be the preferred choice for ppl when they talk about tournament play. But High Magic has some good protective spells, what Lore would you recommend for the Archmage?
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#10 Post by Lhachmacar »

For an archmage I have a difficult time taking anything but High Magic, and IMO it is also in the hands of an archmage that High Magic really shines. Unlike Fire which is 100% damage dealing spells (with the occasional side effect like Wall's ability to force your opponent to make hard choices about mobility), High Magic is kind of a grab bag of useful spells - thus unless you are relying on Drain Magic + Shield spam with a lower level caster to really make full use of the list you need as many of the spells on the list as possible so that you always have the right spell for the right situation. It's also for this reason that I tend to equip my archmage with the Silver Wand, since then I know I will only be missing one spell on the list. Plus you already have a Dragon Mage for the pure blasting side of magic. ;)

*If* you think it is likely that the tournament will be dominated by VC and Daemons, I'd also strongly consider Lore of Light. Cleansing Flare spam is absolutely devastating against those armies and pretty effective in general play as well, especially if your archmage is embedded in a large block of Phoenix Guard as yours appears to be. In addition Radiant Gaze is also golden for clearing out undead (particularly Varghulfs and those pesky Blood Knight + regen banner units), Dazzling Brightness saves lives, Guardian Light provides an excellent psychology shield, and Pha's Illumination has great synergy with Foliarth's robe (since as a side effect it's a castable Talisman of Saphery). The casting numbers on Light are also a steal which helps stretch your power dice farther. Just a few points to consider, best of luck to you!
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#11 Post by geoguswrek »

Death in some games, Beasts in others.
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127
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#12 Post by ArchmageAlthos »

double post sorry
Last edited by ArchmageAlthos on Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#13 Post by ArchmageAlthos »

I'd suggest a bunch of lores depending on who you are fighting.

high magic: Its a great all around lore. That 5+ ward save could be used to give a dragon a save. Curse of arrow attraction to pepper something. Flames of the Phoenix to wipe out hordes...list goes on.

Fire: Good against all...its your overall lore

Metal: This is great against dwarves, warriors of chaos, and empire. The first spell can pick out characters (heavily armoured of course) that you really don't want to fight. The second spell for stopping warmachines from shooting or chariots from charging. The number 6 spell is a bane to all things that are armoured (knights, warriors, ironbreakers).

Shadow: pit of shades is great for taking out warmachines (and anything with low Initiative). However, after the movement spell, its hard to use this lore effectively.

Beasts: Good against monsters. This becomes my automatic lore if someone has a dragon or big scary monster. Your archmage can be combat character and still have an ok damage offense. This lore I generally only take against something big and ugly (unless you have a mage knight :D )

Heavens: Its not dead yet! Since your archmage has the seer ability this lore has some bang again. You can choose to reroll important dice, shield anything (including that dragon) with the 4+ ward save, and take on heavily armoured knights (or pick on warriors too). The comet is nothing to laugh at when its coming straight at you too.

Light: Good against anything deamon or 'ethereal'. Healing could save that dragon mage. Everything else that was mentioned earlier is great.

Life: The least used but could be the most effective based on terrain. This is the bane of all scouting. Rain lord is great against shoot, but if you need shooting defense howler wind is awesome (great against gun lines or wood elves). Otherwise unless there is lots of terrain I wouldn't take this (unless you want to fully heal your dragon/mage from time to time :D )

Death: I really love it. This would help you greatly too. Cast Doom and Darkness on an enemy unit you want gone, plop your dragon near by, and boom! You have dwarves even scared with their leadership 6 (great for taking out warmachines or those pesky ironbreakers.). You can watch them sweat when their ld 10 general has the courage of a human. Just off of this spell alone I'd advised this lore. Drain life is a great area of effect spell. Warriors fear it as well as horde. Causing fear could keep certain units on the board (i.e. Dragon Princes) or make another terror bomb by making your phoenix guard cause terror (great against horde as well as combined Doom and Darkness). On top of all that you still have a d6 and 2d6 str 4 damage spell and you can even pick out characters and do a wound against them. Except against warriors (metal might be better against them) or immune to psychology units (usually they are horde)

So...I love magic and I use it in every game. But Death is by far the greatest especially with terror bombs.
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#14 Post by Marinero »

Kiwi wrote:Thanks guys really appreaciate the feedback. I have until end of next week to finalise list (I think) and I will get to play test it at least twice before then.

Archmage Level 4 [With Phoenix Guard]
- Folraiths Robe, Seerstaff of Saphery

Dragon Mage Level 2
- Silver Wand, Guardian Phoenix

Noble [With Spears]
- Battle Standard, Armour of Caledor, Great Weapon

Spears x20
- FC & Lion Standard

Archers x10

Swordmasters x7

Swordmasters x6

Phoenix Guard x17
- FC & Banner of Sorcery

Dragon Princes x5
- MU, SB & Banner of Ellyrion

Bolt-Throwersx2

Shadow Warriors x5

---

One other question, I have noticed that the Lore of Fire seems to be the preferred choice for ppl when they talk about tournament play. But High Magic has some good protective spells, what Lore would you recommend for the Archmage?
This is a very good list. I think that you should definitely stry it.

I do not use the robe, as there are a lot of amies in my area with troops with magical attacks (VC, WE, DoC) and also a lot of magic heavy armies. When I run a DM+Archmage list, my preffered combo for the DM is like the one you have chosen, but I occasionaly add in the Sword of Might for insurance. The archmage always goes with seerstaff, dispel scroll and ring of fury. It really helps to have 1 scroll, as sometime it is really critical to be able to stop a certain spell.

As for the lore for the AM, high magic usually is best when you have a DM especially when you do not have seer. If you give him the seerstaff, then in some cases you can use metal for the fury of the forge (in armies with lots of heavy cavalry or stank/dragon/treeman) or shadow for pits of shades against low I armies or steed of shadows against most ;)
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#15 Post by Kiwi »

Thanks again everybody - ill try dropping the Seerstaff and adding in a couple of scrolls. Just checked my player pack and I have till end of next month to submit list so lots of time to play test.

First match this week is against Skaven who I have limited experience against, but my opponent is an experienced tournament player.

Another question - how do you recommend deploying the small units of Swordmasters? I'm taking the advice and running with units of 6 & 7 but am worried about them being shot to shreds before they get into combat

I was thinking of deploying the Spears & PG in front with one unit of Swords behind each one
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#16 Post by garythewargamer »

With small units of sword masters it seems as if two tactics work. Try to hide them behind terrain or throw shield of saphrey on them. It does not always work but sometimes it does. I have never ran them behind spears, that might work.
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#17 Post by Kiwi »

Played first practice match with this list last night slight change in overall list which saw drop the Seerstaff of Saphery and add a Dispel Scroll, and add the Banner of Sorcery to the PG.

2,250 vs. Skaven - end result a very bloody draw 2106pts to me vs. 1920 pts to him.

List worked well so thank you everyone for your input, would have worked better but for my Archmage blowing himself up with a miscast on his first spell in TURN 1?!?!?

Question though
-Is it worth dropping the Shadow Warriors & BoS to fit in another unit of DP?
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#18 Post by Marinero »

With a Lvl 4 and a DM you really need the Banner of Sorcery.

It might be worth dropping the SW for a TC though
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#19 Post by Kiwi »

Yeah the Banner of Sorcery came in very handy near the end after the Archmage died, so will be keeping that in there

So you think a Chariot would be better served than the SW? I never really rated them that much

Next playtest is vs. Empire
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#20 Post by Marinero »

Both our chariots are very good and useful. The TC in particular has the extra bonus of being quite cheap (for HE standards). So in addition of offering damage interdiction and threat area of 18', it also can be used to divert enemies as a last resort or for suicide missions. Being able to sacrifice a unit is quite often important, so the access to cheap sacrificial units is a benefit for any army. The cheapest units in our army are:
1. the great eagle
2. a unit of 5 elite infantry - SM, PG, WL
3. 5 Shadow warriors
4. Tyranoc chariot
5. 5xER

The TC has one of best charge ranges which increased the probability of it getting a charge, and in addition has a strong punch when it does manage to charge.

I think that SW are quite useful though, so if they fit your playstyle do keep them. They will rarely win their points back numerically, but their effect on the game hase been huge quite often. Their main uses are:
1. Distract a disproportionally larger enemy force to take them out, allowing you a few turns of 'points' advantage
2. March blocking - they have been quite good at this
3. War machine hunting
4. Denying his scouts good postions - this can be huge, as some of the scouts (druchii shades in particular) can be terribly nasty

Overall, 80 points paid for a unit of 5 is usually a good investment, especially if delaying the enemy to allow you more turns to shoot and magic them is important for your battle plan.

However, in fast assault lists the TC is much better, so at the end of the day it comes down to what is their role in your army
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#21 Post by Rumor »

Yo, another kiwi here considering the trip down to Welly for my 1st tourney, still havent made up my mind if I would take my HE or Ogres though, have only now painted 2 minis in my HE army (though appearance isnt a judging criteria) and I have a couple of units in my Ogres done (finished Skrag tonight but no Specials, doh!).

I was considering a Prince/DM/Mage combo as one possibility or sticking with a Prince/Mage/Mage/Noble setup if I took the HE, so many decisions!
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#22 Post by Red_Lep »

Since you said its very hard to get a Great Eagle, have you thought about using a WE Warhawk instead? They look pretty good IMO and I believe they use the same base.

Just a thought.
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#23 Post by Kiwi »

@ Red_Lep - i've investigated the warhawk idea looks like a good option, cheers for the advice

After first play-test of this list against a Skaven army last week, which ended in a very bloody draw, I have reworked the list for a match against Ogres tomorrow night.

Archmage - Lvl 4 [with Phoenix Guard]
- Folraiths Robe, Staff of Solidity, Dispell Scroll

Dragon Mage - Lvl 2
- Silver Wand, Guardian Phoenix

Noble [with Spears]
- BSB, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Gem of Courage

Spears x20
- FC, Lion Banner

Archers x10

Swordmasters x6

Swordmasters x6

Phoenix Guard x16
- FC, Banner of Sorcery

Dragon Princes x5
- MU, SB, Banner of Ellyrion

Bolt-Thrower

Bolt-Thrower

Tiranoc Chariot

TOTAL - 2,238 pts
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#24 Post by PapaElf »

hi,
I'd suggest a minor tweak. I don't think the Spears/BSB need the Gem of Courage. After all, the unit already has the Lion Banner and re-roll ability due to the BSB.

Therefore I would drop the Gem" and give the BSB the "Guardian Phoenix" and the mage a Dispel Scroll.
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#25 Post by Kiwi »

I did think about that, but I would kind of like the ability to have an easier L/ship test when I need it
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Swordmaster Heavy

#26 Post by Kiwi »

Making a couple of changes aiming to make army for offensive in nature

Archmage - Lvl 4 [with Phoenix Guard]
- Folraiths Robe, Dispell Scroll, Dispell Scroll

Dragon Mage - Lvl 2
- Silver Wand, Guardian Phoenix

Noble [with Spears]
- BSB, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Gem of Courage

Spears x20
- FC, Lion Banner

Archers x10

Swordmasters x7

Swordmasters x7

Swordmasters x7

Phoenix Guard x18
- FC, Banner of Sorcery

Dragon Princes x6
- MU, SB, Banner of Ellyrion

Bolt-Thrower

- just thought I would try and run 3 units of Swordmasters this time, and drop a RBT
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