Glittering tower, information request.

Here you can discuss High Elf culture in all its aspects, be it their society, language, arts or philosophies. The results of your discussions will eventually be used to enlarge the amount of general information about the High elves on this site.

Moderators: The Heralds, The Loremasters

Message
Author
Shannar, Sealord
Very Helpful Elf
Posts: 4031
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:10 am
Location: Patroling the Sea Lanes

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#91 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

The dwarfs that live in the empire would of course support the empire fully. I'm not sure how many that is in the newer editions but in the past it was a lot. As for the others, I don't think they would really. They've settled into a peaceful if not overly friendly relationship with the elves, and wouldn't be excited to renew that fight. They remember the War of the Beard as well (or perhaps even better) then the elves. But, they also know it hurt them more then they could afford (just like the elves), and they have their hands full with skaven and goblins. Since they are also a dwindling race that is fighting for it's own survival I don't see them sending more then token forces in support of a sideshow.
User avatar
Elessehta of Yvresse
Well played Sir
Posts: 7811
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#92 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

You probably wouldn't see a grand alliance, but some Dawi clans would surely join the fight. Judging by the look of your empire dreadnought, they've already helped. It looks a bit like the dwarf ship from dreadfleet.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
dragonkingofthestars
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:27 pm

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#93 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:You probably wouldn't see a grand alliance, but some Dawi clans would surely join the fight. Judging by the look of your empire dreadnought, they've already helped. It looks a bit like the dwarf ship from dreadfleet.
Dreadnought? that was a GUNBOAT the smallest (in terms of size if not mass) ship in the empire fleet.
for battleships were looking at either ships like the HMS warrior, the Colossus class battle ship or actual dreadnoughts
Shannar, Sealord wrote:The dwarfs that live in the empire would of course support the empire fully. I'm not sure how many that is in the newer editions but in the past it was a lot. As for the others, I don't think they would really. They've settled into a peaceful if not overly friendly relationship with the elves, and wouldn't be excited to renew that fight. They remember the War of the Beard as well (or perhaps even better) then the elves. But, they also know it hurt them more then they could afford (just like the elves), and they have their hands
I think a few dozens posts back i mentioned laying the back ground for a dwarf civil war? well you hit the nail on the head there. the dwarfs basicly divide along those who live south, the area ruled by the breton board princes (and are people who are closer to the Bretons then the empire thanks to those board princes) and the main dwarf empire thats friendly with the Empire (ruledby the high king out of Karaz-A-Karak).

the exacte reason at the moment for the split is a bit fuzzy right now, (we are talking about a event almost 2-3 hundard years from the time i am writeing) the basic point is, King says do somthing that we norther holds aprove of, but the southern holds really don't like the idea and refuse.

the basic argument (and the one i shall research when i get to the time to acutal write the story assumeing i ever get THIS one done,) can be very much liked to the US civil war states rights VS federal goverment argument. should be intresting.

Again, if i ever get to that point.
User avatar
Elessehta of Yvresse
Well played Sir
Posts: 7811
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#94 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I meant the Ironclad ^_^'
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
User avatar
Aicanor
Rainbows
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:15 pm
Location: Tower of Hoeth

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#95 Post by Aicanor »

And even all those colossi didn't win them the war.
Thoughts? Well, they are now bent on killing every Human that sets a foot on sacred ground of Everqueen's realm in violence with arrow, sword, magic or if need be, dagger in the dark, until there are none or I am dead. And after, because death is really no reason for an Elf to stop protecting her. Yes, and remember the good old tale of Ar-Pharazon the proud?

As for the Dwarves, kinstrife? Heresy! About as unlikely as anything in WH world can get. Also, if the story in VC book is true, Dwarves would be honour bound to amend for their failure to protect Elven emissary. They do take these things seriously...
dragonkingofthestars
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:27 pm

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#96 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:I meant the Ironclad ^_^'
sorry.
Aicanor wrote:And even all those colossi didn't win them the war.
Thoughts? Well, they are now bent on killing every Human that sets a foot on sacred ground of Everqueen's realm in violence with arrow, sword, magic or if need be, dagger in the dark, until there are none or I am dead. And after, because death is really no reason for an Elf to stop protecting her. Yes, and remember the good old tale of Ar-Pharazon the proud?
ahh no, who's Ar-Pharazon the proud?
Bob of Beleriand
The Clubslinger
Posts: 1867
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:44 am

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#97 Post by Bob of Beleriand »

With all these tragedies befalling the Elder races and the Bretons, what other calamities befall the world? How are the Orcs and Goblins, Chaos and the Skaven?

For that matter how have the Empire seemingly ascended so unscathed so far?
User avatar
Aicanor
Rainbows
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:15 pm
Location: Tower of Hoeth

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#98 Post by Aicanor »

dragonkingofthestars wrote:ahh no, who's Ar-Pharazon the proud?
Let's just say Ar-Pharazôn the Golden wanted to take Immortal lands by force. Earthquake (read wrath of the gods) destroyed his army and his own land meanwhile was drowned by the sea. Something like that. It can happen to anyone really. :twisted: :wink:
It is part of the Akallabêth.
Shannar, Sealord
Very Helpful Elf
Posts: 4031
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:10 am
Location: Patroling the Sea Lanes

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#99 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Bob of Beleriand wrote:With all these tragedies befalling the Elder races and the Bretons, what other calamities befall the world? How are the Orcs and Goblins, Chaos and the Skaven?

For that matter how have the Empire seemingly ascended so unscathed so far?
It is the question of the day that seems to have no answer.
dragonkingofthestars
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:27 pm

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#100 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Bob of Beleriand wrote:With all these tragedies befalling the Elder races and the Bretons, what other calamities befall the world? How are the Orcs and Goblins, Chaos and the Skaven?

For that matter how have the Empire seemingly ascended so unscathed so far?
force multiplers.

technology means nothing unless you can use it to make your solider a better trooper.

take two soliders, a orkand a human. all things being equal, the ork has the advantage, give the human a sword he has a advantage over the ork. give the ork a choppa and he now has advantage over the human. give the human couple dozen buddys to back him up and he again has the advantage,,, until the ork gets some boyz to help him out. but if the humans are displined? they now have the advantage, desplite the numbers now even.

Charge, supplyed, rested, high ground, moral, displine, all are modifyers to how a unit of men will perform in battle. a unit with high moral, good supplys, and well rested is worth many times there inferiour counterparts.

now, in are ork vs human situation, what happnes if you throw in a gattling gun?

I'm bad with you tube links so here teh link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0O-Ts6p ... re=related and the relvent quote
With Gattling guns in your arsenal a crew of just four can do the job of four scoure trained rifle men
Four men, doing the job of 20, each.

that is key. the threats of the empire are still there, and while they are just as powerful as ever, the Empire can just plop a couple gattlings in front of a ork waagh, supported by a couple of regiments and just mop up. the empire solider can kill more orks, beastmen or what ever faster, at longer ranges more effectivly. after a couple goes of that well teh threats to the empire are much, much less.

mind you : i have not forgoten about these threats in fact they are what ulmately defeate the empire. not a grand final battle between teh high elves and the emprie, they just slowly pull out retract there lines until they almost compleatly leave. THe Empire has over stretch themseves more then a bit arrogent they though they could do too much with too little. and to a degree; they were right, they could do a lot, but not as much as they thought, not as much as they gamblied

the empire will fail, not fall, fail in there conquests and will be left a bitter husk torn by internal strife enemys at there doors, and no allies to call upon, for they have none, and if asked about it, eveyr citzen will say it's not there fault they were pushed into there wars.

by elven raiders, by boarder skimirshes and by the thrice be damned generals and polticions who just say over and over again, it's not are fault, but they have no one above them to blame.
Shannar, Sealord
Very Helpful Elf
Posts: 4031
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:10 am
Location: Patroling the Sea Lanes

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#101 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

now, in are ork vs human situation, what happnes if you throw in a gattling gun?
In all honesty, not that much. They didn't exactly end the Civil War even though only the north had them. In complete seriousness, one set of field radios and some observation balloons would make a bigger difference then a fully operational M1A2.
dragonkingofthestars
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:27 pm

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#102 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:
now, in are ork vs human situation, what happnes if you throw in a gattling gun?
In all honesty, not that much. They didn't exactly end the Civil War even though only the north had them. In complete seriousness, one set of field radios and some observation balloons would make a bigger difference then a fully operational M1A2.
the gatting was a example.

my point was, that each empite solider is vastly more combat effective, more dangerious then any other time in there histroy.

the range of a Springfield Model 1861 (rifle musket) had a max range of 1,000 yards (effective range of 400 yards but the empire understands the longer range better then the us Army did in the civl war and trains to us it better, so lets say a max effective range for the empire of about 600yards aimed fire only) that 600 yards that, that muskteer can reach out and touch you a tremendious distance.

by the time you reach him he has in all likely hood fired more then once. a human can run at 200 yards a minutes (sistanted and i do not fully belive that number so take it with a grain of salt) so in three minutes you reach the muskteer. so by the time you reach teh muskteer, he (and his budys) has fired nine times.

I think you get it. A empire solider can do more, much, much more then any other army on the planet at this moment and at this time. they don't need a vast standing army to fend off the beastmen or anything else*, they need a smaller force one that can out gun the enemy much like european armys did in there wars to form there empries.

*ok, there are two foes that a small highly drill almost prusien empire army has problems with, Ogres, and Skaven. Ogres because, well shoot them as much as you like they don't go down easy, (though Puckle guns help a lots) and Skaven, there just so many of them. but i feel it safe to say they are rare threats (ogres stay in the mountians and Skaven under ground) so genearly the emprie does not get even minor defeats enough to deflate there ego adn give them a more realiste look at what they can do.
Bob of Beleriand
The Clubslinger
Posts: 1867
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:44 am

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#103 Post by Bob of Beleriand »

I mean no offense or disrespect, however a narrative is boring without tension, drama or uncertainty. With the Empire seemingly, from what little of your plot you've revealed of course, they seem to be gaining every advantage to the point that they're a solitary power above and beyond everyone else.

The Gatling gun, in a sense, already exists in the 'present' timeline of the game in any case. The Ratling gun, it has done little to affect the balance. Beyond that, the most disciplined Imperial troops (approximately ld 8) are equal to Elven and Dwarf baselines and inferior to their own elite troops in that regard.

I'd dare to bring up the point of the grandest force multiplier that the Empire themselves are lacking in, Magic. Skaven and Orcs and Goblins the most immediate threats to the Empire arguably both posses superior mastery of Magic, with Skaven (in the present I don't know the details of your story) having the superior technology, or in the very least comparable.

But please, don't misunderstand my intent here. It is my aim and goal to challenge you and your ideas so that you consider them and approach them from a new angle and ultimately improve them from the benefit of the added scrutiny.
Shannar, Sealord
Very Helpful Elf
Posts: 4031
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:10 am
Location: Patroling the Sea Lanes

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#104 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Even orcs and gobblins should present a bigger problem. They are already within the boarders of the empire (same with beastmen). As far as saying the empire went in and cleared them out, it can't really be done. Here are some examples of that sort of fight. Russia in Afganistan, the US in Vietnam, the US in Afganistan, the US in Iraq. Technology is a nice force multiplier, but it does not win wars.
Bob of Beleriand
The Clubslinger
Posts: 1867
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:44 am

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#105 Post by Bob of Beleriand »

In fairness, the Afgahni's (in both examples), the Vietnamese and the Iraqis were all in possession of comparable technology.
Shannar, Sealord
Very Helpful Elf
Posts: 4031
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:10 am
Location: Patroling the Sea Lanes

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#106 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Not really though. With the exception of vietmam none of them had an airforce. None of them have tanks or armored vehicles close to anything we could put out there. They all have rifles similar to what they were facing, and that's it. They don't have GPS guided bombs, or the ability to call in an artillery strike anywhere they need one. Any thing else they had to capture or talk someone else into giving them (stinger missiles being the popular example against the russians, but the importance of these has been over blown. They were very effective against russian helicopters for a month or so until they adjusted.)

Most of the guys we lost while I was in Iraq were to IEDs. This is incredibly crude technology, and I could probably build one with things you have in your house. It's more about environment. People tend of overestimate the impact of technology on the battlefield. This is probably due to what happened in 1991. And in that sort of war (and in fact when we went into Iraq the 2nd time) technology is king. But when it comes time to hold onto your gains it isn't near as critical. It's usually more about an improvement in tactics and training.
the range of a Springfield Model 1861 (rifle musket) had a max range of 1,000 yards (effective range of 400 yards but the empire understands the longer range better then the us Army did in the civl war and trains to us it better, so lets say a max effective range for the empire of about 600yards aimed fire only) that 600 yards that, that muskteer can reach out and touch you a tremendious distance.
And this matters when you fight in open fields, and that's it. Our M-4 are much better at long range then the AKs (which they often don't even bother to sight in :wink: ) But in an urban environment that wasn't worth nearly as much as most people think.
Bob of Beleriand
The Clubslinger
Posts: 1867
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:44 am

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#107 Post by Bob of Beleriand »

I'm aware, however the aforementioned conflicts all followed a similar template in resisting the technologically superior force by declining to give open battle. I'd hazard to say however that by our context of several thousand year old technology (bows, torsion artillery et al) and rifled firearms, that AKs and AR-15 platforms are infinitely more comparable.
dragonkingofthestars
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:27 pm

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#108 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Bob of Beleriand wrote:I I mean no offense or disrespect, however a narrative is boring without tension, drama or uncertainty. With the Empire seemingly, from what little of your plot you've revealed of course, they seem to be gaining every advantage to the point that they're a solitary power above and beyond everyone else.
nope i have no problem with this but please allow me to counter you claims. first off, the empire has these advantages in a straight fight. if you go at them head on, your going to get torn apart. that is a fact. but there small, yet hyper dangerous army has some major flaws. first there supply train, you need to raid to interrupted the train of bullets and cartridges to the front line and they will very quickly get in trouble.

the Empire big, 700lb gorilla in the room weakness is this massive supply train. unlike a standard fantasy war story with climatic battles, the elves will be playing Guerrilla tactics (eventually, there going to need to get there rear handed to them a few times) trying to isolate formations, starve them of supply’s, then finish them off. the main narrative for Ulthan can be split into, (counts on fingers) at least five sub story’s that weave together to tell the tail of Ulthan, at the moment, more may be added or taken away.

first we have Admiral Adelhelm as keep trying to destroy the elven navy to stop the 'High elf' raids once and for all. while at the same time we find out a different admiral was sent to Ulthan, not him. (bit foggy on this but it will likely be there)

General:Ludwik, who performing the ground wart to get into the inner circle by dynamiteing his way though the phoenix gate, across a island where even the forests kill you (Lions)

Teclis: who provides perspective for the high elf noblity.

Alltha: of the sea guard who gives a common foot solider prospective for the elf war.

Musteers Johan and Izaak: they provide perspective for the human commoners as they work though Ulthan and try to deal with all the problems of a army, (i don't have enough boots and Oh there shooting at me)

all this with substorys who pop in and out, (along with the wars in Breton and Empire i am also doing at the same time) i think that is narrative enough woo
Bob of Beleriand wrote:The Gatling gun, in a sense, already exists in the 'present' timeline of the game in any case. The Ratling gun, it has done little to affect the balance. Beyond that, the most disciplined Imperial troops (approximately ld 8) are equal to Elven and Dwarf baselines and inferior to their own elite troops in that regard.
in moral, humans may be equal, but in equipment and training then the imperial troops are generally far far weaker, if you put a human swordsman and elf swordsmen in a box that elf will, 9/10 be able to beat the human, and that dichotomy is the same in my story, if the elf closes the human will get torn apart, the bayonet will be little help. but the rifle musket makes that almost, moot thanks to it's range. most solider in the civil war did not even carry bayonets and the same factors that make a good choice then are in in play now. remember: 620,000. men died in the Us civil war, those are the numbers the empire will be able to meet or exceeded


as for the skaven? the big problem with the skaven example is simply game balance and the fact the thing has a tendency to blow up. (that and I think the things a smooth bore)

while you look to the army books and to black library, i look to real world history for this story, what actually happened and extrapolated from there in case I get a odd situation (DE cold one riders charging a infantry square), and real world history says, Gatling were war winners.

Doctor Richard J gatling. wrote:It occurred to me that if I could invent a machine - a gun - which could by its rapidity of fire, enable one man to do as much battle duty as a hundred, that it would, to a large extent supersede the necessity of large armies, and consequently, exposure to battle and disease [would] be greatly diminished.
or how about,,
1st Lt. John H. Parker of Missouri, the 13th U.S. Infantry . wrote: "The guns were pushed right up in the hottest place there was in the battle-field...and put into action at the most critical point of the battle... [the guns] so successfully subdued the Spanish fire that from that time to the capture of the practically impregnable position was only eight-and-one-half minutes. The expenditure of ammunition durin this time, in which a continuous fire was kept up from three guns, was 6,000 rounds per gun..."
The Gatling guns supported by infantry are devastating weapons that can if properly used destroy any formations.

Bob of Beleriand wrote:I'd dare to bring up the point of the grandest force multiplier that the Empire themselves are lacking in, Magic. Skaven and Orcs and Goblins the most immediate threats to the Empire arguably both posses superior mastery of Magic, with Skaven (in the present I don't know the details of your story) having the superior technology, or in the very least comparable.
(winces) you got me there. Magic is the empire weakness. There not nearly as strong the elves, (I say there more powerful one on one then the orks and rats) how ever, something i plan to have a lot of in the elf war can come into play here.

Jagers.

The Empires scouts, skirmishers, and snipers.

Find the enemy mages, put a bullet in him, repeated until done. Elves find this out the hard way, (all there leaders are differently dressed, easy targets)

as for the Skaven? There a interesting thing that happens to them.

Remember there whole society is you kill it, it's yours survival of the strong, so what happens when they get AK equivalents? And every one gains the ability to Kill every one else with ease? The whole under empire collapses. That does not happen yet, but it will happen in the next 300 years.
Bob of Beleriand wrote:But please, don't misunderstand my intent here. It is my aim and goal to challenge you and your ideas so that you consider them and approach them from a new angle and ultimately improve them from the benefit of the added scrutiny.
again, no problem Bob, not like your being a jerk about it
Shannar, Sealord wrote:Even orcs and gobblins should present a bigger problem. They are already within the boarders of the empire (same with beastmen). As far as saying the empire went in and cleared them out, it can't really be done. Here are some examples of that sort of fight. Russia in Afganistan, the US in Vietnam, the US in Afganistan, the US in Iraq. Technology is a nice force multiplier, but it does not win wars.
the empires not exactly cleared them off. There still under siege you can say, but it's a seige they can't win. The empire just rakes the chaos spawn that tried with Gatling gun and musket fire. The empire is not concerned about them, I mean, it would take the largest bray herd ever seen to take hammer there way though a Imperial army and even think about bring the empire to it's knees, what are the odds of that....

(Khazrak that was you cue!)
Khazrak wrote: watched a convoy of humans march under him from his rocky perch. Snorting in the chilled air he watched the musketeers walk by with a pair of Horn Haters. (Gatling guns) The ancient beast man watched as the troops marched under him. His eye saw them leave but his hunter instinct told more, the Empire weakened.
yes, this chose to leave the empire under manned comes back to bite them and HARD.
Shannar, Sealord wrote:.
the range of a Springfield Model 1861 (rifle musket) had a max range of 1,000 yards (effective range of 400 yards but the empire understands the longer range better then the us Army did in the civl war and trains to us it better, so lets say a max effective range for the empire of about 600yards aimed fire only) that 600 yards that, that muskteer can reach out and touch you a tremendious distance.
And this matters when you fight in open fields, and that's it. Our M-4 are much better at long range then the AKs (which they often don't even bother to sight in :wink: ) But in an urban environment that wasn't worth nearly as much as most people think.
M-4, Ak, does not matter. the point is compared the other powerful range weapon of the time, (longbow crossbow, smooth bore) the rifled muskets (which it must be siad is mostly used over open ground) is better, and is much better in urban situation then a long bow.
Bob of Beleriand wrote:I'm aware, however the aforementioned conflicts all followed a similar template in resisting the technologically superior force by declining to give open battle. I'd hazard to say however that by our context of several thousand year old technology (bows, torsion artillery et al) and rifled firearms, that AKs and AR-15 platforms are infinitely more comparable.
i don't quite get this quote, does it relate to muskets VS long bow thing and how the empire can even fight, if not (and were talking about modern off toplic stuf) i won't comment. sorry, that came otu very rude some how.
Bob of Beleriand
The Clubslinger
Posts: 1867
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:44 am

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#109 Post by Bob of Beleriand »

dragonkingofthestars wrote:
Bob of Beleriand wrote:I'd dare to bring up the point of the grandest force multiplier that the Empire themselves are lacking in, Magic. Skaven and Orcs and Goblins the most immediate threats to the Empire arguably both posses superior mastery of Magic, with Skaven (in the present I don't know the details of your story) having the superior technology, or in the very least comparable.
(winces) you got me there. Magic is the empire weakness. There not nearly as strong the elves, (I say there more powerful one on one then the orks and rats) how ever, something i plan to have a lot of in the elf war can come into play here.
I'll reply in full later today but for the moment to address this point? In short, no. Orcs magic gets stronger the more of them there are. Skaven magic is immensely powerful but immensely risky. By contrast, especially against these two Imperial Magic would be somewhat subdued in power but eminently more consistent and safer.
Shannar, Sealord
Very Helpful Elf
Posts: 4031
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:10 am
Location: Patroling the Sea Lanes

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#110 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

first there supply train, you need to raid to interrupted the train of bullets and cartridges to the front line and they will very quickly get in trouble.
As long as you remember that part of it I'm quite satisfied.

As far as the effectiveness of the Gatling gun in the spanish american war, that had as much to do with poorly equipped and trained spanish soldiers (and even worse leadership) as our fancy technology.
dragonkingofthestars
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:27 pm

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#111 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Bob of Beleriand wrote:I'll reply in full later today but for the moment to address this point? In short, no. Orcs magic gets stronger the more of them there are. Skaven magic is immensely powerful but immensely risky. By contrast, especially against these two Imperial Magic would be somewhat subdued in power but eminently more consistent and safer.
been a few days so i'll respond now.

Humm, seems i was wrong. i was just going off my gut instict that said one and one, though you could argue that consistency and safty makes it more powerful, if not in the raw, blow the enemy up sense.

but Magics not the empires thing, acruate, long range rifle fire is there thing. why then can't fire fire (magic) with fire (magic) they fight it with lead (pow headshot). the elves quickly pick up a practice human armys have a long time ago. don't take snipers prisner.
Shannar, Sealord wrote: As long as you remember that part of it I'm quite satisfied.

As far as the effectiveness of the Gatling gun in the spanish american war, that had as much to do with poorly

equipped and trained spanish soldiers (and even worse leadership) as our fancy technology.


first the gattling: ya maybe teh spanards were the best, but i was makeing a point, the gattling is powerful, 6,000 bullet fired, PER gun. point that kind of fire power at a closely packed unit of spear or bow elves and that unit is going to go away.

as for the raiding? you must remember thats what the elves want and need to do, the empire will be fighting them tooth and nail the whole way, i have about as much clue who's going to win as you do, rememberi changed my mind about the tower three times.

also: i found somthing, new for the elves. The high elves may be able to create a counter to the empire iron clads with out radicly changing how they build ships.

Timberclads, like iron clads, are armored and are much heavyer then normal ships, being lighter armre, the diffrence is, there armor is made out of timber, not iron hence the name,.

the problems is, they make there ship out of liveing tress, so how do they make theres ships bigger, when they only have trees that get to X size? they could try and shink the amount of space there is onboard, so they have fewer eagle claw batterys aboard, but they have enough problems breaking though Empire Iron armor. so that leaves only close quaters boarding actions, and ramming as effective weapons.

humm, should i included timber clads to some degree? and if so how do i go about doing it?
User avatar
Elessehta of Yvresse
Well played Sir
Posts: 7811
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#112 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

About size, Dragonships are huge, the size of a small city. They can't be made any more though.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
Shannar, Sealord
Very Helpful Elf
Posts: 4031
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:10 am
Location: Patroling the Sea Lanes

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#113 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Well, neither could steam tanks, and they've seemed to progress past that now.
Shannar, Sealord
Very Helpful Elf
Posts: 4031
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:10 am
Location: Patroling the Sea Lanes

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#114 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

humm, should i included timber clads to some degree? and if so how do i go about doing it?
If you decide to, remember that some of the elves in averlorn would have similar abilities with trees to the wood elves. So if you wanted to it wouldn't be much of a leap at all to say they were able to "help" the trees grow with magic. If you go that route I'd guess ships built this way would be rare.
dragonkingofthestars
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:27 pm

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#115 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:About size, Dragonships are huge, the size of a small city. They can't be made any more though.
ya i know th,,,,,

say that again, about the size of dragon ship? Galleons have a crew of around 200- 400, thouhg i would call that a small town, are dragonship bigger?

to to finish my though, yes i know dragonship can't be made any more hence my problem, they can only make ships as big as Hawkships, so how to get the most armor onto a frame you can't make bigger.
Shannar, Sealord wrote:Well, neither could steam tanks, and they've seemed to progress past that now.
not sure i get the context of your quto,, as for steam tanks?

as they crurrently exist, there chunks of crap. that much weight on four wheels? they would sink into the ground easily, meaning you can only use them on clear, dry days across open solid ground. forget about assults on beaches, swamps, froests, mud, dirt, sand, trenches, ditches and rough ground!

For the cost of one your better of raising a regiment of infantry and a battery of gattlings to suport them.,,,, at least until the empire A: comes up with a better layout for there wheeled tank, or B:comes up with treads. (and considering we had steam tracktors around 1900, which the empires techs close to should only be a matter of time) still, don't expect them to show up in ulthan, ha, bit hard to stick them on a boat and transport them, (along with all the supplys and personal to keep them working)
Shannar, Sealord wrote:
humm, should i included timber clads to some degree? and if so how do i go about doing it?
If you decide to, remember that some of the elves in averlorn would have similar abilities with trees to the wood elves. So if you wanted to it wouldn't be much of a leap at all to say they were able to "help" the trees grow with magic. If you go that route I'd guess ships built this way would be rare.
I assumed they did that already, but that there was some, limit to there power over the trees, or tehy would be able to make more dragon ships, or at least ships as big as dragon ships, even if they are not proper dragons.
User avatar
Elessehta of Yvresse
Well played Sir
Posts: 7811
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#116 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Somewhere on here is a thread where the size of the different ships were discussed, from memory, Hawkships had between 200-400 personal, Eagleships 800-1000, and Dragonships up to 2000.
As to making ships that big again, I doubt it. The Magical trees that they were made out of were as strong as steel, but all destroyed by the Druchii in the civil war. Not sure about the amount of Skysilver left to make the Dragonblades either. Trying to make a lesser tree get that big wouldn't be feasible.
I can imagine Hawkships and Eagleships clad in Ilithmar, it's light weight would make it great for armour for ships.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
[quote="Narrin’Tim"]These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil![/quote]
Bob of Beleriand
The Clubslinger
Posts: 1867
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:44 am

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#117 Post by Bob of Beleriand »

dragonkingofthestars wrote:
Bob of Beleriand wrote:I I mean no offense or disrespect, however a narrative is boring without tension, drama or uncertainty. With the Empire seemingly, from what little of your plot you've revealed of course, they seem to be gaining every advantage to the point that they're a solitary power above and beyond everyone else.
nope i have no problem with this but please allow me to counter you claims. first off, the empire has these advantages in a straight fight. if you go at them head on, your going to get torn apart. that is a fact. but there small, yet hyper dangerous army has some major flaws. first there supply train, you need to raid to interrupted the train of bullets and cartridges to the front line and they will very quickly get in trouble.

the Empire big, 700lb gorilla in the room weakness is this massive supply train. unlike a standard fantasy war story with climatic battles, the elves will be playing Guerrilla tactics (eventually, there going to need to get there rear handed to them a few times) trying to isolate formations, starve them of supply’s, then finish them off. the main narrative for Ulthan can be split into, (counts on fingers) at least five sub story’s that weave together to tell the tail of Ulthan, at the moment, more may be added or taken away.
Herein lays the problem with the campaign though. Offensively Ulthuan/Elves are entirely/completely outmatched, any attempt to strike any sort of meaningful counter-offensive/campaign is sisyphusian levels of futility, however Ulthuan itself is extraordinarily difficult to invade if you further factor supply issues and I don't see how any campaign could succeed. To illustrate:

Image

Anything entering the red is lost. Green is what I'd assume to be your likely naval route.

A few things to consider:

We can glean information about the nature and abilities of most of the naval power of the world based on the old Man-o-war game. Dragonships were very tough, but offensively weak. This was offset by their ramming ability. Dragonships if they manage to ram you have prow mounted blades that are exceptional enchanted rams that will slice through even your metal hulls with ease.

Dwarfs already possess the naval technology you're talking to, in a sense. They may lack the cannons of that magnitude but the hull and ship design exists - the Dwarven Ironclads and Dreadnaughts. [1]

And again one must consider Mages and Elven flyers (Griffons, Dragons Great Eagles).

In my mind the most realistic outcome for your story is that the Empire is able to end the Elven mastery of the sea but are unable to stage or inflict any meaningful losses upon Ulthuan herself. Effectively bottling the Elves up inside their lands.
remember: 620,000. men died in the Us civil war, those are the numbers the empire will be able to meet or exceeded
I disagree here - the Empire lacks the landmass, fertile land and isolation of the Americas to produce that sort of population. Your population estimates have perhaps been over-generous in this regard. As an admittedly vague example, the Germany is loosely based on the HRE - the timeline equivalent being the German confederation. Census figures put their population at approximately 34 million [2] with the US being at approximately 31 million pre-civil war. [3]

These numbers will be considerably higher than the numbers available for the Empire even under best conditions.

Bob of Beleriand wrote: while you look to the army books and to black library, i look to real world history for this story, what actually happened and extrapolated from there in case I get a odd situation (DE cold one riders charging a infantry square), and real world history says, Gatling were war winners.
I'm actually trying to balance both historical and setting applicable sources. :)
Doctor Richard J gatling. wrote:It occurred to me that if I could invent a machine - a gun - which could by its rapidity of fire, enable one man to do as much battle duty as a hundred, that it would, to a large extent supersede the necessity of large armies, and consequently, exposure to battle and disease [would] be greatly diminished.
or how about,,
1st Lt. John H. Parker of Missouri, the 13th U.S. Infantry . wrote: "The guns were pushed right up in the hottest place there was in the battle-field...and put into action at the most critical point of the battle... [the guns] so successfully subdued the Spanish fire that from that time to the capture of the practically impregnable position was only eight-and-one-half minutes. The expenditure of ammunition durin this time, in which a continuous fire was kept up from three guns, was 6,000 rounds per gun..."
The Gatling guns supported by infantry are devastating weapons that can if properly used destroy any formations.
Its worth noting that Bolt Throwers would have a greater range than Gatling Guns.

.


[1] http://www.stephane.info/show.php?code= ... 66c6ba1406
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Germany *
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_United_States_Census *

*Yes, yes I know. I'm not writing an academic paper here so Wikipedia is sufficient for our purposes here.
dragonkingofthestars
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:27 pm

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#118 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Bob of Beleriand wrote:Herein lays the problem with the campaign though. Offensively Ulthuan/Elves are entirely/completely outmatched, any attempt to strike any sort of meaningful counter-offensive/campaign is sisyphusian levels of futility, however Ulthuan itself is extraordinarily difficult to invade if you further factor supply issues and I don't see how any campaign could succeed. To illustrate:

Image

Anything entering the red is lost. Green is what I'd assume to be your likely naval route.
ya thats the route. it was based first on my very flawed view that Ulthan sat farther north and was actually north of the empire. the presents of the mist means this route still works.

Bob of Beleriand wrote:A few things to consider:

We can glean information about the nature and abilities of most of the naval power of the world based on the old Man-o-war game. Dragonships were very tough, but offensively weak. This was offset by their ramming ability. Dragonships if they manage to ram you have prow mounted blades that are exceptional enchanted rams that will slice through even your metal hulls with ease.

Dwarfs already possess the naval technology you're talking to, in a sense. They may lack the cannons of that magnitude but the hull and ship design exists - the Dwarven Ironclads and Dreadnaughts. [1].
not quite.

Dwarf iron clades are Montiers, (a single turreted cannon) dwarf Ironcalds have a boradside and a pair of turrets, but i storngly suspect the cannons are a small poundage then the design would suggest, don't ask me why i think that, i could not give you answer better then my gizzard told me. A empire Ironclad is larger, more slab sided and has more cannons, and high exploisve shot to go with them.

now a Dwarf deadnought on the other hand: looking at it we have four turreted cannons, and a broad side. and though i can see it inflicting tremendious damage, the lay out has some major flaws, manly you can't focus your full power of all your cannons on any one target like say the, Colossus class or a Iowa- class battleship. and compare this to the Lord Nelson class drednought, (HMS Agamemnon)

Image

(Still can't do it!)

THe lord nelson class has MUCH more fire power, even if we forget it's useing exploisve shot and smokless powder


as for teh dragonship: ya that does happen a few times when they get close enough,,,,, IF.

Bob of Beleriand wrote:[And again one must consider Mages and Elven flyers (Griffons, Dragons Great Eagles).

In my mind the most realistic outcome for your story is that the Empire is able to end the Elven mastery of the sea but are unable to stage or inflict any meaningful losses upon Ulthuan herself. Effectively bottling the Elves up inside their lands..
That is the first step, but once you bottle them up, and you basicly have control of the seas, well, you may as well land you army! if you pretty much uncontested. (espcaily since the DE will be apply pressure at the same time, so the foolish humans can do as much damage as they can, and then when thre both weak they will strick)

flyers intresting issue though, how common on are they? the big issue i see with flyers is if there light flyers (eagles/Griffions) then a gatting gun that are found on every ship in the empire feleet should run them off with ease. Dragons though, bit harder. the only answer that comes to mind is the Puckle gun (sort of a 18 centery revovler cannon, 37mm)

magic though,, is much, much harder. on land the empire snipers can deal with them. on sea though that is not option, the only way i can see a far less magical empire fighting that off, is relying on the tremendious range of there rifled cannons to destroy the elf fleet before the mages can get close. humm, think i can get away with ONE naval battle that has no magic?

HUman air power has not been considered at this state, but war ballons come to mind first thing, anything else i don't see them useing, not enough tech for Dwarf copters,,,

O HO HO! (slams fist into hand) ZEPPELINS! the first strategic bombers! like to see the high elfs faces when a 200 meter long zeppelin is flying over there citys!

you know, the longer this goes on, the more the empire ends up less 19th ceentery and more 20th steam punk, i mean, magic, zeppelins, flint locks, DampfPanzer (steam tanks)

Bob of Beleriand wrote:
dragonkingofthestars wrote: remember: 620,000. men died in the Us civil war, those are the numbers the empire will be able to meet or exceeded
I disagree here - the Empire lacks the landmass, fertile land and isolation of the Americas to produce that sort of population. Your population estimates have perhaps been over-generous in this regard. As an admittedly vague example, the Germany is loosely based on the HRE - the timeline equivalent being the German confederation. Census figures put their population at approximately 34 million [2] with the US being at approximately 31 million pre-civil war. [3]

These numbers will be considerably higher than the numbers available for the Empire even under best conditions.
I was talking about out putting that kind of fire power, inflicting that many losses not takeing them.

but on the subject of population you have to remember that due to the more powerful army, fewer people are being eaten by beastman then ever before, and with the miltary tech came improved farming tech and new poltical ideas just like our world. and! the new army means that more forest land can be lit on fire (slash and burn) then the beastmen killed to make more farm land, the empires on the cusp of the Green revolution


Bob of Beleriand wrote: I'm actually trying to balance both historical and setting applicable sources. :)
sorry, that was a bit arogent of me.
Bob of Beleriand wrote: Its worth noting that Bolt Throwers would have a greater range than Gatling Guns.
[/quote]

Spanish artillery opened on the pair of guns at a range or 2,000 yards. The Gatlings responded, silencing the battery.
Forgive my sillness, but,,

Whats that elves? your have to whine a little louder! we can't here you from here!

I think it's safe to say Gattlings have enough range to deal with bolt thowers, plus: the gattings lighter and likely easyer to move, (bolthowers don't have wheels on them).

that said, Gattlings jam, have huge ammunition demands, and the thower can likely deal with the gun if it can get a shot off, (survieing the counter battery fire, though is a diffrent matter.)
Bob of Beleriand
The Clubslinger
Posts: 1867
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:44 am

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#119 Post by Bob of Beleriand »

dragonkingofthestars wrote:
Bob of Beleriand wrote:A few things to consider:

We can glean information about the nature and abilities of most of the naval power of the world based on the old Man-o-war game. Dragonships were very tough, but offensively weak. This was offset by their ramming ability. Dragonships if they manage to ram you have prow mounted blades that are exceptional enchanted rams that will slice through even your metal hulls with ease.

Dwarfs already possess the naval technology you're talking to, in a sense. They may lack the cannons of that magnitude but the hull and ship design exists - the Dwarven Ironclads and Dreadnaughts. [1].
not quite.

Dwarf iron clades are Montiers, (a single turreted cannon) dwarf Ironcalds have a boradside and a pair of turrets, but i storngly suspect the cannons are a small poundage then the design would suggest, don't ask me why i think that, i could not give you answer better then my gizzard told me. A empire Ironclad is larger, more slab sided and has more cannons, and high exploisve shot to go with them.

now a Dwarf deadnought on the other hand: looking at it we have four turreted cannons, and a broad side. and though i can see it inflicting tremendious damage, the lay out has some major flaws, manly you can't focus your full power of all your cannons on any one target like say the, Colossus class or a Iowa- class battleship. and compare this to the Lord Nelson class drednought, (HMS Agamemnon)

Image

(Still can't do it!)

THe lord nelson class has MUCH more fire power, even if we forget it's useing exploisve shot and smokless powder


as for teh dragonship: ya that does happen a few times when they get close enough,,,,, IF.
Fixed the image for you.

I merely cited the Dwarven ships as an example that we can use to create a loose parallel to draw information from in-setting. But you'll note I did in fact conceed that the weaponry isn't comparable but the hull likely is. Bolt Throwers are wholly ineffective, their utility would be reduced to something akin to a swivel gun.

Although I confess looking at some of the technology you're citing now, I think your imagination might be over-reaching your plot as it stands. The Empire gaining several centuries of progress in a fraction of the time in the worst of circumstances is a little odd.
Bob of Beleriand wrote:[And again one must consider Mages and Elven flyers (Griffons, Dragons Great Eagles).

In my mind the most realistic outcome for your story is that the Empire is able to end the Elven mastery of the sea but are unable to stage or inflict any meaningful losses upon Ulthuan herself. Effectively bottling the Elves up inside their lands..
That is the first step, but once you bottle them up, and you basicly have control of the seas, well, you may as well land you army! if you pretty much uncontested. (espcaily since the DE will be apply pressure at the same time, so the foolish humans can do as much damage as they can, and then when thre both weak they will strick)

flyers intresting issue though, how common on are they? the big issue i see with flyers is if there light flyers (eagles/Griffions) then a gatting gun that are found on every ship in the empire feleet should run them off with ease. Dragons though, bit harder. the only answer that comes to mind is the Puckle gun (sort of a 18 centery revovler cannon, 37mm)

magic though,, is much, much harder. on land the empire snipers can deal with them. on sea though that is not option, the only way i can see a far less magical empire fighting that off, is relying on the tremendious range of there rifled cannons to destroy the elf fleet before the mages can get close. humm, think i can get away with ONE naval battle that has no magic?

HUman air power has not been considered at this state, but war ballons come to mind first thing, anything else i don't see them useing, not enough tech for Dwarf copters,,,

O HO HO! (slams fist into hand) ZEPPELINS! the first strategic bombers! like to see the high elfs faces when a 200 meter long zeppelin is flying over there citys!

you know, the longer this goes on, the more the empire ends up less 19th ceentery and more 20th steam punk, i mean, magic, zeppelins, flint locks, DampfPanzer (steam tanks)
Image

Oh, the humanity!

But you did illustrate something that I've been considering for much of this thread. It feels like you'd be infinitely better served progressiing the entire timeline and narrative to a Steampunk setting, it seems like it'd be a better fit for the type of story you're looking to tell.
Bob of Beleriand wrote:
dragonkingofthestars wrote: remember: 620,000. men died in the Us civil war, those are the numbers the empire will be able to meet or exceeded
I disagree here - the Empire lacks the landmass, fertile land and isolation of the Americas to produce that sort of population. Your population estimates have perhaps been over-generous in this regard. As an admittedly vague example, the Germany is loosely based on the HRE - the timeline equivalent being the German confederation. Census figures put their population at approximately 34 million [2] with the US being at approximately 31 million pre-civil war. [3]

These numbers will be considerably higher than the numbers available for the Empire even under best conditions.
I was talking about out putting that kind of fire power, inflicting that many losses not takeing them.

but on the subject of population you have to remember that due to the more powerful army, fewer people are being eaten by beastman then ever before, and with the miltary tech came improved farming tech and new poltical ideas just like our world. and! the new army means that more forest land can be lit on fire (slash and burn) then the beastmen killed to make more farm land, the empires on the cusp of the Green revolution

I'm not forgetting, by drawing a historical comparison with the two nations, they too had the agricultural advancements too. They however didn't exist in an era of constant total warfare reaching back several hundred years. The population as a whole cannot logically be close to the real-world examples. But the Green Revolution that you cited cannot reasonably occur for at least another century or two of progress. The Green Revolution was only possible due to the cultivation of Borlaug's wheat strains, the Empire even with your most generous assessments aren't even approaching that.
Bob of Beleriand wrote: Its worth noting that Bolt Throwers would have a greater range than Gatling Guns.
Spanish artillery opened on the pair of guns at a range or 2,000 yards. The Gatlings responded, silencing the battery.
Forgive my sillness, but,,

Whats that elves? your have to whine a little louder! we can't here you from here!

I think it's safe to say Gattlings have enough range to deal with bolt thowers, plus: the gattings lighter and likely easyer to move, (bolthowers don't have wheels on them).

that said, Gattlings jam, have huge ammunition demands, and the thower can likely deal with the gun if it can get a shot off, (survieing the counter battery fire, though is a diffrent matter.)
Hrm, what I read suggested that the range of the Gatling was no better than that of a Rifle e.g. 600 yards. I have a very hard time believing that Gatling guns had a range equivalent to that of Artillery pieces, can you provide a source? A cursory search hasn't yielded anything regarding that particular event.
Shannar, Sealord
Very Helpful Elf
Posts: 4031
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:10 am
Location: Patroling the Sea Lanes

Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#120 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Hrm, what I read suggested that the range of the Gatling was no better than that of a Rifle e.g. 600 yards. I have a very hard time believing that Gatling guns had a range equivalent to that of Artillery pieces, can you provide a source? A cursory search hasn't yielded anything regarding that particular event.
Since it uses essentially the same cartage as the period rifles it would be hard to imagine the effective range being that much farther.
Post Reply