Glittering tower, information request.

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dragonkingofthestars
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#121 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Bob of Beleriand wrote: I merely cited the Dwarven ships as an example that we can use to create a loose parallel to draw information from in-setting. But you'll note I did in fact conceed that the weaponry isn't comparable but the hull likely is. Bolt Throwers are wholly ineffective, their utility would be reduced to something akin to a swivel gun.

Although I confess looking at some of the technology you're citing now, I think your imagination might be over-reaching your plot as it stands. The Empire gaining several centuries of progress in a fraction of the time in the worst of circumstances is a little odd.
I was useing that dreadnought as a example, i could not find the actual HMS dreadnought as a example, and to be fair, the dwarfs started it calling there ship as a dreadnought.

and far more of the plot and technology of this story is fuzzy then i am fully willing to amit, and when you put it that way, i doubt were see actual dreadnoughts in this story. maybe ships called, dreadnought, but no ships with that perticular gun lay out.

but i just have a thought: if we have decided well built Ironclads are bolt thrower proof, how (when you were playing Man War) manged to beat the dwarfs as a high elf player?
Bob of Beleriand wrote:Image

Oh, the humanity!
Image

oh the huge manatee!

Ya, the more I think of it too steam punk seems better, but i think it will be a more subtle steam punk, and the more i think about zepplines, all the fuel for those steam engines it would take make it impossable for steam Zepplines, now Dwarf Zepplines on the other hand! they can even use Helium for there zepplines, (they had to have found some with all there time under ground.)


OK, i'll be fair , i have only a limited idea waht hte green revoultion was, and i was just blow smoke out my rear. seems my ignorence shines pretty bright. sorry.

Bob of Beleriand wrote:Hrm, what I read suggested that the range of the Gatling was no better than that of a Rifle e.g. 600 yards. I have a very hard time believing that Gatling guns had a range equivalnt to that of Artillery pieces, can you provide a source? A cursory search hasn't yielded anything regarding that particular event.
It was from teh battle of Battle of San Juan Hill if that helps. the document i used is
here,,http://www.spanamwar.com/Gatlinggundetachment.htm about 3/4 of teh way down.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#122 Post by Bob of Beleriand »

dragonkingofthestars wrote:
Bob of Beleriand wrote:Image

Oh, the humanity!
Image

oh the huge manatee!
You. I like you. :mrgreen:

dragonkingofthestars wrote:
Bob of Beleriand wrote:Hrm, what I read suggested that the range of the Gatling was no better than that of a Rifle e.g. 600 yards. I have a very hard time believing that Gatling guns had a range equivalnt to that of Artillery pieces, can you provide a source? A cursory search hasn't yielded anything regarding that particular event.
It was from teh battle of Battle of San Juan Hill if that helps. the document i used is
here,,http://www.spanamwar.com/Gatlinggundetachment.htm about 3/4 of teh way down.
That website contradicts itself in the account there however. It points to a range of 1000 yards which is still well in excess of other sources I've read.
dragonkingofthestars wrote:
Bob of Beleriand wrote: I merely cited the Dwarven ships as an example that we can use to create a loose parallel to draw information from in-setting. But you'll note I did in fact conceed that the weaponry isn't comparable but the hull likely is. Bolt Throwers are wholly ineffective, their utility would be reduced to something akin to a swivel gun.

Although I confess looking at some of the technology you're citing now, I think your imagination might be over-reaching your plot as it stands. The Empire gaining several centuries of progress in a fraction of the time in the worst of circumstances is a little odd.
I was useing that dreadnought as a example, i could not find the actual HMS dreadnought as a example, and to be fair, the dwarfs started it calling there ship as a dreadnought.

and far more of the plot and technology of this story is fuzzy then i am fully willing to amit, and when you put it that way, i doubt were see actual dreadnoughts in this story. maybe ships called, dreadnought, but no ships with that perticular gun lay out.

but i just have a thought: if we have decided well built Ironclads are bolt thrower proof, how (when you were playing Man War) manged to beat the dwarfs as a high elf player?
I haven't played it, I just used that as a source to draw a comparison with. But from what I understand High Elven players relied on their vastly superior movement to win, offensively the ram on the Dragonship was very effective.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#123 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Bob of Beleriand wrote: That website contradicts itself in the account there however. It points to a range of 1000 yards which is still well in excess of other sources I've read.
well, how about wiki? and by this article really support my argument that Gattling are battle feild mosnters. monsters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... rting_fire
Returning to the two Gatlings on San Juan Hill, Lt. Parker had the guns relocated near the road to avoid counterbattery fire.[20][32] Despite this precaution, the guns again came under shellfire from a heavy Spanish 6.3 in (160 mm) gun.[20][32] Parker located the enemy gun and trained the two Gatlings using a powerful set of field glasses. The two Gatlings then opened fire, silencing the Spanish 6.3 in (160 mm) gun at a range of roughly 2,000 yd (1,800 m).[20][32]
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#124 Post by Bob of Beleriand »

Well, I can't do much beyond scratching my head then.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#125 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

but i just have a thought: if we have decided well built Ironclads are bolt thrower proof, how (when you were playing Man War) manged to beat the dwarfs as a high elf player?
boarding, raming, magicing.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#126 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Bob of Beleriand wrote:Well, I can't do much beyond scratching my head then.
well maby they fired so many rounds they were bound to hit somthing and they killed the gun crew that way, it was only ONE cannon and two gattlings.

a new questoin chain: this one about the nature of the Isles.

I'll let one of my characters do the speaking here.
Cheif Navigator Curien wrote: Well, that plan is screwed, if these island shift. But how much does each one move? This one clearly wandered a fair bit, but how about others? Does it vary by season? Can it be predicted? Manpulated?"
That is in essence, my questiosn as wel. Also how do the high elves manged to sail the area? by magic? and if so, how do non magical elves get around? they have magic maps? or somthing?
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#127 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

All navy ships have mages on them, and most traders are escorted by the navy. Not everyone has to travel though the shifting Isles, really just Yvresse, and Cothique, they have been doing it for aeons.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34506][i]Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.[/i][/url]
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#128 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:All navy ships have mages on them, and most traders are escorted by the navy. Not everyone has to travel though the shifting Isles, really just Yvresse, and Cothique, they have been doing it for aeons.

All ships have a mage? can i have a source? cuzz that sound very unlikely, i doubt even the elves are that magicaly powerful, if only becuase they have a whole lot of ships.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#129 Post by Aicanor »

We are back to Defenders of Ulthuan for reference. They do have mages on warships, of course they do, not necessarily archmages, but there always are mages to navigate through dangers and help the weather. And fight. You need to understand there are very few really "non-magical" elves, if any. They all can sense the winds of magic and most can use them in some way. Not all can send a firebolt after you, but there are many more such mages amongst Elves than amongst Men.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#130 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Aicanor wrote:We are back to Defenders of Ulthuan for reference. They do have mages on warships, of course they do, not necessarily archmages, but there always are mages to navigate through dangers and help the weather. And fight. You need to understand there are very few really "non-magical" elves, if any. They all can sense the winds of magic and most can use them in some way. Not all can send a firebolt after you, but there are many more such mages amongst Elves than amongst Men.
so, there have two types of mages, first there are the Really dangerious ones, the arch mages who can hurl fire balls at you. then you have normal mages who though they may not be able to use magic in a really powerful ways are able to control it to some degree,,, what is that degree? can they just navigate? enchante or somthing?

and this this brings up a question i asked earlyer,

can I get away with ONE naval battle that has no magic in it? other wise i'll have to rewrite one chapter
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#131 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

If it involves High Elves, and If it's bigger then just a couple ships, no. A mage for even a smallish ship would be able to navigate, and manipulate the weather- perhaps even as a weapon. On any large ship you'll have a rather powerful mage.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#132 Post by Aicanor »

Elves are magical. Their craftsmen weave magic into their creations (as shipwrights do use magic to create their ships). This doesn't have to concern you for the story, because these are slow magicks. Then there are small things, like making arrows flaming (this is attested in Shadow King), but mages who navigate the ships are powerful (think level 1-2 in game terms for smaller ships and archmages for great ones). Of course magic is fickle, and the winds of magic can ebb... Yet it would be very special circumstance to have no magic at all.
There is one more thing that I think should be dealt with. Lots of servants of Chaos are recruited from the people of the Empire. What technology they have will surely be used (and warped) by Chaos. The advantage will not hold forever. So this great scheme you have is heading for a true disaster. At least this is how I see it. I do not want to say that this invasion would not happen (after all the prospect of raising such situations as are in Iraq or Afghanistan didn't prevent the wars from happening). It is just that you cannot hold Chaos away with a few guns, however powerful. It can strike wherever it wants, much like modern terrorists, and there is nothing the all powerful weapons can do, as Shannar pointed out. But Chaos certainly can bid their time and then strike very very hard when the opposing side is at its weakest.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#133 Post by Bob of Beleriand »

dragonkingofthestars wrote:
can I get away with ONE naval battle that has no magic in it? other wise i'll have to rewrite one chapter

Naval or Civilian?
dragonkingofthestars wrote: so, there have two types of mages, first there are the Really dangerious ones, the arch mages who can hurl fire balls at you. then you have normal mages who though they may not be able to use magic in a really powerful ways are able to control it to some degree,,, what is that degree? can they just navigate? enchante or somthing?
What he means to say is, most Elves are naturally attuned to the ebbs and flows of the Winds of Magic in some form or another, this won't manifest itself in any sort of meaningful manipulation in most cases. True Mages and Archmages are the ones that are able to manipulate it.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#134 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Aicanor wrote:Elves are magical. Their craftsmen weave magic into their creations (as shipwrights do use magic to create their ships). This doesn't have to concern you for the story, because these are slow magicks. Then there are small things, like making arrows flaming (this is attested in Shadow King), but mages who navigate the ships are powerful (think level 1-2 in game terms for smaller ships and archmages for great ones). Of course magic is fickle, and the winds of magic can ebb... Yet it would be very special circumstance to have no magic at all.
There is one more thing that I think should be dealt with. Lots of servants of Chaos are recruited from the people of the Empire. What technology they have will surely be used (and warped) by Chaos. The advantage will not hold forever. So this great scheme you have is heading for a true disaster. At least this is how I see it. I do not want to say that this invasion would not happen (after all the prospect of raising such situations as are in Iraq or Afghanistan didn't prevent the wars from happening). It is just that you cannot hold Chaos away with a few guns, however powerful. It can strike wherever it wants, much like modern terrorists, and there is nothing the all powerful weapons can do, as Shannar pointed out. But Chaos certainly can bid their time and then strike very very hard when the opposing side is at its weakest.
when we talk about choas, we need to think less of a rampageing beastman hoard, which quite frankly are just gattling fodder, and we need to think more about cultests, fighting like modern terrosist, or gurrllia fighters, or the Chaos Dwarfs, who with fall of the high elf fortress of Dawn that was blockadeing them, will be in assedence and they, and there chaos infused machinary are the next big Threat. and you can bet, they will bring to life some hellish devices that make the can give the Empire, (or even the rough idea of post war Ulthan) a run for there money, and forget about the dwarfs, wood elves, tomb kings, and skaven being a threat. (the first three because i don't see them adopting a more modern tactis, and the skaven bacasue once Skyria gets makes assult rifles and suddenly slaves can kill gray seers, the whoel under empire imploads. so they will be a bit busy killing each other)

how ever, just because the empire gets soem fancy guns, that does not change the rate of choas cultest accure, it just means a small group can do more damage, with there smaller numbers so i don't see them suddenly overthrowing the empire, but tehy can be a facotr for the empire with drawing from its oversees wars.

right then, as for teh magic, I'll re work the chapter a bit, i don't see me useing any really big spells (like fire balls) as taht would mean i would have to really redo it. would that work?


reply to Bob: meant one naval battle and thanks for you imput on elvfs and magic.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#135 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

right then, as for teh magic, I'll re work the chapter a bit, i don't see me useing any really big spells (like fire balls) as taht would mean i would have to really redo it. would that work?
Depends on the size of the battle. If it's of significant size (more then a couple ships) and I read a story like that I'd be pretty annoyed unless you somehow explain why they held back.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#136 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:
right then, as for teh magic, I'll re work the chapter a bit, i don't see me useing any really big spells (like fire balls) as taht would mean i would have to really redo it. would that work?
Depends on the size of the battle. If it's of significant size (more then a couple ships) and I read a story like that I'd be pretty annoyed unless you somehow explain why they held back.
screw being lazy. when i get the chapter before the one i'm talking about from my beta i'll throw some magic in.
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#137 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

There are ways of approaching it. All the HE mages could perhaps be exhausted after a lengthy battle with some dark elves (this would probably require some writing of it's own- as to it being more or less then reworking your chapter, and if it fits your story I don't know (it seems it would from the hints though).
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#138 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:There are ways of approaching it. All the HE mages could perhaps be exhausted after a lengthy battle with some dark elves (this would probably require some writing of it's own- as to it being more or less then reworking your chapter, and if it fits your story I don't know (it seems it would from the hints though).
humm, i twould fit the concept i have of the DE secretly helping the humans, but no that's a bit of a stretch, I'll add some magic to the chapter. I won't take a short cut,,, at least when the cut is a bit of a stretch to belive.
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#139 Post by Aicanor »

I also think it will be better to work some magic in. While magic winds can be stronger or weaker, Elven mages are adept at working them.
With Chaos, there are not only Orcs, Beasts and cultists - don't forget Warriors and northern tribes. They may not use lot of machinery (or perhaps will by the time of your story), but shooting may not be all that effective against them as Empire would like to think.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#140 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Aicanor wrote:I also think it will be better to work some magic in. While magic winds can be stronger or weaker, Elven mages are adept at working them.
With Chaos, there are not only Orcs, Beasts and cultists - don't forget Warriors and northern tribes. They may not use lot of machinery (or perhaps will by the time of your story), but shooting may not be all that effective against them as Empire would like to think.
lets take that though and run with it.

there are 3,000 beast men over there, and a single Heavy Infantry regiment of empire troops over there, (1,000 line infantry devided into ten 100 man Company each with a attached gattling gun, crew of four total of ten gattlings,).

Keeping in mind, The sheer amount of fire power that even one gattling gun can out put, along with the effectiness of the line infantry. what can the beast man do to get in close, to grab them by the perberbal belt buckle, so they can hack and wack the humans down.
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#141 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

who say's they have to come at them? If the empire troops want to sit, just go take out a village somewhere else. Sooner or later you force them to move, then you hit them while they do.
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Re: Glittering tower, information request.

#142 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:who say's they have to come at them? If the empire troops want to sit, just go take out a village somewhere else. Sooner or later you force them to move, then you hit them while they do.
ya, but at the end of the day, you still have to fight them, and when it comes to it, how do you do it?

clearly your best option as a beastman is raid, hit and run, avoid the big fight, but i doubt highly the beastman have the displine to avoid the empire for long. there very nature, would mean that such a force tramping though there woods would incite them to battle, to fall upon the humans, and to crash upon there gunline.

so in a open battle what can the beast man do?

in my mind there are very few options. first is send a thick screen of ungors, (that is the hornless ones right?) as bullet catchers as you real fights work up close, but i think they be cut down to fast. though the prospect of running out of ammo is a really factor.

second would be to force the empire to fight in terran where the gattling will have problems getting to (being on big wheeled carrages and all), say mud or thick forests. of corse if you forsts too think the empires likely to just burn you out.

Lastly: use the big guys, mintors and the link big ones who take a lot of bullets to kill. then again, the roll of big critter killing falls to puckle guns, even they can't ignore a 37mm bullet (fun fact in the real world puckle guns were design to fire two guns thing.

so the only non easily countered thing they have left is magic, and short of teh destory the enemy before they can kill us, i don't see how it can help.
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#143 Post by Aicanor »

I was thinking more of Chaos Warriors with their dark blessings.
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#144 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Aicanor wrote:I was thinking more of Chaos Warriors with their dark blessings.
the beast man was a example, they were suppose to be a stand in for chaos in genearl, (not counting the choas dwarfs who are quite frankly able to stand as a indepndent threat, and massive one at that, imgain a demonicly possed M1-garand, howitzers or Shermans and you get a small messure of they can do. the Choas dwarfs are in assedent)

maybe it my limited knowlege or somthing, but i don't see how any blessing your common foot trooper is likley to have can stop a 900 ft/s bullet. the leaders may have enough dark power to be able to stand that, but even thats a bit of a streat if we are talking a whole brigade of 100 guys blasting at 600+ feet away, with gattling or puckle support.

I, and this is likely a personal failing, i see no way in hell a choas force can even go ten to one against the empire, unless were talking choas dwarfs, then the empire screwed, (Demon AK's!) unless they really out mass the dwarfs.
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#145 Post by Bob of Beleriand »

Image

Puny mortal.
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#146 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Bob of Beleriand wrote:Image

Puny mortal.
Image

That is a warhammer 40K deamon! not a warhammer fatnasy deamon!

And I am sure the not even hell forges of the Choas dwarfs could makes such a monstrosity! that is a machine deamon, the choas dwarfs make Deamon machines, there is a diffrence.

your arugment, is invalid.
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#147 Post by Bob of Beleriand »

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#148 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Bob of Beleriand wrote:It isn't though.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... od1630127a
ok, first, i jumped the gun a bit, sorry.

second: what the unholy heck is that thing doing in warhammer fantasy?

all this is a bit off topic as to what can a group of choas soliders do to stop from being blown apart by a brigade of Empire troops supported by gattlings?
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#149 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

use terrain to their advantage, attack from 2 directions at once, fight somewhere else instead.
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#150 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:use terrain to their advantage, attack from 2 directions at once, fight somewhere else instead.
the problem is the Empire line infantry likes to fight on open ground to make best use of there fire power, and so they can have manuvering room. The beastmen on the other hand like thick forests as that not only there home they can easily move over the rougher ground, and there formations are so loose and disorgnized taht the lack of movment does not hinder them.

so the empire goal is to lure the beasts out of the forests, and the beast man, are as you say try to use terrain to there advantage there are TWO key problems.

first: the empire is defending. the beastmen come to them to try and sack there towns, giveing the humans the chance to dig and prepare to repel the beastmen. the Humans do seek the beastys out yes, but that was not the basic tatical situation i was asking after. the question it self was more of a thought exprement for me so i can see what the beasty CAN do in a open battle, if it was even possible, for them to get close to the enemy. becuase we had talk of magic and dark gifts help the beasts out i was looking for a example of that. so i could factor it into my story for when the beastman do rise.

Obviously if they use ambush tatics (more on that in a second) the humans siuation becomes much, much harder to maintain. but the question was more for my benfit then any real question of the beast mans tactics.

secondly: on the beast man tatcis, i thought only the really good beast lord were able to use any degree of tactics other then, Lerory jenkins style charge at them. am i wrong?
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