Ulthuan Culture - Class

Here you can discuss High Elf culture in all its aspects, be it their society, language, arts or philosophies. The results of your discussions will eventually be used to enlarge the amount of general information about the High elves on this site.

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IvoryTowerElf
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Ulthuan Culture - Class

#1 Post by IvoryTowerElf »

Hello all,

After a long break, I've recently got back into warhammer, and have started collecting a HE army.

I've been thinking about the fluff, and I was wondering how to describe the High Elf class system (typical marxist...)... There's the dual monarchy (with courts attached), then there are princes in each region, then everybody else (traders, craftsmen, hunters, sailors, etc). Is it straightforwardly feudal, with the lower classes owing their allegiance to certain regional princes, who in turn owe their allegiance to the Phoenix King/Everqueen? Or is it more complicated than that? Also, are there regional variations (for instance, I like to think that some of the outer kingdoms - more ravaged by war or a little bit more wild, like Nagarythe and Chrace - have clans, whilst Eataine has more nouveau-riche merchant-prince sorts, who make their money through trade with the humans)?

Attached to this, can those of the lower classes rise further up the social scale? And if so, how (noble deeds, wealth, both?)?
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#2 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Hhmm... I always assumed Ulthuan was pretty much uniform, being they all started out in the same place, and because of mandatory military service I figured it was a warrior society. Not a lot of information really about common people, but then everyone has time in the military, this would have an impact.
Basic soliders: Everyone starts here, Archers being the lowest, Spearelves and Seaguard next depending on where you are from, these would be made up a great deal by the common elves but even the nobility start somewhere. After this there there is a branching, nobles and Princes can go Silver Helms route, commoners specialise depending on where they're from, of course nobility can continue along this course too. I would assume the higher up the military ladder you go the higher up the social ladder you go too. Common elves couldn't go as high as an elf from a noble family but by distinguishing yourself in battle you could hope to be raised to minor nobility, kind of like the Battle Standard Bearers, a minor noble probably a family retainer who has distinguished himself in battle, it kind of makes sense to me. I'm not sure where the merchant class fits in though, I clearly haven't done enough reading yet.
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#3 Post by Musashi »

All societies are structured, whether they admit or not, regardless of the presiding ideology.

Parallel society is such a loaded term, but Ulthuan is probably full of social layers that depend on the context in that they are occurring; different individuals or classes may have differing views of other individuals or professions at any particular time, especially in a race that is so long-lived as Elves. Neither is it totally a meritocracy, despite being elevated to a Prince by being the wielder of a powerful artifact or succeeding in a divine test.

A crofter could be the local militia commander based purely on his abilities and extensive experience, yet this might account for naught during a social occasion or ball because his rude upbringing, the low caste of his parents, poor academic performance and his lack of membership in a guild places him close to the bottom of the social scale (not that anyone is rude to him). Whereas at the local pub he is the most popular fellow. It could also be that everyone is comfortable with this arrangement.

Societies that actually have a functioning militia system that needs to be balanced against the needs of the economy tends to develop a military aristocracy, which eventually morphs into leveraging this aspect into social and political (probably economic) capital. The old joke in human society is how the current upper class's ancestors were the robber barons of a century ago. Politicians need a power base, whether in an executive or lobbying position.

Life as an Elf must feel like navigating through really intricate social weaves, where accomplishments and social position interface with family, clan or even provincial past history when dealing with another Elf or group of Elves, whose personal memories go back centuries, and whose institutional memories go back millenia. To use an easy example, Teclis not only is the holder of some very powerful artifacts, he can create them on his own. He is an obvious child prodigy, has proved himself the greatest living magic-user and is the High Loremaster, not only a ruler in his own right but has a seat on the ruling council. He has a unique ancestry (though cursed, which means his extended clan is very limited), related to the Everqueen, coincidentally whose current paramour is his twin brother, the most powerful general and one of the greatest Ulthuan warriors ever, whose lives he has saved. He has proved himself wise in council as well on the field of battle. I could go on, but you get the idea, Teclis's accomplishments, achievements and social connections would place him on the top of the heap, though mitigated by the family curse and a rather annoying cousin.

Social position would be dependent on both what you, your clan and your ancestors have contributed to society, though coasting on that for too long tends to lead to social decay, as there would be an expectation of both acceptance of responsibility commiserate with ability; since not everyone might want such a responsibility, or one that extends beyond what they perceive is their duty to their community, they may serve only as military commanders as required and remain withdrawn from the political structure.
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#4 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Malekith, a rather annoying cousin. I like this.
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#5 Post by IvoryTowerElf »

Very interesting, thank you. I hadn't considered the impact of obligatory military service. I suppose that this would be the main time during which Elves from all classes would have to spend long stretches of time together. Perhaps this would provide the opportunity for nobles to spot potential retainers..?
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#6 Post by Allandar »

Adding a further layer to what other people have written. The army book suggest that the Ulthuan society also values certain professions and outlooks based on the interests and pursuits of the current Pheonix King,

Example is Pre-Sundering Bel Shanaar who prsued a period of expansion, exploration and trade, leading to Tiranoc becoming the pre-eminent state and I assume elves who were successful in these areas rising in standard compared to other professions and vocations.

Bel Shanaar - Trade, Exploration, Expansion
Aenarion, Caledor, Caledor II and Tethlis - Military
Bel-Korhadris, Bel-Hathor, Morvael - Magic and Scholary pursuits
Aethis - Arts
Finubar - Diplomacy, Trade
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#7 Post by Telabir »

This is my over simplified take on things:

Before the first war against daemons Ulthuan was a theocracy, ruled by the Everqueen.
As Aenarion comes to power, we see a warrior aristocracy evolving, along with a virtual dictatorship in the form of the Phoenix kings.
In the present era I imagine the Everqueen is more of a constitutional monarch, with the real power with the Phoenix King.

In the more feudal areas of Ulthuan, such as Chrace and Caledor, I think allegiance is always owed to the Prince. However in more urban areas, particularly Eatine, allegiance may still be owed to the prince, but the people have a lot more social mobility and freedom.

As Ulthuan's population diminishes, I believe many more commoners will rise through the ranks, through feats of valour and such like. If a noble line becomes extinct, I think the title can be distributed via the Phoenix King to whomever he deems worthy.
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#8 Post by Prince of Spires »

another thing to keep in mind is that during his live the influence an elf wields will probably vary along with his fortunes. Everyone likes a winner and while you may keep "winning" for 50 odd years, to keep doing it for a 1000+ years is kind of hard. So, noble houses will wax and wane in power, gain influence and wealth and aliances and lose them as well.

In human societies this will happen from one generation to the next. In HE society this is bound to happen to one single person a few times during his life. I wouldn't be surprised to see a HE take a 20 year sabatical leave to get some rest, to lose his place as the commander of an army because of a some bad desisions and wrong friends and regain it a 100 years later again when his fortunes have turned.

In the same way a HE might very well have multiple professions in his life. Be a succesfull merchant for 300 years, turn to politics, learn a craft, become a commander etc. Time enough. Of course there are people (like Teclis) who dedicate their whole life to one thing, but the opposite is just as possible.

This would make for some dificult social "politics" where you have to keep in mind who owns who a favour, who is on the rise or fall, what someone did 236 years ago, what former positions someone has held etc. Your underling today may very well be your superior in 150 years.

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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#9 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Ye gads, remembering what i did 300 years ago, I hardly remember last week ^_^'
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#10 Post by Prince of Spires »

Tiralya wrote:Ye gads, remembering what i did 300 years ago, I hardly remember last week ^_^'
Not just what you did those few years ago, but also what your neighbours did ;)

I can imagine journals etc being popular.

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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#11 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

imagine the library you would need just to keep a diary, whoa!
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#12 Post by Musashi »

Why do you think that Depression is such a major ailment? While Elves don't go berserk; in a battle, especially if things are going badly, some may think, "Screw it", and become Fae, which means they'll keep fighting until they're dead or the enemy's out of reach. Post traumatic stress, in this case, means getting their minds back to what passes for normality or at least to a level where they are interested in other things in life.
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#13 Post by krysith »

Tiralya wrote:imagine the library you would need just to keep a diary, whoa!
Even us short lived humans can make quite a library out of a diary, if we put enough effort into it.

I once fell briefly for a beautiful artist who had been keeping a diary for 6 years - and she had already filled 14 volumes, enough to occupy an entire shelf! That was about twice the space of say, Churchill's history of the second world war. And it was all handwritten with the most beautiful script I have ever seen come from the hand of a human. She allowed me to read some of it, although never the brief part which concerned me. The diary was a work of art unto itself.

Of course, things didn't work out between us. It turned out she was rather self-absorbed... :wink:
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#14 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Musashi wrote:Why do you think that Depression is such a major ailment? While Elves don't go berserk; in a battle, especially if things are going badly, some may think, "Screw it", and become Fae, which means they'll keep fighting until they're dead or the enemy's out of reach. Post traumatic stress, in this case, means getting their minds back to what passes for normality or at least to a level where they are interested in other things in life.
I tend to believe that Elves have a natural aptitude for such mind altering or psychotic things, they in my mind would be all but immune to PTSD, Alzheimers, and the like.
As well as them being very resilient to the mundane human deseases of the body, such as cancer and the common cold, I can't see very many of them "cracking" under the pressure that they have been training for 50+ years for.
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#15 Post by Prince of Spires »

Like Asurion I believe that elves are fairly resilient to mental problems. As a people, you don't survive for long if every 100 years or so you get suicidal tendencies. However, I do feel that at some point a high elf has done everything in his live he wants and that at this point he decides to die. Unless killed in battle I feel that this is a consious desicion by an elf.

Of course there are many story possibilities for a group of elves overcome by battlelust who "wake up" from their state to find themselves somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Interesting idea for the fluff of an army.

As an aside, I do see big posibilities for IKEA in ulthuan, supplying all those book shelfs.

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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#16 Post by Larose »

I'd have to disagree with the mental resiliency only in a couple of ways. For one the bonds they create with each other over such a long time could be contrasted to a humans best friend of 30-40 years. Now if you lose this person in battle or something foul, I think it's near impossible to not experience some sort of trauma and loss to an even greater degree then a human would as it could follow them for hundreds of years. On another note I think they are prone to many of what we'd call human emotions to an even greater degree as the young would still be youthful, inexperienced and still trying to contemplate the complexity they would find in each other. When you live for so long your mistakes follow you, your regrets torment you and your loss haunts you. If you lose most of your family to war yea your gunna be pissed off for a longggg time. Which would effect other aspects in their lives.


Now of course there would be those that learnt to master their emotions and accept death and loss Yatta Yatta but I think they would not be as prevalent as we would believe

Also I'm not so sure about them losing their willingness to live is very common as the elves are aware their race is dwindling which will always give them purpose to preserve their people.
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#17 Post by Tahl »

In regards to elven mental health:

Well this is all a grey area because on one hand GW produces books in which the elven characters are almost always “Human-esque” sharing our emotions and so forth. At the same time several army and rule books from different races have the elves as being entirely alien from the human races.

Personally I think that the only logical conclusion is that they are able to overcome tragic events to a degree. Otherwise the whole race would have died out ages ago, the likely hood of me having a tragic event in my 90yr lifetime is probably pretty low. An elf's chances in their 1400yr lifetime is much higher.

As a result they must have the ability to overcome trauma, either due to a natural resistance to it or through medical means. We know that they are affected by it but it doesn't render them totally incapacitated. Eltharion would be a snivelling wreck if this was the case and not one of our finest sword masters.
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#18 Post by Musashi »

Elves invented compartmentalization.
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[i]But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing:[/i] Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#19 Post by Yvran the Prince »

I believe Elves have very powerful, turbulent emotions. However, the High Elves are very mentally disciplined. They can keep these wild emotions under control (the Dark Elves, on the other hand, allow themselves to give in to their emotions). Basically, you have to push very hard to send them over the edge, but if you manage do so, they go very far over the edge indeed.
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#20 Post by Code13 »

Sounds an obvious thing to say but it's very commonly overlooked but...Elves aren't human.

Consider how odd and even outright "alien" the behaviours of other human cultures are to us now - how westerners were baffled by Chinese and Japanese cultures when first encountered, even now they can be mistifying in their approach to certain things.

Now apply that to an entirely other species!

All we can do is relate to elves in our own terms, and by the very nature of things this is utterly flawed. Imagine this snippet:

Human "what's bothering you"
Elf "quyesha"
Human "what's that?"
Elf "there is no way to describe it in human terms"
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#21 Post by Aicanor »

Code13, you are right of course. There will be some emotions they have in common with Humans. They are both mortal if in very different ways. There will be others, cultural or innate, that will not. I think they can understand a lot of the other, at least for our benefit. It is not quite easy to deal with the "alien" part in the stories and it can be seen on the use Elves see in many BL books.
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Re: Ulthuan Culture - Class

#22 Post by Code13 »

:lol: entirely made up on the spot, so you're welcome to use it - I might add it into the lexicon
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