ET:Khaine - army lists speculation

[J4far]

The successfully cast thing is worded the same way as the High Magic lore attribute. If the spell is dispelled, then you cannot cast it again that magic phase no matter how many wizards know that spell. Unless you play that every time you beat the casting value you increase your ward save, I suppose.

[Prince of Spires]

The successfully cast thing is worded the same way as the High Magic lore attribute. If the spell is dispelled, then you cannot cast it again that magic phase no matter how many wizards know that spell. Unless you play that every time you beat the casting value you increase your ward save, I suppose.

No, it's not. The wording of the actual rule is very different from the high magic lore attribute. To compare:

Each time a spell is successfully cast, the caster and his unit...

A spell can be cast more then once as long as it is not:
- A spell for which a failed casting attempt was made in the same magic phase.

There is a very big difference between successfully casting a spell (which means after the disspell) and not making a failed casting attempt. A failed casting attempt is defined in the BRB as (p32): "if the result [of the roll] is less than the casting value, the casting attempt has failed. The spell is not cast"

As I said before, use the actual rule, not the summary of the rule (which is what everyone keeps quoting).

Rod

[RE.Lee]

Three castings of Iceshard can destroy any deathstar. Spamming Miasma means its not getting anywhere, too. Crazy stuff. Killing the enemy mage(s) is totally game ending from my experience (only 2 games so far, but still).

[Francis]

So a lvl 4 is a must in this regard? or can you manage with a Loremaster with the book? Loremaster with book, lvl 4 with high and book of Ashur might be something to consider?

[RE.Lee]

That would be my prefered choice, I think (though I might swap the Book of Ashur for a dispel scroll). Drain Magic is incredibly powerful - the amount of hexes and buffs around is going to be insane!

[J4far]

Well I'm going with you have to not have that spell dispelled to get to cast it again. I think that makes the most sense with regards to balance with the new magic phase, and to me seems like RAI. I doubt we will have a resolution to this debate until an FAQ gets released (if ever) since some people will definitely want to just keep casting spells.

It will come down to your local group I guess and tournament decisions. I know almost 100% that if/when we play with the new magic rules in my group the consensus will be no recasting if dispelled.

[Iluvatar]

Thanks for the real quote, Rod. I haven't seen a leak of the page that contains the actual rules, which is why I base my assumptions of the summary part. Good to have it right!

[J4far]

I guess I should have quoted stuff (since I have the books), so thanks for the correction Rod.

Would people be interested in starting a poll to see what people's interpretation of the recasting is? Would be interesting and informative I think for that particular discussion to be moved into rules as opposed to this topic, which is supposedly to discuss combinations using the new lists.

On that note, I am thinking of trying out Tyrion, Avatar of Khaine at 2500 points. Other than a silver helm bus to drive him to his destination (whatever big nasty my opponent has) what else would compliment him in a list? Since it is mainly a HE + DE list and everyone gets murderous prowess instead of martial prowess, and Tyrion lets you reroll all failed murderous prowess wounds not just 1s if you are within 12" I was thinking of a very CC focused army.

[deecee]

Having looked at the list I like the look of the one led by Tyrion and also the Survivors list. so I'll probably run one of those.

[Tullarion]

Would people be interested in starting a poll to see what people's interpretation of the recasting is?

I think Rod fairly well nipped that one in the bud. The rules as written are unambiguous.

[J4far]

Well time enjoy the skaven auto wins I guess. Just have to spam wither now and delete units! -1 toughness for rest of the game! Swarm the board with slaves, bump priests/characters to 2nd rank as well using 15 point engineers in the block screened by slaves, slowly advance and just keep casting wither on 2-3 dice depending on caster level (its an 8+ spell). Average phase is 14 dice so at least 7 attempts at the spell.

[Boothy]

Rod, I don’t think it’s correct to ignore the paragraphs in the overview section. There are several rules in the overview that are not found in the main section:

One example would be that only the overview says that end times spells cannot be dispelled when “cast”, the following section says they can’t be dispelled when “successfully cast”……which is a redundant statement since a spell is only “successfully cast” once the opponent has either failed to dispel or not attempted to.

Another is that only the overview mentions using a random number of dispel dice for wizards. The main section only mentions casting with a random number of dice.

This doesn’t really help matters at all…….in fact its what is causing all the ambiguity since the problematic paragraph is in the overview rather than the main section of text.

[Prince of Spires]

Rod, I don’t think it’s correct to ignore the paragraphs in the overview section. There are several rules in the overview that are not found in the main section:

A decent enough point. I personally take it that if you have a summary and an actual rules section then the actual rules section always trumps the summary. Yes, there are some rules which are only in the summary (like the random disspell dice). It feels very much like GW completely messed up the whole section or just added it in at the last minute or something. For those rules, there is no other choice then to use the overview.

But in case you have a rule which is both in the overview and in the rules section. And in the overview the actual rule is unclear and debatable while in the rules section it is completely clear what is meant then you take the rule from the rules section.

Of course, feel free to play it differently. I'm guessing that if they are going to be used at all then the End Times rules will see a lot of houseruling. No reason not to add another one.

Rod

[RogueSun]

Well time enjoy the skaven auto wins I guess. Just have to spam wither now and delete units! -1 toughness for rest of the game! Swarm the board with slaves, bump priests/characters to 2nd rank as well using 15 point engineers in the block screened by slaves, slowly advance and just keep casting wither on 2-3 dice depending on caster level (its an 8+ spell). Average phase is 14 dice so at least 7 attempts at the spell.

If this is really a concern then use 50% of your list solely for WayStalkers and drop 5+ characters a turn. Practical? No. But it'd certainly delete his characters FAR quicker than he'd delete your army.

[Tullarion]

And, considering he'd have to cast wither 3 times... per unit... it's definitely not as economical as dreaded 13th. I don't think wither is what I'd be worried about. Heck, spamming three soul quenches could end up deleting a unit as well as three withers... and wither only kills if it gets off the third time (on T3 units), while soul quench kills with every casting. Being withered to death isn't a huge concern to me.

[Shadeseraph]

Well, now that the dust has settled, I'm casting my vote:

High elves straight from the book for me. Three reasons:

1- The combined lists aren't going to be accepted in most competitive environments, at least for some time.
2- I don't want to be forced to use the ET:K magic every time.
3- In my casual environment, I am the one with the most experience, by far. These lists are vastly more powerful than the standard HE/DE/WE lists. I don't want to be a douche.

Now, my only concern is what to do with PG and SoA in my fluff army. My two options are either cheating fluff (as in, these are "nega"-PG and "nega"-SoA who stole the power granted to them) or just plain removing them from the army.

[draxynnic]

Could play the 'shame they never progressed to story' card. You know, like how Highlander was a good movie, shame they never made a sequel?

[Ladril Caledor]

And, considering he'd have to cast wither 3 times... per unit... it's definitely not as economical as dreaded 13th. I don't think wither is what I'd be worried about. Heck, spamming three soul quenches could end up deleting a unit as well as three withers... and wither only kills if it gets off the third time (on T3 units), while soul quench kills with every casting. Being withered to death isn't a huge concern to me.

I don't think you can kill with Withering. It reduces toughness down to a minimum of one. Same with enfeebling foe. It really weakens units, but it can't kill them by itself.

[sandstorm]

And, considering he'd have to cast wither 3 times... per unit... it's definitely not as economical as dreaded 13th. I don't think wither is what I'd be worried about. Heck, spamming three soul quenches could end up deleting a unit as well as three withers... and wither only kills if it gets off the third time (on T3 units), while soul quench kills with every casting. Being withered to death isn't a huge concern to me.

I don't think you can kill with Withering. It reduces toughness down to a minimum of one. Same with enfeebling foe. It really weakens units, but it can't kill them by itself.

He means Skaven spell Wither, not Withering.

[J4far]

Yeah the Skaven spell is -1 toughness, PERMANENT, and if spell reduces toughness to 0 then model is removed as a casualty. Only 12" range but extremely nasty if you can cast it. Much scarier than Dreaded 13th since you only need an 8 to cast (instead of 25!)

[RE.Lee]

Park a Screaming Bell (or even the Pestilence shrine) sideways and fire away!

[Ladril Caledor]

Sorry, my mistake, I thought wither was a shortform...that Skaven spell looks deadly indeed...

I played a test game today, to see what happens if you can keep casting the same spell after it is dispelled... a High Archmage (with Book of Hoeth) and Metal Supreme Sorceress (with sacrificial dagger) vs Malekith the Eternity King. Both armies had a balanced mix of supporting units.

My conclusions are...
1: magic phases with these rules can take a really long time, but I would argue there is more strategy than before. You really need to have a well thought out plan for either casting or countering on every single magic phase. In my test game, Malekith would spam Withering and Enfeebling foe, then the next phase the High Archmage would spam drain magic repeatedly until they were removed. In hindsight Malekith should have let Drain Magic through and saved his dispel dice for Arcane Unforging and Searing Doom which were his major threats.


2: the high archmage with book of hoeth is devastating. Go for deadlock at the start of the phase, if your lucky enough to get it off, all your opponent can do is cry. Either way you can then spam drain magic to undo any of your opponents augments and hexes, soul quench for damage, arcane unforge your opponents characters, and fiery convocate any large units. Once they are on fire, your opponent will need a lot of luck to get enough dice to dispel in subsequent turns. In my test game the archmage was in a Dragon Prince bus and I found I was easily getting a 3+ ward every single turn with so many dice and so many low cost spells, many of which your opponent will have to let through.

3: I've heard elsewhere that people think Malekith is overpowered, but he never had a hope in hell against this metal sorceress and high archmage combo. The Malekith army was slaughtered.

4: I think I'd be a lot happier with these rules if you couldn't cast the same spell again after it is dispelled. It would be more balanced and fun this way, and in my opinion actually better than the 8th edition magic rules.

5: Although I'm pretty convinced that this test game was played with the correct interpretation of the rules, I'm annoyed at GW for making the wording of the rules so ambiguous. Nagash and Glottkin got FAQ'd pretty quickly so hopefully the same happens for Khaine.

6: If this is the way the rules are supposed to be, then in my opinion High Magic is the strongest lore now. I kind of like this, its High Magic, the eight winds combined, it SHOULD be the best.

[Tullarion]

In my casual environment, I am the one with the most experience, by far. These lists are vastly more powerful than the standard HE/DE/WE lists. I don't want to be a douche

Same here, man. I never really had trouble with my win/loss ratio as it was. Giving me dark elf special rules for free, and a character who is essentially an unkillable shadow loremaster with a super book of hoeth (who flies, with monster stats, and a free, undispellable walk between worlds) is silly. If I played that list, I would win, and I'd feel like a schmuck.

Nagash and Glottkin got FAQ'd pretty quickly so hopefully the same happens for Khaine.

I would much rather, that instead of quickly putting out FAQs for their new campaign supplements, that they put out FAQs for army books that are already several years old (like ours!). Also, instead of new campaign books that kill off all our characters and screw up 30 years of fluff, they could finish updating the rest of the army books (Beastmen 6th, Bretonnia 6th, Skaven 7th).

Especially Skaven, because they have a date with a nerf bat.

[draxynnic]

The current Beastmen book IS 7th edition - it was either right before or right after Skaven, IIRC. Certainly late enough in 7th's development that it was made with some of the rule changes planned for 8th in mind.

[Shannar, Sealord]

the Bret book is almost 11 years old now. I think that's some kind of record.

[draxynnic]

Only if you don't count Chaos Dwarfs.

But yeah, I'd have to say it doesn't look good for them. The WE book looked like it was setting up for the Brets to be increased in prominence in their next book, but it turned out to be a setup for End Times instead, and while not completely wiped off the map yet, I don't think there's much hope for Bretonnia to remain a major power after the End Times.

[Shannar, Sealord]

Only if you don't count Chaos Dwarfs.

But yeah, I'd have to say it doesn't look good for them. The WE book looked like it was setting up for the Brets to be increased in prominence in their next book, but it turned out to be a setup for End Times instead, and while not completely wiped off the map yet, I don't think there's much hope for Bretonnia to remain a major power after the End Times.

Well, if you want to go that route I call pygmies etc. Or even DoW. Not quite as long yet I don't think, but at least the CDs got a forgeworld book.

I expected to see them folded into empire. I think instead we'll see them ignored and then not be around in 9th (at least as an independent force anyway). Or we'll see a redo of Responce de Lyonese save the day. Warhammer should have a Joan of Arc character, and Bretonnia is set up fairly nice for it. It's not likely, but it's what I'd like to see.

[deecee]

Bretonnians do have a Joan of Arc character in their book = Repanse De Lyonesse

[draxynnic]

Only if you don't count Chaos Dwarfs.

But yeah, I'd have to say it doesn't look good for them. The WE book looked like it was setting up for the Brets to be increased in prominence in their next book, but it turned out to be a setup for End Times instead, and while not completely wiped off the map yet, I don't think there's much hope for Bretonnia to remain a major power after the End Times.

Well, if you want to go that route I call pygmies etc. Or even DoW. Not quite as long yet I don't think, but at least the CDs got a forgeworld book.

I expected to see them folded into empire. I think instead we'll see them ignored and then not be around in 9th (at least as an independent force anyway). Or we'll see a redo of Responce de Lyonese save the day. Warhammer should have a Joan of Arc character, and Bretonnia is set up fairly nice for it. It's not likely, but it's what I'd like to see.

As I understand it, the Forge World book covers a specific splinter force rather than the Chaos Dwarfs as a whole. It's like taking the Sea Patrol list from Storm of Chaos and calling that a substitute for the High Elf list - it just isn't the case. The official Chaos Dwarf army list is still the Ravening Hordes list, which puts them in a unique position of being the only army that technically has an official list, but where that list hasn't been updated since Ravening Hordes. (DoW got updated in or before 2004 - their "current" list is in a compilation book from around that time. Still very obsolete, but not quite so obsolete.)

Pygmies are well before my time, but since they didn't appear in Ravening Hordes I think it's safe to say they've been officially dropped rather than the 'technically still in the game because we never invalidated the old lists, but we're neither producing models nor updating rules' status that CDs (and DoW) have had. You'd get odd looks if you took CDs or DoW to a game in the current climate, I'm sure, but they at least theoretically have official rules that are compatible with the current ruleset.

Also, did the pygmies ever have a full army book? That's another distinguishing factor, as the CDs and DoW had full army books in 5th.

[Shannar, Sealord]

They predate army books.