End Times: Khaine fluff discussion (may contain spoilers)

[Truthiness]

Yea. I know he was wearing it, but I was wondering if they just left it there to sink with Ulthuan. If they did, I say that elves do need to invent a submarine... like now-ish...

Ah I gotcha. Nope, no word on that. Pretty sure they just left it there. They were in a bit of a hurry to, you know, save their race from sinking into the ocean.

[aurynn]

The part of chaos winning in the end - Its just an extension of entropy law. There is absolutely no indication as for how long period is meant until the Chaos wins. It might be millenia. On the other hand that "prophecy" of elves having no future... That might be pretty short-term.

[Aicanor]

I guess my sword is better used gathering whatever remains of our old world than sulking for this loss. Let me help. We should collect some of the plants and animals from our land, I'd hate to see them lost to the raging tides.

Excellent idea, let's promote UWPT (Ulthuan Wildlife Preserving Trust).

You're welcome to join me in the colonies. I'm setting up the city of Spires as the capital for Ulthuan-in-Exile. The last home of the true High Elves. I'll just have to see if I can get Gilladis to play along. Otherwise we'll end up with 2 of those and have a whole new kind of split in the HE.

I am going to put the old contingency plans of Bel Korhadris into action and save the Library of Hoeth from sinking. We are going to need it. Plain survival doesn't satisfy me. Any allies to join forces with here?

And here I was thinking it might be a good time to go back to being sea elves.

We can always conSpire with Rod.
My ancestral home and port of Tor Irian just so happen to be part of the lodestone system around the Tower. the one good thing about this is - no more sail-through taxes from Lothern.
But for the start I think I will rather go for airborne. And put flying chariots to good use at last.

[Katastrophe]

From Warseer

*Blessing Malekith apparently took the last bit of mojo Asuryan had. He's pretty much dead now, barring the power residing in Malekith.

*Hotek is still alive, becomes Vaul's avatar long enough to reforge Malekith's sword (which Tyrion destroyed) into Asuryath, then kills himself with it.

*Orion dies against Tyrion in the battle for Averlorn.

*Alarielle pledges to marry Malekith after the war is won.

*Teclis knows his plan to bind the winds of magic will sink Ulthuan, but Alarielle says they can go hang in Athel Loren afterwords.

*Malekith initially forbids the plan, only agreeing when Tyrion is on the verge of victory.

*Final battle takes place on the Isle of the Dead.

*Tyrion uses the Widowmaker to summon undead from the surrounding waters to compliment his army. Five buried Phoenix Kings, including Finubar, are among them.

*Malekith summons fiery spirits of all ten post-Aenarion Phoenix Kings to fight back. Then, with Asuryan's magic, he calls up every single hero ever to lay down their lives for the elves, including Eltharion the Grim.

*This forces Tyrion to charge himself, but also messes up Teclis' spells to unravel the vortex.

*Tyrion tries to charge Teclis while he's distracted, Malhandir throws him off.

*Tyrion goes for Teclis anyway. Malekith tries to run him down with his dragon, but Morathi calls out in time for him to avoid it. Morathi shoots down the dragon and Tyrion is on Malekith.

*It takes a while, but Tyrion is beating Malekith in a straight fight. He shatters Malekith's sword a second time.

*Alith Anar shoots Tyrion just as he's about to land the final blow.

*Malekith almost dies, but is saved by being bound to the Wind of Shadow.

*Alarielle is the vessel of the Wind of Life, her presence reinvigorating wounded elves.

*Alith Anar also shot Malekith in the back.

*Alarielle mourns Tyrion, who looks handsome again in death.

*Malekith picks up Widowmaker, which has become an ordinary sword. He tosses it into the ocean.

*Ulthuan starts sinking, Alarielle has to evacuate everybody to Athel Loren.

*Alith Anar is the original, and he shot Malekith as a warning. The arrow tip is next to his heart, and according to him can't be removed. It causes constant pain. He says he'll kill Malekith with the net if he fails.

*Alarielle, now married to Malekith, says that Morei-heg won't pulling the strings of fate anymore. Presumably she is dead.

*Malekith, when alone, reveals he's already removed Alith's arrowhead.

*The book end with the elves chilling in Athel Loren, but with the quote that they have no future.


So Teclis isn't killed that's good news
but Alith Anar shooting down Tyrion is just wrong.....

Unfortunately for something that had such rich and nuanced history (which has been pretty consistent over 8 variants of the rulebook,

This sounds simply horrible and basically nonsensical. Why bother to build up heroes and villains if you are going to just dump it all and have the heroes act totally against character. Then have the big bad just get the win, without actually redeeming himself.

Were this a movie, almost everyone would want their money back. It would be like the Emperor killing Darth and Luke and all the rebels deciding, "hey I guess you were right all along and we will go ahead and follow you."

[Truthiness]

Why does everyone always seem to forget about the Everqueen in these discussions? In my book "Malekith winning" as the "big bad" means that the Everqueen dies and Malekith rules on his own. That's not the case. She's still alive, kicking, and pretty awesome in her own right. Last I checked, the Everqueen was the heart of High Elven society, not the Phoenix King. She, like Teclis, is given two shitty options and takes the slightly less shitty choice of siding with Malekith instead of 'roid raging Tyrion. Having actually read the book as opposed to these over generalized summaries, the story as a whole works. As I've said, it's not cut and dry. It's a fairly nuanced story. I fucking hated Malekith through it all, but understood why each player did what they did. Faced with the end of the world, those with enough foresight made the difficult, but correct, decision to side with Asuryan's (shitty) choice in opposition to Khaine.

What you need to accept is Asuryan is a dick. The signs have been there, but I think we've all ignored them, assuming he a was a beneficent god when in actually he's more like Zeus. He's in charge whether you like it or not, likes to choose douche bags as his chosen (how many Greek heroes where guilty of rape and/or genocide? I mean come on.), and doesn't give a fuck what anyone else things (yeah Hera...I'm gonna go bang that servant girl...See you at 8!).

[Diinekis]

he's more like Zeus. He's in charge whether you like it or not, likes to choose douche bags as his chosen (how many Greek heroes where guilty of rape and/or genocide? I mean come on.), and doesn't give a fuck what anyone else things (yeah Hera...I'm gonna go bang that servant girl...See you at 8!).

your oversimplistic view on greek mythology is really amazing...i will not comment at that further, because it wouldn't be rellevant to the topic.

[KelliStClaire]

Why does everyone always seem to forget about the Everqueen in these discussions? In my book "Malekith winning" as the "big bad" means that the Everqueen dies and Malekith rules on his own. That's not the case. She's still alive, kicking, and pretty awesome in her own right. Last I checked, the Everqueen was the heart of High Elven society, not the Phoenix King. She, like Teclis, is given two shitty options and takes the slightly less shitty choice of siding with Malekith instead of 'roid raging Tyrion. Having actually read the book as opposed to these over generalized summaries, the story as a whole works. As I've said, it's not cut and dry. It's a fairly nuanced story. I fucking hated Malekith through it all, but understood why each player did what they did. Faced with the end of the world, those with enough foresight made the difficult, but correct, decision to side with Asuryan's (shitty) choice in opposition to Khaine.

What you need to accept is Asuryan is a dick. The signs have been there, but I think we've all ignored them, assuming he a was a beneficent god when in actually he's more like Zeus. He's in charge whether you like it or not, likes to choose douche bags as his chosen (how many Greek heroes where guilty of rape and/or genocide? I mean come on.), and doesn't give a fuck what anyone else things (yeah Hera...I'm gonna go bang that servant girl...See you at 8!).

Not it doesn't work, it works for that talentless hack know as Gav Thorpe, who
- wrote 3 terrible books about Malekith, Alith Anar, Caledor
- those 3 somehow survive whole thing
- Tyrion motives to draw Widowmaker are shady at best.
- the fact that Mortahi who on many occasions tried to undo the vortex now is fighting against it
- but wasn't Teclis plan to side with Malekiith long before Tyrion took Widowmaker ? That's what it is. Makes no sense.
-

[jazzi]

Heya all you refugees. Welcome. I am a fellow Wood Elve Cousin. Just checking in real quick as... you know... shait indeed hit the fan in the old country. Well, the forest is crowded now. Ahem, just a few quick rules:

1: No meat. We dont eat meat, get prepared to eat ... veggies, This means, dont hunt Deer. They will hunt you if you try.
2: Dont break branches of trees. They ... well, how do I say this. They dont like. They have feelings. Aaaand, as the forest spirits really dont like elves these days, they will break parts off of you in return.
3: The south eastern parts of the forest. It is really not advised to go there at night. And day. And all other times, bad neighborhood. Might not find your way back in one piece. Ask the Rangers for special permit if you dont care good luck.
4: Once every year we take a field trip down to Quenelles and hunt down the Bretonians. Feel free to join. We call it "Wild Hunt", its kinda our national sport. Its not mandatory ... but no one really ever stayed home, ever. Its like a surge, you loose control, big gore fest fun. Remember, leave some Brets for next year. Orion led the charge in the past, well, he is gone, Tyrion killed him appaently, but I am sure Malekith will make a good wild huntsman *cough*.

So long.

And you.. over there, yes you, put that down, thats my bow...

________
EDIT:
Forgot to mention: Make no fire. Goes without saying...

[Katastrophe]

Why does everyone always seem to forget about the Everqueen in these discussions? In my book "Malekith winning" as the "big bad" means that the Everqueen dies and Malekith rules on his own. That's not the case. She's still alive, kicking, and pretty awesome in her own right. Last I checked, the Everqueen was the heart of High Elven society, not the Phoenix King. She, like Teclis, is given two shitty options and takes the slightly less shitty choice of siding with Malekith instead of 'roid raging Tyrion. Having actually read the book as opposed to these over generalized summaries, the story as a whole works. As I've said, it's not cut and dry. It's a fairly nuanced story. I fucking hated Malekith through it all, but understood why each player did what they did. Faced with the end of the world, those with enough foresight made the difficult, but correct, decision to side with Asuryan's (shitty) choice in opposition to Khaine.

What you need to accept is Asuryan is a dick. The signs have been there, but I think we've all ignored them, assuming he a was a beneficent god when in actually he's more like Zeus. He's in charge whether you like it or not, likes to choose douche bags as his chosen (how many Greek heroes where guilty of rape and/or genocide? I mean come on.), and doesn't give a fuck what anyone else things (yeah Hera...I'm gonna go bang that servant girl...See you at 8!).

And the only issue with all of this is that Malekith was the direct cause of the suffering of his own people. When he decided that he would not accept losing his throne (that he wimped out of taking by bailing on the process because it hurt), he proceeded to cause the deaths of likely 100s of 1000s of elves over 6000 years. At no time did he choose to do what was best for the Elves as a whole and even cavorted with demons and the dark arts. To eventually come back and say, well our god is a douche and this is the guy he wants to lead us is, well, dumb. The fact that he has attempted joint invasions with Chaos, along with actually sending N'kari to kill Alarielle, which without Tyrion and Teclis's intervention would have ended the line of the Everqueens, should immediately bring pause to all the High Elves.

They should have started singing that old elven spiritual with respect to Malekith and Assuryan.
"If killing you is wrong, I don't want to be right"

[Truthiness]

your oversimplistic view on greek mythology is really amazing...i will not comment at that further, because it wouldn't be rellevant to the topic.

I was making a joke. Do you really think that my entire view of greek mythology is depicted in one sentence? If so, you have an overly simplistic view of my views. Try not to take this so seriously. This is all make believe after all.

And the only issue with all of this is that Malekith was the direct cause of the suffering of his own people. When he decided that he would not accept losing his throne (that he wimped out of taking by bailing on the process because it hurt), he proceeded to cause the deaths of likely 100s of 1000s of elves over 6000 years. At no time did he choose to do what was best for the Elves as a whole and even cavorted with demons and the dark arts. To eventually come back and say, well our god is a douche and this is the guy he wants to lead us is, well, dumb. The fact that he has attempted joint invasions with Chaos, along with actually sending N'kari to kill Alarielle, which without Tyrion and Teclis's intervention would have ended the line of the Everqueens, should immediately bring pause to all the High Elves.

The book gets into this quite a bit. Teclis calls him out on wimping out on the flames, to include the whole 6000 years of unnecessary civil war. He does eventually realize that he needs to act for the good of all Elves. He's still a selfish prick, but his leadership is apparently what the gods have decided is needed. I definitely get where you're coming from wondering why the fuck this guy is Asuryan's chosen. But keep in mind, you're trying to rationalize the actions and motivations of a pantheon of gods, something that is by definition anathema to reason.

Also, as I've said, the way I've read it is most High Elves do not side with Malekith outright. Most that do are doing so under Imrik's banner for most of the civil war not knowing that Malekith is the true leader. As was the case in the past, the Dragons make up for the lack of numbers. Malekith starts to outright lose the war and supporters once he reveals himself again. You're absolutely right his past actions should give High Elves pause. It gives them so much pause that an overwhelming number of them say "fuck you, I'm gonna go party with Khaine." I think the main reason I like this book is Thorpe never tries to get me to like Malekith. Ever. I still really hate this guy. My army is gonna go party with the Everqueen and say nuts to this whole "king" idea.

Not it doesn't work, it works for that talentless hack know as Gav Thorpe, who
- wrote 3 terrible books about Malekith, Alith Anar, Caledor
- those 3 somehow survive whole thing
- Tyrion motives to draw Widowmaker are shady at best.
- the fact that Mortahi who on many occasions tried to undo the vortex now is fighting against it
- but wasn't Teclis plan to side with Malekiith long before Tyrion took Widowmaker ? That's what it is. Makes no sense.

I don't want to come off as condescending here, but I have to ask if you've actually read the book. What I'm seeing from your post are generalizations that lack context. There's a hell of a lot more to the book that addresses your points. It is a good deal better than Malekith, Shadow King and Caledor (I attempted to re-read those this last week and it did not go well). I'm not saying it's a perfect book. Far from it. The most annoying parts are the flash backs in Malekith's mind where Thorpe quotes those very books. Talk about lazy writing.

To your point about Tyrion, however, I'm sorry, but the writing has been on the wall forever. I've been reading about the call of the Sword of Khaine for as long as I have been in the hobby. At least they've finally given him reason other than 'the sword is calling to him.' Grief is by far the better motivator from a story telling perspective, especially grief of a lost child.

[KelliStClaire]

Maybe grief is enough reason but I don't think so. Aenarion took the sword out of grief but also desperation as it was only way to save his people, Tyrion is doing because what ? His child is dead it could be good enough reason but it's another way to cheapen this character.

I know he was somehow destined to take this sword, but I don't like the reason. I don't like a reason Malekith is know Pheonix King, but still details like Morathi preventing Teclis work of undoing vortex is just plain stupid, as for decades she was trying to undo the vortex

[Azrael the Archangel]

I have enjoyed this website for over 5 years without ever creating a profile until now. The sheer volume of hate towards this supplement Warhammer: Khaine, is hilarious.

I've heard complaints such as "the High Elves vs. Dark Elves" war is more human to me... hello, they are Elves, not Humans. Who really knows what the hell an Elf feels when their very existence is threatened? I mean, let's say Aliens come to earth. All those muslim extremists would sure be handy if humanity were to unit as a race to fight that threat. Kind of a weird example but it works.

And yes, a few liberties get taken in order to advance the story in a way that are not pristine or perfect - that's okay. We live in an imperfect world. It's not like every Elf just bows down to Malekith out of no where. Reads to me like even when he is made Eternity King he still has a pile of detractors.

Then there's my favourite - I don't want Doomfire Warlocks in an Army lead by Alarielle! I'm with you on that, and so I won't field an army like that. Just because it's an option doesn't mean it has to be played. The Host of the Eternity King is set to represent that all Elves are fighting a common enemy.

Here's an example. My brother plays High Elves. He is pumped for this list. High Infantry supported by Wood Elf Archers and a few other things. No Dark Elves in sight. In his own army fluff, his general will fight for the elves, but in his own force will not suffer any Dark Elves, no biggie.

I play Dark Elves and High Elves. My Dark Elf army might borrow a unit two once in a while for the fun of it, but it's still a Dark Elf army fighting for the Elves. All Elves. I don't use my High Elves as often, but maybe they need to borrow a Reaper Bolt Thrower or two cause I only have two of the High Elf ones, whatever.

Regarding speculation on units getting turfed in a new 9th Edition book. It's not really fair to rip something up based on where you speculate this is going. Until some substantiated rumours become available, who is to say what will happen? Any conclusions drawn now are definitely premature. For example, in the new book if the have a profile for Elven spearmen, it would cover cover all three elven armies' version of spearmen. Models will differ from roster to roster but in the end they are elven spearmen. And yeah they may release new spearmen to use too.

It's the End Times, some weird shit is going to happen. Who the hell knows what will happen? Why can't we wait until all the information is out before jumping to such over the top conclusions and/or rage!

Elves are for the Elves now people!

[FVC]

your oversimplistic view on greek mythology is really amazing...i will not comment at that further, because it wouldn't be rellevant to the topic.

Pop culture views of mythology are usually wrong.

As far as Asuryan goes, I think it's probably just worth reiterating that GW is really bad at writing gods. That goes for all of them, not just the elven deities.

Anyway, my reaction to all of this is basically to be appalled as well. It's an utterly hideous mutilation of the identity and narrative background of the elves, and I propose to ignore it entirely.

[Shadeseraph]

I'm still wondering what makes Imrik go along with Malekith' and Teclis' plans. Exactly why Imrik decides to follow Malekith? He is proud, powerful and a solid general himself, so he shouldn't really feel the need to back up his old enemy, and could just take the leadership himself. Ass-uryan's blessing would count for something, sure, but if he got wind of what transpired, I'm not so sure I'd be able to have faith on a god that hasn't faith on me in his place. Truthiness said he was the one that leaded the army, too.

I'm not saying this is a plothole, I sincerely am curious about this.

[Mireadur]

But keep in mind, you're trying to rationalize the actions and motivations of Gav Thorpe, something that is by definition anathema to reason.

Sorry i had to correct that...

[SuperHappyTime]

I'm still wondering what makes Imrik go along with Malekith' and Teclis' plans. Exactly why Imrik decides to follow Malekith? He is proud, powerful and a solid general himself, so he shouldn't really feel the need to back up his old enemy, and could just take the leadership himself. Ass-uryan's blessing would count for something, sure, but if he got wind of what transpired, I'm not so sure I'd be able to have faith on a god that hasn't faith on me in his place. Truthiness said he was the one that leaded the army, too.

I'm not saying this is a plothole, I sincerely am curious about this.

Until it comes out, who knows for certain. Here are some possible theories for you:
-He really didn't like the idea of Tyrion as PKing. Tyrion's actions are clearly not for the better of the Elves, but for his personal feelings for Aliathra. Thus, side with Malekith as usurper.
-Malekith may have bribed or coerced him
-Teclis or Alarielle might have convinced him

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

@ Truthiness

Would you recommend ET:Khaine BL book?

[Rhawtir]

It's been so many years since I last wrote anything on here. I must say I'm baffled by these news. Unlike many I can't say I hate it or despise GW for what they've done but I must say I feel a little more odd than I thought I would hearing that Ulthuan has sunk in the ocean. 14 years I've played this game, imagined all these places, drawn an elf or two and painted an army of high elves.

I may sound sentimental but we've all spent a lot of time thinking of these things. Ever since the end of the 6th edition I wanted some changes, something drastic. I didn't like the ending of the storm of chaos, it all felt kind of pointless. The albion campaign was fine, but also felt a little on the smaller scale. But what can be said of this. I don't know, really, but I know I'll have a look in that old 6th edition core rulebook tonight.

Anyway, I hope GW gives us elves something to hope for once all this bloodshed is done. I hope not all of the gods have died, or that some flame may be rekindled. I guess we all ended up being colonials then.


I remember Ulthuan...

[Shannar, Sealord]

But keep in mind, you're trying to rationalize the actions and motivations of Gav Thorpe, something that is by definition anathema to reason.

Sorry i had to correct that...

Well done. People seem for forget GW controls what the gods decide. "Because the god said so" isn't any better of a plot device than "Because Magic".

[aquietfrog]

All this fluff discussion makes me think is: "I ought to buy myself an Alith Anar model."

[Shadeseraph]

-He really didn't like the idea of Tyrion as PKing. Tyrion's actions are clearly not for the better of the Elves, but for his personal feelings for Aliathra. Thus, side with Malekith as usurper.
-Malekith may have bribed or coerced him
-Teclis or Alarielle might have convinced him

No, no, my question (which was mostly directed to Truthiness, as he has read the book ) was why couldn't he just say "Who needs a (phoenix) king?" and just start a new dinasty. I reckon he was good enough, and Ass-uryan gave high elves plenty motive to ignore him altogether, though I admit that decission could have its own problems.

[aurynn]

@Azrael the Archangel
Totally agree with you. At least it made you to finally join us.

Maybe grief is enough reason but I don't think so.

Have you ever lost a child to a vile necromancer's ritual while being drawn for centuries to something as powerful as Widowmaker that promises vengeance and solution to the threat of your people and is deeply rooted in you while the world around you is about to burn to ash, while also being extremely confident and proud? I dont think so... please dont judge what you cant even imagine...

[Shannar, Sealord]

While the story that got us there isn't one I'm fond of. I am happy with the expected result of a combined elven list. Though mally needs to die.

I hope 9th keeps them combined. I started out in this game playing Elves. It's kind of nice to be back there.

[aurynn]

But keep in mind, you're trying to rationalize the actions and motivations of Gav Thorpe, something that is by definition anathema to reason.

Sorry i had to correct that...

Well done. People seem for forget GW controls what the gods decide. "Because the god said so" isn't any better of a plot device than "Because Magic".

This can be said for any fantasy setting where gods influence the events. I dont hear people complaining about those. Its only fair to use the same judgement for this. Its a book as well. Really all this saying "what the writer should have written" is totally beyond my understanding. We would not need writers if the stories should be based to consensus of the community, would we?

[FVC]

I do want to say, in response to Truthiness:

I have now read The Curse of Khaine myself, and while I applaud your effort to put a positive spin on it... it's futile. Really.

There is just no excusing it. It is awful. Please, everyone, do not read it. Do not buy it. I know I'm not being very coherent, but... just, don't get it. It is not worth it.

[aurynn]

I do want to say, in response to Truthiness:

I have now read The Curse of Khaine myself, and while I applaud your effort to put a positive spin on it... it's futile. Really.

There is just no excusing it. It is awful. Please, everyone, do not read it. Do not buy it. I know I'm not being very coherent, but... just, don't get it. It is not worth it.

And you are the ultimate judge and you are sure that all of us will hate it. Will send you a list of books for review okay? And here I thought that Tyrion is arrogant.

[Furion]

There are only 2 genres of good Fantasy books:
1. A. Sapkowski, "The Witcher" series
2. F. Herbert, "Dune" series

Any other fantasy I've read (and there have been a few, warhammer ones included) doesn't even come close to those 2 titles.

Maybe a little bit OT, but reading never hurt anyone!

cheers
Furion

[aurynn]

Opinions... one has to love the diversity. I for one never could relate to Witcher. All my friends loved it, but I just didnt get the feeling of wanting to read ever more and more. For me its Howard and Tolkien. But I have yet to read some of the books that are considered greatest. On the other hand I totally dislike Martin's work. Weird huh?

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

I do want to say, in response to Truthiness:

I have now read The Curse of Khaine myself, and while I applaud your effort to put a positive spin on it... it's futile. Really.

There is just no excusing it. It is awful. Please, everyone, do not read it. Do not buy it. I know I'm not being very coherent, but... just, don't get it. It is not worth it.

And you are the ultimate judge and you are sure that all of us will hate it. Will send you a list of books for review okay? And here I thought that Tyrion is arrogant.

Did you read "The Curse of Khaine"?

[aurynn]

I do want to say, in response to Truthiness:

I have now read The Curse of Khaine myself, and while I applaud your effort to put a positive spin on it... it's futile. Really.

There is just no excusing it. It is awful. Please, everyone, do not read it. Do not buy it. I know I'm not being very coherent, but... just, don't get it. It is not worth it.

And you are the ultimate judge and you are sure that all of us will hate it. Will send you a list of books for review okay? And here I thought that Tyrion is arrogant.

Did you read "The Curse of Khaine"?

No. My point was that even if someone hates it, he shouldnt first say that someone else's opinion is wrong and then go about telling everyone else to discard that opinion and do what he says in a kinda imperative way.