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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:10 pm 
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soooo does a loremaster know all end times spells???

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:12 pm 
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aurynn wrote:
ArcaneSnow wrote:
Rainbow.. I'm with you on this one. I love the game.. but I'm questioning my loyalty with every passing day.
Or maybe I'm just upset cause I only play high elves.. hmm.


What is preventing you to continue playing only High Elves?


Because like it or not what draws a lot of people to this game is the story. Knowing you don't like the end could take a lot of the fun out of the fight for those people.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:17 pm 
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I've got a couple pictures in my wassap. It's in regards to the ET magic.

Wizards that do not generate spells following the normal rules (such as Loremasters of Hoeth, for example), use their special rules to generate their spells, but will know all the spells from each spell lore that they can use any spells from.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:19 pm 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
aurynn wrote:
ArcaneSnow wrote:
Rainbow.. I'm with you on this one. I love the game.. but I'm questioning my loyalty with every passing day.
Or maybe I'm just upset cause I only play high elves.. hmm.


What is preventing you to continue playing only High Elves?


Because like it or not what draws a lot of people to this game is the story. Knowing you don't like the end could take a lot of the fun out of the fight for those people.


I think the same. If you kill the spirit you're playing a fraud. It's really sad. I don't know where it is going but I'm sure I'm not gonna like it. Maybe they'll ave some new players but I'm super sure a lot of old player won't go there.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:26 pm 
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more things:

Loremaster:
The loremaster special rule is changed to the following:

A wizard with the loremaster special rule can re-roll all of the dice used to attempt to cast a spell from his chosen lore, including rolls that result in the spell being miscast and/or cast with irresistible force. Thhe lore in question is normally given in brackets as part of the Loremaster special rule. For example, a model with the Loremaster (fire) special rule could re-roll attempts to cast spells from the Lore of Fire.

General:

Spells can be used any number of times in each Magic phase, as long as all previous attempts to cast the spell have been successful. The only exception to this are End Times spells, and any other spell with a casting value of 15+ or more, which can only be selected once each Magic Phase, wither the previous attempt to cast them was successful or not.

Withards never break concentration, and can keep on casting spells as long as dice are left in the power pool. However, a spell still fails if the total of the dice scores is less than 3.

After picking a wizard and declaring which spell you want them to cast, you must roll a D6. THe result of the roll is the maximum number of dice you can use to cast that spell (the minimum number of dice you must use is always one). You must also roll a D6 to see how many dice a Wizard can use to dispel a spell.


EDIT:

The Magic of the End Times rules must be used instead of the rules from the Warhammer rulebook if any of the following conditions apply:

-Magic of the End Times is listed as a special rule for a scenario.
-If either player is fielding an army chosen using an Elven Hosts army list from this book.
-If either player is using a unit from the New Armies and Units section of this book.
-If either player wants to use the Magic of the End Times rules instead of the rules for magic in the Warhammer rulebook.

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Last edited by Shadeseraph on Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:35 pm 
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ah balls our loremaster is only a lvl 2, so he wont know end times spells, however a lvl 4 loremaster slaan will I take it

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:43 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RijB8wnJCN0

that's what this stuff is

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:54 pm 
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I think the same. If you kill the spirit you're playing a fraud. It's really sad. I don't know where it is going but I'm sure I'm not gonna like it. Maybe they'll ave some new players but I'm super sure a lot of old player won't go there.


That's a really big reason why. It just doesn't feel like the same love and attention got put into creating this part of the story for all the fans. Doesn't help that where I live, the Khaine book was sold out preorders in 20 minutes and feels like it's impossible to get one atm. The over all problem is that they are really killing the story for me and I can't wrap my head around how GW is promoting the end times as the biggest event that has happened to fantasy in a while, yet they're only rehashing old ideas and marketing them as new ones. Feels like 40k Unbound... I don't play 40k, but watching a couple games of those just makes me never want to touch it.

*edit: With that said.. Nagash was very well put together. Just grumpy at the whole elves situation. I'm sure when lizardmen story comes out, I'll be excited to know what happens again.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:09 pm 
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ArcaneSnow wrote:
I'll be excited to know what happens again.

It said in all new books. Chaos wins, Ned Stark and everybody dies.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:15 pm 
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ArcaneSnow wrote:
Feels like 40k Unbound... I don't play 40k, but watching a couple games of those just makes me never want to touch it.


The unbound armies are fine and fun and made for narrative play and used as such they work great. PEOPLE make them broken and not fun when they are trying to use them to gain advantage. Its the same with allies, Forgeworld Stuff or Lords of War. You might just have been watching a play by people you might not want to play. Its not the game or the rules. Thats why most tourneys dont allow Unbound. Not because of the unbound, but because what people would do with it.

Same will apply for ET IMHO. And I repeat, I believe 9th will tone all this back down. This is Apocalypse. Not normal play.

EDIT: I am starting to toy with a thought that Lizardmen will just somehow transport everyone to another world in the end. But this being true or not, the narrative possibilities after the End Times will be boundless. Even if elven history would say that Teclis sent his soul to Nagash's body and after throwing a little tantrum he went onto setting things right.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:05 pm 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
Because like it or not what draws a lot of people to this game is the story. Knowing you don't like the end could take a lot of the fun out of the fight for those people.


I agree with this. I haven't been able to play many Warhammer games because my group of friends doesn't really like GW, for obvious reasons, price the main one, so the way that I have been going is collecting miniatures and painting them up to fit armies in the fluff, but I like using current fluff, not sending my army back to the War of the Beard. When the current fluff just makes no sense to me and in my opinion ruins the army, it makes it a lot harder to convince myself that I should keep collecting and keep trying to find games. It's not fun to collect and play with an army that you don't like the story for.

Shadeseraph wrote:
more things:

Loremaster:
The loremaster special rule is changed to the following:

A wizard with the loremaster special rule can re-roll all of the dice used to attempt to cast a spell from his chosen lore, including rolls that result in the spell being miscast and/or cast with irresistible force. Thhe lore in question is normally given in brackets as part of the Loremaster special rule. For example, a model with the Loremaster (fire) special rule could re-roll attempts to cast spells from the Lore of Fire.

General:

Spells can be used any number of times in each Magic phase, as long as all previous attempts to cast the spell have been successful. The only exception to this are End Times spells, and any other spell with a casting value of 15+ or more, which can only be selected once each Magic Phase, wither the previous attempt to cast them was successful or not.

Withards never break concentration, and can keep on casting spells as long as dice are left in the power pool. However, a spell still fails if the total of the dice scores is less than 3.

After picking a wizard and declaring which spell you want them to cast, you must roll a D6. THe result of the roll is the maximum number of dice you can use to cast that spell (the minimum number of dice you must use is always one). You must also roll a D6 to see how many dice a Wizard can use to dispel a spell.


EDIT:

The Magic of the End Times rules must be used instead of the rules from the Warhammer rulebook if any of the following conditions apply:

-Magic of the End Times is listed as a special rule for a scenario.
-If either player is fielding an army chosen using an Elven Hosts army list from this book.
-If either player is using a unit from the New Armies and Units section of this book.
-If either player wants to use the Magic of the End Times rules instead of the rules for magic in the Warhammer rulebook.


So. Magic is.......totally wacko. This makes the game SO random! You can only use a d6 of dice to cast or dispel with? Every time you try to cast? This means that magic is going to either desert you right when you need it or give you a crippling phase.

Can you say Mazdamundi, Slann with Focus of Mystery and Tetto'Eko all in one 2400 point list? 3 Loremasters FTW.

This also pretty well breaks some other combos. Can you say multiple Banishments every turn? Or Apotheosis over and over making a character unkillable? Or infinite Invocation of Neheks? Or ultimate Regrowths? Lizardmen will have a field day with the Comet, Pit of Shades will wreck any low-I army, Arcane Unforging will take any super-character and neuter them with one exception: Tyrion.


Also, how has no one brought up the invincible thing that is Malekith the Eternity King? He was WS 8, S6, T6, W10, I8 with ASF, A10, does D3+1 Wounds, can never take more than 1 wound from an attack, has a 3+ armor save, and a 2+ ward against non-magical attacks. How is it even possible to kill this guy? You cannot swarm him with weaker guys or chop out his knee-caps with White Lions like Nagash because of that ward, you simply cannot kill him easily with that T6 and W10, and special magic items won't do a darn thing because of that Armor, oh, and on top off all of that, he has the new schmancy Loremaster of Shadow??? What? How do you kill this guy? Unless you use Arcane Unforging over and over to destroy all of his equipment (actually a viable tactic now), there are only a very select few characters that might have a chance. Tyrion, Avatar of Khaine takes 3 rounds to kill him, and Malekith will kill Tyrion in 2. Malekith will kill Nagash before Nagash gets to attack, he'll kill KFA before KFA gets to attack, I mean this is just brutal. Only a few magic combos have a chance.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:12 pm 
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Malekith's biggest weaknesses are:
1) In his Phoenix King form, his attacks are flaming.
2) In general, he has no ward save against magic or magic items.

The first one means a unit of dragon princes can hold him at bay forever. And that tyrion should have absolutely mulched him despite the rule to ignore multiple wounds.
The second one means that any light council under these magic rules is going to have a field day with him.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:17 pm 
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How is it even possible to kill this guy?

And this I feel as being the biggest problem of WFB. The game is about the kills. There is no possibility to win the game without killing more than your opponent and with every such monster we need to ask "how will we kill it?". Powerful units are those with killing power or staying power. Tactical value is reduced to redirector units and tarpits. If my dreams will come true and next edition will be objective based I hope we will be able to deal with them in another way.

Magic is supposed to be wacko during End Times! Why does it surprise anyone?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:21 pm 
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You guys have to realize that this is a campaign thing in the same way Storm of Magic or Tamurkhan is. Until something makes it into an FAQ or similar it's nothing but. Storm of Magic is insane, I have played a couple of games with it and it just breaks Warhammer 100%.

The problem is if tournaments and regular games start accepting these rules as "basic rules" and not add-ons. Although some are eager to do so now, I doubt it'll last.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:28 pm 
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They FAQ'd the 50% into the rulebook and the Lore of Undeath, do you think this stuff won't be as well?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:47 pm 
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Well, I'm happy to see Imrik, I like his rules and feel that, although he's expensive, his damage output makes up for that. Not especially hard though, but I think that's good.

As for the fluff, well let's just say that it's giving me a load of new ideas on my fanfiction and how it's going to pan out. My army is moving into the world of Inheritance and staying there! I'll never suffer Malekith as King, the blood of Aenarion has never been good for the elves after the daemon wars.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:49 pm 
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Domine Nox wrote:
They FAQ'd the 50% into the rulebook and the Lore of Undeath, do you think this stuff won't be as well?


No

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:49 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
Tyrion, Avatar of Khaine takes 3 rounds to kill him, and Malekith will kill Tyrion in 2.


Phoenix King Malekith's (did I really just type that?) attacks are flaming while Tyrion has a 2+ ward.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:50 pm 
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Domine Nox wrote:
They FAQ'd the 50% into the rulebook and the Lore of Undeath, do you think this stuff won't be as well?


Personally, no I don't.

I think they very purposefully put the wording in there about the conditions under which these magic rules would apply (same with the Daemon rules from the last book).

I'm beginning to get a very serious suspicion that before the End Times is over, either all these new crazy characters will be dead, toned down (de-powered), or the entire campaign wrapped up in such a way that going into 9th we won't even be having these discussions about how to kill KFA (current solution, shove Malekith up his arse) etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:55 pm 
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Please read my post again with special attention to the part where I say Malekith the Eternity King. Phoenix King is easy.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:02 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
Please read my post again with special attention to the part where I say Malekith the Eternity King. Phoenix King is easy.


Remember, though, that under these rules you can spam banishment, Uranon's Thunderbolt, or even Searing doom/Gehenna's Golden Hounds to death. Any of those are bound to give him a hard time.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:05 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
Please read my post again with special attention to the part where I say Malekith the Eternity King. Phoenix King is easy.


Spoiler:
Quote:
You mean the post-Tyrion version?

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Last edited by T.D. on Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:23 pm 
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I see a very different angle to all this than many here I guess.

GW's most successful IP is Space Marines. They work well because with one set of models they can sell nearly limitless armies.

To make that work in Fantasy, you have to get the 15 armies down to smaller groups to create a pool of models to play from. Then, in 9th or beyond, you come out with the formation books like in 40k.

So, I think HEs and DEs and WEs will be back but as formations rather than as independent army books. I think you will see similar with all the othet combo armies from ET.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:27 pm 
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Ptolemy wrote:
So, I think HEs and DEs and WEs will be back but as formations rather than as independent army books. I think you will see similar with all the othet combo armies from ET.


Probable.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:53 pm 
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Ptolemy wrote:
GW's most successful IP is Space Marines. They work well because they are the stereotypical sci-fi bio-engineered human super-warrior that the mainstream loves about this genre.


Fixed your post ;)

On a more serious note, I believe you have a point. I believe Warhammer will converge to fewer factions, with more options. Whether this is a move for better or worse is way too early to tell. At first, it looks like some truly broken combinations will emerge, but over time there are fewer variables to balance against eachother.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:16 am 
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Shadeseraph wrote:
CaledorRises wrote:
Please read my post again with special attention to the part where I say Malekith the Eternity King. Phoenix King is easy.


Remember, though, that under these rules you can spam banishment, Uranon's Thunderbolt, or even Searing doom/Gehenna's Golden Hounds to death. Any of those are bound to give him a hard time.


I did mention Banishment as an option, along with other spells.

T.D. wrote:
CaledorRises wrote:
Please read my post again with special attention to the part where I say Malekith the Eternity King. Phoenix King is easy.


Spoiler:
Quote:
You mean the post-Tyrion version?


The question was never if Tyrion could beat Malekith at the time that they are supposed to fight. The question was, if I am in a standard game and my opponent plops Malekith The Eternity King down on the other side of the table, because frankly, if you have the points, there's no reason to take the Phoenix King, how do I kill him? I don't see anybody really being able to do it, unless you use a powerful magic attack, but then again, unless you are using Nagash or an Elven list yourself, he's going to out-magic you with the powerful Level 5 stupidity (Malekith should not be as good a wizard as Nagash, Teclis, or Alarielle). Just waiting for my First Gen Slann to come out as a Level 7! (please?)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:27 am 
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Why are you trying to kill your King?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:38 am 
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T.D. wrote:
Why are you trying to kill your King?


It's revolution time...... :D


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:52 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Ptolemy wrote:
GW's most successful IP is Space Marines. They work well because they are the stereotypical sci-fi bio-engineered human super-warrior that the mainstream loves about this genre.


Fixed your post ;)

On a more serious note, I believe you have a point. I believe Warhammer will converge to fewer factions, with more options. Whether this is a move for better or worse is way too early to tell. At first, it looks like some truly broken combinations will emerge, but over time there are fewer variables to balance against eachother.


That's such a weird way to sell a game though. I'm a firm believer that GW business model is pretty flawed. Lowering the model count for your existing fan base is a bad idea since there's less things for you to sell to them. On the other hand, having a small pool of figures might be easier to attract new players, but GW's way of pricing things isn't exactly attractive newcomers. Feels like this isn't going to get them anywhere in the long run and only ruin it for those that already play.

...hmm... wonder whats the fantasy equivalent to space marines.. haha

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:53 am 
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:: How to kill: Malekith the Eternity King - a Guide by Olannon ::
- Banishment
- Searing Doom
- More Banishment
- More Searing Doom
- Magical Close Combat Attacks
- Magical Shooting
- More Magical Close Combat Attacks
- More Magical Shooting

Happy hunting!

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