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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:05 am 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
By the way, this is what comes of GW not having a clue about how many books to print.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-End-T ... 2518.l4276

Not saying it's right, but I'd bet it drives more than a few to find a pdf. In theory they'd just pay for the digital one instead, but I'll bet that's not always how that works out.



500 limited edition and whatever there was of the hard covers. I have no use for the current digital version as it is i-pad only, so yeah waiting for an alternative to pop up.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:16 am 
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I didn't realize this digital was i-pad only. umm.....


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:56 am 
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Yeah, they've shot themselves in the foot bigtime with that, since any additional miniature sales they can expect from it are going to be contingent on people being able to get the rules...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:02 am 
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draxynnic wrote:
Yeah, they've shot themselves in the foot bigtime with that, since any additional miniature sales they can expect from it are going to be contingent on people being able to get the rules...


Ja, and it appears to be true that there are no cool new models for me to spend (waste) my money on.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:04 am 
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Isn't everyone saying that there is a soft cover release coming?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:18 am 
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That's the rumors. For all of them. As far as I know though none of the rumors say when.

And lets be honest, how long are people really likely to wait?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:01 am 
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John Rainbow wrote:
Isn't everyone saying that there is a soft cover release coming?


The question is why these idiots can't release all of them at the same time or at worst the limited edition and hard covers a week ahead. There are a million people playing this game and they release 500 copies of the limited edition plus a few thousand hardbacks. There is another game system called dropzone commander with the same model. All of the rules are released in books with no online support at all. What century are these people living in. And lets not discuss the price. I'm old and affluent and even I have no interest in their Aus $200.00 limited edition, and at least release a digital copy so people can change the font so they can read the tiny writing.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:28 am 
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I was in my local gw store yesterday, of course sold out info. :lol: I am glad sooner I will get free PDF copy than get it in gw story, idiots:p

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:40 am 
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John Rainbow wrote:
Isn't everyone saying that there is a soft cover release coming?

They released Nagash and Glottkin softcover with the Khaine book actually. But it is presumably not available on US site now.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/search/searchResults.jsp?qty=com.gamesworkshop.endeca.EndecaUserContext%4065cf3308&sorting=srl&view=table&searchTerm=softback

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:16 am 
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aurynn wrote:
But noone says he is the best or that DE are best all along, do they? If it were so, I would understand the dramatic reaction, but now I feel that your reaction is too extreme and makes you biased even before you read anything but rumours without context. My belief is that none of the speculations made here by all of us are correct as I suspect Caledor is set up for a crucial role and the late kings will have something to say.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:20 am 
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From what I have read, they already fired the guy who grossly underestimated the demand for the books. And as the lead time of prints at GW is 3-6 months, I dont think they can do anything with the current state of things, save for rushing the softcover release, which they are actually doing. I am not saying GW is doing everything right, but calling them idiots is just idiotic. I would like everyone who does that to try and do a better job. :-P

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:43 am 
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aurynn wrote:
From what I have read, they already fired the guy who grossly underestimated the demand for the books. And as the lead time of prints at GW is 3-6 months, I dont think they can do anything with the current state of things, save for rushing the softcover release, which they are actually doing. I am not saying GW is doing everything right, but calling them idiots is just idiotic. I would like everyone who does that to try and do a better job. :-P


Nah, idiots is pretty fair on this one. Take a book that involves a couple of the more popular races, ends a story arc that been going for better than 15 years and under order this badly?

As for what else they could do it's pretty easy. Put out a kindle version same day as the rest of them. That's the truly idiotic part, and will cost them more money. And I'd thought that making money was the one thing they were still good at. They managed to leave a lot of it in people wallets this time.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:08 am 
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You know, running two companies of my own has given me a good perspective. In a company this large you have to trust that people on their posts do their jobs right. And there is no way to be sure that they will. So if the guy responsible for the volume that should be printed says "I expect 500 for online sale and 3000 worldwide to be a good number as it is expensive book and WFB is not doing well". The company goes and orders just that. If you had to doublecheck on every single thing your employees do and decide, you wouldnt do anything else or you would have to have more employees for controlling, which is no guarantee that these things will not happen because even the controllers are just employees. There is only so much a CEO or owner can keep track of... Mistakes do happen and GW is not doing everything wrong. And lastly, do run your own company of this size in a niche market like this one, with customers so opinionated as these and then, and only then, you get to have enough perspective and knowledge to formulate an educated opinion. :-P Until then its just nerdrage.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:28 am 
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There is no rage from me. My group has our copy coming.

It's a failure to understand the market for your own product. That's not good. It's the sort of thing that when repeated puts you out of business or prevents you from growing. It's the sort of mistake that new and improved more profit driven (and before you misunderstand again, that's what they are supposed to be as a business) isn't supposed to make.

But yes people make mistakes, and it's costs their company. It happens. But only for GW will there be defenders saying it's fine. It's a big opportunity lost. I'll bet there are plenty of people at GW who feel like idiots over this. And a couple who are feeling rather smug and saying "I told you so".

But again, why no kindle version? That was a pretty predictable place to get some sales (and maybe pick up some of the ones they lost by not ordering enough of the hard copies). They even managed to figure out a few months ago that not everyone uses apple. Did they suddenly forget?

You may also want to avoid making assumptions about the background of people you are talking to on the internet, but that's a different story.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:55 am 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
There is no rage from me. My group has our copy coming.

It's a failure to understand the market for your own product. That's not good. It's the sort of thing that when repeated puts you out of business or prevents you from growing. It's the sort of mistake that new and improved more profit driven (and before you misunderstand again, that's what they are supposed to be as a business) isn't supposed to make.

But yes people make mistakes, and it's costs their company. It happens. But only for GW will there be defenders saying it's fine. It's a big opportunity lost. I'll bet there are plenty of people at GW who feel like idiots over this. And a couple who are feeling rather smug and saying "I told you so".

But again, why no kindle version? That was a pretty predictable place to get some sales (and maybe pick up some of the ones they lost by not ordering enough of the hard copies). They even managed to figure out a few months ago that not everyone uses apple. Did they suddenly forget?

You may also want to avoid making assumptions about the background of people you are talking to on the internet, but that's a different story.

Forgive me, that "rage" part was not explicitly aimed at you. I happen to believe you being a reasonable fellow. :-)

Yes, GW made a mistake and fired the person responsible. Agree on that paragraph.

Dont the Kindle versions come relatively fast after the original releases? I have absolutely no idea how hard it is to get a kindle book on sale or if there is some priority agreement between GW and Apple. Anything is possible and might be a result of yet another employee mistake. :-)

I tried not to assume anything about anyone. I am not a native english speaker so it might not come out that way for which I apologise. I used the word "you", but meaning was that everyone should look inside themselves if they really do have even some experience and knowledge to express such a very strong opinion as calling someone an idiot. :-) Especially a group of people without knowing next to nothing about how this whole thing came to pass.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:06 am 
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It would have been enough for them to say there is going to be a reprint. Easy enough to do.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:14 am 
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Aicanor wrote:
It would have been enough for them to say there is going to be a reprint. Easy enough to do.


Exactly. And give a date for when it would be available. If your only source of info is the US site you still don't even know that the other two have been printed in soft back yet. They've got enough egg on their faces for "idiots" to be a fairly reasonable term.

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I have absolutely no idea how hard it is to get a kindle book on sale or if there is some priority agreement between GW and Apple. Anything is possible and might be a result of yet another employee mistake.


Depending on how fast you write you (personally) could have one up today. It's a fairly easy process. With something that may sell as many copies as this it's probably a bit more complicated and might even involve lawyers. But it's not like they didn't have any lead time. On s priority agreement; it's possible (probable even given how things are), but that's just another reason to say "idiots".


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:00 pm 
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Sure, sure... All of them... in general... I wont even respond to that.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:45 pm 
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Just got to say we all knew this book was going to sell and sell quickly. I was fortunate enough to take a lunch break and call my local GW to get a copy reserved in time. Can't wait to read the new stories!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:23 pm 
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aurynn wrote:
Sure, sure... All of them... in general... I wont even respond to that.


Well, he's the part that maybe you don't understand. The people people that work for a company represent that company. The higher up they go the more everything they do reflects on the company. So if you have a couple people in charge of fairly big decisions flubbing them up, it makes the company look like idiots. No one (least of all investors) is actually all that interested in the faceless cog that screwed up. They see it as an error by the company, which the the only face they actually see.

So while (obviously) not every GW employee is an idiot, those that made some lousy decisions made then rather visibly. Fair or not it reflects on everyone involved. And those that hired them in the first place have to shoulder some of the responsibility as well.

Incidentally, after Nagash they should have realized they were going to need a few more of this one. I don't know what kind of lead time they are working with, but I'd question my relationship with my supplier if I couldn't get something done.

The other thing I'd hope they've realized is that apparently there are still plenty of WFB fans out there. They've just not been very excited about the products on offer for awhile.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:49 pm 
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@ Shannar, let us stop this discussion. We'd just be going in circles here. I just wish they were more communicative as a company.

PS: Having experienced what it can be like for those people who have responsibility for something in the company but have no real control of it, I feel kind of sorry for the guy they fired.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:46 pm 
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Aicanor wrote:
@ Shannar, let us stop this discussion. We'd just be going in circles here. I just wish they were more communicative as a company.

PS: Having experienced what it can be like for those people who have responsibility for something in the company but have no real control of it, I feel kind of sorry for the guy they fired.


Honestly I do too. And his boss/whoever decided to bring him in as well, as they will take a prestige hit if nothing else. But that hurts come promotion/raise time. But everyone needs scapegoat right?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:03 am 
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How is it profitable to pay a writer, create art, spend development time, and create templates, etc, copy edit, do everything that goes into making a book happen, to only print 3500 copies? Those numbers can't be right. If they only intended to sell that many, they wouldn't have undertaken the development process in the first place.

Assume a 50-page book takes 300 man-hours to write. Then another 300 man-hours for artwork, plus another 300 man-hours for editing and layout, inking, whatever else (I have no idea how to make books, just making this shit up. But I do own two small businesses myself). You're already at 900+ labor hours to create this thing. At $30 an hour, that's $27,000 in labor. Add another three thousand for rent and materials.

Each copy sells for US $50. Assume GW makes $10 on each copy. That's $35,000 gross profit, minus $30,000 in labor/etc. Oh, I guess it's profitable after all. I suppose when you own an IP as valuable as WHFB, you can make poor business guesses and still come out in the black.

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Last edited by Nicene on Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:15 am 
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Can we as a community try to take a step back and chill until we actually see the rules? Or the fluff for that matter? The only solid info we have is the WD which is a tiny snippet of the book. People are freaking out about a story we haven't seen and broken army combinations we don't know are possible. Seems silly to get all up in arms about things we actually don't know yet.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:39 am 
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Nobody is panicking. It is natural to try and predict where these changes are going to take us. Not so long time ago the rumors about combined Elven armies were labeled as impossible. Not so long time ago people believed ET is just a campaign but shortly after the release of part 1 they also published FAQ allowing 50% characters in regular warhammer.

No, we don't know the big picture yet. But if something that was considered impossible has just happened it is also natural to think about other rumors that appeared in the meantime. What if it is true that warhammer is indeed going to be totally reset and 9th edition will be turned into skirmish game? What if it is true that GW is simply trying to increase the sales in short term to be sold soon after?

I think it is natural that facing such dramatic changes people wonder if it is worthy investing more time and money into a game that might not be what they want to play in a few months. And simply considering such possibility does not mean the sky is falling. But if that is going to be the case and warhammer is going to turn into a skirmish game I would rather spend the following months in trying to find the game I like to play.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:48 am 
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If they release a post ET skirmish version, I very much doubt they are going to invalidate eight edition. It makes no sense to have the models, the newly printed books and not use it. Then they will have their 'Mordheim', Escalation and regular battles all available.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:56 am 
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I certainly hope they are not going to invalidate 8th edition if there is Warhammer Skirmish game out there.

I am simply saying that there were things considered impossible or not reasonable but they did happen. GW does things for a reason. Their reason. It does not have to make sense to players.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:18 am 
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I dont think we will end up as Skirmish game. I am expecting less hordes, more tactic but not to the point of 20 models on each side.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:24 am 
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aurynn wrote:
I dont think we will end up as Skirmish game. I am expecting less hordes, more tactic but not to the point of 20 models on each side.

I'm not sure yet. If I were GW, I would create 3 branches of WH, which share a same basis but slightly different characteristics.

One would be regular BRB warhammer. This forms the basis of the game.

One would be the End Times variant. Over the top characters, bring whatever you like and smash huge armies together with big magic.

The last one would be a smaller scale game. Slightly bigger in size then Mordheim, but 250 - 1000 points in units. Something between Mordheim and BRB warhammer. There used to be warband rules for these kind of armies. Why not do something like that again...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:49 am 
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That's pretty much what I'm thinking...

As I understand it, one of the reasons 40K is more popular than WHF is because it has a lower barrier of entry. 40K is something that you can play in the range of 500 points a side, possibly even less, and it still works, so it's easier to get into. Once you're in, it then becomes easier to add another 500, then another, than another...

Now, imagine trying to play a 500-a-side WHF battle. Your general could easily be 100 or so of that on his (or her) own. If you're a High Elf player, then Martial Prowess won't ever come into play unless you're willing to dump 150 points into a single unit off basic troopers alone. You could easily fill out 500 points off a single close combat unit, a bolt thrower, and maybe some archers or chaff. Doesn't really sound like a fun game to me - instead people need to make a bigger investment to make the game actually viable, which means a bigger barrier to entry.

Now, a skirmish ruleset drawing from the same set of miniatures (unlike Mordheim) would allow WHF's miniatures set to give players a low barrier to entry when they're still at the stage of only having a couple of dozen miniatures, with the avenue open to progress to the clash of armies as their collection grows.


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