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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:09 pm 
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aurynn wrote:
Also interesting is that I have not seen such a strong nerdrage on Druchii and Asrai forums. I wonder... :-)


My nerdrage is pretty damn strong at the moment with the possibility of Dark Elves being folded into High Elves for 9th. If I had wanted to collect and fluff-sculpt a High Elven army ....I would have chosen High Elves #-o

The only thing keeping me going is the fact that Malekith is finally the ruler of Ulthuan =D> If it was the other way round and the Everqueen had taken over Naggaroth I'd be pretty pissed :evil: :P

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:13 pm 
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And lastly the mighty bulwark against daemons armed with his circlet of power has a daemon as a general( t'zarkan )in his midst and doesn't know! Budabing!!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:14 pm 
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Shadeseraph wrote:
Ok, I'll try to make it short:

I hate Malekith. As a character, as a background piece, as almost everything. Even more so, because every **** dark elf player seems to derive pleasure on boasting how cool and badass he is and how everyone (especially high elves) should bow to him.

So yeah, nerdrage at its purest.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:21 pm 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
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Also interesting is that I have not seen such a strong nerdrage on Druchii and Asrai forums. I wonder... :-)


Well sure. Suddenly they were the only good guys the entire time. Nor does their character suddenly change personality or do anything inconsistent. What is there to be upset about?

You cant mean this seriously. :-) For one, I havent seen a single post there that would suggest that attitude (about feeling they are the good guys), maybe only as a jest. For two every society, even DE one has shades. I bet there are quite a few HE that are really really bad. And quite a few DE that are actually at least tolerable.

If the idea is for DE/HE/WE to join forces because the evolution of the ruleset, a DE leader is needed that would bring the DE part to the fold. Malekith is in my opinion the best choice. Cant imagine any of the others doing this. Definitelly better than killing Malekith and conjuring up his son out of nothing (for the blood of Aenarion).

@Tech less: You havent read the book and are making assumptions of what is written in the book based on nothing but rumour and speculations. Not mentioning that some of the connections you are making are wrong. Like Teclis and Asuryan. Who said he has anything to do with Asuryan? He is in league with Lileath.

@T.D.: hehe, good one. :-D

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:25 pm 
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Nah, ask any Dark Elf player. All of the Phoenix kings since Mal got crisped were place holders for his inevitable return, and the war with the dwaves was a high spirited misunderstanding that should be easy to fix if someone says sorry. That is what i took away from the DE novels that were doing the rounds a few years ago. Basically its all Moranthi's fault, and Mal is just a misunderstood nice guy with an iron crown that makes him do bad things. If Ulthuan had just accepted him as phoenix king all those years ago none of this would have happened. Thank you Gav for secretly supporting Mal though his trials and showing those poofy elves who is really in charge.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:26 pm 
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The 'ancient lie' sounds about as true to me as when it used to be truth before. I do not mind this turn of events as a player too much, my House though is not going to join either Tyrion nor Malekith. They just can't... unless there is more we do not yet know. Waiting for the book before final judgement.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:28 pm 
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Aicanor wrote:
The 'ancient lie' sounds about as true to me as when it used to be truth before. I do not mind this turn of events as a player too much, my House though is not going to join either Tyrion nor Malekith. They just can't... unless there is more we do not yet know. Waiting for the book before final judgement.


Mine's on the coast of Araby and is made up of druchii and high elves. I don't care who wins as it can only improve my army list.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:31 pm 
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High Elf fans here are looking at Malekith from the wrong perspective. Their first obligation is not to destroy the DE but to stop chaos. Its been that from the very beginning. If Malekith is the man to do it than so be it. It doesn't mean he's forgiven but if he's the best leader for the elven race than he is.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:44 pm 
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Well, I'll reserve final judgment until the book comes out. But based on these rumors, it certainly comes across as a big "eff-you" to HE collectors and players.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:52 pm 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
High Elf fans here are looking at Malekith from the wrong perspective. Their first obligation is not to destroy the DE but to stop chaos. Its been that from the very beginning. If Malekith is the man to do it than so be it. It doesn't mean he's forgiven but if he's the best leader for the elven race than he is.


+1, although I would say that High Elves first obligation is stopping chaos and not some petty bickering. :-)
And to those who have something against the idea of Morathi being the bad influence together with the Iron Circlet I say: "why the hell not?". As good plot as any.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:56 pm 
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It's sad that so many people are upset about this. Personally though, the fluff never really did it for me anyway.

More concerned about how much of the rules makes it into tournament play.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:09 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
It's sad that so many people are upset about this. Personally though, the fluff never really did it for me anyway.

More concerned about how much of the rules makes it into tournament play.

I dont think that THAT many people are upset. But as usual, those who are content do not raise voices.

Do you think that ET will make it into tournament play?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:13 pm 
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Rabidnid wrote:
Aicanor wrote:
The 'ancient lie' sounds about as true to me as when it used to be truth before. I do not mind this turn of events as a player too much, my House though is not going to join either Tyrion nor Malekith. They just can't... unless there is more we do not yet know. Waiting for the book before final judgement.


Mine's on the coast of Araby and is made up of druchii and high elves. I don't care who wins as it can only improve my army list.

Not as easy to do in Saphery. :D Fighting Chaos alongside DE if need be, yes. But give fealty to Malekith and what he stands for? No. It is still us who create our own stories. GW is just giving us background to set them in (or not) and people to enjoy them with.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:17 pm 
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Im just gonna wait and see what the story will be.
Hopefully it will not be as badly written as glottkin.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:46 pm 
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All these people crying doom all of a sudden, one question: do you hate Star Wars?

Because this whole new development is essentially a proxy of the fall and ultimate redemption of Vader(Malekith being Vader). The point in the story were at now is when you realize Vader is lukes father. The story doesn't come full circle until Vader dies saving luke/defeating the emperor. Hopefully Malekith has that sacrifice/redemption moment as well when he drags nagash and the chaos gods into the Death Star reactor.

When I read the sundering books, my main reaction was sadness, it was tragic what happened to the elves and Malekith most of all. Manipulated by those closest to him, cursed by a decision his father made, he made a series of bad calls and became a monster.

There's a vignette from the curse of khaine sample on iTunes that speaks volumes. Malekith was the war leader the elves should have followed to finally expunge Chaos once and for all, instead they feared the return of Aenerion through Malekith and chose Bel Shannar. So we got 6000 years of bloodshed and the ETimes because of that decision. Don't know about you, but I think they made the wrong call. If all our value as high elves is founded on that lie the a rent we as much to blame for the civil war as malekith? It takes two to tango.

I'm ok with Malekith being redeemed, I'm ok with Tyrion succumbing to Aenerions curse and most important I want the elves to save the day again.

My Caledorian army is founded on hating the Beastmasters of Karond Kar for trying to steal dragon eggs, I'm sure I can find a story arc that brings me around to the new state of affairs.

Did everyone honestly want the fluff to stay the same forever? Sorry to rant, but I still think this all going pretty well and when Imrik takes his rightful place as Phoenix King after malekith/nagash die defeating the chaos gods everything will go back to the way it should be. The Dragonlords rule over all!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:00 pm 
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Man, you just have to read my mind. Just watching Return of the Jedi and had totally the same thought. :-)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:02 pm 
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Malekith being Vader


Did I miss movie where he's suddenly the leader of the rebel armies?

That's the issue. Tyriion drawing the sword and having to be put down? Could be a good story. It'll probably be rather dull, the corrupted hero angle is hardly groundbreaking. Malekith somehow being redeemed and saving all the elves in the process? Probably a required part if his story is to be any good at all.

But the part where everyone just says "you know what, forget the centuries of bloodshed, constant invasions, etc all because you lust for personal power. You really were the best of us all along." doesn't work.

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Definitelly better than killing Malekith and conjuring up his son out of nothing (for the blood of Aenarion).


Why do they need the blood of Aenarion at all? Kill off the line and add to the tragedy/redemption angle of that story as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:29 pm 
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But noone says he is the best or that DE are best all along, do they? If it were so, I would understand the dramatic reaction, but now I feel that your reaction is too extreme and makes you biased even before you read anything but rumours without context. My belief is that none of the speculations made here by all of us are correct as I suspect Caledor is set up for a crucial role and the late kings will have something to say.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:45 pm 
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Aurynn: I think you hit upon it exactly. (For me at least) This reaction is in part due to that it seems what has been revealed indicates that ET Khaine will be a story of Malekith's vindication and not redemption (which I would welcome). As you point out, however, this is all rumor, speculation, and leaks without context. We will have to wait and see. ... Well that seems to be 3 post every 11 month limit. :wink: thank you again Ulthuan contributors.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:47 pm 
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aurynn wrote:
But noone says he is the best or that DE are best all along, do they? If it were so, I would understand the dramatic reaction, but now I feel that your reaction is too extreme and makes you biased even before you read anything but rumours without context. My belief is that none of the speculations made here by all of us are correct as I suspect Caledor is set up for a crucial role and the late kings will have something to say.


From what we have to read the entire premise is that Malakath was the "rightful" king all along, and that none of his "poor decisions" matter at all. And we 100% know that he's going to be leading one of the factions, and the one that's closer to "good" at that. The only action strong enough to redeem himself would have to involve him sacrificing himself (like vader actually). It's rather hard to lead an army after that...


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:03 pm 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
aurynn wrote:
But noone says he is the best or that DE are best all along, do they? If it were so, I would understand the dramatic reaction, but now I feel that your reaction is too extreme and makes you biased even before you read anything but rumours without context. My belief is that none of the speculations made here by all of us are correct as I suspect Caledor is set up for a crucial role and the late kings will have something to say.


From what we have to read the entire premise is that Malakath was the "rightful" king all along, and that none of his "poor decisions" matter at all. And we 100% know that he's going to be leading one of the factions, and the one that's closer to "good" at that. The only action strong enough to redeem himself would have to involve him sacrificing himself (like vader actually). It's rather hard to lead an army after that...
All it says is that if Malekith was chosen as the king, the Chaos would be perhaps kept at bay. It says nothing about it being a good place to live. Just a place relatively safe from Chaos gods.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:12 pm 
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Aicanor wrote:
Shannar, Sealord wrote:
aurynn wrote:
But noone says he is the best or that DE are best all along, do they? If it were so, I would understand the dramatic reaction, but now I feel that your reaction is too extreme and makes you biased even before you read anything but rumours without context. My belief is that none of the speculations made here by all of us are correct as I suspect Caledor is set up for a crucial role and the late kings will have something to say.


From what we have to read the entire premise is that Malakath was the "rightful" king all along, and that none of his "poor decisions" matter at all. And we 100% know that he's going to be leading one of the factions, and the one that's closer to "good" at that. The only action strong enough to redeem himself would have to involve him sacrificing himself (like vader actually). It's rather hard to lead an army after that...
All it says is that if Malekith was chosen as the king, the Chaos would be perhaps kept at bay. It says nothing about it being a good place to live. Just a place relatively safe from Chaos gods.


Right, but in what reasonable fashion do you bring it about at all? Without better writing and imagination than I've EVER (let alone recently) seen from GW it's a bridge to far. The awfulness that was glotkin does not make me more optimistic.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:14 pm 
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No. Correct me if I am wrong, but we know he leads an army during the conflict. Have not seen a rumour suggesting he leads an army after. :-) But even if... Malekith is and ever was a rightful successor to the Phoenix Throne by blood and right. He was denied that for reasons that might be good or bad. 6000 years and elven wars do not change anything on that claim. Noone can deny Tyrion's claim and therefore Malekith's claim cannot be denied either. In addition elves accepted the fact that their kings are not exactly their choosing but the god(s)'. Crying foul now when the choice isnt to everyone's liking is ... ehm... not exactly fair.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:20 pm 
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No. Correct me if I am wrong, but we know he leads an army during the conflict.


An army with a lot of High Elves in it. That's the point. How do you make that happen prior to redemption?

I think it might be cool if he ends up being the one to unite the elves, and become the greatest elven hero of all time (but again, that level of redemption will require him knowingly going to his death, and giving up what he's desired). But I don't see how you get large numbers of high elves to decide that they have no one else worthy to lead them prior to that act.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:26 pm 
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Let's reserve this thread for news and rumours and take the fluff discussion here :http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67601

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:43 pm 
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Good point, Aicanor, moving myself. :-)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:49 pm 
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For all these years I thought Malekith had been punished by the flames and ultimately were rejected due to being a treacherous, serpentine bastard by sneakily bringing weapons into a sacred Elysium kind of place where weapons and bloodshed is forbidden and committed murder on unarmed elves out of frustration that he wasn't elected. All the Princes who were killed that day were unarmed because they did what was honorable and respected the sanctity of Asuryan's Shrine. So, lemme get this straight, the Creator Deity of the Elves (Psychic Warp Entity just like the Chaos Gods) only criteria for accepting an Elf as being a worthy ruler in his name is just "enduring", "giving in" and nothing else? The fact that he sneaked in weapons to a sacred place where this has been agreed upon to be forbidden and then murdering unarmed noble elves which is just a cowardly and treacherous act means nothing to Asuryan, he couldn't care less about the "purity/nobility of soul" or any other transcendental virtue? The Creator God approves of a DOG-EAT-DOG kind of disgusting order of life in which if you're the strong guy and can just kill/maim/remove the other guy in any way possible you are the winnarz? What?!?

I've never been a huge fan of WHFB fluff, sure it's cute and I enjoyed it in a *minimalistic* kind of way ever since playing "Shadow of the Horned Rat" back in the early 90's. It's mediocre as far as fantasy lit goes, it's nowhere near Black Company, Malazan Book of the Fallen or Jack Vance's Dying Earth or Lyonesse levels of fantasy lit greatness but I still think that whoever wrote all of this was exactly qualified for it, didn't understand or respect the material at hand and just thought "HEY; WOULDN'T IT BE COOL IF.... (insert all kinds of try-hard ridiculous stuff here)" just to "shake things up" in his limited vision.

Also, lol at only Finubar realizing that he is being sabotaged by Asuryan or whatever. Phoenix Kings who were Sapherian High Loremasters with a far greater intellect and wisdom stat (in RPG terms) and a far greater understanding of interpreting the Arcane nature of such dreams due to being masterful Wizards couldn't figure out what was happening to them? Also, didn't Bel-Korhadris die peacefully after living up to old age by Elven standards and done great deeds right to the end like building the White Tower and didn't seem to be sabotaged by Asuryan's dreams? On one hand we have him and on the other we have that mad dog Caledor II... Some dudes were just immune to the maddening dreams? This is just sloppy work for Gav Thorpe or whichever hack of a writer that came up with the fluff in End Times:Khaine.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:59 pm 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
From what we have to read the entire premise is that Malakath was the "rightful" king all along, and that none of his "poor decisions" matter at all. And we 100% know that he's going to be leading one of the factions, and the one that's closer to "good" at that. The only action strong enough to redeem himself would have to involve him sacrificing himself (like vader actually). It's rather hard to lead an army after that...



What poor decisions? He has always been the rightful king, so everything the high elves has done since has been wrong. The point was made (by Thorpe in the Malekith book) that a prospective phoenix king can only survive the flames by being shields from the flames by a crowd of mages which Malekith declined, so every phoenix king since Malekith has been a fraud, the entire leadership of the high elves has been a fraud and the High elves have grounds to be pissed with their leadership and see the (slightly crisped) integrity of Malekith in a new light. So murdering said nobles is obviously not much of a crime in this case. Ulthuan has always been the weak and dying culture, while the Druchii can swamp anything in a tide of boobs and naked thighs, which implies their culture is maintaining a brisk birthrate if nothing else. There has always been a thread of nobility in Malekith that is lacking in the phoenix kings, this has been coming for a long time and is not unexpected by the dark elf players at least.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:48 am 
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Right, and the bits about sinking half the island and turning to deamons for help are just solid thinking that anyone who's been slighted would do.

I'm not saying it's unexpected, I've familiar enough with Thorpes works that's I've been expecting something like this since 6e. I'm just saying it takes an awful strange world view for all that to be reasonable. Some of the bits about his mommy making him do it don't really help him either though.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:57 am 
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By the way, this is what comes of GW not having a clue about how many books to print.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-End-T ... 2518.l4276

Not saying it's right, but I'd bet it drives more than a few to find a pdf. In theory they'd just pay for the digital one instead, but I'll bet that's not always how that works out.


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