Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

[HERO]

I'm getting pretty exited about the whole thing to be honest.

From what I gather, The End Times is intended as a separate supplement to Warhammer. It is an extra set of scenarios with extra characters, rules etc. It also looks like it has a bit more to it then Storm of Magic did. They even gave the thing a separate logo. In that sense it feels more like what I expect 40K apocalypse to be like. Same core principles, just different ways of creating armies, different victory conditions and a different way to set up and play the game.

Do I think it will have an impact on mainstream tournament WH? No, none at all. Except for maybe allowing a new armylist in the Undead Legion. Other then that, I don't expect tournaments to suddenly change.

What I do think is that it will give a nice change from normal WH. Ever wanted to put 4 dragons on the table? Well, now it might just be possible (depending on core restrictions etc of course). Will it be optimal? Probably not. Fun? Definitely.

As a side note, if they do decide to merge prince and SD stats then the thing will be absolutely brutal. It will have virtually no weaknesses. Flying, ASF, WS7, S7, T7, I8, W10, A10, LD10, 3+ AS, 2+ ward vs fire before you start adding magic items? All the usual suspects don't work. No low I or S to take advantage of. High speed. And if you can still give the thing armour and magic items etc (and they affect the whole model), you can create some truly horrendous creations. You can easily have two of them in your army, give them a 4+ ward, 1+ armour save. They take something like 8 cannonshots to take down. Good luck with that. And then, you want extra attacks? Rerolling wardsaves? S8-10?

Also, the comparison to WL isn't completely accurate. Yes, you get 48 WL, but you are missing ASF, WS7, S7, T7, I8, flying. WL hit the dragon on 4+, wound on 5+ and have to get through a 4+ armour and 4+ ward save. That is 1 in 24 attacks dealing a wound. Or you need 240 WL attacks to kill something like that. On the other hand, the SD (with armour of destiny, sword of strife and dragonbane gem) with 12 attacks does 14 wounds (if you include thunderstomp and breathweapon). Yes, the lions are stubborn, but that is a huge difference in damage output.

Even more so because the SD has one more advantage over the WL, and that is force concentration. The SD can hit pretty much anything on the table it wants on a very small frontage. Just imagine what 3 dragons can do barreling into a unit (2 SD and 1 dragon mage). Or perhaps 2 and a frostphoenix (incidently, with a frosty in the mix, the WL would need about 700 attacks to kill the SD/prince combo).

Rod

I'm going to agree with this.

I mean, come on, this is my first post in a very long time on this forum. The End Times are coming and I'm home again.

Edit: Actually, it's really been quite sad over here for WHFB. The meta has completely died in my area, no one is really playing WHFB or even much 40K. Everyone has made a full transition to X-Wing, Warmahordes or some other game. After working a couple of months on OT, we finally released Diablo 3: Reaper of Souls on console, but there's not much movement on the high-fantasy side of things. The only meta I really have now is on UniversalBattle, and I haven't been on that in ages.

I want to get back into playing the game, but it's getting harder and harder to get something going.

[RogueSun]

I am obviously interested in that "unexpected" leadership part I wonder if that is somebody totally new or somebody we know very well. The fact that HE and DE are united for the very first time is mind blowing already. I can only imagine that there is one person who can unite the Elves - Aenarion.

I'm going to vote for Imrik. I know it's strange but hear me out. He was phased out of the last two books even though he was a very popular character. He also commands the most powerful military force in Ulthuan (Caledor) and he has extremely strong ties to Dragons. Seeing as this is the End Times, I imagine this would be a good time for GW to have the Dragons start waking up. When that happens, Imrik can rally them to the aid of all elves (explaining the supposed alliance - to defeat Daemons we need all the dragons we can get and the Dark Elves have a lot of them). It also gives GW a chance to make a big ole' model they can sell for lots of money ala Nagash. Aenarion just feels like a cop out to me, especially since that would put the whole line of Phoenix Kings into turmoil.

[Prince of Spires]

Sounds like a good call. End Times = Dragons. And I would definitely get a big kick-ass dragon on a 10-15 base (it looks like the arachnarok base in the photo's at least) with imrik on top, even if he is 85,- euros like Nagash. Even if I never use him in a game and only paint him up I would get the model if it is as great as some of the other recent releases.

Rod

[Curu Olannon]

This forum needs a like button +10000 to Rod`s long post.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

From today's entrance on GW website:

You thought the war in the north would go on for all eternity. You thought the year 2522 would never end. You were wrong. The Dark Gods have made their move to claim the world. The die, as they say, has been cast. Nagash, powerful as he is, is just one of the players in this game, among them Archaon, the Lord of the End Times. Many others have yet to reveal themselves.

I really like the fact that Nagash or even Archaon are not the only players in the game of Dark Gods. The two examples of the artwork make me want to get the first part of the campaign already. The promise to read many things in the book about the whole new situation in warhammer world is exciting and the temptation is hard to resist!

With many great heroes dead, entire world in turmoil like never before and the situation which is not so black and white as it used to be, from the pure background point of view it is exciting time indeed.

[SpellArcher]

There is a definite contrast here. For example the UK tourney scene is bigger than it's ever been. But HERO's experience reflects the falling sales of Warhammer and GW had to do something. I hope it will sell and convince them to keep supporting the game. As said, there may be some knock-on effect for tournaments (maybe some will use all the rules) but overall this looks like a garagehammer game. Something to get out when you feel like a bit of awesomeness! I just can't afford £50 straight off but in time I'll probably buy it.

The thing that bothers me is the killing off of characters etc. so guys who always led their armies with a favourite character for example are left high and dry. I guess if they move things on so decisively this has to happen but something is lost as well as gained. Sometimes less is more. In a normal army a Star Dragon is an awesome thing but if every army has three of them, are they so special anymore?

"That was a good kip. Now for a nice cup of tea. What do you mean these Chaos johnnies have drunk it all? I can't be having with that. Arkhan, where's my giant sword?"

[Galharen]

Well GW has already done their job by canceling part of the history. Eltharion miraculously regained sight, so what - history is going on or back?
I don't mind killing characters, but as SpellArcher said - "something is lost as well as gained" - which means that they should bring some new heroes and let those still leaving to their role in saving the ulthuan Since 5th edition we are reading about battle of finuval plain and everybody know that story by heart. Why not bringing something new?

I'm still waiting for little dragons - that unit has so much potential, hobbistic as well as economic.

[Galharen]

sorry for double post

But I think that the Sword of Khaine will play a particular role in this End of time campaign

[Truthiness]

I'm getting pretty exited about the whole thing to be honest.

From what I gather, The End Times is intended as a separate supplement to Warhammer. It is an extra set of scenarios with extra characters, rules etc. It also looks like it has a bit more to it then Storm of Magic did. They even gave the thing a separate logo. In that sense it feels more like what I expect 40K apocalypse to be like. Same core principles, just different ways of creating armies, different victory conditions and a different way to set up and play the game.

Do I think it will have an impact on mainstream tournament WH? No, none at all. Except for maybe allowing a new armylist in the Undead Legion. Other then that, I don't expect tournaments to suddenly change.

What I do think is that it will give a nice change from normal WH. Ever wanted to put 4 dragons on the table? Well, now it might just be possible (depending on core restrictions etc of course). Will it be optimal? Probably not. Fun? Definitely.

As a side note, if they do decide to merge prince and SD stats then the thing will be absolutely brutal. It will have virtually no weaknesses. Flying, ASF, WS7, S7, T7, I8, W10, A10, LD10, 3+ AS, 2+ ward vs fire before you start adding magic items? All the usual suspects don't work. No low I or S to take advantage of. High speed. And if you can still give the thing armour and magic items etc (and they affect the whole model), you can create some truly horrendous creations. You can easily have two of them in your army, give them a 4+ ward, 1+ armour save. They take something like 8 cannonshots to take down. Good luck with that. And then, you want extra attacks? Rerolling wardsaves? S8-10?

Also, the comparison to WL isn't completely accurate. Yes, you get 48 WL, but you are missing ASF, WS7, S7, T7, I8, flying. WL hit the dragon on 4+, wound on 5+ and have to get through a 4+ armour and 4+ ward save. That is 1 in 24 attacks dealing a wound. Or you need 240 WL attacks to kill something like that. On the other hand, the SD (with armour of destiny, sword of strife and dragonbane gem) with 12 attacks does 14 wounds (if you include thunderstomp and breathweapon). Yes, the lions are stubborn, but that is a huge difference in damage output.

Even more so because the SD has one more advantage over the WL, and that is force concentration. The SD can hit pretty much anything on the table it wants on a very small frontage. Just imagine what 3 dragons can do barreling into a unit (2 SD and 1 dragon mage). Or perhaps 2 and a frostphoenix (incidently, with a frosty in the mix, the WL would need about 700 attacks to kill the SD/prince combo).

Rod

Not to nitpick, but the max attacks you can get is 10 unless you have an exception like mannfred (which may be coming for everyone anyway) and the best armor save I've been able to achieve is a 2+ (please enlighten me on getting to 1+).

Don't get me wrong, I'm all aboard the dragon train. I'm playing devil's advocate in order to preemptively counter the "ZOMG OP!!!!!!" crying that is likely to accompany merged stat lines on our Star Dragon. Next to a tzeentch chaos dragon, our guy is going to be the hardest to kill and will pack the biggest punch. I'm not going to revel in something without a counter. It just ruins the game for everyone. Instead, I'm trying to see why it's not broken.

The hard counter for ridden monsters, namely cannons, will remain a hard counter. It will take a little more than now yes, but I also fully expect so see 3 cannons in every single dwarf and empire army with these rules. 360 points could still take down a dragon in one turn. The viables are just way to high to claim it will always take 8 shots. It can take as little as 2 and the rolling would only have to be a little above average for him and a little below average for you. And if you're going double dragon, you damned well better expect double steam tank. That's a lot of cannon shots for less points than your Dragons.

Either way, merged stat lines or not, the double Dragon list must be done. Even a triple dragon list with a dragon mage is very tempting for the lolz (wait...did this guy just become VIABLE with merged stat lines?!?!?!). It's the freaking end times and it's time for the dragons to awaken.

[Prince of Spires]

I would definitely try a 3 dragon list just for kicks. It's gonna be fun.

You're probably right about the max 10 attacks, though I have no idea how the characteristics max and the +A swords combine in such a situation. I don't generally use the +A swords or have something with 10 attacks on the profile... It matters a wound and a bit in the total, so you get 13 instead of 14.3 wounds. Still a lot.

As for the armour and ward saves, it depends on how the profiles are combined. But assuming you just add up stuff, then a Star Dragon has a 3+ Scaly Skin save. Scaly skin can be combined with normal armour. So add in the armour of Destiny and you have a 1+ armour, 4+ ward save (add in the dragonbane gem for the fire protection). Or the standard light armour of the prince, dragon helm and talisman of preservation. Leaves plenty magic item room for nice extras. Especially since you have the base S7 from the dragon and so don't need to add extra S to make the prince viable in combat.

If it is only the best AS of both models you could always armour of caledor + talisman of preservation for a 2+ 4++. Still pretty sweet with T7.

And with the 4+ ward in the picture and 10 wounds, cannons are much less a hard counter. Note that I never claimed it will always takes 8 shots. Theoretically 2 cannons can kill the thing, in the same way as 10 archer can kill it. On the other hand, the cannons can also just miss all game. Cannons still roll to actually hit the model (even if you get a reroll in there), you still need to wound (1 in 6 still fails) and then there is a 4+ ward save which discounts half the D6 wounds and a 2+ vs fire which takes care of many of the nastier cannons. Assuming a non-flaming cannon which always hits, you deal on average 1.46 wounds per shot. Which means you need 7 cannon shots to kill it on average. If you factor in that you can actually not hit with a cannon, then you go over 8 on average. And 2 shotting the thing is just not that likely.

As for empire/dwarves taking more cannons, not sure if that is always an option. Simply because there will still be "normal" armylists. And more cannons simply means those lists will have an easier time.

Is it completely unbeatable? Nope, just really very bloody hard. High T, high W models with high armour and a wardsave are very hard to deal with in this game (as indicated by the 240 WL attacks needed to kill the combo). Other then something like mindrazored horded spearmen with LD 10, I wouldn't put my money on a lot of things to take it down.

As for the dragon mage, a merged profile is just what the guy needs. T5, 7W, 6A @S5 and a mage would be awsome. If armour combines even more. Add dragon armour for a 1+ and then either a ward making you very durable or go starlance. 6 ASF attacks @S8, from a noble? Yes please...

Rod

[Domine Nox]

If this truly is the End Times, and Chaos is coming at full force like they haven't for thousands of years, then perhaps the unexpected leadership is Caledor and his lot ending the Vortex and returning to current events as the stop gap they created has failed. Just a thought.

[Truthiness]

You're probably right about the max 10 attacks, though I have no idea how the characteristics max and the +A swords combine in such a situation. I don't generally use the +A swords or have something with 10 attacks on the profile... It matters a wound and a bit in the total, so you get 13 instead of 14.3 wounds. Still a lot.

As for the armour and ward saves, it depends on how the profiles are combined. But assuming you just add up stuff, then a Star Dragon has a 3+ Scaly Skin save. Scaly skin can be combined with normal armour. So add in the armour of Destiny and you have a 1+ armour, 4+ ward save (add in the dragonbane gem for the fire protection). Or the standard light armour of the prince, dragon helm and talisman of preservation. Leaves plenty magic item room for nice extras. Especially since you have the base S7 from the dragon and so don't need to add extra S to make the prince viable in combat.

If it is only the best AS of both models you could always armour of caledor + talisman of preservation for a 2+ 4++. Still pretty sweet with T7.

Not a big deal really, hence why I called it nitpicking. It's minor stuff that doesn't make that much of a difference. From what I've translated from the Spanish leaks, it looks like it's the rider's armor save that counts, and it's generated the same way as it always has been (+1 for mounted). As for attacks, 10 attacks at a base strength of 7 is still an unbelievable number of high strength attacks, especially combined with thunderstomp. That's some major pwnage.

And with the 4+ ward in the picture and 10 wounds, cannons are much less a hard counter. Note that I never claimed it will always takes 8 shots. Theoretically 2 cannons can kill the thing, in the same way as 10 archer can kill it. On the other hand, the cannons can also just miss all game. Cannons still roll to actually hit the model (even if you get a reroll in there), you still need to wound (1 in 6 still fails) and then there is a 4+ ward save which discounts half the D6 wounds and a 2+ vs fire which takes care of many of the nastier cannons. Assuming a non-flaming cannon which always hits, you deal on average 1.46 wounds per shot. Which means you need 7 cannon shots to kill it on average. If you factor in that you can actually not hit with a cannon, then you go over 8 on average. And 2 shotting the thing is just not that likely.

Likely, no, but it's not that far fetched of a possibility. The variables are just so large: 1/6 initial misfire, 1/6 misfire on bounce assuming you didn't land on the dragon, 1/6 don't wound. Ack that's a lot of 1/6s! The ward save is even more frustrating for doing statistics because you have a 50/50 shot of avoiding any damage altogether. But if you fail that ward save, it's anywhere form 1-6 wounds. I know my luck. I almost never pass single 4+ ward save for some reason. My Dragon is going to be able to take about 3 cannon shots max before I go down =(

As for empire/dwarves taking more cannons, not sure if that is always an option. Simply because there will still be "normal" armylists. And more cannons simply means those lists will have an easier time.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I've played Empire (damned military movers lost the army...), so I know how bad a monster can wreck your day if you don't plan for countering it. There are two scenarios possible. 1) I'm playing end times and I see that 50% lord allotment and those new Mortarchs. Yup, I'm grabbing at least 3 cannons. The points cost isn't bad and it can potentially return around double the investment. 2) It's 9th edition and profiles have merged. I know I'm about to see many more ridden monsters. I'm bringing 3 cannons. Because of the increased chances of encountering a flying death machine, the investment is worth the risk.

Is it completely unbeatable? Nope, just really very bloody hard. High T, high W models with high armour and a wardsave are very hard to deal with in this game (as indicated by the 240 WL attacks needed to kill the combo). Other then something like mindrazored horded spearmen with LD 10, I wouldn't put my money on a lot of things to take it down.

I think that's our best argument for this combo not being overpowered. Not everybody has cannons. Everybody has magic (well not dwarfs, but they have cannons). With double Dragons in an End Times list, or a single Dragon in a regular list, you're going to be pretty weak on magic. While I always hate going LOLMINDRAZOR for a counter, it's highly relevant. I think there are other spells out there that could help as well, either by hexing the Dragon into being ineffectual in combat, or by outright helping you kill the damned thing. Again, I'm playing devil's advocate in an attempt to see how to argue this combo wouldn't be an overpowered flying death machine. I'm not rooting against this by any means, but a game has to be fun for both sides in my book.

As for the dragon mage, a merged profile is just what the guy needs. T5, 7W, 6A @S5 and a mage would be awsome. If armour combines even more. Add dragon armour for a 1+ and then either a ward making you very durable or go starlance. 6 ASF attacks @S8, from a noble? Yes please...Rod

Completely agree here. The Dragon Mage needs a merged profile real bad. Heck, we might even see something like an Empire Amber Wizard on that beautiful double headed Griffon. With merged profiles, wizards on monsters become much more viable.

[Gandalf_82]

Interesting to see these developments. It'll be nice to have some new fluff to read that's for sure.

I hope as seems to be the case, that this is a supplement you can choose to play with the new rules, rather than a replacement of the existing 8th ed. I like the balance of armies at the moment of characters vs troops and whilst the idea of 50% lords / some massively tooled up "behemoths" going toe to toe will be fun, I wouldn't want to see the game move away completely from rank and file troops being integral to an army.

Think i'll have to pick up a copy of the new book at any rate. Although £65 for the new Nagash model, robbing barstewards!!!

[Giladis]

I just can't wait for the book to come out on Saturday to devour it and assemble and paint like a million models.

Oh my I'll never get that paper on 9th century graves done on time

[Giladis]

Artwork of what can only be Nagash summoning and death of Eltharion.

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources ... /1xlBO.jpg

[John Rainbow]

Artwork of what can only be Nagash summoning and death of Eltharion.

Death of Eltharion?

[RogueSun]

Artwork of what can only be Nagash summoning and death of Eltharion.

Death of Eltharion?

He's dead bro. Lots of characters are dead.

[Giladis]

Death of Eltharion?

Yes he tried to save the princess in Sylvania but failed and was taken out by Arkhan.



From the Spanish blog via google translate. Three more blurbs of background.

It looks like Malekith, Durthu, Tyrion and Teclis will team up and create WHFB incarnation of the fantastic four. Not to mention IMRIK is quite likely to come back into action

I am so excited...

Hello everyone! Through the folds of the Warp We have heard rumors of what comes to the Elves in the End Times.

- Thorgrim, High King of the Dwarfs, and saw him in the eyes of Tyrion, its destruction was imminent, his determination and his destiny would be fulfilled.

- Tyrion, knowing this, choked by the bitterness and prisoner and the Curse of Aenarion went with his brother Teclis who had visions of what happened and what was going to happen. They went with a large army north to the Blighted Isle. There a vast force of his cousins ​​were found Naggaroth with wounded front Malekith. The sons of Aenarion not fight this time. There was a greater enemy, as in the days of his father, wearing his race to annihilation. Emissaries Eternal Oak, Forest Elves, also arrived, shaken by visions of destruction and call ... Khaine.

- When he finished the ritual, an earthquake and a series of roars were heard throughout the celestial orb. They were demons, shuddering, his worst and most terrible enemy, had awakened him, and his former allies, the dragons flying by thousands, led by the Lord of Caledor ...

Mother! Turbulent times ahead for the Elves in the Old World, with the return, it seems, Doer of Widows and Dragons. What you think?

Greetings!

[John Rainbow]

So Eltharion bought it. And we never got a new version of Eltharion the Blind

Thanks for the info. Giladis. The fluff sounds pretty cool!

[Galharen]

Giladis, are you sure we can believe those rumours? Where does he get those info from?

Could you post a direct link to this fluff rumour?

[Giladis]

The book has been leaked somewhere in Spain > http://tozudosadieces.blogspot.com.es/

[Domine Nox]

It looks like Malekith, Durthu, Tyrion and Teclis will team up and create WHFB incarnation of the fantastic four.

You mean Guardians of the Galaxy, they even have their own Groot!

But those rumors sound interesting. I'm curious which one of them will pick up the Sword.

[RogueSun]

- When he finished the ritual, an earthquake and a series of roars were heard throughout the celestial orb. They were demons, shuddering, his worst and most terrible enemy, had awakened him, and his former allies, the dragons flying by thousands, led by the Lord of Caledor ...

Called it! Oh man am I excited! Imrik has 2 books worth of ass to kick.

[Domine Nox]

Called it! Oh man am I excited! Imrik has 2 books worth of ass to kick.

But what if the Lord of Caledor is... Caledor? Chaos broke through, so obviously the Vortex is moot. Just saying...

[RogueSun]

He wasn't really a dragon master though. He helped tame the dragons but Imrik is essentially just a dragon who messed up and became an elf instead. Plus what are you gonna do, create some gigantic model of a T3 elf? No. You're gonna make a gigantic dragon model being rode into battle by the High Prince of Caledor, that's what!

[Domine Nox]

Or a giant Dragon Riding Mage with incredible stats? Being as... all the Undead Giant Thing riding models are casters.

[RogueSun]

What is the point of that? Our mages suck in combat. Even a character mage would suck in combat. Even with a combined profile. If we get a large dragon riding mage model I won't be purchasing it. I'm sick of us having to always be the magic users who aren't even that much better at using magic than most other armies. Let's show them why elves are supposed to be some of the most skilled fighters in the warhammer world.

[Alf]

I have to agree with Domine. Make sense that the best and powerful Caledor makes a return to save the high elves, also summoning the biggest baddest dragon asleep.

[HERO]

Hello everyone! Through the folds of the Warp We have heard rumors of what comes to the Elves in the End Times.

- Thorgrim, High King of the Dwarfs, and saw him in the eyes of Tyrion, its destruction was imminent, his determination and his destiny would be fulfilled.

- Tyrion, knowing this, choked by the bitterness and prisoner and the Curse of Aenarion went with his brother Teclis who had visions of what happened and what was going to happen. They went with a large army north to the Blighted Isle. There a vast force of his cousins ​​were found Naggaroth with wounded front Malekith. The sons of Aenarion not fight this time. There was a greater enemy, as in the days of his father, wearing his race to annihilation. Emissaries Eternal Oak, Forest Elves, also arrived, shaken by visions of destruction and call ... Khaine.

- When he finished the ritual, an earthquake and a series of roars were heard throughout the celestial orb. They were demons, shuddering, his worst and most terrible enemy, had awakened him, and his former allies, the dragons flying by thousands, led by the Lord of Caledor ...

Mother! Turbulent times ahead for the Elves in the Old World, with the return, it seems, Doer of Widows and Dragons. What you think?

Greetings!

This sounds like he's trying to tell a tale instead of translating what's in the f'n book. Just sayin'.

[Curu Olannon]

Interesting rumours indeed. Keep em coming Despite the bizarre nature of the Elves allying, I like that GW is trying to change the current state of things which has been stable for far too long. Let`s hope the result turns out to be interesting!